SWTOR

[Hawkbit]

"Mynocks are chewing on the power cables!  Go kill 10 of them and report back."

[SnakeCharmer]

I like it in that the style implies the game has quick and exciting action.  Hopefully, it actually does.

I'm hoping for something more FPSish, not more press a button and eat a sammich same old same old.

They have mentioned something along the lines of a 'rage meter' that you have to build up before you can do more powerful moves.  Which sounds all sorts of blah to me.  Not only do you have to wait to learn certain skills you gotta grind in combat before you can use them!!      

[Lantyssa]

If they hold true to wanting players to take on multiple opponents then I don't think it will be too bad.  You warm up for a little bit then start unleashing the big moves on the assembled forces.

[NowhereMan]

If they're doing something like the FFXI limit break/combo system I could see being very, very tempted to play this. Also there's no huge difference between having some sort of tick counter before you can use an ability and giving the ability a set cool down period. The only difference is one means you can't launch a battle with it and it's not quite as predictable when you'll be able to use it, which means you need to pay a bit more attention to the battle rather than switching into auto-attack mode and hitting buttons in the same order at the same time in every battle. Adding comboing abilities to it is one way of making teaming up more worthwhile without just making it impossible to solo or giving massive xp bonuses to groups.

[Simond]

I like it in that the style implies the game has quick and exciting action.  Hopefully, it actually does.

I'm hoping for something more FPSish, not more press a button and eat a sammich same old same old.

So you want...twitch?

[SnakeCharmer]

That stopped being funny about 3 years ago.

But yeah, FPS?  Absolutely.  At the very least a new look to something like AoC's combat system.  But definately not press one button and done thing.

[tmp]

They have mentioned something along the lines of a 'rage meter' that you have to build up before you can do more powerful moves.  Which sounds all sorts of blah to me.  Not only do you have to wait to learn certain skills you gotta grind in combat before you can use them!!      

It sounded very much like mechanics of LotRO champion class -- basic attack skills generate 'fervour points' and strong moves use these points. The bar has 5 points total so it's pretty fast, and feels just like stringing together some free-form combo attacks.

[Morat20]

If they hold true to wanting players to take on multiple opponents then I don't think it will be too bad.  You warm up for a little bit then start unleashing the big moves on the assembled forces.

Part of the continuing appeal of CoH to me is the fact that it's balanced for you to fight small groups of equal-level mobs, rather than one-on-one with an equal mob. Gives it a bit more of the heroic feel, without actually changing anything important.

Little things like that add up, at least to me. Other PLAYERS are, supposedly, just as bad ass and heroic/villianous as me, and so it should be an equal fight -- but mooks and minions I should be able to plow through three or four at a time.

NPC bosses should be more solo. :)

[Venkman]

I like it in that the style implies the game has quick and exciting action.  Hopefully, it actually does.

I'm hoping for something more FPSish, not more press a button and eat a sammich same old same old.

So you want...twitch?

Yes.

Though I never understand the "press a button and eat/make a sandwich thing". Did that ever actually apply to a game after EQ1? I say "after EQ1" because yes, I literally did press a button (medidate) to go make a sandwich on my Magician. God I hated the mana in that game. Ended up as a Bard because of it.

[tmp]

Dev interview going pretty deep into details of the whole storytelling thing they have planned and whatnot.

Sounds interesting, and indeed somewhat different from the regular approach with every class/character going through the same rat killing motions.

[Ratman_tf]

Dev interview going pretty deep into details of the whole storytelling thing they have planned and whatnot.

Sounds interesting, and indeed somewhat different from the regular approach with every class/character going through the same rat killing motions.

So it sounds like they want to have detailed, individual story quest lines for all the classes and factions, traditional MMOG gameplay for those who don't give a shit about story quests, PvP, raiding and a blend of action and strategy in a fast paced, fun combat system.

Fetuspults?

[Triforcer]

I would  Bioware forever if they did that.  But even when creating despicable evil Sith quests, they won't involve harming or killing children.  Its one of the few lines that movies/games/etc. is still very reluctant to cross (I'm still shocked about the youngling killing in RotS- it wasn't shown, but even implying it was surprising for a PG-13 movie). 

