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f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  The Gaming Graveyard  |  Star Wars: The Old Republic  |  Topic: SWTOR 0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.
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Venkman
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Reply #105 on: October 28, 2008, 07:43:35 AM

Agreed. If players want storyline that means they want a unqiue place in the world. But for that place to matter there has to be some consequence to the choice. Otherwise you're just waiting for WoW to steal back your players.

Faction/Reputation is a good way to do that, something that's been devolved even before EQ1's shallow implementation of the "Air of..." from Ultima IV.

But considering how much whining there was on the most recent Scourge Invasion in WoW, I highly suspect any amount of game-changing consequence woudl only be met by derision. And /angryquits.
Ghambit
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Reply #106 on: October 28, 2008, 08:14:04 AM

I still don't get what the fuss is.  Stylized TF2-style graphics don't really age in the way we normally think of graphics aging.  This is one thing that WoW nailed.  Photorealistic stuff ages badly because there is always better photorealistic stuff the next year. 

Stylized photorealism is where we should be going with gaming.  The two arent mutually exclusive.  Why is it that people seem to think they can only have one or the other?  Art and Tech CAN be used simultaneously.  Matter of fact, Bioware made a good example of this with Bioshock.

So please can we stop it with the photorealism vs. style argument.  Photorealism will ALWAYS be a better pallette to work from (unless your game demands anime), and original style makes the best brush strokes.

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Ghambit
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Reply #107 on: October 28, 2008, 08:26:00 AM

Quote
I still don't get what the fuss is.  Stylized TF2-style graphics don't really age in the way we normally think of graphics aging.  This is one thing that WoW nailed.  Photorealistic stuff ages badly because there is always better photorealistic stuff the next year.

Agreed, any game you want people to play for years to come should go this route in the first place, for an MMORPG it should be a no-brainer.


I remember having a conversation about the personal story-based MMORPG a long time ago, I believe on this site.  It seems to just be a tragic concept.  Either you make the storyline meaningless to the character development and no one will give a shit about it, or you make the storyline matter in development and end up with a bunch of characters who are pissed about how their character turned out and have to re-roll to make the 'correct' choices.  You can't let people switch at will, because again, the story doesn't matter at that point.

Honestly, the only way I could sort of see getting around this is a faction based end game where the choices you made during the story-line aren't permanent, but just push you to certain directions of gameplay.  Even there it's likely that in the end game people would view this as a inconvenience instead of a benefit, unless you push some seriously incredible evolving RP/story angle really well and make people feel involved in whatever faction they find themselves.  God, even that sounds idealistic as hell.

What's ironic in all of this is that SWOR will ultimately have LESS of a story than sandbox-SWG.  When you dont give the players control over the story, the gameplay eventually fizzles out.  Regardless of the choices Biolucas gives you with storyline, it's still just one bloated choose-your-own-adventure game.  REAL story-based game theory is more based on Mad Libs than anything else.  Make an infinitely flexible framework and let the players evolve it themselves.

For Star Wars, just add the pew pew, ships, and the "hhoe-pers" and you're good to go.

Lastly, any story-based Loot-oriented SW done during KOTOR (while being a Jedi) will ultimately fail because lets face it... Jedis arent too keen on LOOT.  So using the WoW motto of phat lootz till you die isnt going to work here.  I'd be willing to say Bioware should be "mindful" of adding enough flexibility into their title, because it's not like Jedi run around space collecting things... or even really improving/adding to their skillset much.  Hell, what is it?  They swing a sword, move things, and shoot lightning...  and run fast sometimes.  That's it.

What they need here is a story-based sandbox action space shooter.

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Tarami
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Reply #108 on: October 28, 2008, 08:29:27 AM

I still don't get what the fuss is.  Stylized TF2-style graphics don't really age in the way we normally think of graphics aging.  This is one thing that WoW nailed.  Photorealistic stuff ages badly because there is always better photorealistic stuff the next year. 

Matter of fact, Bioware Irrational made a good example of this with Bioshock.
FIFY. And I humbly disagree, Bioshock looked like low-resolution turd. The art concept was great, but the execution was weak.

