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Author Topic: The Elder Scrolls Online  (Read 755886 times)
blackwulf
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Reply #105 on: May 04, 2012, 03:37:59 PM

So I don't see anything new here.  So hard classes, trinity, dungeons and everyone has the same resource mechanic: stamina?

At least start with hybrid combat like GW2.

Did you read the article?  They specifically state that they are not trinity focused - any 5 characters with appropriate level/gear should be able to clear group content.  I think people need to take a step back and wait for more info.  So many assumptions being thrown around.  I can list at least 10 ways the article said the game will be different than WOW, but people are still calling it a WOW clone?  It lists more differences than GW2 does, but GW2 is the second coming of Jesus?

We have people on here saying it should be aim and click combat cause by god DDO did it and so does TERA!!  Well, news flash, DDO and TERA don't have shit for pvp.  Maybe they tested stuff like that but it didn't work with 200+ people fighting in the same area?

Give them a chance; the company hasn't even officially said a word yet, and there's more whine in this thread than all the vineyards of California.
Lucas
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Reply #106 on: May 04, 2012, 03:40:16 PM

Welcome to F13, bitch  this guy looks legit

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Malakili
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Reply #107 on: May 04, 2012, 03:48:13 PM

So I don't see anything new here.  So hard classes, trinity, dungeons and everyone has the same resource mechanic: stamina?

At least start with hybrid combat like GW2.

Did you read the article?  They specifically state that they are not trinity focused - any 5 characters with appropriate level/gear should be able to clear group content.  I think people need to take a step back and wait for more info.  So many assumptions being thrown around.  I can list at least 10 ways the article said the game will be different than WOW, but people are still calling it a WOW clone?  It lists more differences than GW2 does, but GW2 is the second coming of Jesus?

We have people on here saying it should be aim and click combat cause by god DDO did it and so does TERA!!  Well, news flash, DDO and TERA don't have shit for pvp.  Maybe they tested stuff like that but it didn't work with 200+ people fighting in the same area?

Give them a chance; the company hasn't even officially said a word yet, and there's more whine in this thread than all the vineyards of California.

Meh, I can literally tell by that screenshot that this game is going to be disappointing.

These are the kinds of images Bethesda tends to market the Elder Scrolls games with.

Somewhat ironically, those inspire a much more "MMO" feeling in me than the actual MMO one, which inspires in me.... nothing... 

Just the screenshot choice alone tells me all I need to know.

I'm completely aware I may, several years and dozens of pages later in this thread, totally take this back, but fuck it it isn't f13 without doomcasting.
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Reply #108 on: May 04, 2012, 03:50:52 PM

We have people on here saying it should be aim and click combat cause by god DDO did it and so does TERA!!

No numbnuts. We have people on here saying it should be aim and click BECAUSE THE ELDER SCROLLS GAMES ARE AIM AND CLICK.

Also, I can list 10 ways it's exactly like WoW.

1 - Action bar
2 - Raids and Dungeons
3 - Classes
4 - Art Style
5 - Pitiful Attempt at E-Sport PvP
6 - Button Mashing Combat
7 - Don't Stand in the Fire!
8 - WoW Mechanics with TES style!
9 - Heroic modes!
10 - Fucking elves!

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Tyrnan
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Reply #109 on: May 04, 2012, 03:52:29 PM

10 - Fucking elves!
Is that a mini-game?
Rokal
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Reply #110 on: May 04, 2012, 03:55:26 PM

We have people on here saying it should be aim and click combat cause by god DDO did it and so does TERA!!  Well, news flash, DDO and TERA don't have shit for pvp.  Maybe they tested stuff like that but it didn't work with 200+ people fighting in the same area?

Give them a chance; the company hasn't even officially said a word yet, and there's more whine in this thread than all the vineyards of California.

General impressions for TERA PvP seem to be that it works well, but there just isn't much structure in the game yet to support it (battlegrounds, etc). Regardless, the latency/"MMO" excuse for realtime action combat is a wash. You can also see DCUO for another example of realtime action combat that works fine for PvP in an MMO.

