f13.net

Folks,

Okay, it was a wild and crazy weekend in WAR and while some of you might be tempted to go all Samurai on us for a couple of the bugs, overall things went very, very well. As long-time readers of my notes now, I won’t do a Nick Winters and we are anything but pathological liars so we’ll always own up when we make a mistake and we made a couple here. So, let’s talk amongst ourselves and have a little chat about the top nine list of the biggest issues and where we stand in regards to them.

(1) Client Crashes – I’ve talked about this as one of the reasons why we didn’t release the NDA until recently. Here’s the current status.
- Just a little too many currently. While we are better off than we were in beta, we must do better still before release.
- A number of players will lower spec machines had more CTDs than higher spec machines.
- Number of fixes already in pipeline. They are working their way through our testing servers and will be pushed to the players once they have been vetted internally.
- Engineering time for CTD issue has remained heavily committed; our top engineers are working on the various issues.

(2) Monster Pathing and AI – Well, what can I say other than not even all of King Tut’s wealth could have made us feel better for messing up on this one. Well, maybe all his wealth. 
- “Yes, that monster seems to be behaving a little oddly”. Monster responsiveness was very sketchy, odd pauses and tethering issues.
- “Oh, was I supposed to go in that direction?” Pathing sometimes wonky - mobs get stuck or go in wrong direction.
- Utter confusion at times as both monsters and pets will engage and disengage seemingly at random
- Internal server optimizations last week broke the pathing/AI. And I mean really, really broke it. This truly was a “Opps, we broke this code” moment for us and we don’t have many of them.
- Going to ensure that this problem is fixed this week. As I said in my first Preview Weekend, this is a major concern for us. Fortunately we have no underwater combat in this game or some of the NPCs may have been appropriately dubbed land sharks.

(3) Pet Responsiveness – With similar issues to Monster Pathing and AI, this was not our finest hour.
- Need to transfer "combat responsiveness" fixes to pets - have pet move immediately on button press.
- “Oh no, Mr. Bill!” Pets suffer from same pathing and lack of response as general monsters. Pets hopping around like they were headed to Del Staters.


(4) Global Cooldown Timers –This seems to be a hot topic for players to talk about. However, things aren’t always as they seem.
- Reality and perception are two different things, Warhammer has a GCD of 1.4s, WoW has 1.5s
- “Ability not ready” messaging needs to be improve, a sound effect if Global Cooldown in effect, maybe more cowbell?
- Need to improve on the feeling of sluggishness of the GCD and UI. Bug with display where our timer shows 2s when it is really 1.4
- The next best thing to a queue is? We will add in better "slop timer" to allow players 0.3s extra to pre-queue a second ability followup.

(5) Better animations
- So much more coming in the next two versions of the client. We are currently incorporating serious amounts of new animations into the game. Hopefully nobody will sneak a coneheads model into the game.
- Look at what my XXXX does now? Over the next month we will address many class-attack specific issues across all 20 careers.
- “U think you can dance?” Nope, but we have added new racial animations for movement, fidgets and redid some emotes.

(6) Texture Blurring
- Textures are currently cached in a manner that results in blurriness on entering a region.
- We will look at adding a client scalar.

(7) Client Performance – This is one of those issues
- Need better scalers on effects, sounds, graphics, etc to help lower end machines (already lots of additions to coders)
- This thing loves memory like Dan Aykroyd loves bass. We have already improved the memory consumption of the client and taken 100M out of current test best.

( Targeting, Camera, etc
- Currently our targeting system differs from many MMOs in terms of our features and how we go about things. We will identify and make a more standard initial setup but allow flexibility.
- Will add additional keybinding selections to allow flexibility

(9) Renown rank gear
- Unfortunately, a new bug (well an old bug we fixed and then managed to break again) which allowed Rank 10 RR 6 players can go to Tier 2 to get better gear and then come back to Tier 1 and own scenarios. We are currently working on a fix.

I hope you enjoyed the Preview Weekend and we thank you for your interest and we hope, patronage of our game.

Guess what folks, that’s the news and I am outta here!

Mark

P.S. The reason for all the Saturday Night Live references was that a poster or two dared me to work a certain phrase into the update. I kinda took that and ran with it.

It went from 2 times an hour to once every 3 outside of Altdorf over the course of 2 weeks.  I am guessing the closed beta didn't have a large variety on video cards.

