WAR to be released...

[Numtini]

I have been pretty unimpressed by War, great game in every aspect except I don't find it fun to play. But other people have a different opinion and I believe it will do really well. AOC's real message was that people are ready for a change. Provided the servers don't crash during open beta, I think War will probably beat AOC's sales and first two month numbers. I think WOTLK is going to crush it though and if I were Goddess of EA, I would have delayed it until spring.

Between the two, AOC is going to be a ghost town.

[Slayerik]

But is it really a change? I keep hearing WoW with better RvR and worse PvE. Can the PvP game retain for long?

I think sales could be a bit lower due to being burned by AOC. More people taking a wait and see approach (hell I am, and I never do).

A lot of people were brought into AoC by word of mouth, after a successful and fun first month. Then the game just shits out. Does WAR do enough were you are going to get your buddies to play? Hell, I'm gun shy telling anyone to buy an MMO after AoC.

[tazelbain]

Only thing wrong with PvE is the missing skill queue.  Its absence needless bogs down PvE and makes frantic PvP extra frustrating.  It is wonder how any modern  MMO can even be contemplating this.  My only hope is this something they are leaving to the ui mods.

[cevik]

I think sales could be a bit lower due to being burned by AOC.
...
A lot of people were brought into AoC by word of mouth, after a successful and fun first month. Then the game just shits out. Does WAR do enough were you are going to get your buddies to play? Hell, I'm gun shy telling anyone to buy an MMO after AoC.

These are the two things I based my highly uneducated guess on above.  1)  AoC made a lot of people feel burned, and WotLK is now just around the corner.  I'm not sure that this is the best time to release a game that's pretty much like WoW with worse PvE and better graphics (but much worse animation) and a much less polished overall experience.  If you are looking for people with WoW burnout I think PvE would be the main draw.  2)  The word of mouth I'm hearing has been mostly a collective "meh".  I have heard 5 different and unrelated people give me that one word as their overall review of WAR.  It's not that it's bad, it's just not that it's inspiring enough to be worthwhile to level up when WotLK is coming.  Are you really going to grind a character to level 40 in WAR then immediately dump it for WotLK?

At least with AoC you had an entirely different combat system to play with.  There were lots of "you gotta try AoC just so you can see the combat" type reviews.  The best reviews I've seen of WAR have been of the "it's like WoW with a little less polish and similar PvE but just totally awesome kickass pvp!11!!"  While I didn't have the same kickass pvp experience (mostly because my gaming group is skipping WAR and thus I didn't have a group to play with), I just can't imagine it being enough to draw in the masses.  Hell even the most postive posts around here are calling the PvE "not that bad" or saying essentially "just skip the PvE and level up via PvP".

I expect to be wrong though, that's the nice thing about being me, consistently wrong is at least consistent.

[Khaldun]

Blizzard, by the way, is showing not only that they're still the designers to beat, but that they've got some smart marketing people who play the long game. The "invite a friend" promotion adds some extra stickiness right now, and the timing on Wrath of the Lich King puts extra pressure on any competitors.

Age of Conan proved that WoW players would like to go somewhere else, do something else, that they're bored, but Age of Conan also showed all those bored players that being bored in a well-run, tried-and-true MMOG is way preferable to being shat on by a fumble-fingered live management team while trying to play a Potemkin Village game that hides its buggy and incomplete reality behind a shiny initial experience. I'm guessing that if Blizzard had really, really wanted to, they could have had Wrath ready six months ago, but I think they knew very well what Age of Conan was going to be and that it actually benefitted them to have people briefly stray from the plantation to remind them of what WoW offers.

So now the same thing: I'm thinking that they're holding their fire on purpose to let people play Warhammer, see what doesn't work (and I really suspect that there are going to be quite a few issues with RvR about one or two months in, once the shiny wears off) and THEN you publish Wrath to pull back everyone who isn't strongly devoted to Warhammer (which will probably be quite a few of the initial box sales people). By the time Wrath players get bored again, I'm guessing Age of Conan will be a little sub-100k squib of a game and Warhammer will be holding around or just above LOTRO numbers, maybe 200-300k, and there won't be much drift back out of Wrath to those alternatives. A dumber marketing team might get agitated by the evidence that the WoW playerbase wants an alternative and be more aggressive, but the Blizzard folks seem to know exactly how long to keep their powder dry.