No numbnuts. We have people on here saying it should be aim and click BECAUSE THE ELDER SCROLLS GAMES ARE AIM AND CLICK.

Even the Gameinformer PR-BJ article that the quote is from acknowledges that realtime combat is "the model that has driven the series since its inception".
blackwulf
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Reply #111 on: May 04, 2012, 03:58:28 PM

We have people on here saying it should be aim and click combat cause by god DDO did it and so does TERA!!

No numbnuts. We have people on here saying it should be aim and click BECAUSE THE ELDER SCROLLS GAMES ARE AIM AND CLICK.

Also, I can list 10 ways it's exactly like WoW.

1 - Action bar
2 - Raids and Dungeons
3 - Classes
4 - Art Style
5 - Pitiful Attempt at E-Sport PvP
6 - Button Mashing Combat
7 - Don't Stand in the Fire!
8 - WoW Mechanics with TES style!
9 - Heroic modes!
10 - Fucking elves!

1-4 & 10 - Haha, sounds like you are just mad it's a fantasy MMO.
5 - I don't like the sound of e-sport options either, but I'm hopeful that is just the Game Informer writer trying to sound hip.  Maybe they just said, "yeah, we'll have arenas too, with a leaderboard if people don't like large pvp battles."
6 - We'll have to wait and see it played before we can really call it button mashing, won't we?
7 - You saw a raid?
8 - Uh again, gonna have to wait and see.
9 - Extra content at top level?  Not sure why you hate this idea.
Kail
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Reply #112 on: May 04, 2012, 04:07:27 PM


No numbnuts. We have people on here saying it should be aim and click BECAUSE THE ELDER SCROLLS GAMES ARE AIM AND CLICK.
[snip...]
1 - Action bar
2 - Raids and Dungeons
3 - Classes
4 - Art Style

1-4 & 10 - Haha, sounds like you are just mad it's a fantasy MMO.

This is the problem.  Having classes and hotkey combat is not a staple of the fantasy genre, it's a trait of WoW and DIKU type MMOs specifically, and it's become so prevalent in the MMO genre that people forget that you can even do it any other way.  It is entirely possible to do a fantasy game without using classes, without using hotkeys or raids.  See, oh, just to pick a game at random, Skyrim, for example.
blackwulf
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Reply #113 on: May 04, 2012, 04:15:10 PM


1-4 & 10 - Haha, sounds like you are just mad it's a fantasy MMO.

This is the problem.  Having classes and hotkey combat is not a staple of the fantasy genre, it's a trait of WoW and DIKU type MMOs specifically, and it's become so prevalent in the MMO genre that people forget that you can even do it any other way.  It is entirely possible to do a fantasy game without using classes, without using hotkeys or raids.  See, oh, just to pick a game at random, Skyrim, for example.

Classes were around before DIKU.  D&D for instance.  I know you don't have to have classes, and I do understand that some of you would rather have the old skill system.  I understand your beef that this isn't 'like Skyrim' also.  I just think we should all take a step back and wait for some more details before we decide how mad we are.  Maybe they have brilliantly designed classes that are really fun to play.  Maybe in action the game makes TERA's warrior dodge gimmick seem like a snore fest.

Now, that said - I'll stop chiming in here for a while and let you guys vent your rage in peace.
Tyrnan
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Reply #114 on: May 04, 2012, 04:17:56 PM

Classes were around before DIKU.
Were they in TES though? I've only played Oblivion and Skyrim but I always thought the lack of classes was one of the features of the series as a whole?
Venkman
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Reply #115 on: May 04, 2012, 04:19:14 PM

1-4 & 10 - Haha, sounds like you are just mad it's a fantasy MMO.
5 - I don't like the sound of e-sport options either, but I'm hopeful that is just the Game Informer writer trying to sound hip.  Maybe they just said, "yeah, we'll have arenas too, with a leaderboard if people don't like large pvp battles."
6 - We'll have to wait and see it played before we can really call it button mashing, won't we?
7 - You saw a raid?
8 - Uh again, gonna have to wait and see.
9 - Extra content at top level?  Not sure why you hate this idea.

