WAR to be released...

[cevik]

Think if WOW's gear topped out at dungeon blues. You could get them via dungeons or from marks from pvp. No epics.

That's the difference. There is no post level cap grind for phat loot that opens up more phat loot. It doesn't exist. The shit you got when leveling to the cap is the shit you use at the cap.

It will be like that in WoW, just after the release of WotLK, just like it was like that immediately after TBC and before that immediately after release.  And it will be like that for release in WAR.

Then mudflation will happen.  

You seem to be under the impression that everyone is going to login to WAR and fight all night every night with no specific character advancement goal.  It won't happen, the game will die if people can't advance their characters in some way past max level, there will be no reason to play.  That advancement always leads to the haves and the bitches.  It's the same as it ever was.

[tazelbain]

Not really. In WoW if you're not in epics, you're probably going to get flat out rolled in pvp. Especially if you lack any pvp epics.

WAR has a much lower top tier of gear, same with DAOC. Got your SC'd/Crafted 99% set? Go nuts, you're on near stat parity with everyone else.

Can a 1st level character contribute meaningfully (or at least have a good time) with maxed-out characters?

A level 1 only needs to compete with a level 11 in WAR.  And with the mentor to level 8 hp/armor level can contribute to the team and have some fun.

[Abelian75]

Yeah, I don't really understand where these assertions that WAR won't have a gear gap are coming from.

[Draegan]

And besides, WAR does have poopsock PvE - they just need to be unlocked by poopsock PvP first.

WAR doesn't have poopsock PVE that I'm aware of.  I havn't heard anything that takes hours of prep farming and hours to complete.  Then again perhaps killing a city King does.  *shrug*

[cevik]

Claiming that only the hardcore can PvE in WoW is just silly.

Given that the most accessiable raid (Karahzan) takes aprox. 4 hours front to back if your execuation is perfect, thats excatly what I'm claiming.

We 4 hour clear kara on our drunk nights, if we get serious about it we can 3 hour clear it.  You can also split it up into 2 two hour nights if you like, there is even a mechanic speficially designed into the raid that easily allows you to split it into 3 chunks (clear to the opera, next night use back door and clear to shade, next night warp to shade and clear the rest).

It's nothing at all like PvE used to be (you never would have lasted through the break into the plane of hate, much less a full clear).  And it's certainly nothing like what a real guild battle in WAR is going to be 6 months from now.

[cevik]

Yeah, I don't really understand where these assertions that WAR won't have a gear gap are coming from.

Wishful thinking.

[Simond]

And besides, WAR does have poopsock PvE - they just need to be unlocked by poopsock PvP first.

WAR doesn't have poopsock PVE that I'm aware of.  I havn't heard anything that takes hours of prep farming and hours to complete.  Then again perhaps killing a city King does.  *shrug*

40 man PvE raid, unlocked by PvP, in a PvP-heavy game. It's going to take a hour minimum to just get everyone pointing in the right direction. 

[amiable]

Yeah, I don't really understand where these assertions that WAR won't have a gear gap are coming from.

Wishful thinking.

There will be a gear gap, the question will be the degree.  Will gear make you 10% better, or turn you into kung-fu Jesus? 

Edited for NDA.

[Rasix]

You shouldn't be talking about your experiences in Elder.

[Dren]

Karazhan is a casual instance (other than getting 10 people together to do it) that rewards you with more lewtz and badges than any other content in the game.  It is a pinata ready to be smacked once a week.  It has almost become like Diablo where you keep going into the same area over and over when it resets to pull the lever and see what comes out THIS time!  It is just missing the little jingle noise when the boss drops.

All I'm seeing here is that WoW is the same as WAR only different.  The biggest difference is that WAR will be new and have that great new game smell too it.  It is that smell that makes you high and causes you to forget what MMO's become after 6 months.

I'm still interested in seeing what the differences are in WAR and will most likely buy it, but I'm not going to expect to see everyone playing on the same playing field regardless of time spent.  Day 1?  Yes.  Month 6? No.

[Draegan]

And besides, WAR does have poopsock PvE - they just need to be unlocked by poopsock PvP first.

