WAR to be released...

[Mrbloodworth]

Show me on the doll where LOTRO touched you.

Right here on the "most boring game ever created followed by no end game and grindy as all fucking get out deed system" part of the doll.  It's just left of the crotch.

I thought your standard was Wow?

[cevik]

Show me on the doll where LOTRO touched you.

Right here on the "most boring game ever created followed by no end game and grindy as all fucking get out deed system" part of the doll.  It's just left of the crotch.

I thought your standard was Wow?

While I don't think WoW was the greatest game ever created, or anything of the like (evidenced by the fact that until today I had 2 Warhammer CEs on preorder), LoTRO could ship with 20 grams of crack in the box and it still wouldn't be able to compete with WoW.

[amiable]

Show me on the doll where LOTRO touched you.

Right here on the "most boring game ever created followed by no end game and grindy as all fucking get out deed system" part of the doll.  It's just left of the crotch.

And this differs from AoC how?  At least in LOTRO you could quest your way to max level and the quests were usually far more story/flavor intensive than "I need 10 bear asses).  I will give you the deeds, that is a retarded mechanic, but not necessary to enjoy the game.  

The end game PvE content is great if you are looking for a game focused on challenging 6-12 man dungeons.  PvP was terrible (as I stated above), but this is THE game for small group PvE.  

[Soln]

Hmm.  Has Jacobs and team been hyping this lately? Or gone quiet?  I haven't been following, it's why I ask.

Otherwise, yeah -- this is ominous.

[cevik]

And this differs from AoC how?  At least in LOTRO you could quest your way to max level and the quests were usually far more story/flavor intensive than "I need 10 bear asses).  I will give you the deeds, that is a retarded mechanic, but not necessary to enjoy the game.  

The end game PvE content is great if you are looking for a game focused on challenging 6-12 man dungeons.  PvP was terrible (as I stated above), but this is THE game for small group PvE.  

The endgame in LotRO was patched in long after I quit, as I understand it.  As far as the leveling in LotRO vs the leveling in AoC, two different worlds.  LotRO was the worst, slowest combat system ever designed in a mmog combined with a horribly slow and grindy (grinding on quests instead of on mobs) leveling system.  AoC was a fast combat system that was unique and fun (not just "WoW, only slower!" like LotRO) and a way to fast leveling system (which led to lots of "zomg you shouldn't be able to level up in 4 days /played" posts around here).

But weren't we talking about Warhammer online?  Ohh yeah, Mythic won't let us talk about it so we have to troll about other games instead, smart move Mythic, smart move.

[Mrbloodworth]

Show me on the doll where LOTRO touched you.

Right here on the "most boring game ever created followed by no end game and grindy as all fucking get out deed system" part of the doll.  It's just left of the crotch.

I thought your standard was Wow?

While I don't think WoW was the greatest game ever created, or anything of the like (evidenced by the fact that until today I had 2 Warhammer CEs on preorder), LoTRO could ship with 20 grams of crack in the box and it still wouldn't be able to compete with WoW.

Funny, all the new things coming form LOTRO over to Wow. Anyway.....

You derailed into your MMO nerd rage when people were citing examples of how MMO have kept the NDA, and yet still produced a full content game. It had nothing to do with liked or dislikes.

LOTRO did what Warhammer is doing, and is still possibly one of the finest crafted MMO's created. Regardless of your personal opinion of its mechanics and game play.

It meet its target audience, had a smooth launch, looks superb, runs great, stable servers, little bugs, constant full additions, ETC... craftsmanship all the way, even if it is more or less a progression and refinement of what came before.

Granted, i think its a flook in a world of rushed , incomplete, games but , there it is.

[cevik]

Funny, all the new things coming form LOTRO over to Wow. Anyway.....

You derailed into your MMO nerd rage when people were citing examples of how MMO have kept the NDA, and yet still produced a full content game. It had nothing to do with liked or dislikes.