Ah so it's your turn then.

If we took a "wait and see" attitude, we wouldn't bother posting on forums.

The hate isn't about "new MMO". There's been scores of those. It's more that they're taking a brand we've all loved as a specifically non-MMO game and are slapping it on an MMO.

Yes, there's no proof and we'll wait for demos and maybe love it and all that shit. Been doing that since we were arguing whether Lineage 1 was a valid comparison to UO  awesome, for real

But, that article has said all the same things so many other fantasy MMOs have said that it's hard to see this as anything other than Zenimax taking Bethesda's brand and slapping it on a knockoff.
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Reply #116 on: May 04, 2012, 04:19:43 PM

Bethesda has certainly not proved they can make a balanced skill system in their prior games; perhaps they are aware of this and that is why they're going with classes.

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Lucas
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Reply #117 on: May 04, 2012, 04:23:21 PM

Bethesda has certainly...

Bioware AUSTIN Err...Zenimax Online Studios

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blackwulf
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Reply #118 on: May 04, 2012, 04:24:13 PM

Bethesda has certainly not proved they can make a balanced skill system in their prior games; perhaps they are aware of this and that is why they're going with classes.

That's actually a very good point.  Let's be real:  Skyrim was a joke if you trained certain skills.
To answer an earlier post, I'm pretty sure even Arena was skill based.  I played it and I can remember wandering the countrside shooting fireballs at things to level up that skill.  Pretty sure it was that game anyway.  I bet Firor will be asked why they didn't go this route in an interview soon, and we'll all find out.  Hopefully it wasn't just an arbitrary decision.
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Reply #119 on: May 04, 2012, 04:29:04 PM

Classes were around before DIKU.
Were they in TES though? I've only played Oblivion and Skyrim but I always thought the lack of classes was one of the features of the series as a whole?

They've beein in TES before, yeah.  Daggerfall + Morrowind + Oblivion all had "classes" that defined which skills were major skills (which levelled up faster and determined your overall level gains) but they were pretty loose since you could still do just about everything with every character if you wanted, or design your own custom class.  The original Arena had more D&D type, hard coded classes and abilities, and didn't use the skills system that the later games did (your class defined the gear you could equip, the spells you could cast, and special abilities like crit damage, and you couldn't change any of that).
« Last Edit: May 04, 2012, 05:17:02 PM by Kail »
FieryBalrog
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Reply #120 on: May 04, 2012, 04:36:16 PM

We have people on here saying it should be aim and click combat cause by god DDO did it and so does TERA!!  Well, news flash, DDO and TERA don't have shit for pvp.  Maybe they tested stuff like that but it didn't work with 200+ people fighting in the same area?

Yes, because the Elder Scrolls games are widely beloved for their RvR, and not their real time combat and immersion and freewheeling world rules systems.

....

Gonna repeat what someone else said before: Make your own game. Making an Elder Scrolls MMO? Start with what is exciting about an Elder Scrolls MMO?. You don't START with a list of by the numbers bullet points, and hammer and beat up your brand to fit them. That's exactly what TOR did, and that's what Warhammer did, and it's just as stupid here. Why the fuck, when making a TES online game, is the first bullet point "Gotta have dat mass PvP! Spirit of the franchise right there, baby!"

Just because you personally still get super excited anytime someone pulls out the DAOC card, doesn't mean every franchise should be beaten into a DAOC shaped mold and baked in the oven. I mean apart from anything else, their lust for Camelot already has them mangling the shit out of the lore to beat the races into place.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2012, 04:42:52 PM by FieryBalrog »
Tyrnan
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Reply #121 on: May 04, 2012, 04:46:31 PM

Classes were around before DIKU.
Were they in TES though? I've only played Oblivion and Skyrim but I always thought the lack of classes was one of the features of the series as a whole?

