KOTOR - Bioware - PC

[Musashi]

Yea, I really don't see a problem with the review.  I think it's a valid opinion of the genre that a fuckton of people have, including myself.  Dialog trees suck.  I understand the options that they provide.  But I don't care.  Reading quest text sucks.  I understand that some people like it, but I don't.  There are other ways to engage people in the story.  Use them.  I lasted longer in KOTOR than he did, but for 2 I did the same thing.

[Zane0]

KOTOR is a milquetoast fantasy RPG in sci-fi clothing, bound to its console limitations but unable to escape from its PC/D20 roots. The setting is obviously innovative and the engine is an ingenious compromise, but it is otherwise horrendously overrated. Everything from quest/interaction, to combat, to party mechanics, to story, is a simplified derivative of what the Infinity Engine games did, far better, years ago. Nothing is more blatant than simply being able to run around with a sword vibro-blade in the opening village planet, in a Star Wars game. Criminal.

If that is the epitome of Western RPGs, we would be in a bad fix.

Fortunately, Mass Effect (KOTOR 2.0) does successfully depart from a lot of basic conventions, and the new Obsidian properties show a lot of promise in the same way. KOTOR is really a transitional game, making way for a new type of Western Console RPG; it shouldn't be dwelled upon.

[Bunk]

It is perfectly valid in the context of these reviews, which is basicslly, did you have fun in the first couple hours of this game? We just feel the rabid need to point out that the game improves as it goes, and ultimately ends up being one of the best RPG games produced.

My standard to rate them is simple, I almost never finish RPGs. I've finished KotoR twice.

Oh and Stormwalz, if I find out that you were the one responsible for writing the Darkside encounter where your party member dies, I may have to kick your ass. Even though it was one of the most memorable moments I've had in an RPG.

[Tebonas]

Now my perfectly valid review of Chateau Lafitte I once tasted. I didn't like it, I tasted alcohol when I drank it. I don't like the taste of alcohol, but I thought Chateau Lafitte might try to go beyond the alcohol liking crowd. Sadly it didn't realize its full potential. But people who like the taste of alcohol might also like Chateau Lafitte.

[Velorath]

Yea, I really don't see a problem with the review.  I think it's a valid opinion of the genre that a fuckton of people have, including myself.  Dialog trees suck.  I understand the options that they provide.  But I don't care.  Reading quest text sucks.  I understand that some people like it, but I don't.  There are other ways to engage people in the story.  Use them.  I lasted longer in KOTOR than he did, but for 2 I did the same thing.

It's a valid opinion, but one that probably could have stated better if it was a topic on how CRPG's can be improved rather than a review of the first hour of a CRPG from someone who isn't really into a lot of the standards of CRPG's.  As an indicator to other people whether or not they might like the game, it's about as useful as reading the back of the box.

[Dtrain]

I think about the point in the game when you uninstalled, and how much you missed - getting to know HK-47, swapping war stories with Canderous, even putting up with Mission and "Big Z," all I can say is that you missed a good one.

The first western RPG I played where I felt overwhelmed by the choices I had was Baldur's Gate 2. I played through my initial disquietude, and I found a direction that took me through the rest of the game. I still find BG2 to be hands down the best RPG I have ever played. Entirely personal reflection, so don't be offended, but I feel a little ashamed that something as simple as choices would have caused in me such a panic.

I'll still put a western RPG down if I feel like I have too many choices, but that's usually if I'm in the wrong mindset (I'm looking at you, Oblivion - who I have finally resolved to play through.)

At the same time, I do enjoy JRPGs; but I can also feel a little railroaded by their presentation. If I don't finish a JRPG, it's usually because I've temporarily satiated some bizarre need to achieve that exists in some hollow part of my psyche.

In the end though, you don't have to share my experiences, so to each their own.

[Musashi]

Yea, I really don't see a problem with the review.  I think it's a valid opinion of the genre that a fuckton of people have, including myself.  Dialog trees suck.  I understand the options that they provide.  But I don't care.  Reading quest text sucks.  I understand that some people like it, but I don't.  There are other ways to engage people in the story.  Use them.  I lasted longer in KOTOR than he did, but for 2 I did the same thing.

It's a valid opinion, but one that probably could have stated better if it was a topic on how CRPG's can be improved rather than a review of the first hour of a CRPG from someone who isn't really into a lot of the standards of CRPG's.  As an indicator to other people whether or not they might like the game, it's about as useful as reading the back of the box.

