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Lantyssa
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Reply #210 on: December 13, 2008, 01:37:29 PM

For all the bitching about knowing how things are going to turn out, you could just not read a damn guide.

It's really that simple.

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
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Reply #211 on: December 13, 2008, 01:41:18 PM

Quote
not read a damn guide.

Impossible. We metagame because it's in our genes.

Quote
PvE content around the concept of "unknown" consequences , but it would have to be incredibly dynamic to the point that I don't think we have the technology to do it yet.

One could cheat this by having a pool of very different rewards randomly chosen at the end...
Malakili
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Reply #212 on: December 13, 2008, 01:42:14 PM

For all the bitching about knowing how things are going to turn out, you could just not read a damn guide.

It's really that simple.

It is that simple for a single player game, in a game where you are interacting with other people who might be using said guides, its not so simple.
Malakili
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Reply #213 on: December 13, 2008, 01:46:20 PM

Quote
not read a damn guide.

Impossible. We metagame because it's in our genes.

Quote
PvE content around the concept of "unknown" consequences , but it would have to be incredibly dynamic to the point that I don't think we have the technology to do it yet.

One could cheat this by having a pool of very different rewards randomly chosen at the end...


I suppose... but "you chose the dark side answer and got a new light saber" and "you chose the dark side answer and got a new <randomly generated reward that is not a lightsaber>" aren't actually really different choices. 

Perhaps I can explain better.  What I mean by consequences isn't whether or not you get shiny thing 1 or shiny thing 2, but that your choice could actually have a very NEGATIVE impact on your character.   I know that people only like happy fun times in a game, but having the ability to mess things up makes everything a lot more interesting in my opinion. 
mutantmagnet
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Reply #214 on: December 13, 2008, 02:01:29 PM

Ok I see where you are going with this. That is a more involved dynamic but my cheat can be applied. I'm not saying it's a good way of implementing it. It's just a cheap quick way since the cost and time factor gave you pause on how this could work.


From my experience long lasting negative impacts are possible iff the rule makers make it explicitly clear what the player gains and loses for making their choice. Without that knowledge many feel lots of regret because they didn't make an informed decision.

It would be the equivalent of scam if KOTR MMO didn't give you a heads up of what will happen and then the offer you the option to undo your choice for $5....




....  NDA
Fordel
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Reply #215 on: December 13, 2008, 02:11:07 PM

I eagerly await accidentally killing someones pet cat and forever incurring the wrath of the sand people, or something.  awesome, for real


I want this game to be awesome, I really do, but so far...

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
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Reply #216 on: December 13, 2008, 04:32:50 PM

For all the bitching about knowing how things are going to turn out, you could just not read a damn guide.

It's really that simple.

Who's bitching?

But anyway, there's that.  Some people don't like to be surprised; then there's people that catass race through the content not paying attention to any of it, then complain there's no content at 'end game'.  They don't care what the content is, just so long as they can get it done and claim they did it.
Malakili
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Reply #217 on: December 13, 2008, 04:36:52 PM

I eagerly await accidentally killing someones pet cat and forever incurring the wrath of the sand people, or something.  awesome, for real


I want this game to be awesome, I really do, but so far...

Hell, i'd WISH for that over the model it will end up having, which is: "Hey, here is your big moment do you choose 1) save everyone and earn light side points or 2) massacre everyone pointlessly for dark side points"
Ghambit
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Reply #218 on: December 13, 2008, 04:39:07 PM

I wonder if they will still be touting how meaningful "choices" are after a few documents are out that completely diagram every choice and what it means for your character.  Until choices affect more than just my character they will be little more than what we have now, a way to accomplish certain goals.  The choice is only dramatic if I don't know what will happen when I make it.  I can easily see a couple weeks into the game that people will be following guides for "how to choose your way to X".  They talk about this new system (much like TR did)... and perhaps it will at least cause some people to read quest chat... but I am not sure it is going to be the dramatic story-telling mechanism that they envision.

This is why my feeling that meaningful choice really comes from a player driven game.  You never REALLY know how a person is going to react.  I had exactly the same response as you, which was basically that all the stuff is going to get sorted out, made into guides, and then the only "choice" in which goal you want to do. I suppose its possible to design PvE content around the concept of "unknown" consequences , but it would have to be incredibly dynamic to the point that I don't think we have the technology to do it yet.