I never want to see or hear Mark Jacobs use the phrase "underwater combat" ever again.

I guess I am just not... efficient enough.  But, the whole spellcasting thing has never been more of an issue in WAR than it has been in every other MMo I have played.  After a while I have my powerbars memorized and never have to look at them.  I just use the skills necessary as the time calls for it.  The flow of battle means that I am rarely standing still long enough to "chain" anything anyway.  Perhaps classes with more insta-cast type spells would suffer from this, but my Runepriest has very few issues.

Another problem is difference between the animation speed and the GCD.  Many spell animations are longer than 1.4.  So there is a time between when the GCD ends and when the animation ends where you skill looks like you can send in another command but you can't.

Er...at 600 latency, I'm not sure there is anything Mythic can do to make your experience more enjoyable.  Buy you a house stateside maybe? 

I dunno... they could, maybe, implement a queuing system like WOW [and probably X more MMOGs].

WoW has no queue for abilities. I'm used to "Not Ready Yet" messages because my frost mage has been saying them to me for the past three years.

WoW has no queue for abilities. I'm used to "Not Ready Yet" messages because my frost mage has been saying them to me for the past three years.

So EA-Mythic are planning to fix these problems within three weeks, presumably via some sort of...miracle patch?  :awesome_for_real:

So EA-Mythic are planning to fix these problems within three weeks, presumably via some sort of...miracle patch?  :awesome_for_real:

The CTD's being the exception depending on frequency.

Yeah, pretty sure WoW does exactly what he's talking about, and always has (except it only recently was added for cast times)

EDIT: Of course the truly frightening thing from my perspective is that CE beta couldn't start/NDA couldn't be lifted until there was a miracle patch, but then the miracle patch seemed to break a lot of stuff (the mob pathing was HORRENDOUS) and not really fix the critical things (CTD anyone?).  Now there is going to be a new miracle patch to fix all these newly broken things that will go relatively untested (I assume "open" beta will be about 4-5 days, considering then they have to get things ready for the pre-release keys and then release). 

Also, mob pathing was fine until the Preview Weekend patch. Also, the patch did a LOT to fix the CTD issues. Before the preview weekend I was CTD about once every 10 to 20 minutes. During the preview weekend I think I had maybe 2 all weekend, and I played quite a lot.

From seeing how much stuff gets fixed each patch, I have faith that if they say they are working on them, then a real fix will come soon. Unlike AoC patches that have to rank up there with the worst dev confidence ever.

DOOOOMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!

Marking this so I can quote it in the "WHAT WENT RONG!!?!?!" thread.

I REALLY think we're abusing the term "miracle patch" here.  A patch to fix mob pathing is not a miracle patch, that's just a patch.

The "miracle" is not making the deadline.  It's turning a shit game to good just in time for release.  YMMV on whether WAR is a shit game.

Well, a game where you can level just by standing still and nuking any mob you want at range until it's dead with no risk qualifies as pretty shitty in my book.  And we're not talking about some "sooper sekrit" exploit to do it, it happens with any mob.

The next best thing to a queue is?

...and they know the problem, it didn't exist in earlier patches, and they are going to fix it. 

Whatever is said or done, I think Mythic needs to get a little credit for at least acknowledging the problems before the game is released and doing their level best to be honest with the community about the source of the problems and the solution.  PvE mob issues may be an enormous concern to some, but almost everyone I talked to are primarily in this game for the PvP, and rushing to max level via PvE kinda misses the point and really won't put you that far ahead of everyone else anyway. 

On a tangent: Every MMO has some leveling exploit that folks discover the first few weeks of the game that results in someone hitting levle cap far before they should.  I rmemebr WoW had a terrain exploit near the Dwarf zone that let you get into an unfinshed area where you could one shot high levle mobs that had only 1 hit point.  It was fixed, but it took a couple of weeks.

What new and unforeseen problems is the next patch going to cause?

Why do we need the next best thing? Is it impossible to add a queue at all? Just impossible before launch? Or something they don't want to do at all for some esoteric reason? It's not like we're talking insta-hit precasting here. And I suspect this is one of those it's-expected features.

Otherwise, nice to see the feedback returned to the players, particularly in this more informal format. Kudos for that. I do see some extended crunch time though. Good luck to the team!

I think the fact that everyone's obsessing over this pathing bug indicates just how few bugs of this kind the game has compared to most MMO releases other than WoW. 