I'm not raging, I'm just pointing out that LotRO did what Warhammer is doing, and then it bombed horribly.

Just because it's your opinion that the game is good doesn't make it so.  Bad news for ya, the rest of the world didn't agree with you.

[amiable]

The endgame in LotRO was patched in long after I quit, as I understand it.  As far as the leveling in LotRO vs the leveling in AoC, two different worlds.  LotRO was the worst, slowest combat system ever designed in a mmog combined with a horribly slow and grindy (grinding on quests instead of on mobs) leveling system.  AoC was a fast combat system that was unique and fun (not just "WoW, only slower!" like LotRO) and a way to fast leveling system (which led to lots of "zomg you shouldn't be able to level up in 4 days /played" posts around here).

The markets were different hence the differences in gameplay.

LOTRO was a PvE game that delivered good PvE.  
AOC was a PvP game tht failed at PvP.

If you didn't like the game mechanics, I guess I have nothing to say about that besides we will have to agree to disagree.

Feel free to ressurect this thread in three months.  Take that as you will.

[Mrbloodworth]

LOTRO bombed?

News to me.

[tazelbain]

Wouldn't the issue more be if the NDA is level restricted like AoC.

But right now the NDA is still in place for all content and they are level restricting the "Open" beta, which is really a 9 day pre-order sneak peak that is level capped and content restricted.  So what's your point again?

Its funny to see you go in to combat mode over this.  Why weren't you so skepital over AoC where the Developers weren't a quarter as forth comming about the game as WAR?  Seems like you are blaming WAR for you foolishness with AoC.

The key question in my mind is will the beta players (who know the current state of the game best) be able to speak their mind before the release.  In the case of AoC, they never could.  It doesn't matter if the "open" beta is level restricted as long as the NDA goes down and we can talk with people who know about current state of the game.

[HaemishM]

Using LotRO as a measuring stick for whether it's a good idea to drop the NDA is really   LotRO was a BORING BORING game. I lasted hours in that beta. It wasn't worth the effort. And as soon as the NDA dropped, I told anyone that asked about it. I think I even blogged about it. It also has not set the world on fire in terms of sales or subscriptions. It's generally thought of as being at best a minor success with most disappointed that such a visible IP couldn't garner more subs than say DAoC. So if you are saying that LotRO not dropping its NDA is a sign that Warhammer shouldn't drop its NDA, then you are telling me that Warhammer is about as fun as LotRO, meaning it isn't very fun at all at least to me. And of course, since you are under NDA, you can't tell me that anyway nor can you tell me how wrong that is.

See the problem with still having the NDA? Right now, I'm less inclined to buy the game on release than I would be if you could tell me about it.

[cevik]

LOTRO bombed?

News to me.

It peaked at 200k subscribers and has gone down from there.  Fuck it couldn't even reach EQ1 levels, you think it succeeded?

You realize that the acronym stands for Lord of the Rings, right?  You seriously think that a LotR branded mmog that couldn't even get close to EQ1 levels of subscribers was a success?  You honestly think that?

[Mrbloodworth]

Its depends.

Do you want the NDA dropped because you want to know if the game is finished (AKA not buggy, features in ETC...)?

Or do you want it dropped to know if its Fun?

[Triforcer]

I'll play a game that's both buggy and fun (at least for awhile).  I won't play a game that's unbuggy and unfun. 

EDIT:  Note to MMO devs:  My lawyers have advised me that the above statement does not constitute permission to release a buggy game 

[amiable]

Using LotRO as a measuring stick for whether it's a good idea to drop the NDA is really   LotRO was a BORING BORING game.

Which  is precisely what I wasn't doing.  I was using LOTRO as an example of a game that was complete but had a level restriciton on open beta.  Your issue is with LOTRO's gameplay which you didn't like at level 1.  Fair enough.  But the game was complete, even though they only let you level up a limited amount during open beta.  The claims being made  on this board are that if a game does not allow full leveling capability in open Beta it is defacto incomplete.  I am just giving an example where that statement is not true.

