KOTOR - Bioware - PC

[Margalis]

(Puts on Gloves of Ifrit's Bane)

This might say more about me than about KOTOR but when I stepped out into the first city and was surrounded by stuff to do I quit, uninstalled and deleted my saves. I hate that feeling in RPGs that you are compelled to run around and talk to every damn person in a spawling area to collect quests, find vendors, etc. It's work that I've done dozens of times, never fun. I'm not a fan of the "!" WOW popularized but it was at least an attempt to solve a real problem, the "oh great a new town with 50 fucking NPCs and I've got to talk to every single one" problem.

KOTOR struck me as a very Western game. Art and animation that was "realistic" - that is to say not stylized and more functional than inspired. (Although the hand to hand combat animation was pretty well-done in the way attacker and defender interacted) My character was downright ugly. (Female scout) Voice acting was decent but still a bit slow and stilted in typical gaming style. (I began skipping it quickly) The dark / light choices were a bit Snidely Whiplash / Dudley Do-Right, a binary split between "shut up cunt while I chop off your head" or "why yes I'd love to rescue your kitten from that no-good Hutt."

I was inundated with options that I didn't understand. When you level up you can choose a bunch of different ways to level, and you can also choose not to level at all. It makes the same mistakes so many RPGs make: I have no idea how useful any of these skills are going to be. Is Droid Repairing or Computer Fuxxoring useful? Depends on how many droids and computers I meet, something I can't know until I've played through once. Energy beams are good against droids and shields -- again well how many of those am I going to meet? Telling me what the skills do is not the same as informing me as to their usefulness. I hate the feeling that I'm just guessing. And the fact that I can choose not to level up at all is just bizarre - it's like the devs are encouraging people to be confused on their first play-through so that they can min-max on their second.

The fact that I'm not a big fan of Star Wars probably didn't help me any.

For this type of game (Western-style / skill-based / dialogue trees / paper dolls / windows and tabs) it seemed pretty decent - there was nothing terribly annoying and certain aspects (like the hand-to-hand combat) surprised me in a positive way. I suspect that most people who expect to like it will like it. But in my case it did not defy my low expectations.

The fact that nobody has managed to split the difference between Western and Eastern RPGs seems like a missed opportunity. Japanese art production, animation, and attention to detail merged with a more free-form, role-playing, non-linear structure would be a marvelous thing. I can't help but think that both Western and Eastern RPGs are overly constrained by genre conventions. In some ways both have fallen into the "fans of the genre" ghetto where these games are made for a specific type of player and all others need not apply.

Verdict: If you are thinking about buying buy, at this point it's cheap and you'll probably like it. If this type of game isn't your thing it won't change your mind unless you are a huge Star Wars nerd like WUA.

[Reg]

I don't understand how you can review this if you uninstalled after entering the first city. Are all of the other comments just things you've seen other people say about the game?

[Merusk]

I looked at the Planescape box once and didn't buy it.  It was orange and looked like shit.  If you like orange shit you may like the game, so you might want to check it out.

[Tebonas]

That is no attack on you, but why do people insist on buying games that they know beforehand they won't like? Kotor was a more than decent CRPG, with all the mechanics of that genre. Exploring areas is part of those games, as is finding and doing quests. And hunting down items to equip your party with. Those are not things to endure in RPGs, that are reasons people play them.

When skilling wrong can keep you from finishing the game, that is indeed a problem (like Arcanum). But especially in Kotor it doesn't matter what you skill. The game becomes so ridiculously easy that no matter what you do you will finish it. So all you do along the ride is basically playing your role and learning the skills you deem appropriate for your character (=only roleplaying option left in CRPGs, apart from "good dialog" "don't care dialog" "evil dialog")

So, what made you think you might like it even with your dislike of both Star Wars and CRPG mechanics?

[HaemishM]

KOTOR skills are simple. Once you get Jedi powers, nothing else matters all that much.

[NowhereMan]

To be fair to Margalis I don't RPGs are the best sort of games for a BiiF. The fact that he basically played through the tutorial and uninstalled makes his conclusions a bit questionable, it came off a bit like someone playing Half-Life 2 and complaining that they didn't like the lack of character customisation or the lack of weapon choices.

Edit: I should note however that the Dick Dastardly/Dudley DoGood responses was fairly accurate.