It exists, here's an example:  http://www.storytron.com/
Problem is, it's fairly new just as you've said.  Most games on the radar today have already been in dev. for a least a few years, so they miss out.  I actually speculated Bioware might be developing some sort of Storytron type system for SWTOR, but the more I heard interviews from them the more I saw it was nothing like a dynamic/interactive storytelling system.  And the fact is, Storytron is extremely basic in its current form, however if it had Bioware/EA's millions I'm sure it would do well.  

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Reply #219 on: December 13, 2008, 04:56:15 PM

This is why my feeling that meaningful choice really comes from a player driven game.  You never REALLY know how a person is going to react.  I had exactly the same response as you, which was basically that all the stuff is going to get sorted out, made into guides, and then the only "choice" in which goal you want to do. I suppose its possible to design PvE content around the concept of "unknown" consequences , but it would have to be incredibly dynamic to the point that I don't think we have the technology to do it yet.
How is the choice of the goal any less "meaningful" than choice of point in the story, though? One is for the min-maxing metagamer, the other is for the roleplayer. But both influence and shape existing game character, in a way that appeals to the player.

Having to pick between door 1 and 2 without knowing what's behind either isn't imo any more meaningful than making that choice with full knowledge what you're going to get. It's just different strokes for different folks, but both can fit in the same game where the knowledge of reward is entirely optional.
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Reply #220 on: December 13, 2008, 05:44:10 PM


Having to pick between door 1 and 2 without knowing what's behind either isn't imo any more meaningful than making that choice with full knowledge what you're going to get. It's just different strokes for different folks, but both can fit in the same game where the knowledge of reward is entirely optional.

I guess I do come across a little strong on topics like this.  I do tend to get defensive because the MMOs I tend to like SWG (pre "upgrade") and EVE Online tend to get the short end of the stick (though admittedly EVE is doing quite well for itself).  I think CCP has things under control, but there is always a bit of doubt that creeps in that they will change fundamental game mechanics to make their game more accessible and blow it for me.  I don't have a problem with games that I don't like existing, or hell, evening being the most popular ones, it just makes me recoil a bit when those players start trying to change the games I enjoy :).

Put succinctly, and I suppose more on topic for this thread: TOR doesn't look to me like it is going to live up to my ideal of what a star wars game should be, or even has been.
mutantmagnet
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Reply #221 on: December 14, 2008, 01:12:44 AM

or even has been.
We can thank Lucas for that. I actually find it jarring watching the differences between TOT and the Prequels. The acting, usage of music and the set pieces are just so different from each other. Let's not even go into writing, editting and direction.
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Reply #222 on: December 14, 2008, 08:12:46 AM

\ I don't have a problem with games that I don't like existing, or hell, evening being the most popular ones

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Reply #223 on: December 14, 2008, 09:07:16 AM

"Rescue kittens from trees and get a blue lightsaber" versus "kick puppies and get a red one" is still way more story choice than you'd get anywhere else. /shrug

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Reply #224 on: December 14, 2008, 09:09:26 AM

"Rescue kittens from trees and get a blue lightsaber" versus "kick puppies and get a red one" is still way more story choice than you'd get anywhere else. /shrug

I look forward to seeing how they intertwine overarching stories and RMT. I'm not saying it'll be hard, I just don't expect them to do it even remotely right. This whole thing is going to be a mess. Also, your two examples are poop.
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Reply #225 on: December 14, 2008, 09:18:05 AM

"Rescue kittens from trees and get a blue lightsaber" versus "kick puppies and get a red one" is still way more story choice than you'd get anywhere else. /shrug

I look forward to seeing how they intertwine overarching stories and RMT. I'm not saying it'll be hard, I just don't expect them to do it even remotely right. This whole thing is going to be a mess. Also, your two examples are poop.

Everyone knows Sith love puppies and hate kittens.



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Reply #226 on: December 14, 2008, 11:05:42 AM

Even if Bioware DID do the story-system "right" the fact still remains that if there's no inherent truly interactive Gameplay underneath, that most players will just scroll through the mountains of text to get at the end.  It'll be quicker to reroll another character and travel down a different arch, rather than read a book for one toon; and sadly they'll all count as "successes."  Just slightly different outcomes.  That to me doesnt make a game, it just makes fluff... and I'd rather have a singularly epic and well-written story with great voice-acting rather than a few linear walls-of-text.  Gotta be gameyness in the story.

