Preview Weekend In Review - From Mark J

[cevik]

Will they fix that (and the myriad of other issues) before release?  I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Determining whether WAR is quality based on it's current issues is pretty silly. On release day it will be a AAA MMORPG. Whether it's a good enough one is subjective and remains to be seen.

It's 3 weeks until release.  I've never worked on a successful software project that wasn't feature frozen at 3 weeks before release, and nothing I've ever worked on has been as complex (or nearly as design intensive) as a mmog.  It would literally take a miracle between now and release to make the game AAA quality.

Miracle patches have happened, so I'm certainly willing to wait and see, but it's by no means it's a given that the game will be quality on day one.

Not to mention that the original assessment was that WAR currently feels like a AAA title, which it does not.

[Mrbloodworth]

I think AOC is going to surprise some. No, im not currently subbed for many of the same reasons as others here. I also would not make such direct comparisons, especially tech wise, and resources wise for updates and fixes.

/flamesuit

[Morfiend]

Not to mention that the original assessment was that WAR currently feels like a AAA title, which it does not.

I guess that depends on what you consider AAA title. So far the only game I have played around release that even close to this level was WoW. I don't think I can recall another game that to me felt as much of a AAA title.

But then a lot of that would be personal preference.

[squirrel]

Stop using AAA as a indicator of quality ffs. It's not. Like A-list in Hollywood, AAA simply means that a title is well-financed, has a large (AAA) budget, a experienced dev team and a committed publisher. That's it. AAA games are big studio games with big budgets and wide distribution. THIS DOES NOT MEAN THEY'RE GOOD IN ANY WAY. There are literally dozens of AAA titles that sucked ass in the last few years. They are still AAA games, they just sucked.

EDIT: bad spellng

[Lakov_Sanite]

I would say games that randomly crash you to desktop for no reason are NOT in fact AAA,A+, SS rank, awesome #1 best ever titles. Games which make it so I can't play them don't get the number one slot, sorry.

MMO/Console/handheld it doesn't matter, if the games just dies and i lose all my progress(and yes if you crash near the end of a PQ and come back all the work before won't  count) then it's not AAA or whatever, it's just 'ok'

[Mrbloodworth]

Stop using AAA as a indicator of quality ffs. It's not. Like A-list in Hollywood, AAA simply means that a title is well-financed, has a large (AAA) budget, a experienced dev team and a committed publisher. That's it. AAA games are big studio games with big budgets and wide distribution. THIS DOES NOT MEAN THEY'RE GOOD IN ANY WAY. There are literally dozens of AAA titles that sucked ass in the last few years. They are still AAA games, they just sucked.

EDIT: bad spellng

I wasn't going to say anything, i was just 

[cevik]

Stop using AAA as a indicator of quality ffs. It's not. Like A-list in Hollywood, AAA simply means that a title is well-financed, has a large (AAA) budget, a experienced dev team and a committed publisher. That's it. AAA games are big studio games with big budgets and wide distribution. THIS DOES NOT MEAN THEY'RE GOOD IN ANY WAY. There are literally dozens of AAA titles that sucked ass in the last few years. They are still AAA games, they just sucked.

EDIT: bad spellng

I think we have a different definition of AAA, so I'm willing to concede the point, but I read Morfiend's original statement of:

WAR feels like a AAA title, while AoC was a C trying to show you an A.

Meaning that WAR felt like it was a quality product, which it currently does not.  If it means that it feels like a higher budget title, I'd argue that it certainly doesn't feel like a high budget title like WoW or Halo or any of the other AAA games that have come out recently.  It feels about on par with AoC.

EDIT:  This is how I define AAA: http://www.gameproducer.net/2006/05/26/what-are-aaa-titles/  And WAR does not meet about half the requirements on that list.

EDIT2:  And if budget is the only consideration for something being AAA then the original statement was still silly, since AoC and WAR had very close to the same budget.

[Mrbloodworth]

EDIT2:  And if budget is the only consideration for something being AAA then the original statement was still silly, since AoC and WAR had very close to the same budget.

I bet they didn't, do you have a source? or is it a guess? Models alone, if outsourced would cost Funcom mush more than in WAR.

[Trippy]

WAR has a lot more content than AoC, at least from what I understand of the content in AoC (I didn't play it much). However AoC's basic gameplay mechanics was/is a lot more polished than WAR's is. They are still fiddling with the fundamentals in WAR like the timing mechanics of your abilities. That shit should've been nailed down in alpha or early beta.

[sutekh13]

You've become a parody of your former self.