[Bunk]

I initially wanted to write some scathing attack on the original poster, but then I realized something: His opinion of Western RPGs is pretty much my exact opinion of Asian RPGs. I loved KoToR for exactly the reasons he criticized it.

I like games that let me have free run on skill choices, stats, etc. If I want to play through a game with a gimpy character, let me. Nothing I hate more than a supposed RPG system that railroads you through the leveling progression with no choices.

Really though, KoToR is all about the story.

[Reg]

Did you form your opinion of Asian RPGs just by playing the tutorial?

[Bunk]

I have played far enough in to a few to at least justify how I feel about them. Though I would not, for example, post a mini review of FF X-2, since all I made it through was the opening cinematic and the first fight before I quit and gave the disc back.

[Rasix]

Did you form your opinion of Asian RPGs just by playing the tutorial?

I doubt most make it past the art direction, which is a shame. 

I think the problem with KoToR is that the initial portion of the game is largely irrelevant to character development after you become a Jedi.  You're likely not going to  grasp this until you're done with it. Second time through, I didn't level past 4 until I was able to select my Jedi profession.  Having high repair does lend itself to more humor with HK 47 and playing a puppy kicker has some great moments, but it's really difficult to gimp yourself in any aspect playing this game.

edit: lol, FFX-2. 

[Ingmar]

Did you form your opinion of Asian RPGs just by playing the tutorial?

I doubt most make it past the art direction, which is a shame. 


edit: lol, FFX-2. 

For me the art doesn't enter into it with JRPG, I am not bothered by 'anime' looking characters or any of the stuff that makes people's hair stand on end in gamer art arguments. It is mostly about the mechanics, especially in combat. Give me a game where I can actually move my character around any day. And yeah I know there are some where you can do that, which brings me to my second objection, which is: I don't want a party made up of 10 year old girls, thanks. (I'm looking RIGHT at you, Eternal Sonata.)

[Margalis]

This is not difficult: I played it, it wasn't fun, I stopped playing. I wasn't aware that I somehow owed it to someone to play all the way through a game I didn't enjoy. All told I played for about an hour, that should be enough to get a basic feel for the game.

I heard it was good so I gave it a try. Also partly because I considered it a sort of demo for Mass Effect. Before paying more for a game that rapes my computer I figured I'd pay less for a game many people think is as good or better. I was hoping it would be genre-transcendent.

Maybe I'm just burned out on RPGs. Enter a town, talk to every villager, collect a bunch of quests and such -- same shit as in Dragon Quest 1 no? Some of the villagers are going to tell me about the evil dark lord who threatens to take over the land, some are going to be selling items, some are going to have quests and some are going to make meaningless small-talk. Been there done that for 20 years.

I almost hate to admit it but the presence of "!" would probably have kept me playing.

Exploring areas is part of those games, as is finding and doing quests.

I don't consider wandering around at town clicking on every person "exploring." It's busy work that a monkey could do. There is no interesting gameplay there and no sense of discovery. Exploring an ancient ruin or a jungle sounds fun. Exploring a town full of blaster salesmen not so much.

If I want to play through a game with a gimpy character, let me

Again to have a choice you have to understand the consquences of your progression. For all I know taking a lot of computer fuxxoring may gimp your character or make it super powerful. There is no way of knowing without playing the game first. (Although I would guess that any non-combat skills aren't that important in the end)

Edit: Kind of funny that someone mentioned Half-Life. I got it as part of the Orange Box but I haven't fired it up. I played the demo and that was enough for me. Yes, I hate fun.

[schild]

Half Life 1? Sucks. Not missing anything. Totally overrated.

[Reg]

/shrug

Whatever.

Are there any other contentious opinions you have about games where you've only played the tutorial or is it all out of your system now?

[Margalis]

Any more sand in your vagina that you need to shake out?

I love the idea that you can't review a game that you disliked enough to stop playing. It means the only negative reviews you'll get are from people dumb enough to waste 40 hours of their time on something they don't enjoy.

It wasn't fun. Deal with it. Or post five more times in this thread crying some more.

[Ingmar]

Any more sand in your vagina that you need to shake out?

I love the idea that you can't review a game that you disliked enough to stop playing. It means the only negative reviews you'll get are from people dumb enough to waste 40 hours of their time on something they don't enjoy.

It wasn't fun. Deal with it. Or post five more times in this thread crying some more.