WAR doesn't have poopsock PVE that I'm aware of.  I havn't heard anything that takes hours of prep farming and hours to complete.  Then again perhaps killing a city King does.  *shrug*

40 man PvE raid, unlocked by PvP, in a PvP-heavy game. It's going to take a hour minimum to just get everyone pointing in the right direction. 

There are no 40 man pve raids though.  If I understand things correctly all the PVE content that requires you to group is all single group stuff.  


Edit:

Also I hope WAR is a hit so there can be epic forums wars of WOW vs. WAR.

[cevik]

There will be a gear gap, the question will be the degree.  Will gear make you 10% better, or turn you into kung-fu Jesus?  My experiences in Elder tend toward the former.

It's really a bad idea to look at your beta experiences and think that once the game is released it will stick to the same formula.  Once release occurs and the characters are static and have months and months to plug at the same stuff, the poopsockers will have gear that turns them into kung-fu Jesus.

If the poopsockers do not get this gear, then the game is doomed anyways, because people don't play games without a goal.  They need a reason to log in every night, if they do not have that reason (and no, pwning newbs for no reward is not a reason), then they will not log in.

[Soln]

Wait.  No one has asked about the leveling curve:  is WAR on par with current WoW?  I can hit a new level or more under 60 in an hour in WoW these days if I want.  And I do want that.


What is the pre-endgame WAR grind like?

[Kirth]

We 4 hour clear kara on our drunk nights, if we get serious about it we can 3 hour clear it.  You can also split it up into 2 two hour nights if you like, there is even a mechanic speficially designed into the raid that easily allows you to split it into 3 chunks (clear to the opera, next night use back door and clear to shade, next night warp to shade and clear the rest).

but your not  "any scrub" , and I'm aware of the raid mechanics of being able to split your time spent in kara.

It's nothing at all like PvE used to be (you never would have lasted through the break into the plane of hate, much less a full clear).  And it's certainly nothing like what a real guild battle in WAR is going to be 6 months from now.

I know what EQ pve was like.

[Kirth]

Wait.  No one has asked about the leveling curve:  is WAR on par with current WoW?  I can hit a new level or more under 60 in an hour in WoW these days if I want.  And I do want that.


What is the pre-endgame WAR grind like?

Depends, the ranks come pretty quickly. Renown does'nt keep on par with normal leveling however.

[cevik]

There are no 40 man pve raids though.  If I understand things correctly all the PVE content that requires you to group is all single group stuff.  

I believe you are wrong.

[Ingmar]

Think if WOW's gear topped out at dungeon blues. You could get them via dungeons or from marks from pvp. No epics.

That's the difference. There is no post level cap grind for phat loot that opens up more phat loot. It doesn't exist. The shit you got when leveling to the cap is the shit you use at the cap.

It will be like that in WoW, just after the release of WotLK, just like it was like that immediately after TBC and before that immediately after release.  And it will be like that for release in WAR.

Then mudflation will happen.  

You seem to be under the impression that everyone is going to login to WAR and fight all night every night with no specific character advancement goal.  It won't happen, the game will die if people can't advance their characters in some way past max level, there will be no reason to play.  That advancement always leads to the haves and the bitches.  It's the same as it ever was.

If it is like DAOC the advancement will come via realm points, not gear. DAOC didn't break down and indulge in gear mudflation until TOA, and the existence of 'classic' non-TOA servers indicates that Mythic understands what a colossal fuckup TOA was.

I suspect Kild is right about this one.

[Kirth]

There are no 40 man pve raids though.  If I understand things correctly all the PVE content that requires you to group is all single group stuff.  

I believe you are wrong.

No his right. The only traditonal raid is kings. King raids are instanced, only open after you capture a captial and are caped at 24 and your locked out after you do it until next city capture.

[cevik]

If it is like DAOC the advancement will come via realm points, not gear. DAOC didn't break down and indulge in gear mudflation until TOA, and the existence of 'classic' non-TOA servers indicates that Mythic understands what a colossal fuckup TOA was.

I suspect Kild is right about this one.

