KOTOR - Bioware - PC

[Samprimary]

Again, I wouldn't be opposed to a Star Wars based story if it had a little of something I haven't already seen a billion times. KOTOR is based 1000 years in the past or something right? Could anyone have guessed that by playing? Everything about it is essentially contemporary.

The stuff you saw before the rise of the empire was all clean, shiny, and well-polished with vast structures of nobility.

After the rise of the empire, thematically, it was a darker, more rugged time. The juxtaposition was like moving from the roaring 20's to the depths of the depression.

That's one cool idea that they had that basically got rolled over by the prequels being a load of cack.

[Morat20]

it's star wars. it's george lucas. After the prequels. Come on. It's gotta be awesome after the shit storm that was Episode 1.
Right, let me try hinting on KOTOR 2 awesomeness

How about a game that actually explains why seemingly random people joined you? and a game that actually justified you as an evil that must be stopped because no matter where you go, people die and you get stronger (more levels) from planet to planet, leaving a trail of slaughter behind you? Despite all of this hatred they were all wrong, because they simply too prideful to admit their mistakes and still insists theirs were the right way?  Yes. The Jedi is represented in a totally different light in the sequel. KOTOR 1 was too black and white, the sequel shone brilliantly despite the hacked ending, the script made for an awesome story. I didn't care if the combat sucked, the writing was good enough for a movie. The Exile's story is MUCH better than Revan and it's a shame EA is making Bioware go MMO route with the license instead of tying up the loose ends.

I'd forgotten about that part -- when you're talking to the Jedi Masters, and you're explaining how you've grown stronger in the Force, and they ask you why you didn't wonder about how leaving a trail of blood behind you as you rampaged from planet to planet managed to make you stronger in the Force.

Damn, I wish they hadn't had to rush the ending on that game. :(

[Ingmar]

Again, I wouldn't be opposed to a Star Wars based story if it had a little of something I haven't already seen a billion times. KOTOR is based 1000 years in the past or something right? Could anyone have guessed that by playing? Everything about it is essentially contemporary.

It is set X hundred years before the Star Wars movies. Those are already 'long long ago' or whatever, so I'm not really sure where the bar should be set for modernity in them, or even if it should matter.

[Cyrrex]

Not that I'd know about stuff like this ( ), but I'm fairly certain it's set about 4000 years before ANH.  It's kinda strange that people are complaining about it being tied to heavily to the original canon, as it has always been my impression that people liked the game so much more exactly because it it wasn't slaved to its source material.

[Velorath]

Not that I'd know about stuff like this ( ), but I'm fairly certain it's set about 4000 years before ANH.

Yep, pretty much following the continuity for that period that Dark Horse established with the Tales of the Jedi comics.

[Cyrrex]

Not that I'd know about stuff like this ( ), but I'm fairly certain it's set about 4000 years before ANH.

Yep, pretty much following the continuity for that period that Dark Horse established with the Tales of the Jedi comics.

Is it time for our nerdhug?

[WindupAtheist]

In Star Wars, interstellar spaceflight has existed for tens of thousands of years and technology is supposed to have basically finished advancing a long time ago.  Not stopped advancing because of some dark age, but just... finished.  You can buy a sentient robot or an FTL drive capable of crossing the galaxy at a backwater junkyard, but things don't just keep getting better until everyone ascends into gods or something.  Even with something like the Death Star it's more a matter of "I can't believe anyone would ever build a gun that huge!" than any particular technology nobody has seen before.

[Velorath]

Not that I'd know about stuff like this ( ), but I'm fairly certain it's set about 4000 years before ANH.

Yep, pretty much following the continuity for that period that Dark Horse established with the Tales of the Jedi comics.

Is it time for our nerdhug?

I'll break your arm if you even try it.

[Lantyssa]

Again, I wouldn't be opposed to a Star Wars based story if it had a little of something I haven't already seen a billion times. KOTOR is based 1000 years in the past or something right? Could anyone have guessed that by playing? Everything about it is essentially contemporary.

How do you know it doesn't have anything you haven't seen?  You stopped after the tutorial and right where the story even starts.  It's been a while, but I don't recall them throwing everything at you right away either.  It wasn't until the big reveal in the middle that I went "Oh shit!" and really got sucked into the plot.

Also, BioWare games are about the story.  If you're more interested in playing them for the game system, don't bother.  They do a good job of turning popular PnP systems into computer games, but their effectiveness depends entirely on the PnP game system not sucking.  (Mass Effect is a step in the right direction.)

[Margalis]

Because people here complained so much I played again and made it about 3 hours in.

I'm not expecting wooden ships but 4000 years in the past? It seems to me it could easily take place almost concurrent with Episode 1. It doesn't feel any different to me. The tech looks the same, the races are the same, the overall atmosphere is the same. You still have Twileks dancing to the beat of those yellowish alien dudes, still have basically the same weapons, etc. I guess it couldn't be concurrent with Episode 1 in that there is a large Sith army and lots of Dark Jedi around, but in terms of the actual universe it doesn't feel older, just different, like an alternate reality.

