SWTOR

[Thrawn]

You say painful.  I say "Whack-A-Mole" by having to actually use skill and reflexes instead of relying on add-ons to do it for me.  Healing used to be a badge of honor being able to keep a party alive through the fire and flame while juggling through targets, hotkeys and managing skills.  I'm rather glad they're taking the basic old-school approach from the start.  It will probably change over time...

I can't help but thinking of this in the same way as some parent talking about how they walked to school uphill both ways through 10 feet of snow in 120 degree weather when they were a kid and us youngsters have it so easy now.  

[Sky]

I never understood why this feature is so important to folks.  I find most game UI's fine.  Part of the annoyance I had with wow is that you practically HAD to download addons if you wanted to play competitively in PvE and PvP and those addons tended to really clutter up the screen.  Locked UI's mean everyone plays on a relatively similar playing field.  I can't remember if they have macros for this game, I hope they don't, although it may be an inevitability because of macro-programmable keypads and such.

I am completely on the same page.

I did move around EQ2's UI quite a bit, but TOR's UI works for me.

And macros. I think Rift has taught us that macros are bad. Same thing as mouseover healing: L2P 

[Numtini]

I like my mouseover healing just fine, and I was shocked that there was no ability to at least reskin and move around the UI, but I think when you start to do stuff like have the interface do active processing ie, only the stuff I can cure shows up in my UI, I see other healers incoming heals or hots, threat meters, etc. The things where you use to have the player make an analysis of data. Then you get into a problem where you've got an arms race between interface and challenge, which is where you get all the dances and such in WoW. Again, I love Vuhdo. But some aspects of it, I think, are changing the game.

Damage meters attract the most attention because people kick/ragequit over them. I really like seeing what's going on, particularly in a raid environment. But people pitching fits when you're doing fine because they are theoretically not putting out enough DPS is enough to make me ok living without them.

In the end, all of this is just commentary because no matter how corrosive some things are, there will be full active UI mods and an instant dungeon finder that awards points and transports you to and from the dungeon and people will act in the same rude manner they do in WoW.

Edit: Rift style macros are horrible. It reduced everything to mashing one button and I think that's one of the main things making the game feel so dull.

[sam, an eggplant]

Not having target of target is much more of an issue for me than mouseover anything.

Right, it doesn't have target of target either.

Rift's particular implementation with dozens of skills off the GCD forcing people to macro everything is bad. Macros in of themselves are perfectly fine-- the WoW implementation in particular works well.

And again, SWTOR writes a combatlog so it will have damagemeters anyway.

[luckton]

The problem with Rift is that while you can play without macros, you're looking at about 3-4 hotbars filled to the brim with skills and having to play like goddamned master piano player in order to do the same thing that one or two macros could do.

That may sound somewhat contradictory to what I had just posted.  All I can say is that even I have limits  

[caladein]

And macros. I think Rift has taught us that macros are bad. Same thing as mouseover healing: L2P 

Rift's macro clusterfuck is entirely on Trion.  They could have made theirs fail after the first failed on-GCD ability like WoW does.

It really is one of those things I can't get my head around about that game.  (Thankfully, I can avoid playing melee just fine.)

[kildorn]

I think the site is broken right now :/

Yeah, a couple million people trying to bang the site for client downloads, forum bashing and other muck will have that effect  

As for mods in general, remember that SWTOR is a diku MUD and it has no click to heal. No grid/clique or vuhdo. In fact, it has no ability to create mouseover macros; even Rift had that. Healing is fucking painful in SWTOR.

You say painful.  I say "Whack-A-Mole" by having to actually use skill and reflexes instead of relying on add-ons to do it for me.  Healing used to be a badge of honor being able to keep a party alive through the fire and flame while juggling through targets, hotkeys and managing skills.  I'm rather glad they're taking the basic old-school approach from the start.  It will probably change over time...

Hotkey (F1-5) healing + button press doesn't bother me in grouped content.

Where it makes me want to stab someone is in Raid or PVP content. Exactly what hotkey is "target the third member of group four", which is why things like healbot and grid/clique started up. That and libheal, which is goddamned awesome (shows your expected incoming heal to others running libheal enabled mods, so you not only know "X is hurt" but know he's about to get a heal so don't panic)

All that said, I have no idea how large raid content gets in SWOTOR, or PVP content. I'm mostly going into this blind based on the assumption that I may in fact like the story. But if there's raid or multi group pvp, a basic healing UI will just not cut it. Please tell me there's at least a target of target frame.

[Numtini]

I honestly love the piano player style of play. It's one of the reasons I always preferred EQ2 to WoW. That's a preference and it does go both ways.

Oh and the idea of downloading 12-20gig, then getting in Sunday morning for a test over a 4 day weekend that ends on Sunday is bogus.

[sam, an eggplant]

SWTOR does not have target of target at all. It does have multi-group raids. I don't know if it has multi-group PvP or not, haven't paid much attention to that. Target of target, much like all the other crap missing from WoW, will be added post-release.

Without all these niceties we've come to expect, SWTOR isn't a great MMO, but if you enjoyed KOTOR you will find the leveling experience pretty compelling. Hopefully by the time we get a couple characters to max-level they'll have added those conveniences and it will succeed as a MMO.