Either there is end game advancement and they get more than the 300k I predicted or there isn't and they end up dependent on the meta game and shit talking to keep people playing.

Besides, Realm Points or ubar Gear doesn't make a difference, mudflation doesn't have to be through gear, it's just something that gives the more "hardcore" player an advantage over the lesser player.  If that's through accruing realm points and getting the l33t skills or raiding and getting gear it doesn't make that much of a difference.

[cevik]

There are no 40 man pve raids though.  If I understand things correctly all the PVE content that requires you to group is all single group stuff.  

I believe you are wrong.

No his right. The only traditonal raid is kings. King raids are instanced, only open after you capture a captial and are caped at 24 and your locked out after you do it until next city capture.

I apologize, 24 man raids, not 40.  Same difference though, the scrubs won't be there the hardcore will and a gear differential will occur.

[Mrbloodworth]

If it is like DAOC the advancement will come via realm points, not gear. DAOC didn't break down and indulge in gear mudflation until TOA, and the existence of 'classic' non-TOA servers indicates that Mythic understands what a colossal fuckup TOA was.

I suspect Kild is right about this one.

Either there is end game advancement and they get more than the 300k I predicted or there isn't and they end up dependent on the meta game and shit talking to keep people playing.

is 300k = Fail?

[HaemishM]

Either there is end game advancement and they get more than the 300k I predicted or there isn't and they end up dependent on the meta game and shit talking to keep people playing.

is 300k = Fail?

For Mythic? Probably not.
For EA and Games Workshop? Probably so.

[Kirth]

I apologize, 24 man raids, not 40.  Same difference though, the scrubs won't be there the hardcore will and a gear differential will occur.

I disagree, but it remains to be seen I spose.

I'll qualify disagree, I think that king raids are not going to be as super exclusive as say Kil'Jaden is currently. Also I think the gear available from king raids is not going to be as power increasing as say Kil'Jaden loot (and I have first hand experience with how much difference the sword from kil'jaden, for example, makes in pvp.)

[cevik]

is 300k = Fail?

Is 300k = "fail to meet expectations"?

I guess you'll have to go look at the old predictions thread and judge that for yourself.

[Fraeg]

Wait.  No one has asked about the leveling curve:  is WAR on par with current WoW?  I can hit a new level or more under 60 in an hour in WoW these days if I want.  And I do want that.


What is the pre-endgame WAR grind like?

Depends, the ranks come pretty quickly. Renown does'nt keep on par with normal leveling however.

 it is very easy to hit 20 within a week or two of consistant but non-catass gaming.  for lvling past lvl 30 it is still pretty easy.   As others have mentioned this is a pretty alt friendly game.  You get xp for jsut about everything you can think of and it adds up whether you are pvping or pveing, questing whatever.  But as others have pointed out the Realm rank advancement is definately slower

haven't tinkered with em too much other than solo exploring but there are what appear to be "raid" dungeons.. forget the names but they are clearly set up for raids.  Dunno what the target party size is.

[Khaldun]

I'm with Cevik on this one.

Go forward in time about six months. Let's assume that gear differentials have a relatively minimal role in determining PvP outcomes and somehow, luckily, serious faction imbalances haven't crippled RvR altogether and that Mythic has been jonny-on-the-spot with fixing exploits and serious class imbalances. All necessary conditions for RvR to be "healthy" in six months.

Ok, so now what? What's going to keep people retained in the game? Nothing will really ever change about the world itself permanently. So maybe your faction stays dominant day after day due to the heroically skilled work of a coordinated network of guilds and the other faction doesn't get discouraged and quit. Still, the world itself isn't really going to change because of it in any meaningfully permanent way. No real achievement or pride from that. So what will make the game sticky? What innovation or newness does Mythic add?

They can't add major new lengthy PvE raid-type content if they want to keep the gear differential minimal, because it's largely gear that makes the time investment of a raid worth doing. There's an upper-bound of the number of public quests they can introduce before there are just too many out there, all the same. I've already noticed that some of the later ones are pretty much bypassed by most players, even when they're kind of interesting in narrative terms. You can't make any new PvE content a draw through gear, in fact. So far I don't see any sign that Mythic has any clue about how to make that content a draw through innovative quest design itself.

