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Author Topic: SWTOR  (Read 2071580 times)
Malakili
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Reply #595 on: April 02, 2009, 11:22:07 AM

You should try Warhammer Online, it's pretty good and is generally looked at as the way to do MMO gaming "right".

 why so serious?

Draegan
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Reply #596 on: April 02, 2009, 01:30:31 PM

Well in perspective, he loves playing Darkfall.. so yeah.   Ohhhhh, I see.
Sky
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Reply #597 on: April 03, 2009, 09:07:18 AM

Hartsmann.   He sucks
Are you saying Hartsman sucks? Because, you know, he doesn't. Unless sucks means turning a half-baked mmo into a solid enjoyable experience. Scott is one of the few devs I'd be killing for if I were putting up money for an mmo.

But since you seem to be barely coherent, I bet you think he sucks.
Sky
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Reply #598 on: April 03, 2009, 09:09:17 AM

The problem is that most sci-fi is even worse than Star Wars, so we're left with slim pickings.
Most sci-fi is not sci-fi.
Kovacs
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Reply #599 on: April 03, 2009, 09:39:48 AM

Hartsmann.   He sucks..
.. 2. I'd wonder if that would mean that every developer that didn't work on that title would be at best, DevX (MMOY {Tanked}) but did some decent work, or you know, Hartsmann.   

He sucks, it sucked, seems to be the universal theme and given the number of new titles being announced/pre-reviewed it seems I would have.

Are you saying Hartsman sucks? Because, you know, he doesn't. Unless sucks means turning a half-baked mmo into a solid enjoyable experience. Scott is one of the few devs I'd be killing for if I were putting up money for an mmo.

But since you seem to be barely coherent, I bet you think he sucks.

Context and Fixed.  Get over it.
Sky
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Reply #600 on: April 03, 2009, 11:03:37 AM

wat
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Reply #601 on: April 06, 2009, 08:40:34 AM

i'll bite. Sith or Jedi? Or we gonna be bounty hunters?  awesome, for real

Well, if you choose Bounty Hunters, you'll be Sith.

Did BioWare say 'meaningful character choice' somewhere in their previous ramblings? Because they didn't mean it. Pick a class and play your content, n00b.

Venkman
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Reply #602 on: April 06, 2009, 03:02:21 PM

Meaningful choice is the speed at which the rails flow beneath you  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?
Malakili
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Reply #603 on: April 06, 2009, 05:09:11 PM

Pick a class and play your content, n00b.

Don't you get it, picking a class IS the choice.  Don't doubt this team man, i have FAITH in them.
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Reply #604 on: April 06, 2009, 06:29:29 PM

Reading through that it certainly seems the Bounty Hunter dialogue choices will vary between Bad Boy / Girl With A Heart of Gold and OMG MONEY HUNGREY PSYCHO. Plus it sounds like a solo class.

Triforcer
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Reply #605 on: April 06, 2009, 06:46:59 PM

Everything I just read in that blog screams at me "THIS ISN'T A FUCKING MMO."

How can no story content be repeated or shared?  Wouldn't PvP count as shared story content?  Is there no grouping within a faction between different classes, at all?  I was glad Stormwaltz said what he said about this not being a single-player or Guild Wars/Diablo game, but my mind just keeps repeating "does not compute" when thinking about this game.

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Reply #606 on: April 06, 2009, 08:17:48 PM

Pick a class and play your content, n00b.

Don't you get it, picking a class IS the choice.  Don't doubt this team man, i have FAITH in them.

After all, it's BioWare!

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Malakili
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Reply #607 on: April 06, 2009, 08:50:14 PM

Everything I just read in that blog screams at me "THIS ISN'T A FUCKING MMO."

How can no story content be repeated or shared?  Wouldn't PvP count as shared story content?  Is there no grouping within a faction between different classes, at all?  I was glad Stormwaltz said what he said about this not being a single-player or Guild Wars/Diablo game, but my mind just keeps repeating "does not compute" when thinking about this game.

Unless "Story Content" are single player instanced questlines, this is impossible.  If "Story Content" IS single player questlines, then I'm paying monthly for a single player game.  If there is group based, repeatable "Non-Story" Content, then their whole "OMG STORY" angle is just a bunch of bologna. 

I'm a Star Wars fan, so I want this to be good, don't get me wrong.  I just don't see how this is going to be anything I'm remotely interested in.
Sky
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Reply #608 on: April 07, 2009, 08:04:40 AM

Plus it sounds like a solo class.
As I watch this game, the more I hear traditional mmo players gripe about it, the more interest I'll have :)
Merusk
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Reply #609 on: April 07, 2009, 09:08:20 AM

To put things in perspective for you though, Sky, remember you were hyped for Spore too.  ACK!

