SWTOR

[Sjofn]

Yeah it's ... it's pretty much impossible to sleep with a dude by accident in DA2. It was pretty difficult to do in DA:O too (I thought) but I could see how people managed to do it. DA2 is like ... how much more spelled out do you need it? 

[Evildrider]

Haha its cuz when I first went through it I didn't pay attention and never saw the hearts til later.  I never did the romance thing in DA or in DA2 for that matter.

[Sjofn]

What a good way to teach someone to pay attention. "Ignore our icons, will you? I hope you enjoy Anders eating your face off!"


spoiler: I totally did.

[Rokal]

Come at me, bro. Let's get this to 400. Me defending DA2's honor is good for a LOT, I am sure.

Honestly, I could overlook most of the gameplay changes: the waves combat, the loot changes, the re-used areas. What killed DA2 for me was the story. The game is a series of false choices that the game doesn't even attempt to honor in the end. They forced one conclusion on everyone so that they could make more sequels. DA:O and Mass Effect 1/2 are also about false choices, but the choices they gave you were more compelling and it felt like the game really changed based on what you were doing even though it actually didn't (which you see on repeat playthroughs). The pacing of the story was terrible, and Kirkwall felt cheap and lazy instead of like a city that evolved with the story. I mean hell, Ocarina of Time's Hyrule evolved more over the course of the game, and that game is over a decade old. Bioware games don't have excellent gameplay, they live and die by their story & setting. DA2's story & setting were bad.

We could easily get to 400 pages talking about DA2 because I have a fucking axe to grind with that game. I couldn't have been more excited about it before it came out, being a huge fan of DA:O that dumped 170+ hours into it, and it completely let me down.

[Sjofn]

170 hours? That's adorable. 

So what it really boils down to, it sounds like to me, is you didn't like the story they elected to tell. That's fine, but I disagree. The theme of futility and that you aren't in fact the center of the universe were both things I actually enjoyed. I can't replay DA2 as much as I replayed DA:O (let's be fair, no one should play any game as much as I played DA:O), but it was not a bad game. I would also say the character writing was outstanding, which is the main reason to play ANY Bioware game.

[Rokal]

So what it really boils down to, it sounds like to me, is you didn't like the story they elected to tell. That's fine, but I disagree. The theme of futility and that you aren't in fact the center of the universe were both things I actually enjoyed. I can't replay DA2 as much as I replayed DA:O (let's be fair, no one should play any game as much as I played DA:O), but it was not a bad game. I would also say the character writing was outstanding, which is the main reason to play ANY Bioware game.

Not every game needs to be about you saving the world, but DA2 felt like it didn't have enough focus on any goal at all. Within the first three hours of DAO I had three major goals that motivated me to continue playing to see what happened. The unresolved threads of your origin story, Loghain's betrayel, and the arch demon. They could have cut out the arch demon, making the story smaller scale and less about you being the 'chosen one', and it still would have been an awesome story. Within the first 5 hours of DA2, it doesn't really feel like you have clear or interesting goals. You do some off-screen labor to get into a city, and then your goal becomes 'get money'. The start, middle, and end of the game are not all working towards the same story coherently (which wasn't even a very good story).

I would have been okay with the outcome of DA2 if they were talented enough writers to sell me on it. If my choices felt like they mattered, but it just wasn't enough to save Kirkwall, that would have been okay. That just isn't how it felt to me. The outcome felt so much more forced and unnatural, and the way both factions acted in the end wasn't consistent with how they acted throughout the rest of the game.

[Sjofn]

Don't get me wrong, the game isn't perfect. The ending is definitely not what it could be. I just think people who are all BLARGHHARBLURF WORST GAME EVER need to shut the fuck up and get some perspective. 

[Sophismata]

Off the cuff, I didn't like either DA1 or DA2. They were both poor games. The inconsistency with dialogue and gameplay was the primary annoyance. That, and the tactical combat being bad.

But it felt weird to have NPC's, even party members, talk about the evil of mages (and blood magic), all the while ignoring you walking around in wizard robes and slinging fireballs. This became especially obvious (and annoying) in DA2. I think that Bioware feels gameplay verisimilitude is insignificant next to its all-important story.