I think the important thing to remember here is the Rule of Opinions and Assholes.  We assume here that you can safely disseminate for yourself what's useful to you and what's not.  I guess it might help you to not think of it so much as a review, but merely a consumer advisory warning.

"HOLY SHIT DIALOG.  NOT FUN.  OH GOD."

[Slayerik]

I never played KOTOR, so I hold no love or hate for it.

I wouldn't 'review' something after playing it for an hour and not leaving the starting area or tutorial. Sounds like you never wanted to like the game, so it wasn't hard not to. To each is own I guess though.

[WindupAtheist]

I never liked the D20 system, and in fact I've bitched around here multiple times in the past that "shitty combat system" seems to be some sort of RPG genre convention when it doesn't really need to be.  KOTOR isn't without it's flaws, but those flaws are far from crippling, because stuff like mechanics and combat aren't what the game is about anyway.

KOTOR is a story where you can affect the outcome, and the "game" stuff is just there to back that up.  At least in my view.  For example, I pretty much hated the Jedi Council.  They were a bunch of pompous helpless weenie douchebags, happy to spew their supposed wisdom at every opportunity, but who couldn't even clean out the Mandalorians pillaging townsfolk in their own backyard until I showed up.  I don't think you're "supposed" to feel that way.  I think you're supposed to want to save the galaxy on their behalf.  But I didn't, I just hated them.

Which made it all the more incredibly satisfying when I completely fucked them over.  The whole chain of events where Revan and Bastila lure the Republic fleet closer to the Star Forge and cause them to be annhilated was priceless.  That bit where Vandar realizes with mounting horror that the Battle Meditation is being used against them and not in their favor?  The moment before their ship explodes where he and Dodonna realize that they're doomed?  I laughed so hard.  I think I may have flipped off the screen as they blew up.

Shit, now I wanna play through this game again.

[Sjofn]

And yeah I know there are some where you can do that, which brings me to my second objection, which is: I don't want a party made up of 10 year old girls, thanks. (I'm looking RIGHT at you, Eternal Sonata.)

Polka was 14, man! March and Salsa and Beat (I  Beat for no good reason) were 8!

TOTALLY DIFFERENT!

[Nevermore]

 

[Teleku]

I really need to stop reading these sorts of threads.  Makes me want to light many people in this forum on fire.   

[Musashi]

KOTOR is a story where you can affect the outcome, and the "game" stuff is just there to back that up.  At least in my view. 

I don't think you can say it better than this.  And that's cool.  A paradigm shift in the genre.  I get it.  I heard it once described as a movie that you played.  But for some people, the game stuff is at least as important.  After all, there are better movies.

[Margalis]

I actually did want to like KOTOR because for years I'd heard people rave about the dialogue.

KOTOR is a story where you can affect the outcome, and the "game" stuff is just there to back that up.  At least in my view.  For example, I pretty much hated the Jedi Council.  They were a bunch of pompous helpless weenie douchebags, happy to spew their supposed wisdom at every opportunity, but who couldn't even clean out the Mandalorians pillaging townsfolk in their own backyard until I showed up.  I don't think you're "supposed" to feel that way.  I think you're supposed to want to save the galaxy on their behalf.  But I didn't, I just hated them.

I can understand this but to me stories based in the Star Wars universe aren't that compelling. I don't now what I was expecting but I suppose that because this takes place way in the past I was expecting something different from just more vanilla Star Wars. Jedi Council stuff feels like old hat now, maybe because I've unfortunately seen the 3 prequels.

I'm not totally opposed to stories told in the Star Wars universe but at least try to do something a little different. KOTOR is what, 1000 years in the past? Yet it seems pretty much the same as the prequels which were what 20 years before the main movies?

[Phildo]

Margalis, it's true that it's a prequel in a sense.  The point is that it's a prequel written by people who know how to write a good story and not one written by George "Destroyer of my Childhood" Lucas.

And to be fair to the OP, the point of a BiiF is to review a game based on the first few hours of playing.  It clearly wasn't fun for some people.  Hell, it wasn't fun for me either and if it hadn't been so heavily recommended years later I would never have picked it up again.  I changed my tune later, but my first impression of the game was very poor.

[Morat20]

Margalis, it's true that it's a prequel in a sense.  The point is that it's a prequel written by people who know how to write a good story and not one written by George "Destroyer of my Childhood" Lucas.

And to be fair to the OP, the point of a BiiF is to review a game based on the first few hours of playing.  It clearly wasn't fun for some people.  Hell, it wasn't fun for me either and if it hadn't been so heavily recommended years later I would never have picked it up again.  I changed my tune later, but my first impression of the game was very poor.