They've beein in TES before, yeah.  Daggerfall + Morrowind + Oblivion all had "classes" that defined which skills were major skills (which levelled up faster and determined your overall level gains) but they were pretty lose since you could still do just about everything with every character if you wanted, or design your own custom class.  The original Arena had more D&D type, hard coded classes and abilities, and didn't use the skills system that the later games did (your class defined the gear you could equip, the spells you could cast, and special abilities like crit damage, and you couldn't change any of that).
Aah, thanks for the summary. Now that you mention it I vaguely remember the major/minor thing from Oblivion although I had a stronger memory of having a sneaky tank-mage which is why I though it was classless. But as already said, maybe they thought everyone would make something like that and it would be a nightmare to balance and we'd end up with Champions Online 2  ACK!
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Reply #122 on: May 04, 2012, 04:57:20 PM

Guys, when you run an MMO latency is magically 10 times worse than when you run an FPS, RTS, MOBA or anything else.

It's simple physics. I would explain it but it's so obvious it would be a waste of time.

As far as "I can name 10 ways this is not like WoW"....there are people who can name 10 ways that SWTOR is not like WoW, or 10 ways that Sony Smash Brothers is totally not Smash Brothers. It's pretty clear from their high level choices that the game is more WoW than Elder Scrolls. Camera - WoW. Combat - WoW. Levelling - WoW. If you think of basically every mechanic that makes an Elder Scrolls game an Elder Scrolls game this game lacks it.

It's like Elder Scrolls only with hotbar-based not-really-realtime combat, third person camera, classes instead of skill levelling...so basically not Elder Scrolls at all. It seems to me that if you read the list of features and left out mention of Elder Scrolls proper names you would never guess it was a Scrolls game.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2012, 05:33:32 PM by Margalis »

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Reply #123 on: May 04, 2012, 05:20:21 PM

Go to a town, kill ten somethings, collect ten somethings from the ground, get the asses of ten somethings, get the breadcrumb quest to the next town, repeat to max level.  Run regular dungeons until you achieve shoulders big enough to run hard mode dungeons, run those until you look ridiculous enough to handle raids, now run those until you earn the right to run hard mode raids, bitch about lack of content.  Daily quests, faction/rep grinding.  Battlegrounds --> pvp ranks --> pvp gear --> pwn noobs.  Tacked on crafting that is either completely useless or a must have advantage for the raiders/pvpers, likely both depending on whether you win the crafting skill lotto or not.  I truly hope i am wrong about any of this, but they started making this game in 07 right? there is no way they are making anything else and it will bomb.

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Reply #124 on: May 04, 2012, 05:57:18 PM

Now, that said - I'll stop chiming in here for a while and let you guys vent your rage in peace.

Considering when you registered and what kind of odd hard-on you have for the game, AND what your first post was...

I'd say it's likely you're a mole anyway.

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Reply #125 on: May 04, 2012, 06:01:10 PM

They should at least have a skill system like AC's, that approximates TES' skill system.

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Reply #126 on: May 04, 2012, 06:35:52 PM

I cannot overstate my complete lack of enthusiasm for this.

Excited then disappointed in the space of about 10 minutes.  Ohhhhh, I see.
blackwulf
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Reply #127 on: May 04, 2012, 06:58:26 PM

Now, that said - I'll stop chiming in here for a while and let you guys vent your rage in peace.

Considering when you registered and what kind of odd hard-on you have for the game, AND what your first post was...

I'd say it's likely you're a mole anyway.

I wish I was a mole, I could get some inside info and maybe get into beta.  I just signed up when the rumors of this leak came out on Tom's last month, cause I wanted to talk about it.  I've literally lurked around this forums since the Vanguard development days.  I was at the gym thinking about this thread, and I think I had an epiphany, though:

Many of you are mad cause you love TES.  I'll be honest, I've considered myself a fan of TES, but am I really?  I liked Arena and Daggerfall, but I think that's because I wasn't into MMO games back then (was EQ even out yet?) but, really, Morrowind was kinda a 'meh' for me.  Oblivion and Skyrim got old to me after a few hours.  I appreciated what they were trying to do, but they weren't near as fun for me as an MMO.