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Reply #227 on: December 14, 2008, 01:19:49 PM

Even if Bioware DID do the story-system "right" the fact still remains that if there's no inherent truly interactive Gameplay underneath, that most players will just scroll through the mountains of text to get at the end.  It'll be quicker to reroll another character and travel down a different arch, rather than read a book for one toon; and sadly they'll all count as "successes."  Just slightly different outcomes.  That to me doesnt make a game, it just makes fluff... and I'd rather have a singularly epic and well-written story with great voice-acting rather than a few linear walls-of-text.  Gotta be gameyness in the story.
That's a cool strawman but they haven't exactly done their RPGs so far (previous KotOR included) as 'wall of text to skip', why would they start now?
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Reply #228 on: December 14, 2008, 04:10:23 PM

To take it back to the level of retard: stories have beginnings, middles and ends. Single player games allow that process to be stage managed somewhat. MMOs are desirable because (in theory) your character / the player doesn't run out of things to do, even when they've reached the end of the planned content because there are other systems there to take up the slack (which are generally either repeatable PvE that is very story light or PvP content).

The challenge SWOR faces is that regardless of how good the story is, the second you start throwing other players in the mix the devs lose that ability to control the content experience somewhat. There are a couple of ways around this - force certain play experiences to be single player, for instance - but the unofficial announcement of microtrans in this title makes me think Bioware is looking to make content release in a more episodic format, so that even if you get to max lvl your character can't finish their storyline until Bioware wants it finished. Then the next update comes along that you choose to pay for or not. In the meanwhile, you can do some meaningless PvE or meaningless PvP or meaningless crafting or whatever.

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Reply #229 on: December 14, 2008, 09:39:36 PM

I think it's more likely that they'll have a bunch of episodic narratives rather than one overarching one that you can't finish.  This is easier to charge people for (pay $10 to participate in the Battle of Fooburger!) and repeats the satisfaction of concluded narrative.  I'm thinking something like the LOTRO Intro series done many times over, with multiplayer, and somehow protected against idiots and griefers.

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Reply #230 on: December 14, 2008, 09:46:31 PM

I'm thinking something like the LOTRO Intro series done many times over, with multiplayer, and somehow protected against idiots and griefers.

So, in other words, it won't possibly work. 

P.S. I like how nobody on the Internet has bought the EA "he was misunderstood" line for even a second.  Maybe we are maturing as a community. 


All life begins with Nu and ends with Nu.  This is the truth!  This is my belief! At least for now...
Jade Falcon
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Reply #231 on: December 15, 2008, 05:27:29 AM

I'm thinking something like the LOTRO Intro series done many times over, with multiplayer, and somehow protected against idiots and griefers.

So, in other words, it won't possibly work. 

P.S. I like how nobody on the Internet has bought the EA "he was misunderstood" line for even a second.  Maybe we are maturing as a community. 



Not likely,It's just noone believes anything EA says anymore.
Venkman
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Reply #232 on: December 15, 2008, 05:46:29 AM

Thought the video looked ok. Pretty standard stuff. I think it was UnSub that mentioned the MxO feel and I agree. The videos show too much choreography for it to be twitch, but more so than the usual variety of EQ1-like combat where swings and reactions rendered have nothing to do with the buttons being pressed. It certainly looks fast, but I'm thinking queued moves and "cinematic" battles, when what I'd really would have much rather gotten was Force Unleashed.

Everything else is the same talk we've already heard. Probably AoC-style single-player front end with persistent opt-in public space PvP ala outdoor WoW PvP or WAR, though likely with MUCH more single-player than not.
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Reply #233 on: December 15, 2008, 07:13:18 AM

Thought the video looked ok. Pretty standard stuff. I think it was UnSub that mentioned the MxO feel and I agree. The videos show too much choreography for it to be twitch, but more so than the usual variety of EQ1-like combat where swings and reactions rendered have nothing to do with the buttons being pressed. It certainly looks fast, but I'm thinking queued moves and "cinematic" battles, when what I'd really would have much rather gotten was Force Unleashed.