I wonder if we will see the same in SWTOR.

[Sheepherder]

The medium is evolving again, but probably not like folks expected. It's not game mechanics that's going to change but the presentation. With games like GTA, Mass Effect, Dragon Age, LA Noire and now SWTOR bringing a professionally acted, fully voiced experience, reading scrolling quest text is going to be as old school as forced grouping and non-instanced dungeons. WoW is on the downside but it'll still chug on. The real impact is going to be on Titan. If it has fanfic quest text like WoW it will fail.

Blizzard is already moving away from quest text.  It's just really hard to give a shit when the plot is tedious as fuck.

[Rendakor]

I didn't get into DA:O, mostly because it felt like a crappier NWN. Even the parts of NWN that weren't stellar were entertaining to me because I like the D&D rules, FR setting, etc. while DA:O just felt like Generic_Fantasy_World. Having friendly fire on by default didn't help, nor did my proud refusal to turn it off despite countless wipes to it. If I'm not enjoying the gameplay OR the story I usually wander off.

I didn't even bother with DA2 just because I didn't care for DA:O and the changes I heard about it (more action-oriented combat!) were not positive to me.

[Evildrider]

Man, I wish Bioware would do another Baldur's Gate.   

[Rokal]

Don't get me wrong, the game isn't perfect. The ending is definitely not what it could be. I just think people who are all BLARGHHARBLURF WORST GAME EVER need to shut the fuck up and get some perspective. 

I don't think it's even the worst game that came out that month. I do think it's probably the worst game that Bioware has released though.

[Cyrrex]

I think that Bioware feels gameplay verisimilitude is insignificant next to its all-important story.

I wonder if we will see the same in SWTOR.

The "gameplay" in SWTOR is pretty much standard DIKU.  Nobody should be surprised by that by now.  Other than that, all I can say is that I quite enjoyed raping face with my Trooper in a way that I rarely did with, say, my Hunter in WoW.  Will that wear off?  Maybe.  But then I can fall back on the fact that the story is good, and the presentation is fantastic.

This is KOTOR.  Online, and with all the trimmings that entails.  With way better graphics.  And combat that is more fun. 

[Ratman_tf]

Blizzard is already moving away from quest text.  It's just really hard to give a shit when the plot is tedious as fuck.

Stop playing.
Watch a tedious cutscene.
Go back to collecting rat gizzards.

Gaming has evolved! 

[Cyrrex]

Where WoW literally has you "collecting 10 rat gizzards so I can make rat gizzard soup" all the time, I didn't feel like I was doing any of that kind of worthless stuff in my SWTOR beta experience.  Under the surface, that may be exactly what you are doing...but it doesn't feel like it.  They have done a good job of wrapping these tasks into quest lines, so everything you are doing seems important or relevant.  

You can break all gaming down to a common denominator if you try hard enough (hit button, watch screen, thing happens), but that argument doesn't always work.  This is NOT WoW questing.  If you want to say that the story bores the shit out of you, fine.  But then, not sure why you'd be in the SWTOR thread.

[Rokal]

*Most* of the quests weren't that transparent. The exception to this was during the sith warrior/inquis newbie areas, which were the weakest stories/areas I played. Who knows how it is later in the game.

[DraconianOne]

Again, I look back to BioWare's own stats that only 50% of players actually finish the games they release.

Ah good, statistics.

Valve's gameplay stats for some of their games show a similar figures:

• HL2: Episode 1 - 52% of players reached the last map (although only 38% are recorded as having completed the game but Valve point out that this might also be because players don't sit through the credits or there's a bug so it may not reflect who actually finished)
• HL2: Episode 2 - 50% reach the last map (to all extensive purposes, completing the game - but I note that 59% reached the map before where you defend the missile facility from the Combine offensive so nearly 10% dropped out before finishing the game).
• Portal: 48% have the Heartbreaker achievement
• Portal 2: 62% have the Lunacy achievement

The gameplay stats for Episode 1 & 2 have graphs which show similar rates of drop off between levels as well.

