SWTOR

[SnakeCharmer]

Oh yeah, I get that.  Probably should have clarified, but then again I didn't think anyone would care what I thought.

It was more of a "I don't get the angst anymore" kind of a remark, as in it won't affect me one way or another because I'm beyond giving a shit anymore and can't believe I ever did.  My  ZOMGSTARWARSMMOGAME  is broken.  Well, all MMOs fall into that category these days.  If it's good, I'll play it.  If it sucks, I won't.

[Merusk]

Welcome to jaded country.

(I need a .jpg for that riffing the old Marlboro ads.)

[Lucas]

And...Here is the video documentary:

http://www.swtor.com/media/vidcasts/viddoc001

[HaemishM]

Huh. The combat looks really fast and frenetic (which may or may not be a good thing) but really doesn't give me a good indication of anything.

[Nebu]

Typical MMO faire: Lots of promises and flash. 

I am interested in seeing more... that's a start.

[SnakeCharmer]

I really kinda dig it.  It does look fast, but wow...

Hrm.

They did say at one point that the control scheme / UI was going to be like using a controller in a fighting game.

Very cool.

[Vinadil]

I wonder if they will still be touting how meaningful "choices" are after a few documents are out that completely diagram every choice and what it means for your character.  Until choices affect more than just my character they will be little more than what we have now, a way to accomplish certain goals.  The choice is only dramatic if I don't know what will happen when I make it.  I can easily see a couple weeks into the game that people will be following guides for "how to choose your way to X".  They talk about this new system (much like TR did)... and perhaps it will at least cause some people to read quest chat... but I am not sure it is going to be the dramatic story-telling mechanism that they envision.

[Draegan]

Someone mention "scope of the game" and "more content than all other games combined".   

We'll see, game looks cool though.  It'll all come down to how it plays and feels of course.

[EWSpider]

"...these are real choices that are going to make a real impact on the story and where the narrative goes that you have to live with forever..."

WTB Choice Respec, PST!

[Ghambit]

I'd bet they end up scrapping the Storytelling aspect mid-development in favor of a more polished, solid traditional MMO (and after they realize they cant meet their deadlines).  Honestly though, does anyone here even look at the storytelling thing as a really "cant wait to try it" game feature?  I dont.  It's linear.  It's a thicker CYOA novel.  booooring.  I hope they just leave it out unless they get educated and develop a truly dynamic story system, then I'd say go for it.  But for now, I'm pretty sure they're gonna scrap it (just like Tabula Rasa did).

[Nebu]

Story = great for a single player RPG, not so much for an MMO

Give players tools to compete and have conflict with eachother.  That's what this universe is about.

[Zzulo]

If the combat system they are working on is fast and fun and less mechanical than in most MMO's, I'll be real interested in this

[SnakeCharmer]

I'd agree with that wholeheartedly.

I really am tired of looking at 5 different toolbars and watching timers, cooldowns, and an action/mana pool rather than watching the action. 

[Triforcer]

If the combat system they are working on is fast and fun and less mechanical than in most MMO's, I'll be real interested in this

Check out the video documentary that just went up on the main site.  Very encouraging for lightsaber combat, at least (although not much foot movement from the combatants, which isn't necessarily bad- if you can gain a slight advantage from doing triple backflips every two seconds during every fight, the whole game would be ADHD spaz monkey circle-strafing). 

[UnSub]

Are you all kidding me? Those characters didn't move from the place they were fixed on the floor at all. I was getting MxO flashbacks.

So, all of those special attacks could have come from hitting the right button between auto attacks. Not saying they did, but I expected a more jaded reaction here to that video.

[Llyse]

Are you all kidding me? Those characters didn't move from the place they were fixed on the floor at all. I was getting MxO flashbacks.

So, all of those special attacks could have come from hitting the right button between auto attacks. Not saying they did, but I expected a more jaded reaction here to that video.

What Unsub said.

This has been already said but every decision making an impact is going to suck initially with people clamouring for wowhead/thottbot.

That said it still looks enticing... 

[FatuousTwat]

It being in the StarWars universe means nothing.

It's gonna be shit.

[Triforcer]

Well, at the very least, the lightsabers were hitting each other, not just waving in the air in the general direction of the enemy as big white numbers popped up.  That alone is an advancement from any MMO with swordfighting that we've seen.