Who knows?  But I tend to be a "glass-is-half-full" kind of guy, at least when the game itself is enjoyable.  I don't think it is fair to extrapolate that because they made an error on this patch that they are entirely incompetent and every patch is going to be riddled with brokenness.  I'm not saying that they won't make new mistakes, but I am at least willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

As for the CTD problems, in an earlier (non-elder) iteration of the Beta I rarely CTD, then the 3.3 patch came out and the gaem was practically unplayable, but over the past 3 weeks it has steadily gotten more stable.  My CTD's went from 1 every ten minutes to 1 an evening.  Still not perfect but markedly improved.

So what you are saying is that Mythic has a history of patches with this game that cause problems so bad that it makes the game unplayable, but you believe this next patch is going to be perfect because you are an optimist?

Eh, to be fair this isn't really miracle patch material, pretty much just bug fixes and polish.  It's already a pretty solid game, imho.  Performance is good, classes are all fairly fun, plenty of content, etc.

But I tend to be a "glass-is-half-full" kind of guy

Wise man once said: Glass may be half full but it's half full of urine.

No, we're talking about pathing because it was Horizons level of broken over the weekend.

http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/42862

And everyone has said it was working fine before the code got messed up. The devs have admitted it was a "woops" moment, and it will be fixed in the next patch. So far every time they have said that, they have produced.

And you don't understand my concern?  The devs had a "woops" problem they had to fix (CTD).  They said they were going to fix it.  They produced (supposedly, they still have a lot of CTDs for me, I'm shocked that it used to be worse than it is now), but in the mean time they managed to break something else in a horrific way.  Now they are saying "woops" again, but they promise to produce.  The last time we went through this cycle they broke pathing in a terrible way, what is going to break this time through the cycle?

See Reply #71 because Age of Conan has done such an expert job of demonstrating how fucked-up development teams can be in executing their half-baked plans and how much they can sling teh bullshit about those plans?

Actually... yeah.  Only AoC has the benefit of having marinated for a few months.  So the shytty smell doesnt smell so bad after a while, making it easier to come back to.  WAR will smell like a fresh turd I think.  Which is worse.

Honestly the two are so different in terms of polish and buggyness that you cant even compare them. AoC is a festering dung heap of bugs and broken promises and incomplete features, at its absolute worst WAR is maybe a gallon of milk that is one day past its expiration date.

With Warhammer still in beta there is time to get things fixed, but between CTDs, unresponsive gameplay and the fact that mobs don't even fight back when attacked as of this last weekend, I'd say that AoC at release was much better than WAR is currently.  At least level 1-20 worked and worked well with Conan, in WAR right now they've only shown us the first 20 levels and it was one step away from just not working at all.

WAR feels like a AAA title, while AoC was a C trying to show you an A.

There is no sane world where WAR feels like a AAA title.

It doesn't look like a AAA title, it doesn't feel like a AAA title it isn't nearly polished enough to be a AAA title.  It just isn't a AAA title.  Anyone who believes it is is fooling themselves.

Yeah, I'm sorry, I'm with Morfiend here.  There's no comparison.  It's like a completely different league.

Cevik, if it's crap and feels terrible, why are you even in this forum? Stop trolling. Let us get bored with it like we do everything else and just bugger the fuck out of here. Go troll politics.

You don't really ever discuss games though. You only have two switches - raging fanboi and insufferable troll.

Not perhaps, it's the reality of it. Take a step back and read the last year of your posts. You've become a parody of your former self.

See you guys at 10/18... I predict:

"Meh, going back to WoW to get ready for WOTLK"

I just dont see WAR surviving with f13 if AoC didnt... and AoC is further along IMO and still has the potential to be an extremely appealing game.  f13 will dump WAR after a month or so... and people will peak again at AoC and see what they've been missing

Dont get me wrong, I kind of LIKE WAR.  I've been playing and it's not a bad game.

But, from playing both titles I cant logically choose WAR over AoC.  

Especially once siege/pvp is fixed (next week), loot is tweaked, and the DX10 client comes out... which are all happening in Sept.

 I could go on with this (i've got some long posts in other forums) but I shouldnt be crashing this parade anyways;

I admit to being a h8ter, which is wrong.  I'll wish everyone luck with WAR and hope it doesnt bomb.

Molton Core was a ghost-instance just before BC came out, and for good reason. 