So, what else? New RvR instances or public areas? What's going to make those more shiny and exciting than the ones they already have? If it's ranks, items, etc., uh-oh, heading back towards poopsockery, unless those have zero consequences for the players who do them, at which point they'll feel pointless and annoying. If it's just novelty, well grats, that will last for about two or three sessions and then people will have no motivation to do the new areas any longer.

You gotta think ahead here about this stuff. Given the basic design architecture of a diku-style MMOG, there is almost nowhere to go BUT to start adding mechanisms that differentiate players in power within the gameworld based on the time they play or on the social groups that they play with. You can correct for that or push back on it later, as Blizzard's done over the lifetime of WoW. You could graph WoW in terms of periods of enormous differentation between hardcore and casual and less differentiation and by now it would be a very regular oscillation, which I think is by design. (I think right around Naxxramas going live the Blizz devs realized they were in danger of going over the edge towards EQ paradigm).

If you say no no Warhammer will have none such! Mythic is too smart! They know what they're doing even though they didn't used to know what they were doing and fucked up DAOC! then tell me what happens in six months when the shiny is off and people need a reason to log-in and they are getting IMs from their old guildies who are back in Wrath of the Lich King. If I were you, I'd put some money down on "Mythic introduces a new tier of items obtained through poopsockery of some degree or another".

[Baldrake]

Oh please, are our memories so short?

In UO, people were willing to go to extraordinary lengths to get a new glowy stick whose only purpose was to show off at the brit bank.

There are no end of things you can add as goals to the game that do not involve better fighting gear. Player housing. Better player houses. Stuff to put in your house. Teleport thingies that let you get to said house. Shiny mounts that look different from other peoples. Fancy-looking armour and clothes. Cool hair style. Yes, these games are about achievement. No, said achievement doesn't always have to be about getting +1 chr on your codpiece.

[Oz]

they didn't used to know what they were doing and fucked up DAOC!

The only major thing i can think of that they did to fuck up DAoC was to add poopsockery via ToA...
Unless you're refering to something else they did, which i'm not recalling at the moment.

[Draegan]

Well the one thing I think that will motivate the PVP people is:

http://realmwar.warhammeronline.com/realmwar/Index.war

I believe it will be a scoreboard for servers.  That motivates people sometimes if the gear disparity is kept to a minimum.  I know it did in a lot of PVP muds I used to play.

Also, every dungeon at rank 40 is a single group.

Article on WAR PVE

Edit to add:
PVE gear is not the best for PVP due to lack of resistances.  PVP gear is bought based on your PVP level, which is leveled by PVPing.  There is no arena grind or anything.  Everyone, given time, can get to RR70 and buy gear.  The different gear comes from King raiding and other stuff.

[Ingmar]

If it is like DAOC the advancement will come via realm points, not gear. DAOC didn't break down and indulge in gear mudflation until TOA, and the existence of 'classic' non-TOA servers indicates that Mythic understands what a colossal fuckup TOA was.

I suspect Kild is right about this one.

Either there is end game advancement and they get more than the 300k I predicted or there isn't and they end up dependent on the meta game and shit talking to keep people playing.

Besides, Realm Points or ubar Gear doesn't make a difference, mudflation doesn't have to be through gear, it's just something that gives the more "hardcore" player an advantage over the lesser player.  If that's through accruing realm points and getting the l33t skills or raiding and getting gear it doesn't make that much of a difference.

There's a significant difference, though, in that in a RVR/Realm Points model, your advancement comes from actually doing the thing you want to be doing in the first place. You're PVPing to get better at PVPing and to participate in whatever realm war type stuff is going on. That does wonders for keeping people involved. The other part of the puzzle is making sure that those improvements are incremental enough to not sour your casuals. I don't know if it is safe to say that the DAOC model was incremental enough, just because the issues caused by 1) relics being a huge statistical effect, 2) population imbalance and 3) class balance problems reduced a lot of the RA type effects to statistical noise, other than the ongoing battle over the class-specific RR5 abilities (hey, there's class balance) and the issues surrounding crowd control and anti-crowd control RAs and who did and did not have access to them. (hey there's class balance again)

[Dren]

Oh please, are our memories so short?

