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Author Topic: SWTOR  (Read 2071721 times)
schild
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Reply #700 on: April 12, 2009, 09:56:50 PM

Ours are organized and well-moderated. And VERY focused. We have very rare redundancy and shut things down as they become redundant. We also have moderator coverage 24-7 and nothing slips by them. Also, we probably only have about 1000-1500 active members, not 3,000. The rest lurk, read, or disappear. And that's good. I'd rather have only 10% of the userbase being drooling idiots than 90%. We've had some seriously terrible members come around to being awesome members. We've also had people totally flip out, and they're gone now.

Before launch, almost all your forums are going to be two things (no matter what you do): Suggestions and wankery. You've dedicated 8 of the forums to wankery. Though, really, they're all wankery considering no one in the public REALLY knows anything about how the final product will turn out. That is to say, most of the time the dev team doesn't even know how the final product will turn out (and this is particularly true of MMOGs). Sure, they can have a focus, but Things Change and Shit Hits the Fan and Shit Gets Rushed Out the Door and You're Owned by EA and WAR didn't set the best example. For the record, never ever assume I don't know exactly what is going on at any given MMOG studio. That's just naive trollbait and you know it. I've gone out of my way to make sure I have people everywhere feeding me information on nearly anything I want to know - and you know it.

As for my "use of colorful terms:" Your mistake is assuming that all those extra forums don't create more spam. Not to mention you're completely missing the point. Whether you (specifically, you, BiowarEA) have 100 forums or 1 forums, you're still going to have the same number of people. That party will still be there when you expand the forums. It's a Bioware-Labeled Star Wars game. You don't even NEED forums and that many people would still be stalking you. You're just making it harder on yourself and people that WANT to post and read but don't want to deal with all that stupidity by increasing the number of forums and focus of each forum to where they're at now.

Is there some logistical benefit to you having this many forums before the open beta? Do you have any statistical example? Because the history of MMOG forums says otherwise. Is there some benefit to having a fanfic forum or a suggestions forum? What do you think you're gaining by doing things the way you're doing them now. Do you really think that the current structure of the forums invites more people to come and chat and create a better overall atmosphere?

If you all didn't have a forum manager or any moderators and just had one forum for the game that went without watch, you'd still have this many people. But right now you're just making things harder on yourselves, the mods, and the outsiders with the current structure (that needed repeating). Personally, I think that's insane. You can do it however you want. If you *think* that somehow this is an efficient want to do pre-beta forums, more power to you. If you think there's value beyond a closed-to-response news forum for official dissemination of state business and a gen disc forum, good on you. I think you could've gotten by with those two and a single forum for guilds recruitment and discussion. Actually, I don't "think" that would work fine, I know it would. And it would make moderation a hell of a lot easier. As it stands now, you've created The Nightmare Scenario for any mod.

I'm sorry, but your presence or my presence or anyone else's presence won't change the fact that you're in charge of the forums that will be the biggest forums for a single game since WoW. Sean, you got the golden ticket - you don't think I knew that when I threw my insane post-surgery-codeine-fueled resume at Bioware? You're also inheriting what is arguably the WORST forum community since the inception of online games (SW:G). And it's only going to get bigger. And bigger. And bigger. Your top priorities should be signal:noise and streamlining the entire discussion. But right now it's just a separated mishmash of madness and iniquity that should have been moderhated down on day 1. But it wasn't. Look, I'm just trying to save you the headache you're inviting into your playground.

Remember, it is YOUR playground and you work for EA, not the players. And if the community ends up being worse than SW:G, which it is well on it's way to being, well, it won't be my head they come for, it'll be yours. Thankfully, I don't think you have anyone above you that gets forums at ALL, so you might be able to slip by with The Darkness You've Wrought. But please, by all means, create yourself a headache. The people at f13 love trainwrecks. I just like having it on record that We Saw it Coming a Mile Away.

Edit:
Quote
And outside of the fact that our game hasn't launched, how is that different from the 40 or so forums you have on this website?