[cevik]

Its funny to see you go in to combat mode over this.  Why weren't you so skepital over AoC where the Developers weren't a quarter as forth comming about the game as WAR?  Seems like you are blaming WAR for you foolishness with AoC.

1)  This isn't combat mode, this is bored at work and watching Blood say stupid things like "LotRO didn't bomb!" mode.

2)  I didn't follow AoC or preorder it or play it on release (I bought it a week after release).  I was highly skeptical about AoC for two reasons:  a)  Funcom has a history of failure and b)  I hate the Conan IP.  Because of that I had no interest in ever playing the game and didn't in any way follow it (and openly laughed at it when I saw it advertised).  I was bored after it released and decided to pick it up, played it, it was better than I expected.  I came here and people were outright lying about WoW's release (the servers NEVER CRASHED EVAR!!11!) and so I pointed out that people are a little.. stupid.  I was branded a fanboi.

[Mrbloodworth]

LOTRO bombed?

News to me.

It peaked at 200k subscribers and has gone down from there.  Fuck it couldn't even reach EQ1 levels, you think it succeeded?

You realize that the acronym stands for Lord of the Rings, right?  You seriously think that a LotR branded mmog that couldn't even get close to EQ1 levels of subscribers was a success?  You honestly think that?

Did they make their money back? Is everyone getting paid? Is there an expansion coming out? Are investors happy? Are customers happy? Is a profit being made?


Your version of unsuccessful, and "bombed" is not mine.

[Hawkbit]

Another hour passes, another change to gamestop's website.  They've now got boxart and in place of the beta info, this:

    

Reserve Warhammer® Online: Age of Reckoning™ and receive: Open Beta Access: Be one of the first players to experience the glory of battle and the thrill of WAR! Live Game Head Start: Reserve customers will get a 3-day head start on the battlefields of WAR. Bonus In-Game Items: Equip your characters for the journey to the frontlines with Rittenbach’s Portable Camp and the Sentinel’s Amber Band. ONLINE/IN-STORE PICKUP CUSTOMERS: You will receive a pre-order box containing the pre-order codes. Please provide a valid email address at time of purchase. STORE CUSTOMERS: Special pre-order boxes are available containing the above bonuses. Boxes available in-store week of August 4. Please call ahead to confirm availability.

[cevik]

The claims being made  on this board are that if a game does not allow full leveling capability in open Beta it is defacto incomplete.

I think the claim was that if the game is capped during beta and doesn't lift the NDA before release, then the odds are it's not a good game.

No one said, or at least truly meant, that it was "defacto incomplete".  We're just saying that the way Mythic is behaving makes their game appear, at this point, a lot like a host of other bad games that have been released, thus it makes us suspicious.

[amiable]

No one said, or at least truly meant, that it was "defacto incomplete".  We're just saying that the way Mythic is behaving makes their game appear, at this point, a lot like a host of other bad games that have been released, thus it makes us suspicious.

Uh, yeah, folks were making that claim.

Level-restricting an open beta just makes me think that the restricted parts aren't done. It also reminds me of DAoC where entire level bands of content just were not finished.

[cevik]

Did they make their money back? Is everyone getting paid? Is there an expansion coming out? Are investors happy? Are customers happy? Is a profit being made?


Your version of unsuccessful, and "bombed" is not mine.

Did they make their money back?  I don't know, have a link?

Is there an expansion coming out?  SWG had an expansion, and it too bombed.

Are the investors happy?  Turbine isn't public, but I suspect they've had to do a lot of answering to the investors.

Are the customers happy?  I'd say no, since the subscriptions started dropping and then Turbine stopped telling us what the numbers were.  Anecdotal:  I certainly wasn't a happy customer, my wife wasn't a happy customer, my 3 friends that played the game weren't happy customers, the guild I was in that fell apart wasn't full of happy customers.