I'll have to disagree here because of two things:
1)  Force Unleashed was garbage.  Quite literally no strategic swordplay in the game whatsoever.  Just mindless swinging with the occasional force push... especially the Wii version
2)  Jedi see everything slower, therefore trying to effectively transcribe that into a world of mere earthlings (that's us) means making it a more deliberate, tactical MxO style combat interface (an interface which was pretty cool IMO) with maybe some AoC positioning involved.  If you've ever stood and watched two really good brawlers in MxO it's a pretty beautiful thing; a neophyte would wonder "how the fuck are they doing that," while inside the battle they're simply making quick tactical decisions that manifest themselves in flashy martial arts displays.  The higher lvled the player, the flashier he/she is and the more likely to win they are (although inherent player skill does play a role).

I once scribbled a game design (for a pretty phreaky sci-fi game) that actually involved altering the internal game timer (latency) of a player relative to the gameworld as a whole.  This wouldve been dependant on his character's precognitive skill.  Strong with the force?  Your latency is less.  In THIS way you could physically simulate what it would be like to be Neo or Skywalker (people around you would see a rubber-banding effect, but to you everything would be fine).  But, for a "normal" game... the only way is making it turn-based to an extent.  And when you think of it, that's all a Jedi really is doing: "taking a turn."  The physical aspect of swinging a lightsaber doesnt exist, only the INTENT exists and it just happens... those who see their oppenent faster and intend quicker are better Jedi.

So, I really think an MxO/AoC interface could work if they do it right, but it's a fine line on how much real twitch you really need for a Jedi game IMO.  I think most people here would agree though that a normal hack 'n slash Force Unleashed style game wont last very long in the entertainment column.  It'd just devolve into random bytch-swings that wont reflect the overall theme Bioware is getting at (grandiose storytelling and action sequences).  A highly choreographed, "story in a battle" fight sequence is what Bioware is after... so their combat interface will probably reflect that. 

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Venkman
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Reply #234 on: December 15, 2008, 10:21:51 AM

I should have provided details for my Forced Unleashed comment.

On the X360, it was fun. Lightning, pick up guys, pick up objects, throw crap around, acrobatics, that sorta thing. I never got far into the game itself, but regardless, that's not the model for an MMO anyway, so irrelevant. The sword play I didn't care so much about because it wasn't the premise of the game. There's better sword games out there for reference.

From a geek standpoint, I never got the point of the sword fighting. I can hurl objects at you from all points around you so instead I'm going to see how strong/quick my l33t forc3 fighting skills are against yours'? Yea, I know it's a part of the IP, but even back in 1977 I was wondering why Han didn't just jump into the Falcon and start quadblasting Darth Vader while he was fighting Obi-Wan.

In any case, I hear ya on how this should work to feel right. I sorta think along the lines of early-DAoC Combat Styles. Mists of memory here, but they seemed to work from what I can remember about playing a Friar for a bit. If it can be that fast, but still reactive and cool looking, that could be a win.

At the very least, and just going by the videos, it looks like it could be a unique combat alternative to WoW. Which would be nice because that's where a good chunk of their early players are likely to come from (by sheer numbers alone).
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Reply #235 on: December 15, 2008, 10:33:31 AM

Maybe you don't force hurl shit at each other because the other Jedi Master will negate it.  Like when Luke wasn't even a jedi yet going against vader in empire.  He just got fucked up.
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Reply #236 on: December 15, 2008, 11:53:18 AM

Yea I know, the whole Dooku/Yoda thing, and they expanded on this in EU stuff too. But I don't a crap. It was fun smiley
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Reply #237 on: December 15, 2008, 12:10:37 PM

I don't know who mentioned LOTRO but that is the best approach I see. Alot of generic quests, and a few "epic" storyline quests to advance the story of the game.

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Reply #238 on: December 15, 2008, 01:24:12 PM

Yea, I know it's a part of the IP, but even back in 1977 I was wondering why Han didn't just jump into the Falcon and start quadblasting Darth Vader while he was fighting Obi-Wan.
Was it the first or second Dark Forces that had the good saber action? It was a bit cumbersome at first, but once you got it down, you never needed a gun again. Anyway, one of my favorite tactics was to bounce laser shots back at the enemy. It would have provided about as much distraction as Luke yelling did for Ben.