EDIT:  Overall, I haven't seen anything yet that would take this game off my long-term fanboi list.  I am still concerned that its going to be more like Diablo (single-player with co-op) then a true MMO- they still haven't explained to my satisfaction how you can have such an individual story, AND share a common world with thousands of others.   So, I'm still pro-SWTOR until we hear its a superinstanced Guild Wars. 

[Falwell]

I'd bet they end up scrapping the Storytelling aspect mid-development in favor of a more polished, solid traditional MMO (and after they realize they cant meet their deadlines).  Honestly though, does anyone here even look at the storytelling thing as a really "cant wait to try it" game feature?  I dont.  It's linear.  It's a thicker CYOA novel.  booooring.  I hope they just leave it out unless they get educated and develop a truly dynamic story system, then I'd say go for it.  But for now, I'm pretty sure they're gonna scrap it (just like Tabula Rasa did).

I'm gonna call just the opposite on this. Simply because Bioware has done it before..

Great story, lukewarm combat on a good day, inventory system that causes migraines.

[Velorath]

Story = great for a single player RPG, not so much for an MMO

Only because nobody has ever done a good job of it before.

[Soln]

Expect a Beta Q4 2009 -- or sometime in 2009.  Yup.  EA needs this. 

[Sophismata]

I don't think I agree with all the EA hate - people say EA rushed WAR out the door, but the way it looks to me, WAR was never going to be a decent game the way it was (and is) being handled, and better to throw it to the wolves sooner than later.

Note that Microsoft did the same thing, as I recall. I don't think people give publishers enough credit these days...

[WindupAtheist]

Meaningful story choices aren't bad. I mean you either minmax it or not, but that's the case with anything. Minmaxers can look at big charts of what stuff to do, other people can just do whatever grabs them.

[Triforcer]

Meaningful story choices aren't bad. I mean you either minmax it or not, but that's the case with anything. Minmaxers can look at big charts of what stuff to do, other people can just do whatever grabs them.

...except that people /ragequited over making the "wrong" choice between goblin and gnome engineering (in the first couple years, before you could respec).  Either people can respec anything important at the end anyway (in which case the "meaningful" choices aren't that meaningful) or someone is going to put in 200 hours and find out they can't have their favorite (uber for pvp) companion because of picking an incorrect dialogue choice 50 hours back.   People don't WANT permanent choices in an MMO.  The potential cost of a do-over is too high.

[Lantyssa]

And some people quit out of boredom because nothing they do has any meaning...

It is going to come down to a lot of different factors.  If the stories are solid and the game enjoyable, then I think most people can get past a couple of disappointing choices.

[Vinadil]

It is all about the opportunity cost.  And, I suppose if the gameplay is interesting enough you might actually get some good replayability with all of the different "choice lines".  It sucks for people like me who hate alts.  Still, "choices" seem to be a nicer way of saying "factions".  You make a choice and certain people like you better, opening up new content while other people like you less, closing off certain content.  None of it has any effect on the world you live in... so it is very much like a single-player game inside a multi-player world... ala WoW.  Can't really argue with its success, but it is not some new awesome system.

As others have said, we have the whole "make the wrong choice and suffer the unchangeable consequences" thing going on in real life, most people don't want that to be the case in their games too.

[tmp]

I wonder if they will still be touting how meaningful "choices" are after a few documents are out that completely diagram every choice and what it means for your character.  Until choices affect more than just my character they will be little more than what we have now, a way to accomplish certain goals.  The choice is only dramatic if I don't know what will happen when I make it.

It's Star Wars. You only ever get two choices there -- be evil, cackling asshole and get dark side points, or don't be evil asshole and get light side points. So you always have pretty good idea what will happen when you make your choice, but that doesn't remove the drama from the choice itself, imo.

[tmp]

People don't WANT permanent choices in an MMO.  The potential cost of a do-over is too high.

You can't respec the horde troll into alliance gnome. I don't think there's really many people ragequitting over that.

[Triforcer]

People don't WANT permanent choices in an MMO.  The potential cost of a do-over is too high.

You can't respec the horde troll into alliance gnome. I don't think there's really many people ragequitting over that.