The thing is I don't think anyone would be giving you any shit if you got to, say, the end of the first planet and THEN said "screw this." A the point where you did, you just haven't seen anything of the game or the story; you just made an assumption and quit, without giving the game a chance to disprove your assumption, or to prove that it was fun despite it.

[Reg]

So does this mean you don't have any other opinions to share with us?  It doesn't have to be just games. I'm sure you have strongly held opinions of various movies and television shows where you've only seen the first five minutes that would be every bit as valuable as your KOTOR review.

[Margalis]

An hour is plenty of time to include something fun no?

This is basic game design. Not even game design, plain old narrative design. There are ways to grab people from the start. In medias res?

The first chapter of "A Game of Thrones" has essentially nothing to do with the rest of the book. It's there just to suck the reader in. The same is true of the start of Symphony of the Night or Metroid Prime. Final Fantasy 4 starts off immediately with something compelling. Hell Final Fantasy 1 gives you an opening segment before you cross the bridge which is fairly compelling before the game really opens up. Lufia is another example.

I've heard of people who stopped playing Twilight Princess because they got sick of the starting town -- catching goats, catching fish, etc. I think it's a great game but I won't call that an invalid complaint. The first hour or two of the game just isn't that fun and the only reason to keep playing is the faith that it will improve. (There is an old thread here full of people saying "few hours in, still playing out of the hope it gets better!")

So does this mean you don't have any other opinions to share with us?  It doesn't have to be just games. I'm sure you have strongly held opinions of various movies and television shows where you've only seen the first five minutes that would be every bit as valuable as your KOTOR review.

You seem to think that posting the exact same thing five times makes your point stronger. Your whining is so endearing, keep it up.

If the general consensus is that the first hour of KOTOR sucks ass and is not indicative of the rest of the game that's something Bioware should consider fixing in future games. Many people find tutorial levels quite dull, and plenty of games have managed to slowly work in gameplay elements and explanations without having a dedicated tutorial. There is a certain art in making a game fun right off the bat.

[Hawkbit]

I've heard of people who stopped playing Twilight Princess because they got sick of the starting town -- catching goats, catching fish, etc. I think it's a great game but I won't call that an invalid complaint. The first hour or two of the game just isn't that fun and the only reason to keep playing is the faith that it will improve. (There is an old thread here full of people saying "few hours in, still playing out of the hope it gets better!")

Damn I'm glad there were other people who thought this about the latest Zelda.  I made at least three attempts to get into that game, each unsuccessfully.  I think I made it to the Goron level on Death Mountain at least before i quit, but I simply couldn't finish past it.  The game was entirely too linear, unlike Wind Waker that had such an open feel to it when I was out on the water.  The art style in WW grew on me over time, to the point where I really liked it by the end of the game. 

Not so with TP.  First off, I play Zelda games because I want to play as Link, not as a wolf.  It completely broke the connection I had with the character, not to mention that I played Okami right before playing TP.  Second, I don't like cutesy Asian crap (yes, i know it's ALWAYS been regarded as cutesy Asian crap).  That thing that travels on the wolf that makes noises like a Japanese porno all the time.... sucked. 

In regards to KOTOR, I never finished it either.  I played maybe half of the game before it fell into my mental Bioware abyss that ALL of it's games do.  The problem is the min/maxing of the alignment systems in these games.  Everything is either very good or very bad, never falling where I'd really answer.  So invariably I answer how I would in real life which makes a straight, middle of the road alignment character that never really gets access to either of the cool stuff. 

I still feel KOTOR was a success though.  And I don't think KOTOR can be looked at as a Mass Effect demo - ME is one of the first Bioware games that I'll likely finish because it's good/evil system can be increased independently of each other.  The new IP also helps freshen the game genre and one cannot deny the simple polish on ME compared to other Bioware games. 

Wait till ME hits the bargain bin and pick it up... don't base your opinion on a game that is what, 6-8 years old now?

[Margalis]

Good comments about ME. I just assumed that because KOTOR is often held up as one of Bioware's best games it could serve as a substitute. (Also I'm pretty good about judging games based on their peers at release)

I think dialogue-tree RPGs are in a bit of bind. If your answers really matter then it makes sense to play optimally instead of to role play. But if they don't really matter what's the point? I suppose the solution is to make them matter as far as plot points and quests but not in terms of gear and abilities. The idea of trying to min-max dialogue choices is silly. If a set of choices is clearly objectively better than another set the game mechanics are sabotaging the role-playing element.