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Dexter
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Reply #109 on: October 28, 2008, 09:41:11 AM

Video of the PR presentation btw.:
http://www.videogaming247.com/2008/10/27/star-wars-the-old-republic-the-entire-reveal-presentation-in-video/

And here's a small guess on what features they're probably still considering:
http://www.ahazi.org/forums/showpost.php?p=165362&postcount=1

A storybased MMO might actually work if they don't overdo it and dip&throw a few story-elements and cutscenes here and there instead of instancing half the game...
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Reply #110 on: October 28, 2008, 09:58:44 AM

Photorealism will ALWAYS be a better pallette to work from (unless your game demands anime), and original style makes the best brush strokes.
Better for what? Considering it increases hardware requirements, demands more processing power, much more detailed coontent *and* makes immersion much harder to achieve (the uncanny valley effect) ... there actually seems to be very little incentive to go that route, when you think of it.

And speaking of pallette, photorealism is typically brown with some green thrown in the mix. Is why even movies nowadays stylize the hell out of that photorealism whenever they can.
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Reply #111 on: October 28, 2008, 10:17:40 AM

Still doesn't explain how screenshots were ever released with lightsabers the size of a bantha.

But oversized weapons make you feel powerful.

... and aren't compensating for anything at all.

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Reply #112 on: October 28, 2008, 01:21:28 PM

I've said before that I don't really want a world, I want a game pretending to be a world. This super-instanced Guild Wars shit doesn't even do an adequate job of pretending.

What is going on, this is like the 5th time this month I've read a WUA post and thought... "Right on."     Bizarro world? :)

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Reply #113 on: October 28, 2008, 01:25:22 PM

telling a great story through a persistent world, hmm the fail is coming.
SnakeCharmer
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Reply #114 on: October 28, 2008, 01:45:22 PM

telling a great story through a persistent world, hmm the fail is coming.

Depends on how much of the 'world' is persistent.  Main trading and social hubs where the world never really (and doesn't have to) changes?  Sure. 

But when the main story line locations and times are wholly dependent on how far each person has progressed on their story / level are completely instanced?  Maybe not SO much.

This ain't your normal MMO inbound, folks.  Unless you count global chat.
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Reply #115 on: October 28, 2008, 01:49:23 PM

This ain't your normal MMO inbound, folks. 

HAHAHA. Can we bronze this?

-Rasix
SnakeCharmer
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Reply #116 on: October 28, 2008, 01:50:53 PM

I hope the implication wasn't there that I thought it would be a good one, friendo.

If so, I sincerely apologize.

Edit: Clarity.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2008, 01:52:47 PM by SnakeCharmer »
Venkman
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Reply #117 on: October 28, 2008, 04:50:54 PM

But when the main story line locations and times are wholly dependent on how far each person has progressed on their story / level are completely instanced?  Maybe not SO much.

We'll see. I'd like to believe they don't make the same mistake LoTRO did where so many more-than-WoW quests had such wierd quest-step disparity issues.
SnakeCharmer
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Reply #118 on: October 28, 2008, 05:13:38 PM

But when the main story line locations and times are wholly dependent on how far each person has progressed on their story / level are completely instanced?  Maybe not SO much.

We'll see. I'd like to believe they don't make the same mistake LoTRO did where so many more-than-WoW quests had such wierd quest-step disparity issues.

I dunno.  I don't think it's a number of quests thing.  I only played the trial for a couple days for LOTRO so I'm not all that familiar with it. 

The feeling I get for SW:TOR is that as your character progresses, your world changes, but doesn't change for anyone else.  They only see the changes if they group with you and (temporarily) become part of YOUR timeline.  And you don't necessarily need them (other players) because of your companions (a la Mass Effect) that you chose between missions (or at any given time that you return to the Normandy, if memory serves).  The parts that don't change are social centers.  In a round about way, that's fine with me since I prefer solo PvE, but love some group PvP.

The whole consequences matter meme is something that bothers me as well.  If it's a single player game, I can replay from the beginning to that point of proverbial no return in fair record time - or save right before hand.  An MMO?  Not so much.  I don't want to think I've wasted 100 hours because I took the wrong path; whether real or perceived (which, honestly, is there any difference?).

I'm not keen on the art direction, I'm not keen on the graphics approach (better computer only gets better fps, otherwise the game will look the same on a garden variety budget rig as it does a tricked out quad core SLI power rig), and other stuff.  It's really a game not for me, in that I'm just too damn old.
WindupAtheist
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Reply #119 on: October 28, 2008, 08:52:06 PM

What is going on, this is like the 5th time this month I've read a WUA post and thought... "Right on."     Bizarro world? :)

We need a good Trammel thread to dredge up the old animosity, but anymore I don't even have it in me. I blame WoW. Everyone plays it, everyone does as much PVP as they do or don't feel like, and even the biggest carebear does a little sport PVP on the side.