[Lakov_Sanite]

I'm not talking about mods, those are nice and do bring in a certain community to a game that does help but this is about being able to move UI elements at all.  Not being able to do something like move your hotbars around is going to be a HUGE quality of life issue for a lot of people.  It may not ever be something people point out as the reason they leave but it will add a lot of frustration to a game and make things much less fun.  To me it's almost certainly a dealbreaker.

[kildorn]

SWTOR does not have target of target at all. It does have multi-group raids. I don't know if it has multi-group PvP or not, haven't paid much attention to that.

Target of target, much like all the other crap missing from WoW, will be added post-release.

No target of target and "click name, click heal" will drive me mad. MAD I tell you. Just because you are, as Numtini pointed out, having the player make judgement calls and analysis on the data presented. But without the right tools (target of target, a decent UI) you're honestly half guessing and scrambling in a situation that should be pretty calm. I do not WANT what libheal fixed. libheal fixed the need for a 40 man raid to have a healers channel where everyone called out their healing targets every fucking cast so we knew who was already getting heals. Libheal does that with a much clearer UI over it. Also, range indicators on the health UI for things like PVP where someone may be at half health, but is in reality across the goddamned map from you.

But really, I can live without that, it's just annoying and will make me want to raid for much shorter time periods. A solution to "you have 15 players, the basic heal plan of F1/Healbutton fails with more than 1 group. Deal with it!" issue is far higher on my list of please god let them have an elegant solution that doesn't involve "just bring a healer for each group!"

[Pezzle]

Healing in the game is not particularly difficult.  On occasion getting a companion has been annoying, that is about it.  I need to figure out if there are keyboard shortcuts for the sidebars, THAT is bothersome.  

And to hell with WoW and the mod aids it infects you with.  That shit is ridiculous.  

[eldaec]

I dislike target of target because it removes too much decision making, only place I thought it worked ok was CoH, because the abilities tended to be heavily positional with lots of aoe, so assist spamming wasn't generally a great approach.

But I have no issue at all with UI mods.

Trying them out just adds another level of personalisation and meta gaming. It acts as another shiny babble to play with before I inevitably get bored and wander off.

[Wolf]

I really don't get the hate on damage/healing meters. They help you improve as a player and as a team. Yeah kids will be obnoxious with them, but they'll be obnoxious anyway so I don't see the difference.

btw, since we're on the topic of UI, how do procs visualize? Talking about something like this - http://www.torhead.com/ability/gnRzk3C

[Ironwood]

Because it gives them weapons.

Being obnoxious without a weapon to do so is easy to ignore.  When someone is ramming 'CRAP DPS CRAP DPS CRAP DPS' down the groups throat because you're maybe .005% under the rest of them sometimes leads to, well, the wee bastards winning.

 

[Sky]

I honestly love the piano player style of play. It's one of the reasons I always preferred EQ2 to WoW. That's a preference and it does go both ways.

Oh and the idea of downloading 12-20gig, then getting in Sunday morning for a test over a 4 day weekend that ends on Sunday is bogus.

Bb! NEED A Bb NOW! :) Since it's pretty much left hand dexterity, I enjoy it. I don't like being restricted on modifier keys (alt/ctrl), then it's like playing a chord!

I'm not even planning on playing but I downloaded it just to do my part to stress things. I might jump in for a bit as a Consular again just to add load to the servers, but I don't see any reason to waste time playing.

As far as raid healing, I say just get rid of raids.

[01101010]

I dislike target of target because it removes too much decision making, only place I thought it worked ok was CoH, because the abilities tended to be heavily positional with lots of aoe, so assist spamming wasn't generally a great approach.

But I have no issue at all with UI mods.

Trying them out just adds another level of personalisation and meta gaming. It acts as another shiny babble to play with before I inevitably get bored and wander off.

My only issue with the lack of target of target is the fact that healing the main "tank" becomes an F-key press, heal press, then retarget the active mob. In this game, where a lot of mobs come in packs, it makes it a fucking mess to tab through (though now that I think about it, there might be a hot key for last target) each hostile target to ge the right one, or you could try and monkey with the mouse click which is equally as silly. I was quite flustered in the fact that each MMO I have played since realizing this great feature has had it.

[Ironwood]

As for mods in general, remember that SWTOR is a diku MUD and it has no click to heal. No grid/clique or vuhdo. In fact, it has no ability to create mouseover macros; even Rift had that. You need to hit F2 to target the tank then the 1 button to cast a heal, old-school. Healing is fucking painful in SWTOR.

Good God, that sounds horrendous.

The wife isn't gonna be happy.

[Sky]

For the lol:

[01101010]

For the lol:

There is a fucking queue to get on the god damn website now? 

[Mrbloodworth]

Yeah ran into that too.

[Pezzle]

The thing is, if you add hot kustom UI bits the game gets easier and then they balance towards you having mods.  Then you must have them.  I engaged in a rather fantastic rant the first time I saw some of the advanced WoW stuff.  If the mods are going to tell you how to play the game (or play it for you) then why bother?  