[WindupAtheist]

What they needed to do was rip out all the conversation trees so you don't have to worry about which response is best, put all the meaningful NPC interaction into nothing but cutscenes so you don't have to run around talking to people, take out all the leveling options so you don't accidentally gimp yourself, and just railroad you through the plot while you select Fight and target Imp and desperately try to pretend you're doing something besides watching a really slow-paced CGI movie with inventory management.

If you look at a dialogue selection and think "Is it objectively better from a powergaming perspective to insult this guy's shoes or tell him he has a nice hat?  I don't know!  PANIC!" instead of "Oh man that insult is kinda funny and those shoes are totally stupid!" then you're doing it wrong.

[Margalis]

That's true, but you have to admit it's not good design when the role-playing conflicts with optimal gameplay.

A role playing game shouldn't punish you for role playing the way you see fit.

[WindupAtheist]

It's really hard to gimp yourself in KOTOR to the point that you feel gimped.  I played through it on Xbox, dumped all my points into medkit usage, used the auto-level feature on most of the other party members, and played through just fine.  If you play through a second time to see how the dark side goes, or whatever, then you can min-max your way to godhood.

Like that thing where you don't have to level right away?  Technically you could remain level 2 all through the first planet, letting the other party members protect you, until you become a Jedi.  Then you could spend those accumulated levels on Jedi stuff, and end up with more force powers than the guy who spent his levels immediately on Soldier or Scoundrel or whatever.

You could, but unless you have OCD, why bother?  At the end of the day, the game's just not that hard.

The story and characters are where it's at, and it's there that the choices really matter.  Being an evil Dark Side badass seemed like nothing but laughs and puppy-kicking good times to me through most of the game, right up until it caused the death of a character I really didn't want to kill.  It managed to make me feel bad, because even though I couldn't have forseen their death, still it wouldn't have happened if I hadn't been such an "UNLIMITED POWAR! MUAHAHA!" prick.

That's what the dialogue trees are good for, and it beats the living hell out of "Oh Aeris got stabbed in a cutscene, and will get stabbed everytime I play through the game ever."

[Velorath]

Half Life 1? Sucks. Not missing anything. Totally overrated.

Personally I think Half Life 2 sucked also.

Anyway, Margalis' taste in games has always been suspect to me since he enjoys FFXI. 

[Reg]

He probably just likes the introductory cut-scenes.

[Velorath]

An hour is plenty of time to include something fun no?

Yeah, but part of the problem is that unless you've lived in a cave for the last decade or so, all the "faults" in this game that caused you to uninstall it after the first hour are things you likely knew about before you started playing.  You're playing what is essentially a textbook example of Western-style RPGs, and your complaints seem to be that it's too much of a Western-style RPG.  That's great if you're Yahtzee or something, and it's all a springboard for a humorous rant on the flaws of the genre.  Otherwise you just come off as the guy who doesn't like the racing simulation game because it isn't arcadey enough.

[Margalis]

I did note that fans of the genre will probably like it. But I also think it's possible for games to appeal to fans outside of the genre - something this game does not do.

For example I'd argue that to some degree Soul Calibur 4 appeals to non-fighting fans, whereas a game like Virtua Fighter or Guilty Gear is pretty much only for true believers. I think God of War appeals to people in a way that Devil May Cry might not.

It's one thing if I'm finding bullshit faults that are solely a matter of personal preference. But the fact that there is no way to evaluate the worth of various skills is a valid complaint. The fact that the dialogue choices are rather charicaturish is a valid complaint. I reject that those are merely personal taste or that they are features of the genre rather than bugs. Arcade vs. simulation is a stylistic choice, a trite script is not.

Look at how adventure games fell off the map. People got tired of the stupid gameplay convention of clicking on every pixel and trying every item to solve one nonsense puzzle after another. Bad gameplay became a genre convention and "fans of the genre will like this" stopped meaning anything because most the fans moved on.

Many people in this thread seem to agree that the first hour of the game is not that great because it's largely tutorial and therefore boring, and I don't see why that should be considered some sort of immutable design law of CRPGs.