In UO, people were willing to go to extraordinary lengths to get a new glowy stick whose only purpose was to show off at the brit bank.

There are no end of things you can add as goals to the game that do not involve better fighting gear. Player housing. Better player houses. Stuff to put in your house. Teleport thingies that let you get to said house. Shiny mounts that look different from other peoples. Fancy-looking armour and clothes. Cool hair style. Yes, these games are about achievement. No, said achievement doesn't always have to be about getting +1 chr on your codpiece.

Fluff has always been good at making the existing sub base happy and content while they continue to enjoy the base game.  I do not expect fluff to out weigh the base game though.  If somebody finds your game unpleasant, no amount of player housing will keep them around, not on a macro scale.

If I'm dieing just as much this month as I was last month, I'm not going to be sedated by the promise of a glow stick that allows me to be killed just as easily.  Just now I'll die with FLAIR!

[cevik]

There's a significant difference, though, in that in a RVR/Realm Points model, your advancement comes from actually doing the thing you want to be doing in the first place.

Out of mild curiosity, when was the last time you played WoW?

I apologize if you know all this, but your statement leads me to believe you do not.  There are two types of gear in WoW now, stuff you get from PvPing and stuff you get from PvEing.  The stuff you get from PvPing is heavy in resilience and penetration, two stats that do nothing in PvE but help significantly in PvP.  The gear you get from PvE has no resilience (which you need to be good at PvP) and usually has stuff like +hit, which is fairly worthless in PvP (the cap in PvP is much lower than the cap in PvE).

So, your gear advancement in WoW comes from doing the thing that you use the gear for.  If you like PvP you can do nothing but PvP and get gear advancement that will help you in PvP much more than anything you can get in PvE.  If you like PvE you can do nothing but PvE and get gear that helps much more in PvE than anything you'll get from PvP.  

[Dren]

they didn't used to know what they were doing and fucked up DAOC!

The only major thing i can think of that they did to fuck up DAoC was to add poopsockery via ToA...
Unless you're refering to something else they did, which i'm not recalling at the moment.

I think that is his point.  They felt they needed to add something to the game to retain and attact players, so they added poopsockery.  

I keep seeing people say DAoC was a success, but it really was a niche success.  I'm guessing they are wanting WAR to be something more than niche.  No?

[Slayerik]

Thinking about it, sounds kind of like just a huge WoW "Warlord" grind to me.

I like PVP in my games. I like interaction in my games. I like resentment towards my enemies in PVP games. If my opponents turn into just 5 heads to return to dickface quest dude, I don't see the grab I am looking for.

I miss shit like in Neocron when you heard X guild was attacking your outpost. "X Guild? I hate those fuckers....fucking german pricks. Get on vent fuckers, it's ON!" ... same type of shit in UO... "SSJ in Deceit? Fuck those guys!!!" then the sound of a ton of ICQ messages.

Instead, hey look it's another bright Wizard. 5 more and I'll have enough renown for a slightly better axe. WOOT

I think I'm just not cut out for anything Diku-esque.

Disclaimer: I don't even know what renown is really. Sounds like something I have to grind.

[Ingmar]

they didn't used to know what they were doing and fucked up DAOC!

The only major thing i can think of that they did to fuck up DAoC was to add poopsockery via ToA...
Unless you're refering to something else they did, which i'm not recalling at the moment.

I think that is his point.  They felt they needed to add something to the game to retain and attact players, so they added poopsockery.  

I keep seeing people say DAoC was a success, but it really was a niche success.  I'm guessing they are wanting WAR to be something more than niche.  No?

We do have ample evidence that Mythic understands what a colossal fuckup TOA was. It took them a long time to cop to it, but the very existence of classic servers (and the strong evidence that players preferred that server type once it was available) should have told them everything they need to know about PVE-to-PVP.