Obviously this isn't enough of a dataset to draw significant conclusions from but, based on these, if I had the time and the means for a study, I'd put forward the hypothesis that only 50% of players who start a game actually finish a game (gameplay issues not withstanding). Someone must have done/be doing something similar, surely?

As an aside, I also looked at some of the figures for achievements on www.wow-acheivements.com which used to poll the armoury for data. Looking at the WotLK achievements, it generally seemed like 50-60% of characters completed all the quests for each zone in Northrend (~30% on each faction) although 72% have the Veteran of the Wrathgate achievement. These stats may not be representative of anything though because of Alts, population split between factions, those who have all but one quest needed for the achievement etc.

[Cyrrex]

For an MMO, though, players don't have to reach the "end of the game" for it to make much difference to the developers.  I have sunk money in a bunch of MMOs (not like most of you lunatics) and think I've only hit max level in two of them.  And one of them was DCUO, which takes no time at all.

May not be representative of MMO players, but the point is that finishing the game has nothing to do with people buying and playing the game.  The guy who poopsocks his way to level 50 and then ragequits SWTOR won't be giving them nearly as much money as I will on my meandering path.

[01101010]

For an MMO, though, players don't have to reach the "end of the game" for it to make much difference to the developers.  I have sunk money in a bunch of MMOs (not like most of you lunatics) and think I've only hit max level in two of them.  And one of them was DCUO, which takes no time at all.

May not be representative of MMO players, but the point is that finishing the game has nothing to do with people buying and playing the game.  The guy who poopsocks his way to level 50 and then ragequits SWTOR won't be giving them nearly as much money as I will on my meandering path.

I would say that is the focus of he business model these days. Burning to max level for bragging rights ends up flaming out when there is nothing to do and no one to do anything with. It doesn't take long to figure out, you should stick with the 95% of the curve in order to prolong your enjoyment of an MMO. Being first to cap is hardly a badge of honor like it used to be.

[Murgos]

...to all extensive purposes...

For all intents and purposes.  I.e. for what ever reason something was being done the result is thus.  For all extensive purposes would mean for purposes more vast in scope than normal ones, which is not what you are trying to say.

Sorry, it's a pet peeve.

Obviously this isn't enough of a dataset to draw significant conclusions from but, based on these, if I had the time and the means for a study, I'd put forward the hypothesis that only 50% of players who start a game actually finish a game (gameplay issues not withstanding). Someone must have done/be doing something similar, surely?

Actually, I would change this hypothesis to say, "Only half of players who start a even very good games finish them.".  I would expect that average to mediocre to poor games actually have far less of a fulfillment rate than 50%.

I typically won't even buy a game that isn't highly rated and well received and even then only in a genre that I am really interested in and I won't finish most of those I start.

[Sky]

Where WoW literally has you "collecting 10 rat gizzards so I can make rat gizzard soup" all the time, I didn't feel like I was doing any of that kind of worthless stuff in my SWTOR beta experience.  Under the surface, that may be exactly what you are doing...but it doesn't feel like it.  They have done a good job of wrapping these tasks into quest lines, so everything you are doing seems important or relevant.  

Most rpgs can be broken down into those kind of elements. In Skyrim last night, I had a couple fedex and one kill 10 bear and bring me their hides.

Hell, life is just eat, shit, sleep and die. Might as well give up on that, too. I'm beginning to suspect we're harboring nihilists, Donny.

The guy who poopsocks his way to level 50 and then ragequits SWTOR won't be giving them nearly as much money as I will on my meandering path.

Ditto. I played EQ2 very casually, never hit the level cap (they kept raising it anyway). But I would sub for 5-6 months a year up until last year. There is so much content I haven't seen in EQ2 I could get another few years out of it even if they stopped releasing content today. But there are probably a bunch of folks bitching about there being nothing to do.

[Mrbloodworth]

The voice acting will make it more expensive but it doesn't really add complexity.    You just hire the voice actors and the scene creators and they do their thing with the tools provided.