But I am starting to get a David Allen-ish crack fantasy vibe from some of these interviews.  Their belief that they can keep single-player devotees happy forever and churn out fully-voiced, exponential-choices content at a rate that satisfies them simply isn't possible.  If you have a 100 hour story arc for the Smuggler (which I think is ludicrously high, but the devs have seemed to imply there is even MORE), some people will have completed it roughly 120 hours after release if they play the game from a toilet with a pillow on the back top part.  Then, the whines will begin. 

[UnSub]

Dev interview going pretty deep into details of the whole storytelling thing they have planned and whatnot.

Sounds interesting, and indeed somewhat different from the regular approach with every class/character going through the same rat killing motions.

So it sounds like they want to have detailed, individual story quest lines for all the classes and factions, traditional MMOG gameplay for those who don't give a shit about story quests, PvP, raiding and a blend of action and strategy in a fast paced, fun combat system.

Fetuspults?

Plus it seems like the concerns over teams griefing player decisions are well founded, given their statements that you won't be able to 'save and reload' the content and you will be fixed into those choices.

End-game content being developed my those in raider guilds?  

It's great that they are enthusiastic, but it really sounds like SWOR is going to be a massively single player game. Plus there will be walkthroughs plotting the best course for every class storyline within a month of release. And players who are there for the story won't really be the type of gamers who are there to raid.

We'll see.

[Lantyssa]

I'm getting hopeful about this game.  Someone please crush my dreams before it comes back to bite me.

[UnSub]

I'm getting hopeful about this game.  Someone please crush my dreams before it comes back to bite me.

SWOR will be full of people who like Episodes 1 - 3 more than 4 - 6. You will be asked to play with them on a constant basis.

[Triforcer]

Also, everyone will be Jedi or Sith.  Both will be given "Force Push" on a five second cooldown.  PvP will take place on a planet where everyone has to fight on ledges over lava.  Falling into the lava makes you die automatically.  

EDIT:  Forgot to mention that Jedi and Sith can spec into a PBAOE Force Push.  They all will.   

[SnakeCharmer]

Though I never understand the "press a button and eat/make a sandwich thing".

More than anything, it's an exaggeration (or at least how I use it).  I use it to describe any MMO (which is pretty much all of them these days) wherein everything is done for you:  If you hit, or if you miss.  Whether or not you are hit or evade.   Pressing a button and having a predetermined mathematical formula for my success or failure in a hit roll.  Auto targetting.  GUI mods that lead you by the hand to every quest location.  Hate or aggro meters.  All I ask is to get me more involved than that.  I posted a picture once (I think) of what percentage of the screen I actually see when I'm playing/in combat.  My focus is on cool down timers, rotating hotkeys, and state icons, with my peripheral watching whats going on around me.  And that is not fun.  It's not entertaining, it's not immersive.  Seeing some peoples raid GUI in WoW makes me cringe.

I get that a true FPS in an MMO is more than likely not possible for a while, but still...EQ combat = old SWG combat = EQ2 combat = WoW combat = WAR combat = LOTRO combat = whatever.  To me, it's basically all the same.  Holy trinity, tank and spank, blah.  I don't care if it's 1 vs 1 or 1 vs many as has been advertised for TOR.  

AoC was a step in the right direction, and in my own humble opinion the best combat design out there (casters excluded).  

But anyway...They're promising alot with TOR, with the exception of a really innovative combat design.  Sadly, I wonder though that if TOR stumbles because they find that gamers don't want an intricate storyline that they have to keep up with (and ships with a garden variety MMO combat engine), we'll likely not see anything truly innovative for a good long time.  As example, in one of the videos, a trooper tossed grenades that stunned its opponent(s), then they blast them.  Big whoop.  Stun then dps is a staple of nearly every MMO out there; doesn't matter if the presentation is different (laser gun vs finger waggling fireball shooter).

[Triforcer]

Even if MMOs could fully incorporate FPS technology with no lag on a large scale, it wouldn't necessarily mean it would be universally adopted.  As Ohlen or Ericson (can't remember which) commented in that last linked dev interview, making your game an FPS means you drive away everyone who isn't good at FPSes.  Turn-based combat gives those with intelligence and tactical ability (as opposed to monkey-on-speed reflexes) a chance to be successful.  And that's a good thing that I don't want to see MMOs lose.  FPS isn't just about the technology- using it fundamentally changes the type of game you are making. 