Signal:Noise. I also have no performance goals, retention goals, or any goals to meet. Also, I have noone breathing down my neck or telling me how to run things. Also, I'm keeping an organized history of posts. As in, the internet never forgets. Hence the graveyard. Most importantly though, I have a moderation staff that I'm quite sure could deal with ANY number of forums I threw their way. They've been doing it for years now, as have I. The newest moderator, I think, has been on staff for well over a year now, nearly two. And the rest of them completely understand how, when, where and why to moderate.

You can't see the Den of Iniquity because you're a developer. Short of threads we outright delete (spam, etc), we have 14,000+ posts in that forum. These posts are dupes or notably shit. That's a .02% Shit Rate. You get more Shit Posts than that in a week - something I've also mentioned to certain folks (long) before today. These were completely predictable results for a Bioware Labeled SW game. Like I said, you'll NEVER have the moderation staff to deal with it, so why make it more of a headache.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2009, 10:01:56 PM by schild »
Tale
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Reply #701 on: April 12, 2009, 10:39:46 PM

Oban
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Reply #702 on: April 13, 2009, 04:06:31 AM

So the public face of this venture is going to be half sb.exe and half Tabula Rasa?

Oh wow.



« Last Edit: April 13, 2009, 04:14:00 AM by Oban »

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Hindenburg
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Itto


Reply #703 on: April 13, 2009, 04:36:42 AM

Would it be bad if I went to the TOR forums and created a link to this topic with a catchy headline like OMG DEV DISCUSSES FORUM?  why so serious?

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Triforcer
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Reply #704 on: April 13, 2009, 05:14:07 AM

I thought about it, but even I have my limits.   

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Cyrrex
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Reply #705 on: April 13, 2009, 05:27:46 AM

And outside of the fact that our game hasn't launched, how is that different from the 40 or so forums you have on this website?

For one thing, F13.net is now a live game.  I know this because of the subscription fee.  The beta was a trainwreck, but they've since patched in the fun.

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
Hawkbit
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Reply #706 on: April 13, 2009, 05:29:18 AM

It's still grindy as hell though.
rk47
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Reply #707 on: April 13, 2009, 06:39:10 AM

Would it be bad if I went to the TOR forums and created a link to this topic with a catchy headline like OMG DEV DISCUSSES FORUM?  why so serious?

wait till the game is out imo.  awesome, for real I can't wait for another WAR.

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Zane0
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Reply #708 on: April 13, 2009, 08:21:16 AM

I am afraid I must break ranks and agree wholeheartedly with the evil Bioware community dev. Discussion there is one percent insightful and ninety-nine absolute garbage, especially pre-beta, just like every major forum of this kind, and no amount of reshuffling will change this basic fact. And if the community becomes the equivalent of a fallout zone? I doubt anyone will truly care; what harm have the execrable WoW forums done, after all? This is all masturbatory; the important part is and has always been to centralize communication, particularly dev to playerbase. Anything else is gravy, so much fluff, and impossible to evaluate in quantitative terms of retention or attraction in any case. Internal feedback and a carefully groomed high rollers lounge will be where the action is. As always.

Just make a good game, please.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2009, 08:33:56 AM by Zane0 »
Sky
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Reply #709 on: April 13, 2009, 08:34:53 AM

This is getting entertaining.
AutomaticZen
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Reply #710 on: April 13, 2009, 08:35:43 AM

I am afraid I must break ranks and agree wholeheartedly with the evil Bioware community dev. Discussion there is one percent insightful and ninety-nine absolute garbage, especially pre-beta, just like every major forum of this kind, and no amount of reshuffling will change this basic fact. And if the community becomes the equivalent of a fallout zone? I doubt anyone will truly care; what harm have the execrable WoW forums done, after all? This is all masturbatory; the important part is and has always been to centralize communication, particularly dev to playerbase. Anything else is gravy, so much fluff, and impossible to evaluate in quantitative terms of retention or attraction in any case; internal feedback and a carefully groomed high rollers lounge will be where the action is.

Just make a good game, please.

Of course Blizzard just consolidated the WoW forums into class roles instead of per class, and all but said "we're not going to read class specific forums, so suck it".