So says the man working for the man.

[Paelos]

WAR's not ready yet. The AAA - AA - whatever stuff is pure nonesense. The game is crashing. If nothing else, that's the absolute worst kind of bug you can have, and it's not been resolved yet. Here's the thing about that, you have a finite time table of less time than you have been Beta testing previously to fix a crashing bug that should have been corrected a long time ago. That's a worry for me personally.

If at release the game isn't crashing anymore, then I'd say the rest of the stuff will sort itself out through the normal MMO patching/crying/gnashing process.

[Venkman]

It's not ready, it's coming anyway, and it's an MMO. Anyone really surprised? Can anyone really expect any different from a company doing these for as long as DAoC has? They're as much the establishment as SOE is, except they've not had the opportunity to launch nearly as many games and therefore are learning at a different rate.

And it's probably going to do fine anyway. Because it's out because WotLK, everyone went back into wait-and-see mode on AoC, and it's a good alternative to those looking for a WoW instead of learning a radically different game.

[Ghambit]

I think AOC is going to surprise some. No, im not currently subbed for many of the same reasons as others here. I also would not make such direct comparisons, especially tech wise, and resources wise for updates and fixes.

/flamesuit

That's what I'm sayin.  AoC is primed to surprise, whilst WAR is primed to fail.  That's just the feeling I got when playing BOTH titles recently.  I'll re-assess the situation when OB hits, but I'm not optimistic honestly.  The inherent lack of combat depth in WAR is enough for me to say this.  No amount of RvR will help you here...  Dammit, I'm h8ting again.

[MahrinSkel]

That's what I'm sayin.  AoC is primed to surprise, whilst WAR is primed to fail.  

You never get a second chance to make a first impression.  Although AOC will almost certainly retain enough subscribers to be a business success, as far as the perception of being the New Hotness and taking over the newbie stream, they blew it.  Those who are still playing AoC will, like those that managed to stick past the launch issues of AO, feel that their game is under-appreciated and not getting the success it deserves.  But it is what it is, and it is permanently in the category of "Also Ran".

Not that WAR couldn't wind up in the same boat.  But AOC is not "Primed to succeed", because that ship has already sailed.

--Dave

[lamaros]

I think WAR will do ok. It'll manage better than LotRO or AoC in the long run I think. I'm saying this as someone who hasn't played it. I am judging this off the following:

I had no desire to play LotRO once I logged in in early beta. The game was on my PC for 5mins. I had no desire to even look at AoC. But I do have some feeling of "hey, might give WAR a go". Therefore WAR is better than those games.

Dammit, I'm h8ting again.

Heighting is not a word. Fuckwit.

[Hawkbit]

That's what I'm sayin.  AoC is primed to surprise, whilst WAR is primed to fail.  

You never get a second chance to make a first impression.  Although AOC will almost certainly retain enough subscribers to be a business success, as far as the perception of being the New Hotness and taking over the newbie stream, they blew it.  Those who are still playing AoC will, like those that managed to stick past the launch issues of AO, feel that their game is under-appreciated and not getting the success it deserves.  But it is what it is, and it is permanently in the category of "Also Ran".

Not that WAR couldn't wind up in the same boat.  But AOC is not "Primed to succeed", because that ship has already sailed.

--Dave

Someone rolled up in here and talked some sense.  

I think AoC burned too many people to get enough subs to make it into a AAA game.  Frankly, with the way they treated the beta, NDA and info for launch (how we forget the lies and half-truths), I likely won't buy another FC product again unless it's licenced by the second coming of christ.  

OTOH, WAR showed a functional game.  I personally never once experienced a CTD during all of beta.  Yes, I had the mob pathing issues during preview week (not before) and some occasional light SWG rubberbanding in heavy rvr.  But a full-on CTD I never saw.  They did this preview weekend well, imo.  I think it got a lot of support from the playerbase and Mythic seems honestly open about how they're dealing with the issues.  That goes a loooong way in my book.  

[croaker69]

  I played the AoC fileplanet beta for a few weeks.  Based on that I never considered buying the game.  Not even close.  I got into WAR beta maybe 2 weeks before preview weekend.  I am pre-ordered and looking forward to release.

  I've played a few different classes up to 20 and it is just a much higher quality game than AoC was at the same point.  Mythic has not lived up to my expectations for where they should be after delaying to a Sept. release though.  The pause last winter and change of direction seems to have really played havoc with their scheduling.