Is a profit being made?  No idea, Turbine isn't public as best I can tell, so I don't think either of us know that.

What's your point again?

[cevik]

No one said, or at least truly meant, that it was "defacto incomplete".  We're just saying that the way Mythic is behaving makes their game appear, at this point, a lot like a host of other bad games that have been released, thus it makes us suspicious.

Uh, yeah, folks were making that claim.

Level-restricting an open beta just makes me think that the restricted parts aren't done. It also reminds me of DAoC where entire level bands of content just were not finished.

You don't know what the words de facto mean, do you?

He wasn't saying "level restricting means that it's incomplete", the example you quoted is him saying level restricting "makes me think" that parts aren't done.  Which is EXACTLY what I was saying above.  We aren't saying that level restricting makes it a fact that the content isn't done, it just makes us think it's not done.

[kildorn]

I really wish they'd drop the NDAs for warhammer already. You don't need them past the alpha stage, and it just makes people scared of the product's quality.

I disliked LOTRO. Pretty game, but I just didn't enjoy it at all.

also: 

[amiable]

No one said, or at least truly meant, that it was "defacto incomplete".  We're just saying that the way Mythic is behaving makes their game appear, at this point, a lot like a host of other bad games that have been released, thus it makes us suspicious.

Uh, yeah, folks were making that claim.

Level-restricting an open beta just makes me think that the restricted parts aren't done. It also reminds me of DAoC where entire level bands of content just were not finished.

You don't know what the words de facto mean, do you?

He wasn't saying "level restricting means that it's incomplete", the example you quoted is him saying level restricting "makes me think" that parts aren't done.  Which is EXACTLY what I was saying above.  We aren't saying that level restricting makes it a fact that the content isn't done, it just makes us think it's not done.

From merriam-webster:

Main Entry: 2de facto
Function: adjective
Date: circa 1689
1: actual; especially : being such in effect though not formally recognized <a de facto state of war>
2: exercising power as if legally constituted <a de facto government>
3: resulting from economic or social factors rather than from laws or actions of the state <de facto segregation>

Seriosuly dude.  All you have left is trying to grammar nazi (poorly) my response.  Lol.

(I will cut you some slack though as I got busted trying to use wikipedia to "prove me is smart" in another thread recently.)

[Tarami]

Did they make their money back? Is everyone getting paid? Is there an expansion coming out? Are investors happy? Are customers happy? Is a profit being made?


Your version of unsuccessful, and "bombed" is not mine.

Did they make their money back?  I don't know, have a link?

Is there an expansion coming out?  SWG had an expansion, and it too bombed.

Are the investors happy?  Turbine isn't public, but I suspect they've had to do a lot of answering to the investors.

Are the customers happy?  I'd say no, since the subscriptions started dropping and then Turbine stopped telling us what the numbers were.  Anecdotal:  I certainly wasn't a happy customer, my wife wasn't a happy customer, my 3 friends that played the game weren't happy customers, the guild I was in that fell apart wasn't full of happy customers.

Is a profit being made?  No idea, Turbine isn't public as best I can tell, so I don't think either of us know that.

What's your point again?

1) Everything points to it being Turbine's most successful game. It has launched in the US, EU, Japan and China, counting 30+ servers. Money back? We can but speculate. Empty servers don't exist in any case.

2) This fall.
http://www.lotro.com/moria

3) 40 million in venture in May this year. Should mean something.
http://arstechnica.com/journals/thumbs.ars/2008/05/02/lord-of-the-rings-online-developer-turbine-raises-40-million

4) Subscriptions have been increasing, that's the only "number" Turbine has EVER let out. They've NEVER mentioned subscription numbers.

5) You're right, we can't make off-hand assumptions.

[cevik]

Did they make their money back? Is everyone getting paid? Is there an expansion coming out? Are investors happy? Are customers happy? Is a profit being made?


Your version of unsuccessful, and "bombed" is not mine.

Did they make their money back?  I don't know, have a link?