The KOTOR2 story -- if you ignore the, um, "end" or at least read up on what got cut -- actually rather cleverly back-edits the KOTOR1 story making it more complex. Then again, once I grasped what KOTOR2 was doing, the whole game was a rather good commentary on the intersections of free will and destiny, with one of the primary NPC's being basically a philosopher who is entirely bitter that the existance of the force infringes on the basics of free will.

KOTOR1 was worth it mostly for the dialogue -- HK47 was quite fun to have around, and I even got amused with Carth and Bastilla arguing. Especially when you egged them on.

Sadly,  KOTOR  suffers from "Being Dark Side Means Being a Douche" but 2 was far better on that front that one. In the second, you get quite a bit of the light side/dark side points from conversation. It's not entirely what you do, but why you do it. (And they do give you "Lie: I'm just trying to help!" sort of options.

My biggest problem with KOTOR is that it doesn't play with my graphics card all of a sudden, and I'd just gotten my son to try it (he's 12) and now it locks everytime an ion or plasma grenade goes off.

[NowhereMan]

I firmly believe that if KoTOR2 had been finished it would have been a much better game, or at least interactive story. As it is unless Team Gizka ever finish their fix I would never recommend anyone bother playing it simply because there's way too many unfinished or just hinted at side plots that make the whole thing confusing in terms of trying to follow the story. Which is a shame because like Morat said I think they were trying to tell a far more sophisticated tale than KoTOR's basic Dark vs. Light, pick one and chain lightening shit! Which was great fun and had some great moments but really was vanilla Star Wars.

[rk47]

 i think it peaked when I had the option to tell a bunch of jerks to give me their weapons, money and force intimidate them to jump off Nar Shaada.   

[Samwise]

People who are complaining that Marg didn't play enough of the game to review it need to look at the caption under the BiiF forum.

[Rasix]

That's been covered, smart guy. Discussion has moved a bit away from that.

Edit: Anyhow, rules or not.  A BiiF can still be subjectively bad in someone's eye.  The framework doesn't shield you from criticism.

[Samwise]

I only made it about halfway through the first page.  Every single post up to that point was commentary on how Margalis shouldn't review the game because he didn't finish it.  IN THE BIIF FORUM.  The overwhelmed me and I stopped reading.

Rating: Don't Read.

[Velorath]

I only made it about halfway through the first page.  Every single post up to that point was commentary on how Margalis shouldn't review the game because he didn't finish it.  IN THE BIIF FORUM.  The overwhelmed me and I stopped reading.

Rating: Don't Read.

Don't be fucking retarded, nobody said he had to finish the game.

[Reg]

Yes really. I'm perfectly aware that this forum is for fast reviews. But not even getting out of the tutorial? Give me a break.

[schild]

I didn't get out of the first tutorial the first time through. In fact, I hated the game for being so awful.

That said, quit bickering.

[Reg]

I didn't get out of the first tutorial the first time through. In fact, I hated the game for being so awful.

Aww c'mon. The game wasn't that terrible was it? I'm sure that there was nothing wrong that couldn't have been fixed with the addition of half a dozen big eyed androgenous pre-teen characters.

[Stormwaltz]

Oh and Stormwalz, if I find out that you were the one responsible for writing the Darkside encounter where your party member dies, I may have to kick your ass. Even though it was one of the most memorable moments I've had in an RPG.

I didn't start working here until near the end of Jade's development.

If you're talking about the one I think you are (SPOILER: you Jedi mind-trick Zaalbar into killing mission), that was Drew Karpyshyn, now the lead writer for the Mass games. He had to lobby hard to get that in the game.

[WindupAtheist]

I can understand this but to me stories based in the Star Wars universe aren't that compelling.

Then sitting down to play a story-based game set in the Star Wars universe was probably never going to end well for you, regardless of how well the skill selections were annotated.  There's nothing wrong with passing judgement on a game after an hour of play, but writing a review that amounts to "I played Stuff I Hate: The Game.  I didn't think it was very good." is bound to get people rolling their eyes.

[Samprimary]

I'd have been ready to review Lineage II after about an hour of gameplay. I think something like KOTOR is different in that it takes acclimatization to the story world and system, one of those things that's got to get its hooks in and evolve essentially to full gameplay before I could, in any intellectually fair sense, dismiss it. I am, of course, taking this position from an educated standpoint: I almost quit KOTOR after the tutorial regions but then started really digging it once I was cavorting around the galaxy. I'm super-disinterested in pre-IV star wars, too. Clone wars shit bores the crap out of me. the old republic did have its draws, though, and that's entirely the game dev's fault. :)

[Morat20]

Oh and Stormwalz, if I find out that you were the one responsible for writing the Darkside encounter where your party member dies, I may have to kick your ass. Even though it was one of the most memorable moments I've had in an RPG.