So, being honest, I can say that the reason I think I'm hopeful and excited about this game has very little to do with TES and a lot to do with the idea that a new game with a decent budget has come out and it seems to have a LOT of what made me love DAOC in it.  No combat like Skyrim? I don't give a shit.  The factions don't make sense?  Doesn't bother me in the least.  Graphics look different?  Don't care.

What I do care about:  

-No holy trinity.
-Visceral combat with style chains, blocks, sprint (sounds like DAOC 2 to me)  
-Open world persistent PVP area with many different types of objectives.  
-No quest hubs - seriously, this killed TERA for me.  
-PVP endgame designed from the start (not tacked on like retarded Ilum)
-Open dungeons - yes I miss Guk, and please, please let there be one in the PVP zone - Hello Darkness Falls?
-No skill bloat - from the article they want 'every skill to be meaningful' and you have to choose a few to have active at a time.
-Decent graphics (I know it's personal, but I liked the way the screenshots looked)

Anyway, I think I could come up with more, but I'm hoping more material will get revealed soon and I won't have to.

TLDR: Sorry to the fans of TES that feel betrayed, but frankly I am a much bigger DAOC fan than TES fan, and I'm glad things came out like this.  I hope I'm not alone.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2012, 07:14:56 PM by blackwulf »
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Reply #128 on: May 04, 2012, 06:59:56 PM

The problem isn't that this game looks line a clone of WoW, it's that it looks like generic fantasy MMO #57, with the Elder Scrolls title + lore slapped on top. Their listed features so far read out like the most bland, generic MMO you could possibly make, and sounds nothing at all like something belonging in the Elder Scrolls universe.

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Reply #129 on: May 04, 2012, 07:14:04 PM

TLDR: Sorry to the fans of TES that feel betrayed, but frankly I am a much bigger DAOC fan than TES fan, and I'm glad things came out like this.  I hope I'm not alone.

I doubt you're alone, but they called it Elder Scrolls Online, and are clearly trying to appeal to fans of the franchise (whilst abandoning the things that define that franchise). That right there is setting it up for failure on an epic scale. The backlash (and negative PR) from the diehard TES fans is going to be spectacular.
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Reply #130 on: May 04, 2012, 08:21:19 PM

Corporate greed and fossils like Firor will continue to hold back the industry for years to come. Are consumers finally growing tired of repurchasing what's essentially the same game they have been playing since the 90s several times each year? I can only hope this one fails on an epic scale, and then serves as a warning to developers that try to follow the same path in the future.
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Reply #131 on: May 04, 2012, 08:32:48 PM

So it's 13 years after EQ came out, but we're still bound by the same latency concerns as 1999? I don't buy this.

Of course not, the modern electrical and optical signals are obviously much faster.

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Reply #132 on: May 04, 2012, 08:37:56 PM

We have people on here saying it should be aim and click combat cause by god DDO did it and so does TERA!!  Well, news flash, DDO and TERA don't have shit for pvp.  Maybe they tested stuff like that but it didn't work with 200+ people fighting in the same area?
Err... TERA is open world PVP on the PVP servers. Meaning yes, they do expect 200+ free for alls to break out in the same area, potentially.
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Reply #133 on: May 04, 2012, 08:43:33 PM

I'm about ready to go back to MUDS.  Not like much has friggin' changed.

(Thank you GW2 for giving me something to tickle my Explorer fancy.)

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
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Reply #134 on: May 04, 2012, 09:11:03 PM

Ok, I'm having quite a gloomy evening for personal reasons, but you actually made me laugh with that  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly? Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

Well struck Nonentity  +:grin:
Paelos
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Reply #135 on: May 04, 2012, 09:18:26 PM

TLDR: Sorry to the fans of TES that feel betrayed, but frankly I am a much bigger DAOC fan than TES fan, and I'm glad things came out like this.  I hope I'm not alone.

If they'd named it DAOC2, I doubt any of us would feel betrayed. The problem is that when they did this with WAR, it didn't work.