THat's hardcoded from the moment of character creation.  People, from the first MMO onward, really don't expect to be able to change race (and if the KNOW general faction is hardcoded going in, they aren't angry).  But people have gotten used to thinking that any options theoretically available to a created character will never be permanently off-limits to that character.  Changing that balance will upset a lot of people.  Hell, if it takes 200 hours to max a character and I took paths that left me grossly underpowered (with no way to rectify that) I would be angry.

[trias_e]

One thing they can certainly make use of is factions.  This way what you do will certainly effect how you play at the end game, but not irrevocably.

However, permanent character choices are in some sense just another balance issue.  It's actually fairly similar to starting as a class as a noob to the game.  You don't know how the class is going to play out at higher levels, what options will be available to you, and what will be restricted to you.  And in balancing some things may change out of your control as well.

There is one difference though, in that these choices will be pervasive over the course of your gameplay experience, rather than just at character creation.  And there will be more choices to balance, and more things to piss the players off if choices are really a big deal.

[tmp]

THat's hardcoded from the moment of character creation. People, from the first MMO onward, really don't expect to be able to change race (and if the KNOW general faction is hardcoded going in, they aren't angry).

Yus, but nevertheless it is a handful of permanent choices made about the character. And if KNOWING the choice is permanent is enough to remove the anger then can't that work as well for the same kind of choice made at some point down the road? If i recall right, it is a route already taken by quite a few of Korean MMOs -- they have the player start as generic 'noob' class and then give them progressively specialized choice of what they want to become in the end. Now granted, these MMOs aren't usually pinnacle of user-friendly and casual design, but this particular aspect of them doesn't seem to be brought up as example of what makes them more annoying than the average western MMO...

Hell, if it takes 200 hours to max a character and I took paths that left me grossly underpowered (with no way to rectify that) I would be angry.

You can currently make the choice at character creation that after 200 hours leaves you with realization you picked a class that (relatively) sucks ass. (since many abilities are introduced at late part of character advancement, it can be impossible to immediately realize the mistake) So really not sure if having this choice over the course of these 200 hours rather than in the very beginning... is somehow making it worse or for that matter any different.

edit: also, if the argument is 'permanent choices are bad because i can screw myself up making them' then i don't think it's argument against permanent choices per se, but rather against shoddy balancing and bad design. After all ideally you shouldn't be able to screw yourself up no matter what path you take, each should lead to viable (but different) end result.

[mutantmagnet]

Well, at the very least, the lightsabers were hitting each other, not just waving in the air in the general direction of the enemy as big white numbers popped up.  That alone is an advancement from any MMO with swordfighting that we've seen.

*COUGHS*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfjxSkYDR4g

People don't WANT permanent choices in an MMO.  The potential cost of a do-over is too high.

Forget about MMOs. I played a strategy/rpg hybrid where goals were defined by achieving objectives in a set period of time. People forced the dev to change the game's direction because people were pissed when they realized being inconsistently good or evil left you with combat units that were too difficult to synergize with each other.

[SnakeCharmer]

The problem that they are going to battle is perception; whether real or not.  As long as some players feel like they *possibly* made the wrong choice in their storyline, the angst will flow.  It won't matter if it's a quest reward or storyline or whatever. 

But give it 3 months, and there will be quest/storyline trees with every conceivable path posted somewhere on the net.

[Velorath]

I am still concerned that its going to be more like Diablo (single-player with co-op) then a true MMO

I'm not exactly sure why that would be a bad thing.

[Malakili]

I wonder if they will still be touting how meaningful "choices" are after a few documents are out that completely diagram every choice and what it means for your character.  Until choices affect more than just my character they will be little more than what we have now, a way to accomplish certain goals.  The choice is only dramatic if I don't know what will happen when I make it.  I can easily see a couple weeks into the game that people will be following guides for "how to choose your way to X".  They talk about this new system (much like TR did)... and perhaps it will at least cause some people to read quest chat... but I am not sure it is going to be the dramatic story-telling mechanism that they envision.

This is why my feeling that meaningful choice really comes from a player driven game.  You never REALLY know how a person is going to react.  I had exactly the same response as you, which was basically that all the stuff is going to get sorted out, made into guides, and then the only "choice" in which goal you want to do. I suppose its possible to design PvE content around the concept of "unknown" consequences , but it would have to be incredibly dynamic to the point that I don't think we have the technology to do it yet.