Preview Weekend In Review - From Mark J

[schild]

AoC before release (like a week before) and AoC a week after was a world of difference.

[Nebu]

AoC before release (like a week before) and AoC a week after was a world of difference.

Fair enough. 

[Mrbloodworth]

Unfair comparison. AoC has better combat than anything else on the market. Whereas Vanguard has NOTHING better than anything on the market. If AoC actually implemented all the changes they've touted and made them work, guess what, I'd resub in an instant. I still want to play my assassin and PoM. And I don't even like priests.

I wasn't meaning to make a direct comparison.  It was more of an over-the-top comment for effect. 

I still haven't played AoC beyond the time I dabbled in beta.  You'll crush me when I mention that I still enjoyed vanguard more than the time I spent in AoC.  The jousting required to be effective with melee early on really turned me off to the game mechanics. 

Yeah, some people will just be more comfortable with the more mainstream MMORPG combat systems (Auto attack, Targeting/lock)... AOC is still more a FPS/like experience in that regard (No autoattack, Aim required/directional attacks, Moving out of the way is valid/required), and definitely isn't for everyone.

I wonder if its valid to say:  "if your not into FPS, or action games, you wont really like AOC's core combat system."


Anywhooooo, got a group of about 5, and i went a bought them all the target boxes, so we are prepared to get our first glimpse of Warhammer.

[Khaldun]

AoC before release (like a week before) and AoC a week after was a world of difference.

What, did they have working classes and lots of higher-level content the week before release and then took it out a week after release? AoC had a better combat mechanic and a relatively tightly scripted introductory experience and that's about it: the rest was a Potemkin Village, propped up to impress the Tsarinas.

[schild]

The week before release nothing worked right. The week after release, the first 10% of the game worked right. Don't be a jackass.

Edit: Well, to be fair, the first 40 levels worked right. Short of a handful of instances.

[Tarami]

Yeah, some people will just be more comfortable with the more mainstream MMORPG combat systems (Auto attack, Targeting/lock)... AOC is still more a FPS/like experience in that regard (No autoattack, Aim required/directional attacks, Moving out of the way is valid/required), and definitely isn't for everyone.

I wonder if its valid to say:  "if your not into FPS, or action games, you wont really like AOC's core combat system."

Anywhooooo, got a group of about 5, and i went a bought them all the target boxes, so we are prepared to get our first glimpse of Warhammer.

I can say it's not a valid for me. I like FPS and "fast-paced" games alot, but I play them for other reasons than I play MMOs. I actually prefer my MMOs to be kinda slow, since it lets me focus on (and derive entertainment from) other aspects of the game.

I thought the combat pacing was rather jarring since the rest of the game was as slow as other dikus. AoC was something akin Diablo in combat but with progress bars for opening doors. The rest of the game should have been as fast (including spell casting, damnit) as the melee combat was.

[Johny Cee]

Yeah, some people will just be more comfortable with the more mainstream MMORPG combat systems (Auto attack, Targeting/lock)... AOC is still more a FPS/like experience in that regard (No autoattack, Aim required/directional attacks, Moving out of the way is valid/required), and definitely isn't for everyone.

I wonder if its valid to say:  "if your not into FPS, or action games, you wont really like AOC's core combat system."


Anywhooooo, got a group of about 5, and i went a bought them all the target boxes, so we are prepared to get our first glimpse of Warhammer.

I like FPS games fine, and I thought AoC's melee combat was terrible.

Anytime your supposedly tactically deep game devolves into "who can circle strafe/joust and spam one or two buttons the best" with a side of "who has the best ping" than obviously you've fucked up somewhere.

With MMOs, diku or otherwise, I want a mix of reflex, movement, choice of abilities, and measure/counter-measure.  DAoC at end game,  I could end up using up to three quickbars worth of abilities, spells, and items/consumables in certain situations not to mention about a dozen keybound commands.

Of course,  you still could get mezzed-nuked-nuked-nuked by the sorceror with DI bot, but....