  The complaints about responsiveness I can see but seem to be the loudest from those who play alot of WoW.  I wonder how much of that is just that it is different rather than bad.  I played some WoW but not hardcore and also played alot of other games in between stints so I think it helped me not being so used to one UI feel.

  The other complaints just didn't affect me since I only CTD'd a few times and I could care less about the animation issues since I don't stare critically at my character while in combat.  The layout of the world and the on-rails progression through it put me off at first but has grown on me.  You do feel like you are in the middle of a heated battle most of the time. 

[trias_e]

WAR's not ready yet. The AAA - AA - whatever stuff is pure nonesense. The game is crashing. If nothing else, that's the absolute worst kind of bug you can have, and it's not been resolved yet. Here's the thing about that, you have a finite time table of less time than you have been Beta testing previously to fix a crashing bug that should have been corrected a long time ago. That's a worry for me personally.

I never crashed once during preview weekend, so I will admit I have a skewed perspective of the game's readiness for release.  But you may be an outlier as well.

[cevik]

I never crashed once during preview weekend, so I will admit I have a skewed perspective of the game's readiness for release.  But you may be an outlier as well.

I'd wager he's not an outlier since Mark Jacobs felt he directly needed to address that issue in his state of the union. 

[McCow]

A lot of rose coloured glasses in this thread.   MMO releases always equal drama.

Let's take for example WoW release which everyone seems to treat as the gold standard AAA title.  

It was the night before release (and all through the forums) people frothed saying it wasn't ready.

I seem to recall Blizzard altered the animations 1 month prior to release because they were extremely bad in laggy situations.  But that wasn't a big deal...  The bigger deal was that entire classes weren't added (Ie: hunter) till really close to release.   Other classes didn't have entire talent trees (Warlock and Pally).  

Other stuff off the top of my head includes:   Loot lag (as a DBA I recall laughing at the DB tuning job posted on the Blizz website a couple days after launch); The warrior rage mechanic, to something that didn't generate rage at all,  and taunt changed prior to launch after it being in beta for ever; Bandaging in combat change after launch; An entire cluster offline for a week+; Honour/Unhonorable kills not working/not even in the game; Hero classes; No cloak/helm graphics; No Deuling; No racial traits and Item durability going to 0% when using spirit healed; etc etc.

If an MMO can remain accessible through launch it's well on it's way to being successful.  30 days free is genius when you think about it.

[trias_e]

I was simply pointing out that the frequency of your crashing/technical problems can definitely skew your overall picture of a game, not that crashing wasn't a problem at all.  I don't know if he is an outlier or not.  

AoC was absolutely horrible for me.  If it wasn't for the majority of people on this forum claiming it was decent, I would have thought it was quite possibly the worst game I had ever played from a technical standpoint.  It clearly wasn't that bad in the longview.

Perhaps this is one reason we get such a big split down the middle here:  Some have a ton of trouble with it, others have none.  Of course, the outliers are really a big deal when you are dealing with technical problems.  The people who crash once every 10 hours aren't your concern, it's the people that crash once every 2.  So in that sense, all of those with extremely bad experiences, whether they are outliers or not, need to be focused on the most.

On the other hand,  it is those that are not likely to buy the game at this point.

That was alot of rambling without a point.

[trias_e]

I was thinking about bringing up the loot lag in WoW.  That made the game totally unplayable for stretches of time.

Shit happens in MMORPGs.

[lamaros]

A lot of rose coloured glasses in this thread.   MMO releases always equal drama.

Let's take for example WoW release which everyone seems to treat as the gold standard AAA title. 

It was the night before release (and all through the forums) people frothed saying it wasn't ready.

We did this already in the AoC thread just recently. No need to do it again just yet.

[McCow]

A lot of rose coloured glasses in this thread.   MMO releases always equal drama.

Let's take for example WoW release which everyone seems to treat as the gold standard AAA title. 

It was the night before release (and all through the forums) people frothed saying it wasn't ready.

We did this already in the AoC thread just recently. No need to do it again just yet.

I would apologize but that would require me to read AoC threads.

[Slayerik]

See you guys at 10/18... I predict:

"Meh, going back to WoW to get ready for WOTLK"

People arent going back to WoW to get ready for WotLK.  Reason being, their gear is rendered wack with the expansion, just like what happened with BC.  1 month or so prior to release of WotLK people will dump the game until it actually comes out along with no longer planning Raids.  It'd be a waste of time.  Molton Core was a ghost-instance just before BC came out, and for good reason.  Knowing this, WAR is actually in good shape to "steal" players from WoW just before WotLK comes out... assuming they've polished the game and it's actually fun.   The same can be said for any MMO that releases a month or so before WotLK.