WAR is an AAA title, there's absolutely no question about that. Cevik - you're certainly entitled to your opinion but WAR is a big, well financed, far reaching MMOG that is mostly feature complete 2 weeks prior to launch with an internationally known IP. It's AAA without question.

Look, I  think it's worth remaining skeptical about ALL MMOGs given the track record so far. Skeptical isn't hating on something for the heck of it. So defensiveness about Warhammer or anything bugs me at this point: we should all be smarter.

Will they fix that (and the myriad of other issues) before release?  I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Determining whether WAR is quality based on it's current issues is pretty silly. On release day it will be a AAA MMORPG. Whether it's a good enough one is subjective and remains to be seen.

Not to mention that the original assessment was that WAR currently feels like a AAA title, which it does not.

Stop using AAA as a indicator of quality ffs. It's not. Like A-list in Hollywood, AAA simply means that a title is well-financed, has a large (AAA) budget, a experienced dev team and a committed publisher. That's it. AAA games are big studio games with big budgets and wide distribution. THIS DOES NOT MEAN THEY'RE GOOD IN ANY WAY. There are literally dozens of AAA titles that sucked ass in the last few years. They are still AAA games, they just sucked.

EDIT: bad spellng

Stop using AAA as a indicator of quality ffs. It's not. Like A-list in Hollywood, AAA simply means that a title is well-financed, has a large (AAA) budget, a experienced dev team and a committed publisher. That's it. AAA games are big studio games with big budgets and wide distribution. THIS DOES NOT MEAN THEY'RE GOOD IN ANY WAY. There are literally dozens of AAA titles that sucked ass in the last few years. They are still AAA games, they just sucked.

EDIT: bad spellng

WAR feels like a AAA title, while AoC was a C trying to show you an A.

EDIT2:  And if budget is the only consideration for something being AAA then the original statement was still silly, since AoC and WAR had very close to the same budget.

You've become a parody of your former self.

I think AOC is going to surprise some. No, im not currently subbed for many of the same reasons as others here. I also would not make such direct comparisons, especially tech wise, and resources wise for updates and fixes.

/flamesuit

That's what I'm sayin.  AoC is primed to surprise, whilst WAR is primed to fail.  

Dammit, I'm h8ting again.

You never get a second chance to make a first impression.  Although AOC will almost certainly retain enough subscribers to be a business success, as far as the perception of being the New Hotness and taking over the newbie stream, they blew it.  Those who are still playing AoC will, like those that managed to stick past the launch issues of AO, feel that their game is under-appreciated and not getting the success it deserves.  But it is what it is, and it is permanently in the category of "Also Ran".

Not that WAR couldn't wind up in the same boat.  But AOC is not "Primed to succeed", because that ship has already sailed.

--Dave

WAR's not ready yet. The AAA - AA - whatever stuff is pure nonesense. The game is crashing. If nothing else, that's the absolute worst kind of bug you can have, and it's not been resolved yet. Here's the thing about that, you have a finite time table of less time than you have been Beta testing previously to fix a crashing bug that should have been corrected a long time ago. That's a worry for me personally.

I never crashed once during preview weekend, so I will admit I have a skewed perspective of the game's readiness for release.  But you may be an outlier as well.

A lot of rose coloured glasses in this thread.   MMO releases always equal drama.

Let's take for example WoW release which everyone seems to treat as the gold standard AAA title. 

It was the night before release (and all through the forums) people frothed saying it wasn't ready.

We did this already in the AoC thread just recently. No need to do it again just yet.

People arent going back to WoW to get ready for WotLK.  Reason being, their gear is rendered wack with the expansion, just like what happened with BC.  1 month or so prior to release of WotLK people will dump the game until it actually comes out along with no longer planning Raids.  It'd be a waste of time.  Molton Core was a ghost-instance just before BC came out, and for good reason.  Knowing this, WAR is actually in good shape to "steal" players from WoW just before WotLK comes out... assuming they've polished the game and it's actually fun.   The same can be said for any MMO that releases a month or so before WotLK.

Cevik, if it's crap and feels terrible, why are you even in this forum? Stop trolling. Let us get bored with it like we do everything else and just bugger the fuck out of here. Go troll politics.

:ye_gods:

What is with all the sandy vagina's in here?

This sub forum was doing so well and I was enjoying talk about classes and whatnot.

Thanks schild, but after another page and a half I believe no one listened.