[Mrbloodworth]

Like i said. some people will just be more comfortable with the more mainstream MMORPG combat systems.

EDIT: Also, i have personality hated the large amount of buttons that you gather with such system. I mean, god dam.

[cevik]

Like i said. some people will just be more comfortable with the more mainstream MMORPG combat systems.

But the way that WAR plays right now, it hardly feels like a mainstream mmorpg combat system.  Typically either you have a sloppy slow response but a queue so you don't have to time the next keystroke (LotRO as an example) or a nice responsive system that is timing dependent (WoW as an example).  Right now WAR feels mushy and unresponsive, but it totally timing dependent.  I suspect it'll be a game killer for a lot of people.

[amiable]

Like i said. some people will just be more comfortable with the more mainstream MMORPG combat systems.

But the way that WAR plays right now, it hardly feels like a mainstream mmorpg combat system.  Typically either you have a sloppy slow response but a queue so you don't have to time the next keystroke (LotRO as an example) or a nice responsive system that is timing dependent (WoW as an example).  Right now WAR feels mushy and unresponsive, but it totally timing dependent.  I suspect it'll be a game killer for a lot of people.

This is being said a lot but I think it is a YMMV kind of thing.  I didn't have any issues with the responsiveness. I felt it was different from WoW and Lotro, but not anything that wasn't workable.  I was annoyed with the "you must use this ability on a groupmate" when I had a groupmate/myself targetted. But other than that, I do not think it is as bad as some folk are making out.

[Ghambit]

You have one chance to make a first impression.  Do you think Vanguard could turn out an expansion that would bring customers back in droves?  I don't think so either. 

Unfair comparison. AoC has better combat than anything else on the market. Whereas Vanguard has NOTHING better than anything on the market. If AoC actually implemented all the changes they've touted and made them work, guess what, I'd resub in an instant. I still want to play my assassin and PoM. And I don't even like priests.

/signed

[Morfiend]

Update from Mark.

Folks,

Well, things have been, as usual, busy here at Mythic so I have lots of news to share. So, without further ado and no SNL references, here's the update on my update:

1) Significantly improved NPC pathing - Okay, in all fairness it wouldn't have taken much to improve on what we showed you folks during the PW. However, the NPC pathing is back to where it needs to be and while it still isn't perfect, well, it's a heck of a lot closer than it was just a short time ago. We identified a whole lot of bugs and squashed them.

2) Improved pet commands and responsivness - Well, pretty much same as above. Pets will no longer act as if obeying an order from you was the last thing in this world that they wanted to do.

3) Fixed an issue with textures blurring - Nothing like looking at textures through a blurred lens to make things look really sharp eh? Major improvements in and more OTW.

4) Enhanced Global Cooldown Mechanic - Well, for one the GCD actually shows the correct cooldown time and not the rounded up cooldown time (Hey, what a great idea, let's make it seem slower than it is. WOOT!). The slop timer is working fine right now and we'll continue to look at making the GCD and combat in general more responsive.

5) Continuing to improve Client Stability - As always, lots of fixes going in here. The client is supposed to be more stable (and looks like it so far) but until we get the masses back in...

6) Added new Graphics Settings and seeking more feedback from testers to guide future improvements. You asked for it, you got it. Well, in all fairness we were going to put these in anyway but it never hurts to nudge us a bit at times.

7) Target Nearest Target improved - Yeah! One of my pet peeves addressed.

8) Renown Gear changes and Potency of Potions increased. Tweaking, adding, subtracting, in other words (don't say "nerf", we're still in beta!) balancing.

9) Increased bonus for medal winners in PQs. PQs are supposed to be fun, joyous and not grindy. We'll continue tweaking and changing them wherever we need to do that to make it so #1. (okay, a ST reference)

10) Added more loot bags in Tier 1 PQs - Boy, it's going to be rather crowded when we launch so we just upped the loot for the Tier 1 PQs. We'll do the same to T2 as needed. And when the rush is over, we'll tweak downwards.