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Stormwaltz
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Reply #610 on: April 07, 2009, 09:25:29 AM

I found this article from Nick Yee interesting. Seems the most broadly appealing bits of MMORPG content are those that require the least number of players.

I'd like to think that this does not mean people like paying subscriptions for a single-player experience, so much as it means people think of MMGs as something like playing a game with friends in the room. You can do your own thing, but you run into people, help each other out, kibbitz, and keep going.

Nothing in this post represents the views of my current or previous employers.

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Merusk
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Reply #611 on: April 07, 2009, 09:28:48 AM

I found this article from Nick Yee interesting. Seems the most broadly appealing bits of MMORPG content are those that require the least number of players.

I'd like to think that this does not mean people like paying subscriptions for a single-player experience, so much as it means people think of MMGs as something like playing a game with friends in the room. You can do your own thing, but you run into people, help each other out, kibbitz, and keep going.

Your description certainly parallels with the reason *I* enjoy MMOs.  It's the interaction with other people.  If there's bits that require other people, I'm good with that, too, so long as it's not the majority of the game or the ONLY method to advance.  I'm one of those freaks who enjoys raiding for the encounters and not the loot, too, so I always think I'm an outlier on this.

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Reply #612 on: April 07, 2009, 10:01:20 AM

I found this article from Nick Yee interesting. Seems the most broadly appealing bits of MMORPG content are those that require the least number of players.

I'd like to think that this does not mean people like paying subscriptions for a single-player experience, so much as it means people think of MMGs as something like playing a game with friends in the room. You can do your own thing, but you run into people, help each other out, kibbitz, and keep going.
Throwing out solo PvP and Open PvP duels (as they are outliers in terms of games supporting them, games where they're somehow worthwhile, etc), what you've got here is a power structure. Not any sort of revealing look at how people play games. Simply put, more people are qualified for PvE. As you get into more in depth PvP and large scale PvE, you decrease your player base. It's not that more people want PvE, it's just that there isn't enough of the other stuff in presented in any sort of quantity or satisfying state. You've basically got two varieties - epeen chasing and epeen wankery. Epeen chasing being the large scale raids. Epeen wankery being large and small scale PvE. This assumes that's there's any truth to this whole Daedalus Project bullshit. Which there isn't. It's as inexact as a science can get.

Not to mention all of Yee's surveys are just fucked up as surveys. People don't know how to differentiate between small scale raids and small scale PvE. This simply isn't part of the non forum-dwelling vernacular. Small raids can be small scale PvE with a few friends, etc. Odds are those bars should be stacked on top of eachother. let's use Nebu and his small circle of friends as an example - what's the difference between them grouping up to do some casual PvE or a short raid? For most people, there simply isn't one.

As for large scale PvE and raiding, the way the content is designed locks out more players than it lets in, as you need certain class ratios and demographics to actually fill shit out.

In other words, you're impressed by something that's total bullshit. I absolutely abhor people linking to Nick's inconclusive studies, but that's an argument for another time. Simply put, I don't like them on the most base level of "people on the internet know nothing and tend to lie." It doesn't even get to the point of "People who are filling this out probably "don't get it." MMOGs aren't a case of "if you build it they will come" they're a case of "If it's accessible and fun they will come." There are games that scratch people in places they didn't know they had, but all this survey tells us is that Nick Yee is very good at coming up with graphs for faulty data. Data that is ALMOST completely unmine-able. Sure, some broad sweeping shit can be pulled from this - "People like playing with friends" and "people like fuilling out surveys" and "people like being a number" but anything else is hogwash.
Malakili
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Reply #613 on: April 07, 2009, 10:30:14 AM


Your description certainly parallels with the reason *I* enjoy MMOs.  It's the interaction with other people.  If there's bits that require other people, I'm good with that, too, so long as it's not the majority of the game or the ONLY method to advance.  I'm one of those freaks who enjoys raiding for the encounters and not the loot, too, so I always think I'm an outlier on this.

The problem is, if the majority of the player base "raided for the encounters" they'd never be able to keep people interested in the game.  After you've done the same encounter 100 times, it just isn't interesting anymore.  My point being, that they'd need to be rolling at content at an extremely fast pace in order to keep your kind of player interested in the game.

As for me, I like MMOs for their persistence.  I like the idea that there are things going on when I am not online, and I like the idea of not being the be-all and end-all protagonist.    I enjoy group play and solo play (PvE and PvP), with a preference for group play (but only if I am in a guild or other group that plays regularly is competent, I have "Pugged" any group content in an MMO in probably 2 years, and it has made my play time a lot more enjoyable). 