But seriously, if KOTORO (fuck it, I'm calling it that) instances all or most of it's zones, that's a total deal-breaker. If I want something like that, Diablo 3 will be out by then, with no subscription fee and gameplay/loot that's virtually guaranteed to be 1000% more fun.

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Reply #120 on: October 29, 2008, 01:05:51 AM

I've always thought that the solution to the whole 'global consequences of your actions' thing is radically small server sizes.  I.e. 100-200 people max, with hundreds of servers.  Gives people much more of an opportunity to shape their environment.
Koyasha
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Reply #121 on: October 29, 2008, 01:20:09 AM

The feeling I get for SW:TOR is that as your character progresses, your world changes, but doesn't change for anyone else.  They only see the changes if they group with you and (temporarily) become part of YOUR timeline.
WoW is already doing this with their new 'phasing' setup in Lich King, except (rather shortsightedly) they have not (to my knowledge) included any way to bring others into 'your' timeline.  So if I want to help a guildie on a phased quest because we just feel like playing together (the quests are supposedly designed to be soloable if necessary, but whether they NEED the help or not is irrelevant) I can't.  I'm forbidden from playing with them because I'm not on the same step of the phased quest.

Either way, it is an interesting implementation and if they are indeed planning something like this for the Old Republic, I'll be at least interested to see how well it handles and whether it's extremely jarring or not.  It's not as though we don't already have a complete lack of immersion as far as mobs respawning, dungeons respawning, etc, goes in all current games.

I've always thought that the solution to the whole 'global consequences of your actions' thing is radically small server sizes.  I.e. 100-200 people max, with hundreds of servers.  Gives people much more of an opportunity to shape their environment.
That sounds basically like NWN, just with professionally managed small servers all run by one company. Some of the better and longer lasting NWN servers have had exactly this.  The DM and world builders react to the actions of the players in the world, changing the zones as necessary.  Thing is I'm not sure such a thing would work on a large scale because every single one of those hundreds of servers would require a dedicated and personal staff of at least a few people to react to and implement the changes the players make.

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Triforcer
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Reply #122 on: October 29, 2008, 03:33:31 AM

All of the "world changing" in SWTOR (horrible, horrible name btw, I pronounce it sweater in my head) will be of 2 varieties:

1)  Offline Tortage stuff, and
2)  In-game (i.e., multiplayer) limitations on powers/loot based on your choices.

I disagree with #1 making up a large part of an MMO, but #2 has its problems as well.  Here are the possible scenarios (for the Jedi class, just to pick one):

(1)  Your (irreversible) in-game choices mean that at endgame your Jedi has Force Heal, but can never get Force Lightning.  Response:  "Wtf, I have to reroll to get out of this gimp power to get the awesome IWin Lightning??  I quit!"

(2)  Your (completely reversible) in-game choices mean that at endgame, you can "respec" to Dark Jedi by grinding Jedi Master NPCs for a few hours to get the powers you want.  All story becomes totally meaningless, because all your choices can be wiped out easily in the end.

(3)  Your storyline/choices has no effect on your powers or equipment.   The story stuff is thus completely meaningless.


The game will start out as 1, move to 2 within two months (because the first people hit high level) (except with a horrible horrible grind to change) and a few months after that changes to total insta-respeccing.   Hell, even the ability to permanently lose a certain companion ("wtf, I clicked on the wrong dialogue option BECAUSE OF LAG!1!! and lost my Dashade forever, I'm permagimped against Jedi now /ragequit!") will monumentally piss people off.

People like to think that their characters (even if, by definition, limited to their own class skills) can always theoretically have any option open to them- i.e., no way to permanently ruin a faction, switching from gnomish to goblin engineering, etc.  SWTOR will launch with permanent choices, but very quickly dispose of them.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2008, 03:42:16 AM by Triforcer »

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Reply #123 on: October 29, 2008, 07:03:10 AM

This looks hauntingly familiar to what Bioware's SWOTOR team has said so far about story driven classes;

 http://www.gamebanshee.com/previews/dragonage1.php

and

http://www.gamebanshee.com/interviews/dragonageorigins1.php

Quotes of note, Dan in this case is Dan Tudge Project Director/Executive Producer Dragon Age: Origins

Quote
Dan: The Origin Stories are one of the defining features of the game. Your choice of Origin Story not only determines how and where your adventure begins, but defines how the world sees you and how you see the world.