[AcidCat]

* words *

I expect to be wrong though, that's the nice thing about being me, consistently wrong is at least consistent.

Of course we could both be wrong, but I agree 100% with everything you said.

If Lich King wasn't releasing just a month or two after, I might be tempted to play for a while just for something different. But knowing I'd be putting in time just to dump it for Lich King shortly after is just another nail in WAR's coffin for me.

[Merusk]

Blizz still hasn't hinted at LK's release date though, have they?  I haven't been following as closely as I once did, and the November idea is - once again - fans guessing that Blizz will do it at the 4 year mark.  I'm still expecting it to be January or February of 09 from what I'm reading on the 2-3 class beta boards I check every few days.  The Devs haven't even begun their balance passes.  Hunters are getting their "major update" next patch, and then Rogues and I think Priests.

Given Blizz's pace, I think LK's still a ways off.

[Khaldun]

I'm guessing that Blizz could accelerate the current WotLK schedule if they felt like it--I think they're keeping it loose so they can decide just when to drop the hammer on Warhammer for maximum permanent impact on their retention rates. It's like watching a long-distance race where the strongest runner is holding back a little on purpose to let the others make their moves too early. You sprint ahead when you think you can sustain it, but also when you think it will inflict maximum demoralization on your opponents.

[amiable]

I don't know, I think there is a real hunger amongst a sizable number of players for a game that goes out of its way not include a raid poopsock endgame.  No matter what wonderful changes are coming to WoW in WOTLK the fact of the matter will be that the highest tier of the game will cater to high-end raiders.  They may add more fluff, but I don't think it is possible to get away from that core mechanic.  Despite any flaws, WAR offers an endgame that is focused squarely on RvR.  I'm not saying it will hit WoW numbers, but I don't think WOTLK is going to have as great a "sucking" effect as some people are positing.

[cevik]

I don't know, I think there is a real hunger amongst a sizable number of players for a game that goes out of its way not include a raid poopsock endgame.  

I agree, I think there is a group of people out there looking to avoid high end raiding at all costs and want a full on pvp endgame and still want to play MMOGS.  My personal guess is there is about 300k of them.  And about 200k or those will like what they see when they get the box.

[Khaldun]

And you don't think there's going to be some kind of poopsock element to RvR in Warhammer? First, I guarantee that players are going to find ways to magnify advantages, class and level and item-based, and that the more focused people get on achieving objectives, the more that will appear as a differentiation between the players who've grinded or studied the theory and those who haven't. Second, sooner or later unless Mythic's live management has an iron will and incredibly clear design objectives, they're going to start sticking in more and more of those kinds of elements to motivate players to keep playing. Because if RvR is always the same, and everyone's more or less the same within it, people are going to get bored eventually. I love me some Team Fortress 2, but it gets old eventually, and if I had to pay a monthly fee to do it, I'd stop and go looking for the next multiplayer shooter. A MMOG has to have persistence over time, and therefore things have to change, accumulate, differentiate. The more that happens, the more differentiation and advantage drive the gameplay. The more that's true, the more poopsocking inevitably takes hold.

[Numtini]

Well I was using the release date on retailers sites. We're not quite there, but we're starting to get close to when those would have to be considered somewhat firm--I imagine you don't ship a few million units without advanced notice. (Anyone industry insiders interested in finking on what the timelines are like?)

[amiable]

And you don't think there's going to be some kind of poopsock element to RvR in Warhammer?

PvP poopsock is not PvE poopsock.  The fundamental difference is participation.  Even a scrub can participate in the war effort and get involved with world PvP, participate in a castle siege, etc...  with minimal effort.  Sure he may die, a lot, but he will not have to farm for 5 hours and schedule a 4 hour raiding block several times a week to participate.

[Khaldun]

Sure, but that's pretty descriptive of PvP in World of Warcraft, too, except for Arenas.