I mod a forum a bit smaller than this, and we just merged forum categories as well.  It's a bit easier to skim the entire list at once instead of hope from sub-section to sub-section.  I can just go down the list: crap, crap, insightful commentary, crap, close thread, etc.
Azuredream
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Reply #711 on: April 13, 2009, 08:52:51 AM

Of course Blizzard just consolidated the WoW forums into class roles instead of per class, and all but said "we're not going to read class specific forums, so suck it".

^

I think when they started 'The Ghostcrawler Project' they saw there was no reason to sift through ten forums when it could be done with three.

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Triforcer
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Reply #712 on: April 13, 2009, 08:58:37 AM

Schild, your point about this board not having any associated game, retention goals, etc. cuts both ways.  Ashen's job isn't to vanquish idiots in an amusing manner.  SWTOR needs those idiots to pay subscription fees.  Thus, banning them with an accompanying one-liner accomplishes nothing (whereas here, it is the point of our existence).

There is almost nothing a mod of a community that size can do to make things worse this far in advance.   Nobody except the avante garde f13 brigade is going to care if a fan fiction forum exists. Pretty much the only thing they CAN do wrong is ban too freely and turn off potential core demographic, Internet-word-of-mouth spreading subscribers.  If the whole point is to build hype and you get a critical mass going and get word of mouth flowing, gaining 10 box sales in return for losing one cynic who thinks the boards are too much like the Vault is a good trade.    

All life begins with Nu and ends with Nu.  This is the truth!  This is my belief! At least for now...
Lantyssa
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Reply #713 on: April 13, 2009, 09:48:46 AM

My only question on the forums is why so soon before the game?

Having gone through this several times now, I can safely say more solid information needs to be out before starting up a game-specific forum by the company running things.  It's one thing for a fan site.  Totally another for the the official boards.  It's going to raise expectations that can never be met because you can't dispel all the speculation.

Yeah I loved the SWG boards.  Raph and the others also fed us a surprising amount of info considering.  Also CH was even better than my expectations so I didn't quit in disguist like, oh, most of the over a million people who bought boxes.

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
Malakili
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Reply #714 on: April 13, 2009, 10:07:55 AM

My only question on the forums is why so soon before the game?

Having gone through this several times now, I can safely say more solid information needs to be out before starting up a game-specific forum by the company running things.  It's one thing for a fan site.  Totally another for the the official boards.  It's going to raise expectations that can never be met because you can't dispel all the speculation.


When I get involved with game fora early on I always suffer from what I might call "interest burn out"  I'll browse the forums avidly for a week, make a lot of posts.  After that week, I realize there is no real conversation, or news about the game, stop caring, and maybe remember when the game finally come out.  I think trying to keep that interest level high as the box is hitting shelves is more important, because, I , for one, am susceptible to impulse buys, and if I am super interested in a game, I can generally be convinced to buy a copy.  However, after that initial burst of interest wears of me, and I haven't yet bought a copy, there is a good chance I never will.
Venkman
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Reply #715 on: April 13, 2009, 10:19:30 AM

My only question on the forums is why so soon before the game?

I would guess because they felt the need to funnel the community around the time they announced the game rather than announce and then later on need to re-announce in order to get people to show up to the forums.

Now, as to why they felt the need to announce as early as they did? I'm sure it was marketing. They're releasing bits and pieces of information in what looks like a timely basis as a way to set the theme apart from normal Star Wars. This is probably because we know the KOTOR world, but 90+% of the people who show up for SWTOR will not. Hence, they need a long time to set the expectations apart from both the canon and from SWG (though I really don't think a lot of effort needs to go that way. SWTOR wouldn't exist if SWG was a raging success).
Lantyssa
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Reply #716 on: April 13, 2009, 10:55:06 AM

They need more than a dribble of information leaking out otherwise it won't be about dispelling old myths as it is dispelling new ones which form from a lack of solid info.

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SnakeCharmer
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Reply #717 on: April 13, 2009, 11:01:11 AM

They do a once weekly update that usually contains some pretty cool info.  I wouldn't quanitify it is a dribble of information, just a faucet that runs ever so slightly.  It's one of the few things it seems being done right.