Quote
Dan: We wanted Dragon Age: Origins to immerse the player in a rich story that really made them feel that it was their own unique story, and that their decisions had a meaningful impact on how the story unfolded.


Quote
“For the first time, you choose how your character’s story begins and that choice changes how your story unfolds. From a grim barbarian wanderer who is the last of his kind, to an exiled dwarven prince betrayed by his brother; each of the many 'origin' stories spins its own heroic tale of intrigue and romance.

Each origin story completely changes the setting and events of the game's first chapter and unlocks different storylines, villains, romances and items throughout the course of the game.


Looks like DA:O will give a lot of insight in what SWOTOR has in store.

Venkman
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Reply #124 on: October 29, 2008, 01:57:47 PM

But when the main story line locations and times are wholly dependent on how far each person has progressed on their story / level are completely instanced?  Maybe not SO much.

We'll see. I'd like to believe they don't make the same mistake LoTRO did where so many more-than-WoW quests had such wierd quest-step disparity issues.

I dunno.  I don't think it's a number of quests thing.  I only played the trial for a couple days for LOTRO so I'm not all that familiar with it. 

It wasn't so much a quantity thing as a style thing. Do you remember that Darkshire quest in WoW where it was like 14 steps or something through a fairly interesting story line? There's a few quest series like that in WoW but the game is largely one to three quest steps and that's about it.

LoTRO, at least from what I remember into the late-20s, had many many more quest-series. It made perfect sense for the world and the lore, but it made it harder for people to help each other in a situation that was concurrently mutually beneficial. It usually was a lot more one person helping another and then vice versa, thus doubling the time and repeating the content over and over. It drove a wedge between those who quested together anyway and those who soloed but needed the occasional help that, at least at launch, was a bit harder to find because nothing lined up.

Ideally, the Origin Stories stuff in Swatter is more like AC1 monthly quest/content/world updates after a single-player Tortage type front end. I can't see them completely relying on the personal stories for all players all the time because while one branching story-arc and side missions works well in a single-player game, it becomes really unwieldy and crazy expensive in a game with multiple classes. Unless you dumb down the quests such that the "choice" is merely between the red or the white sauce.
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Reply #125 on: October 30, 2008, 12:11:31 AM

The reason this single player -> multiplayer shit about SWTOR is the discussion of the week is due to two reasons, well OK, three.

1. Bioware excels at making single player games, so Edmonton is probably forcing that part. It's largely a terrible design, whether or not they succeed. If I want to have an amazing storyline where I'm the hero, I'll play a single player game designed as a single player game. Nothing is worst than a single player game dropped into an MMOG design paradigm (Oblivion, I'm looking at you, /snore).

2. Bioware Austin simply doesn't know better, which is inexcusable. Someone needs to be in the goddamn room and say "This is stupid" - of course, no one has been at Mythic telling Mark that his latest roundup of ideas is dumb as bricks so I can't understand why I would think someone might be at another EA studio. Once again, even if they succeed on this single player stuff, it's still stupid. If you want to make a single player game, just f'ing make one.

3. Nobody at Bioware Austin knows how to make an MMOG.

See what I did there? /chortle.

Edit: Also, game is still so unbelievably ugly that they're already fighting an uphill battle. They really should not have shown anything yet and just shown a logo or something.

At the same time, none of that matters. The box is going to say BiowareEA. Not "The Team That Brought you Games You've Already been Pissed off about" or "From the guys who wanted WoW's sloppy seconds."
Triforcer
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Reply #126 on: October 30, 2008, 12:19:47 AM

I suddenly realized why they didn't call this KOTORO.  If it goes the way of the NGE, it least it doesn't poison the name of the franchise.

Yeah, its obvious, but I'm naive in some ways. 