Its the persistence that SWTOR looks like it isn't going to do very well, even if the content is fun to play.  Its that feeling that really keeps me playing an MMO over the long haul.
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Reply #614 on: April 07, 2009, 10:47:22 AM


I'd like to think that this does not mean people like paying subscriptions for a single-player experience, so much as it means people think of MMGs as something like playing a game with friends in the room. You can do your own thing, but you run into people, help each other out, kibbitz, and keep going.

Sums up what I'm looking for. Played WoW for three years - never had a character hit 60, only ever did maybe five six instances in a group. I want a game I can play solo, interact with other people while I'm doing so, and have some common base I can bump in to my friends between runs (where I can show off my leet loot).

And I want to be able to get said leet loot without having to get a full time job/join a raiding guild.

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Sky
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Reply #615 on: April 07, 2009, 11:09:31 AM

To put things in perspective for you though, Sky, remember you were hyped for Spore too.  ACK!
Yep, and I had a progressively bad feeling as that development went on, but tried to stay positive. I expect SWTOR to be bad, so it's all good? I still think Spore could be a good game, if they had more science sandbox and less game, but apparently I'm the minority with the science and the self-directed gameplay and whatnot.

And Stormwaltz, I've been saying that for years, only to be mocked by 'go play a srpg looser!' kinda crap. There are some great alternatives for people who enjoy raiding, but solo and occasional grouping casuals are second-class citizens in them. 'You don't NEED the good loot!' Uh...huh?
amiable
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Reply #616 on: April 07, 2009, 11:14:41 AM

And I want to be able to get said leet loot without having to get a full time job/join a raiding guild.

OMG!!!  Thats the problem with people, they want everything handed to them on a silver platter.  You sir are the reason our country is failing.  You need to WORK to set yourself apart from the masses.  Why should you have access to gear that I worked hard to get?  Phsssh....  welfare epics.  (Insert bizarre Objectivist rant that quotes liberally from "Atlas Shrugged" here).
Ratman_tf
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Reply #617 on: April 07, 2009, 12:04:07 PM

And Stormwaltz, I've been saying that for years, only to be mocked by 'go play a srpg looser!' kinda crap. There are some great alternatives for people who enjoy raiding, but solo and occasional grouping casuals are second-class citizens in them. 'You don't NEED the good loot!' Uh...huh?

Well, if we're going to take the big example, I can solo all the soloable content in WoW in quest greens and blues. I don't need tier 7 raiding gear, or PvP epics to do that.
Should there be epic solo content? How would it work alongside the other content?



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AutomaticZen
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Reply #618 on: April 07, 2009, 12:13:44 PM

And Stormwaltz, I've been saying that for years, only to be mocked by 'go play a srpg looser!' kinda crap. There are some great alternatives for people who enjoy raiding, but solo and occasional grouping casuals are second-class citizens in them. 'You don't NEED the good loot!' Uh...huh?

Well, if we're going to take the big example, I can solo all the soloable content in WoW in quest greens and blues. I don't need tier 7 raiding gear, or PvP epics to do that.
Should there be epic solo content? How would it work alongside the other content?
I've always wondered this, even though I've long since left raiding of any type in WoW.  I have the best gear I could get from dungeons, and I'm fine with that.  Why do you really need more?
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Reply #619 on: April 07, 2009, 12:19:47 PM

And I want to be able to get said leet loot without having to get a full time job/join a raiding guild.

OMG!!!  Thats the problem with people, they want everything handed to them on a silver platter.  You sir are the reason our country is failing.  You need to WORK to set yourself apart from the masses.  Why should you have access to gear that I worked hard to get?  Phsssh....  welfare epics.  (Insert bizarre Objectivist rant that quotes liberally from "Atlas Shrugged" here).

WAR says hello.
amiable
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Reply #620 on: April 07, 2009, 12:20:37 PM

I've always wondered this, even though I've long since left raiding of any type in WoW.  I have the best gear I could get from dungeons, and I'm fine with that.  Why do you really need more?

Why do Raiders?  Because its an MMO and its all about advancing your character, it is literally the only thing you can do in most games.  

Why not just make Raider gear the same stats and offer them fancy graphics, that way everyone can participate in Raids?