Is there an expansion coming out?  SWG had an expansion, and it too bombed.

Are the investors happy?  Turbine isn't public, but I suspect they've had to do a lot of answering to the investors.

Are the customers happy?  I'd say no, since the subscriptions started dropping and then Turbine stopped telling us what the numbers were.  Anecdotal:  I certainly wasn't a happy customer, my wife wasn't a happy customer, my 3 friends that played the game weren't happy customers, the guild I was in that fell apart wasn't full of happy customers.

Is a profit being made?  No idea, Turbine isn't public as best I can tell, so I don't think either of us know that.

What's your point again?

1) Everything points to it being Turbine's most successful game. It has launched in the US, EU, Japan and China, counting 30+ servers. Money back? We can but speculate. Empty servers don't exist in any case.

2) This fall.
http://www.lotro.com/moria

3) 40 million in venture in May this year. Should mean something.
http://arstechnica.com/journals/thumbs.ars/2008/05/02/lord-of-the-rings-online-developer-turbine-raises-40-million

4) Subscriptions have been increasing, that's the only "number" Turbine has EVER let out. They've NEVER mentioned subscription numbers.

5) You're right, we can't make off-hand assumptions.

For the record, I've been with companies that have raised millions in capital and, while signing the check, I've had the investors berate us for not being further along than we were.  Some people throw bad money after good.

As for the rest, the answer to Blood's questions are "no one fucking knows". 

It certainly looks like a bomb to me.  A pretty massive on at that.

[Simond]

I thought everyone was Discussing the releace, and NDA's "To drop or not to drop".

We were, and I'm saying "not drop" means "no preorder".  That seems like a safe bet.  Some people are saying "ohh the game's fine, we just can't say anything because of the NDA."  If they are right, so far not dropping the NDA has been a stupid move on Mythic's part.

No one said that.

Of course nobody said that - they cannot, because the NDA is still up! 

[cevik]

From merriam-webster:

Main Entry: 2de facto
Function: adjective
Date: circa 1689
1: actual; especially : being such in effect though not formally recognized <a de facto state of war>
2: exercising power as if legally constituted <a de facto government>
3: resulting from economic or social factors rather than from laws or actions of the state <de facto segregation>

Seriosuly dude.  All you have left is trying to grammar nazi (poorly) my response.  Lol.

(I will cut you some slack though as I got busted trying to use wikipedia to "prove me is smart" in another thread recently.)

Huh?  you're just babbling nonsense now.  Haemish (paraphrased for the blood's amongst us) "level capping the beta makes me think the game is incomplete".  You said "you guys are stupid for saying that games are "of the fact" not complete if the beta is restricted".  I then responded "we're not saying that the beta restriction makes it a fact that it's not complete, we're saying it makes us think it has the potential to not be complete."  Then you uttered some nonsense that I'm being a grammar nazi (and a poor one at that).

We aren't saying that the level capped beta makes it a fact that the game is not complete.  We are saying it makes it appear that the game has the potential to not be complete.  If you can't see the difference between those statements then you're just.. well.. as stupid as blood.

[Ingmar]

OK, perspective people. Neither LOTRO nor SWG 'bombed'.

Auto Assault bombed.

[kildorn]

OK, perspective people. Neither LOTRO nor SWG 'bombed'.

Auto Assault bombed.

Bombed doesn't begin to describe whatever it is auto assault did.


LOTRO definitely did not bomb however. I didn't like it, but it did well for itself.

[HaemishM]

Using LotRO as a measuring stick for whether it's a good idea to drop the NDA is really   LotRO was a BORING BORING game.

Which  is precisely what I wasn't doing.  I was using LOTRO as an example of a game that was complete but had a level restriciton on open beta.  Your issue is with LOTRO's gameplay which you didn't like at level 1.  Fair enough.  But the game was complete, even though they only let you level up a limited amount during open beta.  The claims being made  on this board are that if a game does not allow full leveling capability in open Beta it is defacto incomplete.  I am just giving an example where that statement is not true.