[kildorn]

Not really. In WoW if you're not in epics, you're probably going to get flat out rolled in pvp. Especially if you lack any pvp epics.

WAR has a much lower top tier of gear, same with DAOC. Got your SC'd/Crafted 99% set? Go nuts, you're on near stat parity with everyone else.

[cevik]

And you don't think there's going to be some kind of poopsock element to RvR in Warhammer?

PvP poopsock is not PvE poopsock.  The fundamental difference is participation.  Even a scrub can participate in the war effort and get involved with world PvP, participate in a castle siege, etc...  with minimal effort.  Sure he may die, a lot, but he will not have to farm for 5 hours and schedule a 4 hour raiding block several times a week to participate.

But Blizzard has consistently lowered the bar for PvE in WoW, to the point now where nearly everyone participates in at least 10 man raiding, and they are going to lower the bar yet again in the expansion.  This complaint sounds like sour grapes and confusing PvE from EQ with PvE from modern WoW, two totally different beasts.  I agree that there are some die hard anti-PvE people out there that simply will not even try WoW PvE because all PvE suxxorz all the time (see: schild) but that is a very small minority of the current WoW playerbase.

I suspect that any scrub can log on and participate in WoW PvE with a much higher degree of success than any scrub being able to log in to a WAR server and participate in PvP.  And as time goes on, the barrier for entry into WAR's PvP will likely grow, as people min/max and form "hardc0re" pvp guilds, whereas the barrier for entry into WoW raiding has consistently been lowered with every patch.

[Khaldun]

Poopsocking is hardwired into the form at this point. It's an inevitable consequence of vesting the effects of persistence largely in individual characters (rather than in a deformable, changeable, dynamically evolving gameworld). Some characters will accumulate and differentiate more and then will associate socially with those who have accumulated more and differentiated more. Given the fact that MMOGs mostly don't use twitch to determine outcomes, even a 2% stat differential if you concentrate it in a guild or group will lead to a visible difference in outcomes in PvP, because it's not about reflexes or even, generally, smarter gameplay. The evolution of World of Warcraft has been away from extremely strong hierarchical distance between hardcore players and casual ones, but some distinction will remain even if they want to get rid of it, and the same will be true for Warhammer. 

[murdoc]

I agree, I think there is a group of people out there looking to avoid high end raiding at all costs and want a full on pvp endgame and still want to play MMOGS.  My personal guess is there is about 300k of them.  And about 200k or those will like what they see when they get the box.

This is me for sure. Hence, me staying out of 'impressions' threads because what I played of WAR, I really enjoyed and am glad I've pre-ordered it and definitely have a fan-boi leaning.

[Numtini]

Not really. In WoW if you're not in epics, you're probably going to get flat out rolled in pvp. Especially if you lack any pvp epics.

Correct about WOW. That's one of the reasons I was so glad to see War move more towards open field rather than sport pvp. Open field RVR is far kinder to those of us with less skill and time. You may get rolled over, but usually in the chaos you can do something useful even if you aren't uber because you are in addition to the uber rather than instead of the uber.

[cevik]

The evolution of World of Warcraft has been away from extremely strong hierarchical distance between hardcore players and casual ones, but some distinction will remain even if they want to get rid of it, and the same will be true for Warhammer. 

The point being that Blizzard is taking a design approach to minimize the hardcore elements of their game with every iteration, something that is rare (if ever done before in MMOG history).  Most other people have always seemed to think that the hardc0re are the "cool guys" that should be catered to because you want to be considered really awesome on the FOH website, or something.  Only time will tell if Mythic will take the same approach as Blizzard, but being that their game seems to be entirely derivative in nature, I'm curious if they know what they are copying or are only copying.  In the past Mythic has made some serious mistakes in this regard, create a derivative game only "with moar pvp!" and then not really known what to do with it once it went live.  Perhaps they've learned.

[Vinadil]

Not really. In WoW if you're not in epics, you're probably going to get flat out rolled in pvp. Especially if you lack any pvp epics.

Correct about WOW. That's one of the reasons I was so glad to see War move more towards open field rather than sport pvp. Open field RVR is far kinder to those of us with less skill and time. You may get rolled over, but usually in the chaos you can do something useful even if you aren't uber because you are in addition to the uber rather than instead of the uber.