[Velorath]

It's great that they are enthusiastic, but it really sounds like SWOR is going to be a massively single player game. Plus there will be walkthroughs plotting the best course for every class storyline within a month of release. And players who are there for the story won't really be the type of gamers who are there to raid.

We'll see.

I'm perfectly ok with all of that.  In fact at this point, I can't think of a more ideal way to play an MMO than as a single player, story focused RPG that allows me to play with friends when I really feel like it.  I don't give a damn if 95% of the other players aren't paying attention to the story or if they're following walkthroughs.

One of the gents in the interview linked a few posts up is the Lead Designer, James Ohlen.  Ohlen was also Lead Designer on the Baldur's Gate games, and KotoR 1.  Despite schild's protests that this is not Bioware, I have enough faith in Ohlen due to his past work, that I don't doubt that he can put out a game that's at least entertaining, even if it's less an MMO and more Kotor 3 with some multiplayer options.

[gryeyes]

More than anything, it's an exaggeration (or at least how I use it).  I use it to describe any MMO (which is pretty much all of them these days) wherein everything is done for you:  If you hit, or if you miss.  Whether or not you are hit or evade.  

That describes every RPG i have ever played. That your characters skills determine your proficiency and not the players is a pretty core RPG concept. And even if you could make a FPS functional on an MMO scale i doubt many would be made. It would mean a very small amount of players would have an insurmountable advantage over the rest. How could you balance content when two characters of similar level/gear/whatever metric are vastly different in capability. RPG's give everyone regardless of physical ability a chance. Any cockblock based solely on physical ability (hand/eye coordination,reflexes etc) is going to be something unsurmountable for most players to get over.

[Velorath]

I get that a true FPS in an MMO is more than likely not possible for a while, but still...EQ combat = old SWG combat = EQ2 combat = WoW combat = WAR combat = LOTRO combat = whatever.  To me, it's basically all the same.  Holy trinity, tank and spank, blah.  I don't care if it's 1 vs 1 or 1 vs many as has been advertised for TOR.  

I don't think it's a matter of not being possible, so much as the fact that despite how the acronym gets shortened these days, we're still typically dealing with MMORPG's.  If something like APB doesn't end up being more twitch based, then there's a problem, but why would you hope for the online follow-up to a game that was built around the D20 system to take any cues from FPS games?

[SnakeCharmer]

Even if MMOs could fully incorporate FPS technology with no lag on a large scale, it wouldn't necessarily mean it would be universally adopted.  As Ohlen or Ericson (can't
remember which) commented in that last linked dev interview, making your game an FPS means you drive away everyone who isn't good at FPSes.

 

I'll be the first to admit that I suck at FPS games.  And to be honest, I don't care if it's universally adopted or not; all I care about is MY fun, and not yours or anyone elses.  Yeah, I'm probably niche market, and I've got to go with what's made (outside of magically coming into 50 million dollars and funding a studio to make my own personal wishlist of MMO stuff into reality).

Turn-based combat gives those with intelligence and tactical ability (as opposed to monkey-on-speed reflexes) a chance to be successful.

Oh what the fuck ever.  2004 is calling.  They want their 'turn based takes smerts' meme back.
There's alot more to winning in COD4 online or CS than just monkey-on-speed reflexes and hellacious hand eye coordination.  Traditional MMO combat is easy mode.  There's nothing remotely difficult about it.

It's great that they are enthusiastic, but it really sounds like SWOR is going to be a massively single player game. Plus there will be walkthroughs plotting the best course for every class storyline within a month of release. And players who are there for the story won't really be the type of gamers who are there to raid.

We'll see.

I'm perfectly ok with all of that.  In fact at this point, I can't think of a more ideal way to play an MMO than as a single player, story focused RPG that allows me to play with friends when I really feel like it.  I don't give a damn if 95% of the other players aren't paying attention to the story or if they're following walkthroughs.

One of the gents in the interview linked a few posts up is the Lead Designer, James Ohlen.  Ohlen was also Lead Designer on the Baldur's Gate games, and KotoR 1.  Despite schild's protests that this is not Bioware, I have enough faith in Ohlen due to his past work, that I don't doubt that he can put out a game that's at least entertaining, even if it's less an MMO and more Kotor 3 with some multiplayer options.