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Reply #127 on: October 30, 2008, 01:03:27 AM


2. Bioware Austin simply doesn't know better, which is inexcusable. Someone needs to be in the goddamn room and say "This is stupid" - of course, no one has been at Mythic telling Mark that his latest roundup of ideas is dumb as bricks so I can't understand why I would think someone might be at another EA studio. Once again, even if they succeed on this single player stuff, it's still stupid. If you want to make a single player game, just f'ing make one.


Although I disagree with the graphics hate, this is the single most correct thing you've ever said in the MMO forum.  At some point, this game will either become full Diablo co-op, or someone at EA will sit down with them and say "Look, MMO-wise, this is retarded."  I'm betting the latter happens, probably late enough to delay the game 18-24 months. 

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Reply #128 on: October 30, 2008, 09:41:17 AM

Nobody wants to make single player games. They're too easy to pirate and don't bring in monthly bucks.  Business-wise it's smarter to just create one, add in network support to be "of those MMO-thingys", lop off all the support staff and limp along collecting $15-$20 from idiots who don't realize they're now paying $100 for a game they used to pay $50 for.

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Reply #129 on: October 30, 2008, 09:44:09 AM

Nobody wants to make single player games. They're too easy to pirate and don't bring in monthly bucks.  Business-wise it's smarter to just create one, add in network support to be "of those MMO-thingys", lop off all the support staff and limp along collecting $15-$20 from idiots who don't realize they're now paying $100 for a game they used to pay $50 for.

Well, duh. I was speaking purely from a design standpoint in relation to the company involved and the people making the game.
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Reply #130 on: October 30, 2008, 12:21:18 PM

I would totally play Star Wars Guild Wars.

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Reply #131 on: October 30, 2008, 03:02:36 PM

Nobody wants to make single player games. They're too easy to pirate and don't bring in monthly bucks.  Business-wise it's smarter to just create one, add in network support to be "of those MMO-thingys", lop off all the support staff and limp along collecting $15-$20 from idiots who don't realize they're now paying $100 for a game they used to pay $50 for.

Well, duh. I was speaking purely from a design standpoint in relation to the company involved and the people making the game.


Ahh, gotcha.

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Reply #132 on: October 30, 2008, 04:27:54 PM

I would totally play Star Wars Guild Wars.


I wouldn't pay a monthly fee for one though.

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
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Reply #133 on: October 30, 2008, 06:43:55 PM

I don't think enough people chortle on the internet.
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Reply #134 on: October 31, 2008, 06:58:36 PM

The story stuff might be nice if all of it was voiced. I guess they could keep all that stuff server side and stream it down as needed. Like this they could set up new in-world missions with voice, but without all the silly big-ass patching (unless world content needs to be updated).

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Reply #135 on: November 02, 2008, 07:25:54 PM


Dear Diary,
Jackpot!
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Reply #136 on: November 02, 2008, 11:09:35 PM


So basically, I'm gonna have to play a million alts to gain enjoyment from this title?  pass...

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Reply #137 on: November 02, 2008, 11:45:02 PM


So basically, I'm gonna have to play a million alts to gain enjoyment from this title?  pass...


My take away from this is that the writers are happy with the writing aspect of it. Which is great, but I really need to see how it is implemented in the normal play experience.

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Reply #138 on: November 03, 2008, 01:51:49 AM


So basically, I'm gonna have to play a million alts to gain enjoyment from this title?  pass...


I think thats a bit of an overreaction to that article.  But what that guy doesn't seem to get is that other devs, historically, haven't sat around in berets and red smoking jackets saying "We could implement a meaningful story, but we will not, ha-ha!" 

What this guy is describing sounds like a mighty fine singleplayer game with co-op.  But he doesn't seem to understand that that type of game is NOT AN MMO.  MMOs have some sort of shared world, which is mostly incompatible with handcrafted super-instancedx10 singleplayer advancement.  Other MMOs have realized that the shared (not with 3 friends, but in the sense that hundreds of other people are doing things around you) world experience is important.  These guys don't seem to get it. 

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Reply #139 on: November 03, 2008, 05:08:04 AM

I wonder if the group training BioWare writers get, based on BioWare's single player experience, won't leave a lot of the writing as though it is 10 different single player plots that everyone just works through.

If you look at storylines in MMOs, MxO had (imo) a really interesting one that progressed things quite a bit. Each chapter gave each of the three sides something to do, then the resolution was announced and the storyline moved on. It did little to save the game and stop players from leaving because the basic gameplay mechanics weren't what people wanted to play.

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