So, in terms of some other good stuff, lots and lots and lots of bugs fixed and lots of new stuff added to the ToK. But wait, there's more and we'll address some of it next week as well as more coming info in the next update.

Oh, and there's still no such thing as a miracle patch so don't expect one here. Just a ton of fixes, additions and adjustments. We have another major patch coming as well before launch. We don't believe in miracle patches (miracle whip is a whole other subject) here at Mythic but simply hard work and a talented team.

Much respect to my team that is really doing one heck of a job getting things ready for launch.

Mark

[tazelbain]

Booooooooooooooooooo

EDIT: Warhammer is  The amount of gushing over a simple post about a hypothetical patch is pathetic.

[Rasix]

que?

[Triforcer]

Booooooooooooooooooo

EDIT: Warhammer is  The amount of gushing over a simple post about a hypothetical patch is pathetic.

The post detailing the patch...was the post before yours.  Or did Schild delete 1000 posts in between? 

[schild]

I don't get it either.

I fear that I'm going to be saying the same sort of things here as I am about AoC, only in a totally different light. Every single patch:

"Is Chickening Still in?" will replace/is the new "Do crafting and player cities still suck?"

[Kirth]

"Is Chickening Still in?" will replace/is the new "Do crafting and player cities still suck?"

You saying crafting/player cities sucking in AoC was a intended design feature? 

[Tannhauser]

Some good info there.  I am glad they are upping the loot in the PQ's.  I was unsatisfied having gone thru the DE 1st Tier three times in a row and not once getting a loot bag.  I had to come back as a 6th Sorc just to come in 2nd.

On a side note, is it just me or do Champion and Hero mobs hit like Mack trucks?  It was just a jarring difference after playing patty-cake with normal mobs.

GCD still worries me.  I am guessing the fix was the slop timer?  Was that in the preview weekend? 

Last issue, not sure it's the client's fault.  When I play I often freeze up for a second.  It's like I enter a new area and I freeze, but the new area is only 500' (in game terms) away.  Does it freeze because new textures are loading?  It doesn't do it when I am fighting, only when I am traveling.

[tazelbain]

Some good info there.  I am glad they are upping the loot in the PQ's.  I was unsatisfied having gone thru the DE 1st Tier three times in a row and not once getting a loot bag.  I had to come back as a 6th Sorc just to come in 2nd.

On a side note, is it just me or do Champion and Hero mobs hit like Mack trucks?  It was just a jarring difference after playing patty-cake with normal mobs.

GCD still worries me.  I am guessing the fix was the slop timer?  Was that in the preview weekend? 

Last issue, not sure it's the client's fault.  When I play I often freeze up for a second.  It's like I enter a new area and I freeze, but the new area is only 500' (in game terms) away.  Does it freeze because new textures are loading?  It doesn't do it when I am fighting, only when I am traveling.

Champs are not bad, usually 2 people you can take them.  Hero have huge variety.  Heros range you only need 3 people to a full group.  There was a Chaos CH. 4 Hero wolf who was 2 shotting our Chosen, we need needed 4 Zealots to keep him alive.

Slop timer wasn't in the PVE

Most of my CTD are loading related, the same spot in Altdolf has crashed me 3 times.

[Vinadil]

You have one chance to make a first impression.  Do you think Vanguard could turn out an expansion that would bring customers back in droves?  I don't think so either. 

Unfair comparison. AoC has better combat than anything else on the market. Whereas Vanguard has NOTHING better than anything on the market. If AoC actually implemented all the changes they've touted and made them work, guess what, I'd resub in an instant. I still want to play my assassin and PoM. And I don't even like priests.

/signed

AoC combat felt more and more like button spamming as I levelled up (only made it to 44 as a Bear Shaman... maybe it was just my class choice). It is NOTHING like FPS in my experience (limited I admit).  When I play an FPS I click my mouse to shoot stuff.  I don't have to trigger a hotkey and then press 3 more buttons in the right order to shoot ONE weapon.  AoC may be new, but it is not a step in the FPS direction in my mind.  And, with the nice "running-lines-in-gym-class" quest/progression system they used you had to kill the same stupid trash mobs over, and over, and over... I was wishing for auto attack as soon as I left Tortage.