My thoughts exactly.  

I mean, if Mass Effect, Uncharted, The Force Unleashed, or whatever had a continuing updated storyline (DLC or whatever), I'd keep playing them.  If it had co-op mode, even better.  But in the end, I really don't care if I'm playing with other people, in a massive sense or otherwise.  

[SnakeCharmer]

Gah.  I hate to Sir Bruce this post, but only way I can respond:

It would mean a very small amount of players would have an insurmountable advantage over the rest.

It could be strongly argued that it's even more prevalent in traditional MMGs now than it is in FPS's.  And what it comes down to is: time.  If I don't have the time to raid/catass grind, I'm never going to catch up with you -or- get the best gear to compete with, as example, you.  You've got the epic purples from raid drops because you have the spare time, and can level a whole lot faster than I can.  I can barely log in for more than an hour or so a day.  So, I really have zero chance of ever being competitive.  Gear and levels are the ultimate cockblock to being competitive in any arena.

How could you balance content when two characters of similar level/gear/whatever metric are vastly different in capability.

Well, if you believe Triforcer, RPGers are smarter than the rest of the gaming world.  A not so bright person doesn't really have the hope of getting smarter, but they can improve their hand/eye coordination.

RPG's give everyone regardless of physical ability a chance.

Not really.  Some players never get how to play their class.  They never understand how to look a situation (or class or whatever) and know they should use b when a happens, and y when x happens.

Any cockblock based solely on physical ability (hand/eye coordination,reflexes etc) is going to be something unsurmountable for most players to get over.

And when you combine superior reflexes with tactical awareness and class knowledge, that player is not ever likely to be beat by the garden variety MMO player.  Or a not so bright player that cant figure out the strategy to taking down more than 1 mob at a time or how to play a certain raid.  So it kinda nullifies your point.  

It's not an either/or situation.  It's a combination of all things.  Both systems have their positives and negatives.  Regardless, all players aren't created equal in any mechanism.  Some are inherently better than others.  There will never be a truly equalizing experience for all players to compete at the same level.

[Triforcer]

Oh what the fuck ever.  2004 is calling.  They want their 'turn based takes smerts' meme back.
There's alot more to winning in COD4 online or CS than just monkey-on-speed reflexes and hellacious hand eye coordination.  Traditional MMO combat is easy mode.  There's nothing remotely difficult about it.

PvE is easy-mode with traditional combat, sure.  But it would also be easymode in an FPS MMO (because players need to be able to win 99% of the time against PvE mobs or they'll get frustrated).

But turn-based combat in PvP is much more mentally difficult than PvP in an FPS.  PvP in an FPS is more about muscle memory than anything- sure, you can also anticipate when and where someone is going to turn a corner, etc.  There is SOME intellect involved, but in an MMO PvP is more about setting the battlefield.  What skills are effective against this class?  When do I burn them?  How do I respond if his response shows he is a certain spec, and how do I adjust my plan accordingly?  Its a chessmatch, whereas an FPS is (mostly) about physical skill.  I don't say that as a criticism of FPSes (whichever you find most fun, please play, that's the most important) but it is what it is.  

[gryeyes]

Gah.  I hate to Sir Bruce this post, but only way I can respond:

Why ya gotta do me like that man. 

Im sure we can both agree that there is a vast difference between a cockblock based almost entirely on time invested modified by game and class knowledge and a cockblock based on the physical attributes of the player. People are not "getting smarter" in traditional RPG's when they get better they are increasing their knowledge of the game. And the tolerances for "skill" in traditional MMO's are so loose that even a shit player with lots of time will eventually become "decent".

And while one can improve their skills in a FPS some people are inherently better based solely on their physicality. The tolerances for skill are tight regardless of how much free time one has. You can improve of course or use tactics to compensate but its to a far lesser degree. I agree not all players are created equal but you really cant compare the role of skill inherent in a FPS to an RPG. One is based on the ability of your character and the other is the ability of the player. There is naturally some overlap but its a pretty blatant distinction.

[Morat20]

Technology/design for FPS doesn't scale well. I can appreciate wanting an MMOFPS -- a better countrstrike or Team Fortress or something with permanent characters and some form of gear/skill progression.