[Wolf]

it's great when the waiting room redirects you to "server not found".

[01101010]

it's great when the waiting room redirects you to "server not found".

Working as intended...

[ghost]

I think I'm drifting into the realm of "skip the beta" and wait until ~months after I get my pre-order to activate my sub. 

[Nevermore]

Let's not kid ourselves. Not being able to change the UI in 2011 IS fucking clownshoes.

I never understood why this feature is so important to folks.  I find most game UI's fine.  Part of the annoyance I had with wow is that you practically HAD to download addons if you wanted to play competitively in PvE and PvP and those addons tended to really clutter up the screen.  Locked UI's mean everyone plays on a relatively similar playing field.  I can't remember if they have macros for this game, I hope they don't, although it may be an inevitability because of macro-programmable keypads and such.

There are plenty of games that allow you to move elements of your UI around as you like without allowing addons.  Guild Wars and CoX for two examples.  CoX was especially nice in that it allowed you to make new hotbars you could actually move into different shapes as well as put them where ever you like.

[amiable]

I enjoy old school healing, but honestly I pretty much hate doing PvE in groups of larger than 8 people.  I remember coming back to wow and running a pug raid and getting screamed at because I didn't have like 7 different mods that were apparently essential to do an encounter.  Why do I need third party mods to successfully do my job?  It's infuriating.  Putting everyone on the same playing field will hopefully reduce a lot of that crap.

[Bungee]

Uhm, I just read that they took on the ol' XP via PvP. Viable? Or just a gimmick?

[luckton]

Uhm, I just read that they took on the ol' XP via PvP. Viable? Or just a gimmick?

If anything it'll be as viable as grinding mobs in PvE, which is to say that if you enjoy grinding out space boars for 21 hours a day for two months straight, it's viable.

Quests, man, it's all about the quests.

[Falconeer]

Uhm, I just read that they took on the ol' XP via PvP. Viable? Or just a gimmick?

If anything it'll be as viable as grinding mobs in PvE, which is to say that if you enjoy grinding out space boars for 21 hours a day for two months straight, it's viable.

Space boars? No.
Space morons? Gimme.

If nothing else, their AI is slightly more unpredictable.

[luckton]

[kildorn]

I enjoy old school healing, but honestly I pretty much hate doing PvE in groups of larger than 8 people.  I remember coming back to wow and running a pug raid and getting screamed at because I didn't have like 7 different mods that were apparently essential to do an encounter.  Why do I need third party mods to successfully do my job?  It's infuriating.  Putting everyone on the same playing field will hopefully reduce a lot of that crap.

You don't need mods to do your job. People are whiny about what everyone else needs. The only one I usually ask people to install if they insist on playing without common raid mods is libheal, because it benefits everyone else who is running mods without impacting your gameplay at all. I know all of one person who healed raids in WoW without a single healing mod, and I think she's certifiably insane. Wrath and Cata went a long way to making it entirely possible to do without hating your life, though. The base UI has come a long way, and almost has everything I want now.

Boss Mods were the norm prior to Cata (and maybe wrath?), when raid bosses had abilities on strict timers, but lacked obvious cues for them. They changed the encounters to pretty clearly telegraph when it was time to change tactics for a minute.

[sam, an eggplant]

I don't particularly care whether functionality is exposed via the default UI (like Rift) or user-created mods. I do, however, expect to see that functionality. This is 2011, and SWTOR is releasing with the least customizable and feature-rich UI of any major MMO on the market today.

To summarize, SWTOR is missing:

1) Macros. Missing entirely.
2) Click-healing
3) Basic UI customization. Cannot move bars or windows around and cannot change scale or opacity either. Again, everquest one has all this.
4) Target of target. Both frame and auto-cast functionality. (IE, you cast a heal on a targetted monster and it heals your tank). Also no dual-targetting, which is a viable alternative.
5) Predictive healing. (libheal mentioned above)
6) Raid frames don't show buffs/debuffs and have no aggro, tank, or range indicators. They can't be changed to show a health deficit for healers.

I feel allowing mods is a good idea, since it allows you to leverage the expertise of millions of players. But if you take a hard-line stance against mods, you need to present a kick-ass default UI.

[Nebu]

I feel allowing mods is a good idea, since it allows you to leverage the expertise of millions of players. But if you take a hard-line stance against mods, you need to present a kick-ass default UI.

This should keep the thread going for another few pages.  

I hate mods.  I prefer that players adapt to the UI.  MMO's have gotten too easy with mods and macros.  As someone that enjoys pvp, I like to know that it was me that beat the opponent, not my UI tweaks and macros.  The more level the playing field, the easier it is to separate ability levels.

[Mrbloodworth]

I feel allowing mods is a good idea, since it allows you to leverage the expertise of millions of players. But if you take a hard-line stance against mods, you need to present a kick-ass default UI.

This should keep the thread going for another few pages.  

I hate mods.  I prefer that players adapt to the UI.  MMO's have gotten too easy with mods and macros.  As someone that enjoys pvp, I like to know that it was me that beat the opponent, not my UI tweaks and macros.  The more level the playing field, the easier it is to separate ability levels.

Same here.