Cevik is like Gunnery Seargent Hartman from "Full Metal Jacket," if you address his points directly his first instinct is to punish you more.

You never get a second chance to make a first impression.

Not that WAR couldn't wind up in the same boat.  But AOC is not "Primed to succeed", because that ship has already sailed.

If their next expansion comes within a year and features 10 more levels, full voice-overs and a new post-20 destiny-quest, I'd imagine they'd win back a lot of subscribers.

No, you don't, but AoC's first impressions proved that Funcom is capable of taking the next steps in MMO story-telling.

You have one chance to make a first impression.  Do you think Vanguard could turn out an expansion that would bring customers back in droves?  I don't think so either. 

Unfair comparison. AoC has better combat than anything else on the market. Whereas Vanguard has NOTHING better than anything on the market. If AoC actually implemented all the changes they've touted and made them work, guess what, I'd resub in an instant. I still want to play my assassin and PoM. And I don't even like priests.

AoC before release (like a week before) and AoC a week after was a world of difference.

I wasn't meaning to make a direct comparison.  It was more of an over-the-top comment for effect. 

I still haven't played AoC beyond the time I dabbled in beta.  You'll crush me when I mention that I still enjoyed vanguard more than the time I spent in AoC.  The jousting required to be effective with melee early on really turned me off to the game mechanics. 

AoC before release (like a week before) and AoC a week after was a world of difference.

Yeah, some people will just be more comfortable with the more mainstream MMORPG combat systems (Auto attack, Targeting/lock)... AOC is still more a FPS/like experience in that regard (No autoattack, Aim required/directional attacks, Moving out of the way is valid/required), and definitely isn't for everyone.

I wonder if its valid to say:  "if your not into FPS, or action games, you wont really like AOC's core combat system."

Anywhooooo, got a group of about 5, and i went a bought them all the target boxes, so we are prepared to get our first glimpse of Warhammer.

Yeah, some people will just be more comfortable with the more mainstream MMORPG combat systems (Auto attack, Targeting/lock)... AOC is still more a FPS/like experience in that regard (No autoattack, Aim required/directional attacks, Moving out of the way is valid/required), and definitely isn't for everyone.

I wonder if its valid to say:  "if your not into FPS, or action games, you wont really like AOC's core combat system."


Anywhooooo, got a group of about 5, and i went a bought them all the target boxes, so we are prepared to get our first glimpse of Warhammer.

Like i said. some people will just be more comfortable with the more mainstream MMORPG combat systems.

But the way that WAR plays right now, it hardly feels like a mainstream mmorpg combat system.  Typically either you have a sloppy slow response but a queue so you don't have to time the next keystroke (LotRO as an example) or a nice responsive system that is timing dependent (WoW as an example).  Right now WAR feels mushy and unresponsive, but it totally timing dependent.  I suspect it'll be a game killer for a lot of people.

Unfair comparison. AoC has better combat than anything else on the market. Whereas Vanguard has NOTHING better than anything on the market. If AoC actually implemented all the changes they've touted and made them work, guess what, I'd resub in an instant. I still want to play my assassin and PoM. And I don't even like priests.

Folks,

Well, things have been, as usual, busy here at Mythic so I have lots of news to share. So, without further ado and no SNL references, here's the update on my update:

1) Significantly improved NPC pathing - Okay, in all fairness it wouldn't have taken much to improve on what we showed you folks during the PW. However, the NPC pathing is back to where it needs to be and while it still isn't perfect, well, it's a heck of a lot closer than it was just a short time ago. We identified a whole lot of bugs and squashed them.

2) Improved pet commands and responsivness - Well, pretty much same as above. Pets will no longer act as if obeying an order from you was the last thing in this world that they wanted to do.

3) Fixed an issue with textures blurring - Nothing like looking at textures through a blurred lens to make things look really sharp eh? Major improvements in and more OTW.

4) Enhanced Global Cooldown Mechanic - Well, for one the GCD actually shows the correct cooldown time and not the rounded up cooldown time (Hey, what a great idea, let's make it seem slower than it is. WOOT!). The slop timer is working fine right now and we'll continue to look at making the GCD and combat in general more responsive.

5) Continuing to improve Client Stability - As always, lots of fixes going in here. The client is supposed to be more stable (and looks like it so far) but until we get the masses back in...