Then again, I'm looking at it with fanboi colored glasses, so, YMMV.
schild
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Reply #718 on: April 13, 2009, 12:14:07 PM

Schild, your point about this board not having any associated game, retention goals, etc. cuts both ways.  Ashen's job isn't to vanquish idiots in an amusing manner.  SWTOR needs those idiots to pay subscription fees.  Thus, banning them with an accompanying one-liner accomplishes nothing (whereas here, it is the point of our existence).

No one said he should vanquish in an amusing manner. No one said they should use a one liner. I don't understand where you're coming up with this shit. And if you don't think TOR is going to have enough subscribers (or people who buy things via RMT or whatever), you're fucking crazy.

Quote
There is almost nothing a mod of a community that size can do to make things worse this far in advance.

No, you're right, not a mod - but an admin? Sure. They can make a shitload of forums and not hire the people necessary to police them. 

Quote
Pretty much the only thing they CAN do wrong is ban too freely and turn off potential core demographic, Internet-word-of-mouth spreading subscribers.  If the whole point is to build hype and you get a critical mass going and get word of mouth flowing, gaining 10 box sales in return for losing one cynic who thinks the boards are too much like the Vault is a good trade.

Who said they should ban too freely? Triforcer, you're just making shit up to see your words on the screen again. Bioware would hit critical mass without forums at all yet. I'm not seeing the point in even opening them up yet, but that's just me. It seems like a whole lot of extra work without a major return.
Lum
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Reply #719 on: April 13, 2009, 01:16:09 PM

Pre-alpha forums suck by default.

Yeah. This. I'm on the second project now where we're not even going to HINT at what we're working on until people are in the game playing. Anything before that is pointless.

(Plus, given that the first project died before anyone got in the game playing, probably just as well!)
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Reply #720 on: April 13, 2009, 01:54:45 PM

There's nothing I hate more than a forum site where every single topic is in the same forum (ok maybe I hate other things more really) so I guess that would put my vote in the pro-SWTOR-guy forum org camp. I won't even pretend to know anything about the software choice.

But yeah, pre-Alpha forums suck anyway. Maybe this was a necessary evil to get the crap off the regular Bioware forums?

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schild
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Reply #721 on: April 13, 2009, 02:08:32 PM

There's nothing I hate more than a forum site where every single topic is in the same forum (ok maybe I hate other things more really) so I guess that would put my vote in the pro-SWTOR-guy forum org camp. I won't even pretend to know anything about the software choice.

And once there's reason to expand, you expand. But at a rate you can manage.

Quote
But yeah, pre-Alpha forums suck anyway. Maybe this was a necessary evil to get the crap off the regular Bioware forums?

Bioware should've seen it coming either way, so that's neither here nor there.
eldaec
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Reply #722 on: April 13, 2009, 02:28:33 PM

The reason not to give 200000 idiots room to believe they are contributing to a community discussing serious business  this early is that they will all get invested in you producing the game they are dreaming of.

You are quite obviously going to produce something from a fundamentally different genre and half of them will go into emorage in beta.

Wheras, if you leave it till you have meaningful design to share, all 200000 idiots will go 'cool, star wars', and give your game a fair look based on what you are trying to build (because at that point you can tell them what you are trying to build; right now you have no idea yourself).

True story : neither Triforcer nor Caella played SWG for any significant period.

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Lantyssa
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Reply #723 on: April 13, 2009, 02:40:03 PM

Bioware should've seen it coming either way, so that's neither here nor there.
What about Bioware AUSTIN. Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
eldaec
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Reply #724 on: April 13, 2009, 02:53:00 PM

Bioware should've seen it coming either way, so that's neither here nor there.
What about Bioware AUSTIN. Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

Nice.

"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
schild
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Reply #725 on: April 13, 2009, 02:54:54 PM

Bioware should've seen it coming either way, so that's neither here nor there.
What about Bioware AUSTIN. Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?
Nice.
Would've been if I was talking about Baustin. And not Bioware Edmonton.
Malakili
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Reply #726 on: April 13, 2009, 03:13:02 PM

Man, when I made the comment that the SWTOR forums were a clusterfuck, I didn't think the thread would explode into this.
eldaec
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Reply #727 on: April 13, 2009, 05:17:51 PM

Man, when I made the comment that the SWTOR forums were a clusterfuck, I didn't think the thread would explode into this.