No, I'm saying that restricting levels in an Open Beta on top of keeping an NDA going this long will make me THINK it's incomplete. The reality may be completely different, but you know, no one can tell me if this is reality or just my perception. And if I perceive a game is incomplete on release, I'M NOT BUYING IT. Thus, keeping an NDA this long and having a feature-restricted open beta are contributing to the loss of one potential customer.

[amiable]

From merriam-webster:

Main Entry: 2de facto
Function: adjective
Date: circa 1689
1: actual; especially : being such in effect though not formally recognized <a de facto state of war>
2: exercising power as if legally constituted <a de facto government>
3: resulting from economic or social factors rather than from laws or actions of the state <de facto segregation>

Seriosuly dude.  All you have left is trying to grammar nazi (poorly) my response.  Lol.

(I will cut you some slack though as I got busted trying to use wikipedia to "prove me is smart" in another thread recently.)

Huh?  you're just babbling nonsense now.  Haemish (paraphrased for the blood's amongst us) "level capping the beta makes me think the game is incomplete".  You said "you guys are stupid for saying that games are "of the fact" not complete if the beta is restricted".  I then responded "we're not saying that the beta restriction makes it a fact that it's not complete, we're saying it makes us think it has the potential to not be complete."  Then you uttered some nonsense that I'm being a grammar nazi (and a poor one at that).

We aren't saying that the level capped beta makes it a fact that the game is not complete.  We are saying it makes it appear that the game has the potential to not be complete.  If you can't see the difference between those statements then you're just.. well.. as stupid as blood.

haemish's  full statement:

"Level-restricting an open beta just makes me think that the restricted parts aren't done. It also reminds me of DAoC where entire level bands of content just were not finished."

My statement:

" The claims being made  on this board are that if a game does not allow full leveling capability in open Beta it is defacto incomplete."

I was using the term defacto as an adjective to modify "incomplete".

It would be synonomous to say:

The claims being made on this board are that if a game does not allow full leveling capability in open Beta it is actually incomplete.

Now are you arguing that Haemish's statment did not, in fact, state exactly that?

You have chosen a single definition for defacto and decided that is the only one you will apply, and then claimed I used it incorrectly. You are indeed being a grammar nazi, and a bad one at that.  You are the one who does not knwo what "defacto" means or its proper usage.

Edit to adress haemish:   So if I say because John Mcain slept around on his wife I think John Mccain has Herpes.  I can use the fact that I said "I think" as a defense for a defamation suit.

Please.  Using the qualifier "makes me think" does not change the fact that you are suggsting games that do not allow open leveling in Beta are actually incomplete.

[HaemishM]

Look, fuckhead, read the post RIGHT ABOVE YOURS. I did not state what you said I did. You even fucking quoted what I said and STILL you think I said what I did not say.

I'm talking about perception based on lack of information.

[cevik]

haemish's  full statement:

"Level-restricting an open beta just makes me think that the restricted parts aren't done. It also reminds me of DAoC where entire level bands of content just were not finished."

My statement:

" The claims being made  on this board are that if a game does not allow full leveling capability in open Beta it is defacto incomplete."

I was using the term defacto as an adjective to modify "incomplete".

It would be synonomous to say:

The claims being made on this board are that if a game does not allow full leveling capability in open Beta it is actually incomplete.

Now are you arguing that Haemish's statment did not, in fact, state exactly that?

You have chosen a single definition for defacto and decided that is the only one you will apply, and then claimed I used it incorrectly. You are indeed being a grammar nazi, and a bad one at that.  You are the one who does not knwo what "defacto" means or its proper usage.

Yes I am absofuckinglutely saying that.  He said and you just fucking quoted him 3 times now it makes him "think" those parts are not done.

Can you not see the difference between saying "I think those parts aren't done" and "those parts actually aren't done"?  Are you really this dense?

[Triforcer]

This is the greatest thread in months.