It's a dumb system that rewards obsessive-compulsives and discourages new people to play, hence WoW has gotten progressively more friendly to groups comprising fewer players and soloers.  And they have made a killing.  Yet for some reason no one else in the industry wants to do this.  Why?
Sky
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Reply #621 on: April 07, 2009, 12:21:02 PM

Really, so not going to get into this again. I'll stfu and be happy with my scrub gear.  Ohhhhh, I see.
AutomaticZen
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Reply #622 on: April 07, 2009, 12:28:04 PM

I've always wondered this, even though I've long since left raiding of any type in WoW.  I have the best gear I could get from dungeons, and I'm fine with that.  Why do you really need more?

Why do Raiders?  Because its an MMO and its all about advancing your character, it is literally the only thing you can do in most games.  

Why not just make Raider gear the same stats and offer them fancy graphics, that way everyone can participate in Raids?
Then people would just complain you can't get the fancy graphics in solo play.  It's all e-peen, either through your VALOROUS EARTHBEATING CHESTPLATE, or the fact that you're an unstoppable killing machine because you're wearing said chestplate.

Quote
It's a dumb system that rewards obsessive-compulsives and discourages new people to play, hence WoW has gotten progressively more friendly to groups comprising fewer players and soloers.  And they have made a killing.  Yet for some reason no one else in the industry wants to do this.  Why?
And WoW is still like "hey, you don't want to play with 9-24 other people?  Enjoy your scrub gear."

I'm fine with a system wherein solo players can get equivalent gear.  But why?  Who are you e-peening too?  Your close personal friends?  It's not to the world at large because any gear you could get solo, would automatically become "welfare epics" to the hardcore players, and thus your e-peen falls on blind eyes.

This is probably a topic for another thread though.

amiable
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Reply #623 on: April 07, 2009, 12:32:35 PM

Really, so not going to get into this again. I'll stfu and be happy with my scrub gear.  Ohhhhh, I see.

No dude, I feel it, this is the thread where we all have a well-reasoned discussion and finally put the issue to rest once and for all.   awesome, for real
AutomaticZen
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Reply #624 on: April 07, 2009, 12:50:07 PM

Really, so not going to get into this again. I'll stfu and be happy with my scrub gear.  Ohhhhh, I see.

No dude, I feel it, this is the thread where we all have a well-reasoned discussion and finally put the issue to rest once and for all.   awesome, for real
The war has gone on too long.  This is the thread to end the threat.  The line will be drawn here, and no further!
Hindenburg
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Reply #625 on: April 07, 2009, 12:53:00 PM

Should there be epic solo content? How would it work alongside the other content?

Ignoring for a second that they required a 40 man raid to get the items, WoW had that. Hunter and Priest epic weapon quests. They take you along the world, and, in the hunter's case, had you use skills that you'd usually never bother to use. They were uninstanced trial and error affairs. LOTS OF FUN ON A PVP SERVER, LET ME TELL YOU!

Gave excellent loot, though.

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Salamok
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Reply #626 on: April 07, 2009, 01:06:51 PM

Epic level task specific gear should be attainable via intense soloing and/or never require more than a single group, because it is task specific it won't be epic though.  Then the raid level items should be more awesome in all situations type of stuff.  So if you are a small group type of guy you can still do everything a raid level guy can you just need to have multiple outfits to do it.
Hindenburg
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Reply #627 on: April 07, 2009, 01:20:05 PM

Epic level task specific gear should be attainable via intense soloing
Grinding is dead. Forget it.

Quote
Then the raid level items should be more awesome in all situations type of stuff.
Ohhhhh, I see.

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Venkman
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Reply #628 on: April 07, 2009, 04:46:33 PM

You don't need Raid gear unless you're Raiding. You want it a) because you know it exists; and, b) because you know it to be better. Being fine with +400 to Fire is never going to satisfy if you know you're "so close" to +450. Need here is a misnomer because technically, we don't need these games wink

The way the content is split up is fine. If people can't get Tier 12, it's because their lifestyle and choices don't allow it. That's fine. Disparity is a part of life and has always been a part of games. No one's ever played a game where everyone was absolutely equal all the time. Because no such game can exist and still be called a "game". And heck, even for someone who HAS been there and done that (for realz, not just as stated on forums), they end up moving on to the next challenge that comes along, be it a patch or a new game.

Because it's never about the gear you got but the gear you're trying to get.

Therefore, it's all about knowing your own limits.
Malakili
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Reply #629 on: April 07, 2009, 05:11:22 PM


Because it's never about the gear you got but the gear you're trying to get.


This.

Also, to me this isn't about solo content v. group content in an MMO and its relation to getting gear. To me SWTOR is about persistent world v. instanced gameplay.  Nothing I've seen about SWTOR so far leads me to believe this is going to be anything but a single player game with a co-op mode and a vs. mode..  That fine in itself, but say its an MMO and charge me 15 bucks a month, and suddenly i'm a lot less interested.
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