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Reply #136 on: May 04, 2012, 10:19:07 PM

TLDR: Sorry to the fans of TES that feel betrayed, but frankly I am a much bigger DAOC fan than TES fan, and I'm glad things came out like this.  I hope I'm not alone.

If they'd named it DAOC2, I doubt any of us would feel betrayed. The problem is that when they did this with WAR, it didn't work.

This. DAOC2? sounds grand. DAOC2 masquerading as TESO? er. what?

Honestly? TESO should be all of the maps they've produced in one setting, with all sorts of random crap inhabiting every nook and cranny. Make it big. No, even bigger. Seriously. Make it skill based. Balance? F that. Allow balance to be emergent based on the rock / paper / scissor nature of heavy / light / cloth armor and what those allow you to do. Quests? More emergence based on NPC's reacting to what the mob's are doing.  In game guild factions? You can belong to one and that creates interaction possibilities. Mages Guild hates the thieves Guild who hates the Fighters guild and every hates the damn Brotherhood. Eternal war between Daedric and Divine factions. Get infected by lycanthropy or vampirism? fine. You're now PVP to everyone. Get caught stealing on a thieves quest? PVP+ till you die or escape. End game? fuck you. The end game is you've acquired mastery of one skill. Now go do shit. train other players. Clear out a Vampire warren. Whatever. If you want to raid dungeon instances go play something else.

In other words a big assed sandbox. would it succeed? No cue. But at least it would be different. And feel like a TES game.

What they proposed? None of the above.

Meh. Whatever. MMO's are boring anyway. Someone else go kill the rats.

/nerdrage

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Reply #137 on: May 04, 2012, 11:33:10 PM

I can only hope this one fails on an epic scale, and then serves as a warning to developers that try to follow the same path in the future.

Don't we have SWOR for that already, or hasn't it imploded enough yet to put up the "beware, toxicly stale ideas here!"-sign up?
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Reply #138 on: May 05, 2012, 12:25:42 AM


-The game uses a hotbar to activate skills like other traditional MMOs
-Visually it looks like other Hero Engine MMOs like SWTOR
-The general art style is kind of like RIFT or Everquest 2
-There will be no player housing
-There will be no NPC romances or marriage
-"It needs to be comfortable for people who are comign in from a typical massively multiplayer game that has the same control mechanisms, but it also has to appeal to Skyrim players."
-"Recreateing the freedom Elder Scrolls players expect within the World of Warcraft-style mechanics Zenimax Online is using for this MMO would be impossible without changing the way that players interact with the world."
-The game uses MMORPG genre standards such as classes, experience points, and other traditional MMORPG progression mechanics, but they try to present it "around the core fantasy presented by traditiona Elder Scrolls games" such as traveling around and righting wrongs or seeking riches
-The game will have raids and heroic modes for its dungeons as end game content in addition to faction PvP
-Public dungeons are essentially instances that aren't actually instanced, so anyone can be in them, so imagine a World of Warcraft dungeon that featured everyone on the server in the area instead of just your party
-There are standard instanced dungeons as well
-The combat is based around a stamina bar which you can use to sprint, block, interrupt, and break incapacitating effects
-Blocking is the primary focus of these abilities, and can do things like stopping the secondary effects of attacks such as an ice spell slowing you
-Stamina also applies to PvP, so stamina management (and wearing down your enemy's stamina) is important, as your crowd control abilities might be on a long cooldown, and if you use them before the enemy player runs out of stamina, they will probably just block the effect
-ZeniMax feels that having the stamina bar will help break down the Holy Trinity as stamina allows you to do things like tank
-However, healing is still a big part of the game

Interest killed, mainly due to the bolded bits.

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Reply #139 on: May 05, 2012, 05:22:54 AM

Seriously. Make it skill based. Balance? F that. Allow balance to be emergent based on the rock / paper / scissor nature of heavy / light / cloth armor and what those allow you to do.

Skyrim with respecs.  Combine with aggressive patching for massive balance issues.  Launch it on all platforms.  Sleep on a bed stuffed with dollar bills.
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