The game does pick up a bit when you get Mission, in part because Carth is the most boring generic guy ever, and in part because 3 teammates is more exciting. Still my overall view of the game hasn't changed. The voice acting is all over the place, the evil choices are unintentionally silly. Don't even get me started on the people who have a disease that makes their entire body structure change in a flash of light, or the dead apprentice who's body is lying 20 yards away from the entrance gate yet has not been spotted in years. This whole undercity section comes off as terribly contrived to me.

[NowhereMan]

I'll be honest and say that the story really isn't very quick to get into. The first planet (for me anyway) didn't even really start to pick up until near the very end but I enjoyed lasering NPCs and such so it wasn't so bad. I'll still hold that it's worth it but the game's real strengths come from getting to know a few of the NPCs in your party and the main storyline as it develops. The problem being it develops slowly. I don't know if anyone would jump on you so much for quitting after the first planet though I still think it's a mistake and you'd be missing out on a great game. There's just something that gets people about basically playing the tutorial for a game and then declaring it unfun.

Also as has been said, the dark side choices don't get a hell of a lot better. There are a few major choices in the game that are actually well written and you can get dark side points without feeling like you're just some sociopathic thug. These usually revolve around the dark side being the easy path to power and give you a choice between the right but difficult choice or the dark but easy and straightforward choice.

[Margalis]

Most of the dark side choices are less evil than thuggish if that makes sense. When people think of evil they think of grand designs to take over the universe, not kicking puppies and other douchebaggery. I almost wonder if would be better to have the good and evil campaigns be more distinct, with somewhat different structures. It must be problematic to construct a single narrative that supports meaningful good and evil choices.

Also some of it is inconsistent. For a while I wasn't looting people's boxes because I was afraid it would make me evil, but it didn't seem to make any difference. I can chop down their door and steal their shit and that's not evil? Similarly I killed a female bounty hunter just to collect the reward, and while you can spin it as some greater good shit it still felt evil to me.

I don't think I'm going to play any more. If it gets better after this I'll never know. Maybe giving up 10 minutes after the tutorial ended was a bit much but 3+ hours of playing time should be enough.

[rk47]

Just skip it, KOTOR 1 has very little in interesting choices, a few characters actually showed great development but Carth is just a regular Bioware character template that resurfaces again and again in other Bioware games (Baldur's Gate Anomen, Mass Effect's Kaidan). The only interesting part is the Disney-esque princess in the tower shit with a twist near the end.

[lesion]

This really makes me want to play KotOR 2 again.

[Ingmar]

Just skip it, KOTOR 1 has very little in interesting choices, a few characters actually showed great development but Carth is just a regular Bioware character template that resurfaces again and again in other Bioware games (Baldur's Gate Anomen, Mass Effect's Kaidan). The only interesting part is the Disney-esque princess in the tower shit with a twist near the end.

I can see Kaidan (heck it is even the same actor) but Anomen? Anomen was totally different!

[Morat20]

Just skip it, KOTOR 1 has very little in interesting choices, a few characters actually showed great development but Carth is just a regular Bioware character template that resurfaces again and again in other Bioware games (Baldur's Gate Anomen, Mass Effect's Kaidan). The only interesting part is the Disney-esque princess in the tower shit with a twist near the end.

No, you need to experience Carth and Bastilla, so that in KOTOR2 when you listen to HK-47 mock them, it's even more hilarious.

[Lantyssa]

No, you need to experience Carth and Bastilla, so that in KOTOR2 when you listen to HK-47 mock them, it's even more hilarious.

Maybe it ended up being used in KotOR2 (too long ago to remember), but I remember an HK-47 cut-scene clip from the first game about them which had me rolling on the floor.  Carth's angst and Bastilla being love-sick.  I still play it from time to time.

Most of the dark side choices are less evil than thuggish if that makes sense. When people think of evil they think of grand designs to take over the universe, not kicking puppies and other douchebaggery. I almost wonder if would be better to have the good and evil campaigns be more distinct, with somewhat different structures. It must be problematic to construct a single narrative that supports meaningful good and evil choices.

Mass Effect is so much better about the morality system, where it's more a ruthlessness than thuggish evil.  Even KotOR2 is better, but then exploring the grey is (thankfully) really what that entire game is about.  The Black and White morality of Star Wars has always offended me though.  I'm a solid grey, and they don't account for that as someone complained about above.

[Morat20]

No, you need to experience Carth and Bastilla, so that in KOTOR2 when you listen to HK-47 mock them, it's even more hilarious.

Maybe it ended up being used in KotOR2 (too long ago to remember), but I remember an HK-47 cut-scene clip from the first game about them which had me rolling on the floor.  Carth's angst and Bastilla being love-sick.  I still play it from time to time.

HK-47: Mockery: Oh Master, I do not trust you! I cannot trust you or anyone else ever again.
HK-47: Mockery: Oh, Master, I love you so very much, but the others cannot konw. Come, let us press our slimy, mucus covered lips together in the cargo hold.

Those two. :) Thought they were KOTOR2, but maybe not. :)

[rk47]

they are. Bioware romance are mostly crap. The Carth being a pussy at the end of the Dark Side play was hilarious too.