6) Added new Graphics Settings and seeking more feedback from testers to guide future improvements. You asked for it, you got it. Well, in all fairness we were going to put these in anyway but it never hurts to nudge us a bit at times.

7) Target Nearest Target improved - Yeah! One of my pet peeves addressed.

8) Renown Gear changes and Potency of Potions increased. Tweaking, adding, subtracting, in other words (don't say "nerf", we're still in beta!) balancing.

9) Increased bonus for medal winners in PQs. PQs are supposed to be fun, joyous and not grindy. We'll continue tweaking and changing them wherever we need to do that to make it so #1. (okay, a ST reference)

10) Added more loot bags in Tier 1 PQs - Boy, it's going to be rather crowded when we launch so we just upped the loot for the Tier 1 PQs. We'll do the same to T2 as needed. And when the rush is over, we'll tweak downwards.

So, in terms of some other good stuff, lots and lots and lots of bugs fixed and lots of new stuff added to the ToK. But wait, there's more and we'll address some of it next week as well as more coming info in the next update.

Oh, and there's still no such thing as a miracle patch so don't expect one here. Just a ton of fixes, additions and adjustments. We have another major patch coming as well before launch. We don't believe in miracle patches (miracle whip is a whole other subject) here at Mythic but simply hard work and a talented team.

Much respect to my team that is really doing one heck of a job getting things ready for launch.

Mark

Booooooooooooooooooo

EDIT: Warhammer is  :uhrr: The amount of gushing over a simple post about a hypothetical patch is pathetic.

"Is Chickening Still in?" will replace/is the new "Do crafting and player cities still suck?"

Some good info there.  I am glad they are upping the loot in the PQ's.  I was unsatisfied having gone thru the DE 1st Tier three times in a row and not once getting a loot bag.  I had to come back as a 6th Sorc just to come in 2nd.

On a side note, is it just me or do Champion and Hero mobs hit like Mack trucks?  It was just a jarring difference after playing patty-cake with normal mobs.

GCD still worries me.  I am guessing the fix was the slop timer?  Was that in the preview weekend? 

Last issue, not sure it's the client's fault.  When I play I often freeze up for a second.  It's like I enter a new area and I freeze, but the new area is only 500' (in game terms) away.  Does it freeze because new textures are loading?  It doesn't do it when I am fighting, only when I am traveling.

/signed

"Is Chickening Still in?" will replace/is the new "Do crafting and player cities still suck?"

As a chicken, do you still have control of your character?  Or does it behave like being sheeped in WoW?

Cause, they should give the chickens a fast running ability, and let them explore the zone anyway.

Exploration.  Like everyone has been saying. 

But seriously, why is the chicken mechanic going to ruin your game experience?

Chickening isn't great, but I'm not sure the alternatives are better. Deleveling might have the effect of moving too much population out of higher tier RVR for example.

In my mind, the chickening means they are going to have to constantly add to the top end of the game, as no one will ever be able to "go back" to lower levels.

Since when spreading out the players and keep low levels areas "alive" and populated is bad?

No.  Provide a fun endgame experience and you don't need to add to it.  My DAoC play for many years changed little... log on, RvR some, 8v8 some, 1v1 some, log off.  It was precisely when they added to DAoC's endgame that they fucked it up. 

Chess hasn't changed for centuries and people still play it.  If a game is well crafted, people will stay. 

Obviously any game that ends doesn't need an endgame.  CoH shows the MMOs with no endgame have serious retention problems.

Obviously any game that ends doesn't need an endgame.  CoH shows the MMOs with no endgame have serious retention problems.

I'm really surprised if those numbers for CoX's subscribers is correct.  I resubbed last month just to see what was up and the server I was on was always pretty empty, where it used to be at decent numbers.  There's only one server that ever goes above light load on the server screen anymore.

Chess doesn't require an "endgame".

I'm really surprised if those numbers for CoX's subscribers is correct.  I resubbed last month just to see what was up and the server I was on was always pretty empty, where it used to be at decent numbers.  There's only one server that ever goes above light load on the server screen anymore.

While your point still sort of applies (though it's a kind of meaningless comparison since the games are so utterly different), chess not only has an endgame, I think the term probably originated there.

Although endgame may have originally been used in chess, I doubt mmo gamers brought the term over. It was probably just reinvented. The endgame in chess isn't the same kind of endgame as in an mmo, but I'll assume you know this and so I won't bother explaining why.

Chess hasn't changed for centuries and people still play it.  If a game is well crafted, people will stay. 