It's not terribly feasible technically -- at least not for large battles -- and you're competing with tons of free servers. And no telling how big the market is -- FPS's are popular, but if you weld them to RPG concepts that's going to turn off some portion of the playerbase.

Mostly, though, bitching that MMORPG's are MMOFPS's is kinda silly. It's like bitching your Prius doesn't have the acceleration of a Ferrari. They're built for different things, designed for different things.

Lastly, it's one thing to suck and get constantly owned on a free TF2 game or Halo Slayer. It's free, it's easy to pick up, it's easy to put down, and what the fuck does it matter (Especially if your'e smart and just play with friends, or with the mics off so you don't have to listen to morons).  It's entirely another thing to get constantly owned while you're paying 15 bucks a month for the privilage, and realizing you're never going to be able to compete with 15 year old low-ping bastards.

I don't think, right now, that you can scale a twitchy game big enough to make paying for it realistic -- and that's without burdening it with RPG concepts.

[Fordel]

Plus it seems like the concerns over teams griefing player decisions are well founded, given their statements that you won't be able to 'save and reload' the content and you will be fixed into those choices.

I can guarantee you, that any such 'permanent' system will be made non-permanent 5 mins after release. It's one of those things people love to THINK they want, but will absolutely hate in reality.

[tmp]

I can guarantee you, that any such 'permanent' system will be made non-permanent 5 mins after release. It's one of those things people love to THINK they want, but will absolutely hate in reality.

It sounds like grouping in these storyline quests is going to be optional rather than mandatory. So i'd expect to see people only grouping with friends and such when they feel like it rather than go in pick up groups because they mush. That in turn might make this sort of griefing less of a problem...

[Mrbloodworth]

Why does "FPS" automatically mean some of the fastest FPS in the market? There is more than one type of twitch based combat out there. Counterstrike being one. Quake being another. There are other "Flavors" that do not rely on simply fast paced hands. Some, are slower, more tactical (some of the Tom Clancys come to mind, so does Uncharted) with more emphasis on using cover or teams rather than the "Run and gun".

It is quite possible to make a twitch based MMO that is not simply using "run and gun" game play.

[Ratman_tf]

I'm getting hopeful about this game.  Someone please crush my dreams before it comes back to bite me.

They'll cut back on a metric fuckton of their promises as the project moves along, and come release, it'll get pruned down to a single player online game with a couple of badly balanced PvP maps and a totally uninspired raid boss in some corner of the world that no one gives a shit about.

And everything will be broken, so they'll bump up the XP grind to slow the players down while they furiously patch the game after release to make it playable.

[HaemishM]

I'm getting hopeful about this game.  Someone please crush my dreams before it comes back to bite me.

How about:

1) It's an MMO
2) It's Bioware AUSTIN
3) It's an MMO
4) Star Wars Nerds

Do you really need anymore?

[SnakeCharmer]

Damn, man.  That's just cold.

[Lantyssa]

I get that a true FPS in an MMO is more than likely not possible for a while, but still...EQ combat = old SWG combat = EQ2 combat = WoW combat = WAR combat = LOTRO combat = whatever.  To me, it's basically all the same.  Holy trinity, tank and spank, blah.  I don't care if it's 1 vs 1 or 1 vs many as has been advertised for TOR. 

I just realized something about why I liked combat in old SWG.  I was a creature handler, so my main commands were directing my pets while my own character auto-attacked and worked on positioning.  I was mostly busy telling them to come, or attack, or go attack that other thing, so I was focusing on the battle and not my cooldowns.

Totally agree with the sentiment, I just found the realization about how I compensated interesting.

[SnakeCharmer]

To be fair about SWG, however, is that most cooldowns were only one second (or less than one second?)*, and you could que up a specific series of attacks or actions.  And with buffs, there was zero downtime or worry about action/mind usage.  So, in that respect, it felt faster and more engaging than it actually was - at least IMO.  You also had a nice combat queue window that you could resize and effective watch with your peripheral vision in case your short term memory faled you.  You could resize your HAM bars (and your targets) to be easily watched with your peripheral as well. 

* I never played CH so I don't honestly know if there was attachments or whatever that could get your CH skills down to 1 second intervals.

[Cyrrex]

Speed was capped at 1 second, so nothing less than that.

Oh, being a speed capped Rifleman.  I don't expect there ever was (or ever will be) a more powerful PVE juggernaut.