But people still need to stock up on consumables and grind out gold for all those instances they will be wiping in....am i right? :)

[Ragnoros]

 

What is with all the sandy vagina's in here?

This sub forum was doing so well and I was enjoying talk about classes and whatnot.

Cevik, if it's crap and feels terrible, why are you even in this forum? Stop trolling. Let us get bored with it like we do everything else and just bugger the fuck out of here. Go troll politics.

Thanks schild, but after another page and a half I believe no one listened.

Anyway I played the game. Not that anyone cares, but here's my thoughts.
1 Never crashed ONCE. Dunno what yall are doing but I never got one CTD all weekend and I played a bunch.
2 Mobs all worked fine for me. Now in all fairness I played melee classes, but they chased and smacked me around fine.
3 Combat seemed fun, for another diku. Sure the GCD seemed a bit off and a queue or something ould be nice, but it was workable. And they seem to be working on improving it.
4 WAAAAGH! I had fun. Yeah I know thats frowned upon around here, but sue me.

tl;dr
Worked fine for me. I had fun. If you hated it fine. But piss off and bitch at someone who cares.

[Simond]

What is with all the sandy vagina's in here?

This sub forum was doing so well and I was enjoying talk about classes and whatnot.

Welcome to a MMOG about to launch. The gloves are off now. 

[amiable]

Cevik, if it's crap and feels terrible, why are you even in this forum? Stop trolling. Let us get bored with it like we do everything else and just bugger the fuck out of here. Go troll politics.

Thanks schild, but after another page and a half I believe no one listened.

Cevik is like Gunnery Seargent Hartman from "Full Metal Jacket," if you address his points directly his first instinct is to punish you more.

[Simond]

Edit by Trippy: WTF was the point of that image?

[cevik]

Cevik, if it's crap and feels terrible, why are you even in this forum? Stop trolling. Let us get bored with it like we do everything else and just bugger the fuck out of here. Go troll politics.

Thanks schild, but after another page and a half I believe no one listened.

Cevik is like Gunnery Seargent Hartman from "Full Metal Jacket," if you address his points directly his first instinct is to punish you more.

Wow, I'm flattered.  I can't wait until one of you slimy fucking walrus-looking piece of shits kills themselves.  Then my life will truly be complete!

[tkinnun0]

You never get a second chance to make a first impression.

No, you don't, but AoC's first impressions proved that Funcom is capable of taking the next steps in MMO story-telling. Now, if only they could go all the way..

Not that WAR couldn't wind up in the same boat.  But AOC is not "Primed to succeed", because that ship has already sailed.

If their next expansion comes within a year and features 10 more levels, full voice-overs and a new post-20 destiny-quest, I'd imagine they'd win back a lot of subscribers.

[Nebu]

If their next expansion comes within a year and features 10 more levels, full voice-overs and a new post-20 destiny-quest, I'd imagine they'd win back a lot of subscribers.

I HATE HATE HATE games that raise the level cap.  It's completely unnecessary and kills the flow of the game, especially if PvP is somehow involved.  How about expansions that make the game more fun and provide LOTS of new content?  That, I'd like. 

You have one chance to make a first impression.  Do you think Vanguard could turn out an expansion that would bring customers back in droves?  I don't think so either. 

[Abelian75]

No, you don't, but AoC's first impressions proved that Funcom is capable of taking the next steps in MMO story-telling.

Or at least proved they are capable of prototyping the next steps in MMO story-telling so that blizzard can put them into a full-fledged product. ;)

[schild]

You have one chance to make a first impression.  Do you think Vanguard could turn out an expansion that would bring customers back in droves?  I don't think so either. 

Unfair comparison. AoC has better combat than anything else on the market. Whereas Vanguard has NOTHING better than anything on the market. If AoC actually implemented all the changes they've touted and made them work, guess what, I'd resub in an instant. I still want to play my assassin and PoM. And I don't even like priests.

[Nebu]

Unfair comparison. AoC has better combat than anything else on the market. Whereas Vanguard has NOTHING better than anything on the market. If AoC actually implemented all the changes they've touted and made them work, guess what, I'd resub in an instant. I still want to play my assassin and PoM. And I don't even like priests.

I wasn't meaning to make a direct comparison.  It was more of an over-the-top comment for effect. 

I still haven't played AoC beyond the time I dabbled in beta.  You'll crush me when I mention that I still enjoyed vanguard more than the time I spent in AoC.  The jousting required to be effective with melee early on really turned me off to the game mechanics.