That's really a lot more effort than you're making it out to be. And yes, it's very expensive. If the game doesn't turn out to be a huge success, EA isn't going to want to invest buckets of money into voice acting for live content updates. The amount of work they have to do to throw in a new 30-quest hub is quite a bit higher when they have to write, hire, coordinate, direct, and record another 800+ lines of dialogue (it adds up fast when you consider 8 different classes/actors with branching dialogue). Not to mention that all of that dialogue is then thrown into scripted cut-scenes with (some?) lip-syncing. Blizzard just throws all that shit in a text box.

Lip-syncing is likely automatic based off the sound file. Facial expressions, not so much. I also wonder how much of the existing VO lines can be reused. "I don't think we should do this" or "The empire is evil!" can be reused a good deal.

[DraconianOne]

...to all extensive purposes...

For all intents and purposes.  I.e. for what ever reason something was being done the result is thus.  For all extensive purposes would mean for purposes more vast in scope than normal ones, which is not what you are trying to say.

Sorry, it's a pet peeve.

I consider myself duly chastised for that malapropism. 

[Lakov_Sanite]

As a complete aside, Skyrim shows exactly why DA and DA:2 sucked.

[Rasix]

As a complete aside, Skyrim shows exactly why DA and DA:2 sucked.

Apples and not apples.

[Reg]

DA and DA:2 didn't suck. Is it possible that you just don't like them for personal reasons?

[Paelos]

DA and DA:2 didn't suck. Is it possible that you just don't like them for personal reasons?

Absolutely not. There is no such thing as personal preference on the internet. There are things that suck and things that rule, and DAMN THE TORPEDOS IF YOU DISAGREE WITH WHAT SUCKS!

[Ingmar]

As a complete aside, Skyrim shows exactly why DA and DA:2 sucked.

No, it just shows you a different kind of game. Skyrim is utterly weak in the areas where Bioware games are strong (characterization, for example - I have one companion in Skyrim and she is utterly devoid of any personality at all). The combat is also frankly kind of shitty, and while DA/DA:2 aren't exactly tours de force in that area either I enjoy that part of the game more in those. The only combat that feels particularly fun to me in Skyrim is the sneaky archer type stuff, and I liked that better with a sniper rifle in the Fallouts. Otherwise it is just click to swing, even the "dumbed down" combat in DA2 has more strategy to it. Perhaps melee will be less lame when I have some more/better shouts to use, I'm not all that far in yet.

Skyrim does a fantastic job of creating a world, there's no doubt, but that's not the only thing that matters, to me at least. Obviously if you like open worlds better you'll probably like TES games more than Bioware ones, but especially for MMOs, that's not the majority of the market. People have voted overwhelmingly with their dollars over the years in favor of a more directed experience.

[Der Helm]

I heard LGBT guild's are going to be banned from SWTOR.  Thank the gods!

I hear these people approve of this message...

I think I found a guild for my Republic alts.
 

 

[Sky]

I didn't care for DA/DA2, either and I love the characterizations of Bioware games.

As far as melee combat goes, I've been having fun with the 1h/shield combo, though I stick to the war axe for rp and skill point reasons. While it is basic in that you only get a couple attacks (incl shield bash!), stuff like the decaps and finishing moves keep it enjoyable imo.

As far as shouts go, I'm now all about the BULLET TIME SHOUT. Between that and the perk that slows time when an enemy uses a power move...oh yeah baby.

[01101010]

I heard LGBT guild's are going to be banned from SWTOR.  Thank the gods!

I hear these people approve of this message...

I think I found a guild for my Republic alts.
 

 

RP server and that guild would make for some hilarious dialog. I would go around screaming "the power of christ compels you" at everything I'd be swinging at. 

[Mrbloodworth]

Holy crap. Read the "CONSTITUTION".

I think that guild is there so they can out "christian" one another.

[Der Helm]

Holy crap. Read the "CONSTITUTION".

I think that guild is there so they can out "christian" one another.

It's going to be fun. 

[Lakov_Sanite]

DA tried so hard to be actiony that it really fell flat to me in the rpg dept.

[Ingmar]

I can understand coming to that conclusion with DA2, but DA:O was really just Infinity Engine combat redone. (Unless you played it on a console I guess, I am told that version was much more actiony.)