Butterfly, flapping wings, tornados etc etc.

"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
Triforcer
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Reply #728 on: April 13, 2009, 05:23:04 PM

The reason not to give 200000 idiots room to believe they are contributing to a community discussing serious business  this early is that they will all get invested in you producing the game they are dreaming of.

You are quite obviously going to produce something from a fundamentally different genre and half of them will go into emorage in beta.

Wheras, if you leave it till you have meaningful design to share, all 200000 idiots will go 'cool, star wars', and give your game a fair look based on what you are trying to build (because at that point you can tell them what you are trying to build; right now you have no idea yourself).

True story : neither Triforcer nor Caella played SWG for any significant period.

That is true, actually.  But people like us were a small small minority.  I get the "people build stuff up in their head, then quit when the real game turns out differently" theory, but I don't think it really plays a significant role.  People like that, even if there isn't a pre-beta community, will get in the game the first month and quit anyway.  I still don't think what Ashen is doing is actually harming anyone, or the game.   

All life begins with Nu and ends with Nu.  This is the truth!  This is my belief! At least for now...
Fordel
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Reply #729 on: April 13, 2009, 05:23:18 PM

Man, when I made the comment that the SWTOR forums were a clusterfuck, I didn't think the thread would explode into this.


The Force is strong in this one.

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
UnSub
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Reply #730 on: April 13, 2009, 06:52:37 PM

Pre-alpha forums suck by default.

Yeah. This. I'm on the second project now where we're not even going to HINT at what we're working on until people are in the game playing. Anything before that is pointless.

(Plus, given that the first project died before anyone got in the game playing, probably just as well!)

Five gold stars on this. I love knowing what is coming out as much as anyone else, but it is pointless to try to "start a community" before the devs can even announce what is going to be in the game beyond genre standards (ie HAI GUYS, SWOR HAZ PLANETS AND CLASSES!). Hell, it's not even a community - it's a bunch of interested onlookers. And, as eldaec said, with every news announcement you run the risk of shaking more of those onlookers off when they realise your game won't be the game they are playing in their heads.

At this stage of SWOR it should have an announcements forum, an on-topic forum, an off-topic forum and a guild forum (which will be junk anyway since the vast, vast majority of guilds formed at this stage will die long before SWOR launches). If the argument is "lots of people talk about it, so it needs its own forum" I see lots of people talking about WoW - does the SWOR forums need a WoW / other MMOs forum as well?

SnakeCharmer
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Reply #731 on: April 13, 2009, 07:25:59 PM


I feel dirty.
Goreschach
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Reply #732 on: April 13, 2009, 07:29:41 PM

I get the "people build stuff up in their head, then quit when the real game turns out differently" theory, but I don't think it really plays a significant role. 

It doesn't even have to be about people quitting in emorage. Even if they don't quit, it'll just lead to more of the same kind of whining and bugfuckery that makes MMO forums such a cesspit.


I feel dirty.

Come on, show a little effort at least. If you're going to do a yo dawg at least put a yo dawg in yo yo dawg, dawg.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2009, 07:31:14 PM by Goreschach »
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Reply #733 on: April 13, 2009, 07:32:55 PM

I get the "people build stuff up in their head, then quit when the real game turns out differently" theory, but I don't think it really plays a significant role. 

It doesn't even have to be about people quitting in emorage. Even if they don't quit, it'll just lead to more of the same kind of whining and bugfuckery that makes MMO forums such a cesspit.

There appeared to be a large drop in forum participation when CoH announced they were moving from open character creation to archetype-based character creation. Certain very active forum members voiced their displeasure and went quiet. At least one major fansite had a hissy fit and shut down.

These people were all replaced within about 30 days by a bunch of new people who hadn't heard of CoH before that point.

SnakeCharmer
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Reply #734 on: April 13, 2009, 07:35:59 PM

Come on, show a little effort at least. If you're going to do a yo dawg at least put a yo dawg in yo yo dawg, dawg.

Arg.  I knew I was forgetting something.
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