Wouldn't KOTOR be a better game if there was a better indication of what real use your skills would be? Or if you could respec in some fashion? If role-playing your character didn't conflict with a gameplay mechanic that encourages maximizing either light or dark? Seems like the answer is yes. "CRPGs don't work that way" is a weak rebuttal.

Again while I'm not a fan of the floating "!" at least Blizzard recognized that there was a problem that needed solving. Every town in every RPG you play you have to walk around to every damn person and talk to them in the hope they have something relevant to say. Instead of accepting that as a feature of the genre Blizzard recognized that it wasn't fun and did something about it.

[Bunk]

I'm not try to call you a stupidiot for not liking the game Margalis, I just found it kind of shocking that one of the more prominant writer types here didn't enjoy a game that's been lauded for it's story more than anything. I will agree, that the game had a somewhat slow start. Just as a warning, the intro to KotoR 2 is even worse - to the point that people wrote mods to allow you to skip it entirely.

While I would have liked the game to give more some more subtle good/bad options, I still really appreciated that there were essentially two different storylines worked through the game, based on how you played it. You had NPCs that would follow you either way, be certain ones favored one approach or the other. Really, I think one of the reasons you didn't get in to the story, is that you didn't get far enough to start interacting with the NPCs.

The whole game was designed to have the NPCs that were with you interject at certain points and start up conversations, which would start subquests and various other things, but really were meant to add to the story at the time. Also, they made it possible to play through more than once, using different NPCs and actually getting a different experience. If you ask people what they remember most about KotoR, it's almost always something to do with the NPCs: HK47, the NPC death WUA mentioned, how much you wanted to kill Carth, etc..

Oh, and as to the skill system - it's based on the standard d20 skill system. Your max skill level is your level plus three. You typically get six to eight skill points per level. If you mess up and ignore a skill that you find you need later, most of the time you can max that skill completely in one to two levels, so it really never was that big a deal.

Really, I think most of all, I feel sad for you in that you will never be in the club that just nods along and smiles whenever you here the word "Meatbag".

[Phildo]

I stopped reading this thread halfway down but I just felt I'd share: I absolutely LOVED KOTOR, but the first time I tried to play it I quit once I spent an hour running around on the planet.  It wasn't until later when I played and beat KOTOR 2 that I finally decided to go back and give it a try.  I was rewarded for sticking with it that second time.

I also thought the second hour of Half Life 1 was horribly boring and quit, again taking years off before beating the damn thing.

[Nevermore]

Hi, I don't like Star Wars or RPGs.  I think I'll review this Star Wars RPG!   

[Sky]

Maybe I should do a final fantasy biif.

[Cyrrex]

Really, I think most of all, I feel sad for you in that you will never be in the club that just nods along and smiles whenever you here the word "Meatbag".

Your whole post was spot on, particularly this last bit.

But yeah, KOTOR was a bit greater than the sum of its part, mainly because of the story and certain characters.  I'd like to think that Margalis would have eventually changed his tune had he sticked with it longer, but perhaps not.  I'll categorically state for the record, however, that anyone who managed to get to the HK47 parts and didn't think it was Teh Awesome must simply hate stuff that is awesome.

[Litigator]

There's always been a tension between real depth in the interactions with NPC characters in these RPGs and the need to not close off too many options. 

If your character can join different sides in various conflicts, then the actions of the NPCs and the quest stories and whatever have to be designed independently.  It seems like a waste of game design resources, because if two choices lead down two mutually exclusive quest chains, then most players will only see one of the chains, and if being the "good guy" or the "bad guy" in a game like KOTOR means you do significantly different stuff throughout the game, then the devs essentially have to make two games.

That leads to these vaunted morality systems basically adding up to a choice between being a good guy and being a good guy who is kind of an asshole. 

[Phildo]

That leads to these vaunted morality systems basically adding up to a choice between being a good guy and being a good guy who is kind of an asshole. 

Have you not played this game either?

[HaemishM]

It's certainly valid to play a game for an hour and review it. Your review will likely be short and negative, unless you're getting paid for it, in which case your review will likely be short and TEH AWESOME!!!!! Hell, I generally don't give games 30 minutes unless they show me the fun immediately.

KOTOR definitely rewards you for playing it longer, but it really does sound like you just don't like the accepted conventions of Western-story-heavy RPG's. KOTOR is kind of the epitome of that genre. Personally, I've been kind of burned out on those type of RPG's too, which is why I've barely scratched the surface of Oblivion.