It's a geek thing imo. I spent a lot of time as a kid pretending to fight with a lightsaber. Actually being able to chop up stormtroopers with one was  DRILLING AND MANLINESS Who cares about reality?

Star Wars MMO? Eh, why bother? It's an mmo. Just put your balls in a vice and throw in the New Hope DVD.
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Reply #239 on: December 15, 2008, 01:34:58 PM

Star Wars MMO? Eh, why bother? It's an mmo. Just put your balls in a vice and throw in the New Hope DVD.

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Reply #240 on: December 15, 2008, 01:35:22 PM


It's a geek thing imo. I spent a lot of time as a kid pretending to fight with a lightsaber. Actually being able to chop up stormtroopers with one was  DRILLING AND MANLINESS Who cares about reality?


I think I've seen you
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Reply #241 on: December 15, 2008, 02:03:32 PM

Maybe you don't force hurl shit at each other because the other Jedi Master will negate it.  Like when Luke wasn't even a jedi yet going against vader in empire.  He just got fucked up.
I think if there was a guy with super-reflexes, super-speed, and super-strength waving a lightsaber rather angrily at me, I'm pretty sure 99% of my concentration would be on "Not letting that thing hit me in the face". I don't think I'd have much to spare for anything fancy with the force.

Maybe if you got into a bind or something, where you had a split second to focus without worrying about a saber through the head, you could grab something and throw it, or shove him or shoot lighting out your ass or whatever.

If I wanted to make sense of the whole thing, I'd say lightsabers were there to even the playing field between two Jedi (as well as being useful at all sorts of other things, including reflecting blaster bolts), mitigating the whole "whose stronger in the Force" thing. Unless, of course, you were some Dark Jedi Master facing off against an untrained farm boy who'd only had his glow stick a few months. THEN you could probably kick his ass one-handed while tossing random garbage at him.

Probably while laughing.
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Reply #242 on: December 15, 2008, 04:49:38 PM

Yea, I know it's a part of the IP, but even back in 1977 I was wondering why Han didn't just jump into the Falcon and start quadblasting Darth Vader while he was fighting Obi-Wan.
Was it the first or second Dark Forces that had the good saber action? It was a bit cumbersome at first, but once you got it down, you never needed a gun again. Anyway, one of my favorite tactics was to bounce laser shots back at the enemy. It would have provided about as much distraction as Luke yelling did for Ben.

Dark Forces didn't even have light sabers iirc.

I think it is Dark Forces II you are talking about.

By Jedi Knight II, you were tiresomely overpowered against anything not-Jedi.

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Reply #243 on: December 16, 2008, 02:14:44 AM

Jedi Outcast : Jedi Knight 2 has supremely better lightsaber combat than Jedi Knight: Dark Forces 2 but it wasn't until Jedi Academy: Jedi Outcast 2 : Jedi Knight 3 : Dark Forces 4 that you got the dual weilding or double bladed sabres.  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

Jedi Outcast introduced the different stances and the slow motion camera action whenever you got a killing blow in which was tediously annoying after a while but had it's moments.  I think I have a stack of screenshots from somewhere showing aliens getting decapitated, stormtroopers on their knees clutching the stumps of their severed arms and general lightsaber mutilation goodness. There was also that whole wall running thing and acrobatics which did seem a little random but every now and then was quite sweet.

I was never bothered by being so much more powerful than non-jedi/sith characters. I felt that was exactly how you were meant to feel as a jedi.  A room full of stormtroopers didn't become a "can I survive this encounter?" challenge but a "how quickly can I clear the room and can I do it without getting my shields touched?" challenge.

I still think Jedi Knight was the best of the series though, dodgy graphics or not.

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eldaec
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Reply #244 on: December 16, 2008, 04:54:13 PM

Also, Dark Forces 2 had much cooler Sith to fight than Jedi Knight 2 or Jedi Outcast 2. Plus JK2 and JO2 made you suffer through godawful jumping puzzles.


The Mara Jade expansion for DF2 was also neat. I think the difference was that DF2 was back when lucasarts was good at game design. By the time of JK2 and JO2 they had caught teh gay off of the George Lucas prequels and everything they have been involved in since has turned to shit.

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