[Paelos]

When they open the beta back up, my main goal will be to go into high population areas to test out the client crashes and lag. If it stands up, I will buy the game. Otherwise, the pre-order is getting cancelled. I liked everything I got to do in the previous test, but not being able to move beyond a slideshow and then crashing during PQs pretty much put a damper on that.

[HRose]

"Is Chickening Still in?" will replace/is the new "Do crafting and player cities still suck?"

Because you want uber players ganking noobs or because you also support delevelling?

Or maybe you just want the PvE accessible?

[schild]

I'd prefer develing to any of these current solutions.

[Koyasha]

Personally I prefer uber players ganking noobs to the idiotic chickening mechanic.  Deleveling is ideal, but between chicken and nothing, nothing is better.

Chickening alone is making me consider whether or not to cancel my preorder, too.

[ajax34i]

As a chicken, do you still have control of your character?  Or does it behave like being sheeped in WoW?

Cause, they should give the chickens a fast running ability, and let them explore the zone anyway.

[amiable]

As a chicken, do you still have control of your character?  Or does it behave like being sheeped in WoW?

Cause, they should give the chickens a fast running ability, and let them explore the zone anyway.

You have control of your character as a chicken. 

I'm not sure why there is so much moaning and gnashing of teeth about the chicken mechanic...  On core it just means you can enter Tier 1 and 2 (not sure about tier 3) RvR zones, and can't attack players in lower tiers.  Who cares?  It is their way of dealing with the ever-present probelm of ganking that is antithetical to bringing new folks into the game.  To be honest Ithink they should just do away with Open servers alltogether.  It just gives an excuse for the h4rdc0re to flame up the forums with how awesome they are based on server type.

But seriously, why is the chicken mechanic going to ruin your game experience?

[Triforcer]

Exploration.  Like everyone has been saying. 

[Megrim]

The game world is not that big, you'll probably have covered most of it during levelling.

[amiable]

Exploration.  Like everyone has been saying. 

On core you can explore everything but the lower tier PvP zones as a non-chicken.  And if you really want to explore the PvP zones, you can do that as well (just chickenized).

[HRose]

But seriously, why is the chicken mechanic going to ruin your game experience?

For me simply because there are much better solutions that would also address other outstanding issues.

For others I think it is about the hate toward unnecessary, artificial walls.

[Slayerik]

Is this not a game of WAR?

Give a hefty renown (whatever renown is) bonus if you team up and kill some high level ganker. Make a game so that two level 20's can actually take on a level 40. The game is about WAR, yet they pussify it. Give your players the ability to kill the idiot gankers. Even if it as simple as evening the power gap between levels some.

Chickening. Sounds like a chicken dev move to me.

[tazelbain]

I like the chicken mechanic better than walling everything off.

The delevel would be expensive mechanic to create and would create a new set of balance issues. Not really worth it compared to the other issues.

[Ingmar]

Chickening isn't great, but I'm not sure the alternatives are better. Deleveling might have the effect of moving too much population out of higher tier RVR for example. I also don't think their current upleveling for scenarios scales your gear bonuses, etc., so there's additional complications that they'd need to handle there.

[HRose]

Chickening isn't great, but I'm not sure the alternatives are better. Deleveling might have the effect of moving too much population out of higher tier RVR for example.

Since when spreading out the players and keep low levels areas "alive" and populated is bad?

[Mrbloodworth]

In my mind, the chickening means they are going to have to constantly add to the top end of the game, as no one will ever be able to "go back" to lower levels.

It’s going to be even worse than Wow's marginalizing of content when patches or expansions come out IMO. Not to mention the gap between friends is going to be huge, and you can forget playing with each other outside of making alts..