It's something in the lines of 'I'll get you next time--- DECEPTICONS RETREAT!' from sunday morning cartoon after I told him I was gonna kill him.

[Lantyssa]

That's them!

[WindupAtheist]

KOTOR struck me as a very Western game. Art and animation that was "realistic" - that is to say not stylized and more functional than inspired.

I've made a few changes that may make it more to your liking.



(That's for calling me a nerd in your review, which I didn't notice at first.  I mean sure it's true, but still...)

[Triforcer]

Thanks for making mountain dew jet from my nose at work, asshole. 

Also, that's why I can't play JRPGs- they give me the same feeling I think I'd have if I drove around playgrounds all day in a white panel van.  The last TV commercial I saw for a JRPG (Sonata something) featured a 10 year old in a maid's outfit. 

[Cyrrex]

WUA, that was gold man.

[Merusk]

Needs more panty-shot.  It IS 12+ after all.

[Rasix]

Also, that's why I can't play JRPGs- they give me the same feeling I think I'd have if I drove around playgrounds all day in a white panel van.  The last TV commercial I saw for a JRPG (Sonata something) featured a 10 year old in a maid's outfit. 

Well, in the defense of Eternal Sonata, you're pretty much playing as a party of kids the entire way through.  I think at some point you've got a pair of 8 year olds in your group that are some sort of forrest guardian or whatever (the main character from the commercials is like 14 or some such).  I didn't really notice an attempt at all during the game to objectify them at any point.  Polka (the main char) is just really wearing some sort of dress,  but I suppose someone that has problems with the art is going to see what they're predisposed to see.   I didn't feel very  playing it, but I didn't play it for very long.   The story, unfortunately, was pretty poor and the amount times the game insulted your intelligence by ponderously explaining a completely fucking obvious plot point you just witnessed drove me over the edge.  Also, far, far too much combat.

Still, even if you can get past the art work, there's still going to be a lot that most people here won't like with JRPGs.  They're mostly turnbased or some sort of hybrid realtime.  They're all fairly linear for at the very least long stretches of the game.   Most are likely to be around 30+ hours in length.   You're not going to be making a lot of choices, they'll be made for you and there's rarely any sort of good/evil path.   But even with all I've just mentioned, most won't get past the art.  There's also the fact that there isn't a good JRPG on either of the next gen consoles yet.  Eternal Sonata, Blue Dragon, and even largely Lost Odyssey are poor examples of the genre even if ES and LO have a few things going for them.   The ones I haven't mentioned are even worse from all accounts. 

I guess it just doesn't bother me,  and I find myself enjoying both RPGs and jRPGs.  Hell, my favorite jRPG, Shadow Hearts: Covenant, tends to push the  envelope concerning one character.   Then again, that's a game that had a BSDM villian, collectable gay porn cards, a gay vampire wrestler as a main character, and the subplot line that bordered on necrophilia (no corpse sex, I assure you).  Still, what emerged is a game that didn't treat anything seriously yet managed to have a compelling plot, a great combat system, and a series of truly memorable moments that managed to leave just about every RPG experience in the dust.    So, am I just really well grounded and secure or irrevocably twisted and perverse?

 

[Margalis]

Ha ha ha.

But seriously, I would have liked KOTOR a lot more if there was one non-ugly face I could choose from.

[Rasix]

Ha ha ha.

But seriously, I would have liked KOTOR a lot more if there was one non-ugly face I could choose from.

My fem puppy kicker towards the end of the game had some awesome evil-force lines all over her face. 

The art direction in KOTOR and other Western RPGs has generally been rather poor.  I don't remember it being bad as Oblivion where everyone had Downs or jaundice.

[NowhereMan]

Western RPGs do seem to take the route that customisation is more important than art quality. Although at least part of this is that Western RPGs also tend to go in for much larger numbers of mobs since you don't get nice set sized encounters like most JRPGs.

I still really want a decent fantasy RPG where I get a cool looking cloak, just because I love being a walking cliché.

[WindupAtheist]

I was always that ethnically ambiguous bald guy with the goatee.  He was pretty badass looking.  And awesome for a dark side character because... well... goatee!

[rk47]

Needs more panty-shot.  It IS 12+ after all.

[Morat20]

I was always that ethnically ambiguous bald guy with the goatee.  He was pretty badass looking.  And awesome for a dark side character because... well... goatee!

One of the KOTOR2 guys looks like Jesus (the Let's Play guy used him and referred to him as 'Jedi Jesus'). In either Kotor1 or 2, there's a guy that looks like Keanu Reeves.

Everyone looks a bit constipated, and I'm pretty sure in the first one some of the NPC faces are drawn from the PC face pool, which leads to some amusing moments.

[WindupAtheist]

I dunno.  Bald Vaguely Filipino Revan never met his twin, but then that's the only face I ever played through with.

[Morat20]

I dunno.  Bald Vaguely Filipino Revan never met his twin, but then that's the only face I ever played through with.

I think they do a replacement. You know if Default NPC face is PC face, swap for another face. I'm almost certain I've seen NPC's wearing some of the "other choice" faces for PCs in one of the games.