It's simple, there has to be a mechanic at the level cap, called whatever the fuck you assholes want to call it, that keeps people logging in to play or they will cancel their subscriptions.  If they want the game to have mass appeal, whatever mechanic exists at the level cap to keep people playing better have mass appeal, or retention will suck no matter how fun the "leveling up" part of the game is.

It's simple, there has to be a mechanic at the level cap, called whatever the fuck you assholes want to call it, that keeps people logging in to play or they will cancel their subscriptions. 

My point (using chess as a porr example) was that the only mechanic you need at the endgame is fun. Ok, maybe fun + variety.  If people have fun playing with their maxxed out toon, they will continue to log on.  I played DAoC a LONG time without changing my character much at all.  Get to 50, make a template, go rvr.  There were enough different sandboxes to RvR in that I always had variety in what to do without the actual mechanic of the game changing much.  Maybe poker is a better example.  The game doesn't change, yet people play for years and years.  The game has enough built-in gameplay options that the experience changes organically every time you play.  

 Look at the NFL and the amount of money people are willing to pay just to WATCH a game, much less play it.

Obviously any game that ends doesn't need an endgame.  CoH shows the MMOs with no endgame have serious retention problems.

I'd also argue that players looking for an explicit endgame aren't playing CoH/V. Those who love rolling alts, crafting out a character with IOs or collecting badges probably stay. Also, there are a couple of repeatable max level task / strike forces and a few trial-esque bits of content if you are looking for that (but it's not the main deal at lvl 50).

But look at what they do while watching the game.  Look at the amount of content it provides used in stories\opinion with friends the next day and fantasy games.  Many people are also watching the game to see the outcome of their gambling on the game.  They may not be playing on the field but they are playing in multiple other games.

This is exactly what I was alluding to above.  If you want a mainstream following then you need a mainstream end game.  It's perfectly fine to create a niche game with a niche end game like CoH, in fact it's probably the smart move to make considering you should be able to create it cheaper, run it cheaper, and thus make more profit in the long run.  But if your goal is not niche, then you better have a game that appeals to more than just a niche following.

Right, that is why I think Football makes a good comparison to an MMO.  It is not just a single game (like chess), it is really a subset of Minigames that make the whole thing work.  That is why we don't sit around watching Chess tournaments on Sunday afternoon (in America anyway).  EVE gives a little insight into this.  I stayed subbed to that game for months a while back just because READING about the "WAR" in the EVE threads was interesting.  I remained connected to the game almost as a "fan" to be able to watch in and out of game what was going on.

Remember, though, CoH came out before WoW. The definition of niche was a lot different back then. In terms of the pre-WoW MMO market, CoH *is* a mainstream success. I'm not sure there's good evidence to support the idea that a title that threw WoW-like resources at a model that didn't include a hardcore endgame would automatically fail. There's too many other factors of shittyness muddying up the waters with Conan to let us say "yes, the reason it failed was because the endgame PVP is bad."

If you take WoW as the baseline, every other MMO is niche. Except for perhaps MapleStory.

But all those games from Asia are crazy.. they don't count!   :why_so_serious:

Though no one would suggest that the Club Penguin Times provides Pulitzer Prize-worthy coverage, it nonetheless attracts 30,000 daily submissions from children, who pose questions to Dear Abby-inspired "Aunt Arctic," compose verse for the poetry corner, tell a joke or review a party or event.

It's simple, there has to be a mechanic at the level cap, called whatever the fuck you assholes want to call it, that keeps people logging in to play or they will cancel their subscriptions.

 MMOs still have not done much with it, but could I believe.

Its called remaining on top. Why did Lance race the Tour after he won his first one? In sports once a person gets to the top they generally stay there for as long as they can. Sure some retire at the top of the game, but most ride it out as long as they can.  "Repeat" in sports is common term for a reason.

Next time compare warhammer to fantasy football/baseball and you will have a decent argument.

Games = sports.  Sports = games.  One can compare anything in one to the other.

Remaining on top implies all you said.  There are many rewards for it and any reason anyone comes up with to do so is valid.  It also costs time and money to remain up their even if you a "professional" in your field.  That $500k donation to the UCI by Lance was for a reason for example.

I will gladly log in and play WAR all night every night if mythic wants to pay me a couple of million dollars every year.  Sounds like a plan to me.  You're a smart thinker.