I didn't start working here until near the end of Jade's development.

If you're talking about the one I think you are (SPOILER: you Jedi mind-trick Zaalbar into killing mission), that was Drew Karpyshyn, now the lead writer for the Mass games. He had to lobby hard to get that in the game.

Good for him. Games should do more of that sort of thing, and it was a very "realistic" (from a Dark Side POV) thing to include. To me, that really drove home the Dark Side as being more than a greedy, callous, dickwad sort of thing. Being an ass to strangers, taking their stuff, and killing off random NPCs pales next to that sort of thing.

I will say this about KOTOR -- the reveal of one of the central plot points, complete with flashbacks, was VERY well done. Kind of doesn't hold up on replay, but at the time I was surprised.

KOTOR2, I liked how your half the exposition in the game was cleverly hidden as dialogue choices. Nobody had to tell you all the stuff you should have known -- what happened, and how you felt about it, was right there as possible responses to organic feeling conversations. Not as easy as an exposition, but a lot more effective.

[Nevermore]

I can understand this but to me stories based in the Star Wars universe aren't that compelling.

Then sitting down to play a story-based game set in the Star Wars universe was probably never going to end well for you, regardless of how well the skill selections were annotated.  There's nothing wrong with passing judgement on a game after an hour of play, but writing a review that amounts to "I played Stuff I Hate: The Game.  I didn't think it was very good." is bound to get people rolling their eyes.

Exactly.  It's like sending a vegan to review a steak restaurant.  What the hell is the point?  Doesn't matter if the review was an hour or a week.

[Sky]

Srsly, someone get me a pc version of a jrpg to biif. Do they even make such a thing? 

[Rasix]

Srsly, someone get me a pc version of a jrpg to biif. Do they even make such a thing? 

Grandia II.  FF7 was also ported to PC.  Both are rather old though.

You could play FF2 or FF3 (4 and 6 in JP) on an emulator.  You'd probably have an easier time getting past the art direction with these.  The results may result in your imminent death, however.

[Zane0]

Which made it all the more incredibly satisfying when I completely fucked them over.  The whole chain of events where Revan and Bastila lure the Republic fleet closer to the Star Forge and cause them to be annihilated was priceless.  That bit where Vandar realizes with mounting horror that the Battle Meditation is being used against them and not in their favor?  The moment before their ship explodes where he and Dodonna realize that they're doomed?  I laughed so hard.  I think I may have flipped off the screen as they blew up.

This was good stuff, for sure, and there wasn't enough of it.

Sadly, most of the dark side options were about being a big dumb psychopath more than anything else, as we all know. In that sense, the end-game shift from brute to amoral superstar was certainly welcome, but it didn't lend any sort of overall coherence to the personality of the main character or to the story arc. KOTOR II -brilliantly- even makes use of this sad house of cards to help build Revan into a mysterious and inscrutable figure with an agenda that the player of KOTOR 1 has no conception of.

Guh. As far as RPGs in general go, I'd really prefer it if developers could abstain from adding 'evil choices' entirely if they fail to make sense in the context of a greater narrative -- any conversation node that people immediately dismiss until they're going through their mandatory psycho-killer playthrough.. what exactly is being accomplished with that, and who are you appealing to?

[Margalis]

Again, I wouldn't be opposed to a Star Wars based story if it had a little of something I haven't already seen a billion times. KOTOR is based 1000 years in the past or something right? Could anyone have guessed that by playing? Everything about it is essentially contemporary.

[rk47]

  it's star wars. it's george lucas. After the prequels. Come on. It's gotta be awesome after the shit storm that was Episode 1.
Right, let me try hinting on KOTOR 2 awesomeness

How about a game that actually explains why seemingly random people joined you? and a game that actually justified you as an evil that must be stopped because no matter where you go, people die and you get stronger (more levels) from planet to planet, leaving a trail of slaughter behind you? Despite all of this hatred they were all wrong, because they simply too prideful to admit their mistakes and still insists theirs were the right way?  Yes. The Jedi is represented in a totally different light in the sequel. KOTOR 1 was too black and white, the sequel shone brilliantly despite the hacked ending, the script made for an awesome story. I didn't care if the combat sucked, the writing was good enough for a movie. The Exile's story is MUCH better than Revan and it's a shame EA is making Bioware go MMO route with the license instead of tying up the loose ends.