It has EVE-esque elements in this way because it allows noobs/unskilled/ungeared players to still have an impact.  Even if you bring your under-geared, under-levelled priest onto the field he will be healing for SOMETHING, and it STACKS with all the others, so he IS a benefit.  This is not a 5v5, so you don't get told "eh, no thanks you don't get to come" because we can just bring a 6th... or a 16th.  Allowing just about everything from every class to stack really helps open the field for new people to get "involved".  I compare it to EVE because that game has shown that even in a game "dominated" by the old-guard, new players can have an important role to play.  The catch is that new players have to be willing to play certain roles, and they will be limited by gear/levels/skill etc.  But, I don't know of many games where that is not true...

[Slyfeind]

Not really. In WoW if you're not in epics, you're probably going to get flat out rolled in pvp. Especially if you lack any pvp epics.

WAR has a much lower top tier of gear, same with DAOC. Got your SC'd/Crafted 99% set? Go nuts, you're on near stat parity with everyone else.

Can a 1st level character contribute meaningfully (or at least have a good time) with maxed-out characters?

[Kirth]

The point being that Blizzard is taking a design approach to minimize the hardcore elements of their game with every iteration,

Wait tell the key requirements for northrend are released...

also, and I know its been changed to remove these gates, but this was still after vanilla raids that were gated by "do a quest, run UBRS (ONY/BWL) or depending on faction an quantity of gold/farmable mats(naxx)" except AQ witch was a server wide effort after witch it was open to all:

[schild]

The idea of Raid attunement buggers my ass in a way that nothing has since having to get flags in Tele-Arena. It's a dumb idea and makes me think even LESS of WoW. Ever since hearing about it, I just can't rationalize anyone putting that sort of shit into a game.

[Dren]

Not really. In WoW if you're not in epics, you're probably going to get flat out rolled in pvp. Especially if you lack any pvp epics.

WAR has a much lower top tier of gear, same with DAOC. Got your SC'd/Crafted 99% set? Go nuts, you're on near stat parity with everyone else.

From what I'm reading, this doesn't make sense to me.  If we are comparing WoW BG's to WAR (as I understand,) I'm seeing this:

- WoW - under geared people are the chafe. They continue to get marks and honor so they can some day be geared or over geared.
- WAR - lower level / lower geared people are the chafe.  They continue to get *something* to raise higher to someday be the "generals" and "captains"

I'm only going off of what I'm reading here, so I might be misunderstanding though.  My point is that Bg's in Wow ARE open field PvP (you don't get invited, you just go!)  You do it, do it, do it, and eventually get better (skill's) and better geared (through marks and honor.)

Am I missing something here?

*Edit:  spell checker got me on Bg's.
*Edit2: why isn't PvP in the spell checker?

[Dren]

Yes, WoW is evil for attunements.

1.  They don't have them anymore.
2.  They have stated they won't have them anymore.  (We'll see.)

[cevik]

Yes, WoW is evil for attunements.

1.  They don't have them anymore.
2.  They have stated they won't have them anymore.  (We'll see.)

Again, each iteration becomes more accessible than the last.

Anyone who's progressed from breaking into the plane of hate in EQ to a Kara raid in WoW sees that things have drastically changed over the years.  Claiming that only the hardcore can PvE in WoW is just silly.

[kildorn]

Not really. In WoW if you're not in epics, you're probably going to get flat out rolled in pvp. Especially if you lack any pvp epics.

WAR has a much lower top tier of gear, same with DAOC. Got your SC'd/Crafted 99% set? Go nuts, you're on near stat parity with everyone else.

Can a 1st level character contribute meaningfully (or at least have a good time) with maxed-out characters?

No? It's level based, not gear based would be the difference. Lacking an SK system ala CoH is criminal in a modern MMO though.

A level 50 is a level 50 is a level 50 in daoc terms for pvp. Stat caps and effective top end gear are useful. Artifacts fucked with that a bit, but in general the WoW problem is a lack of stat caps and an increasing level of gear above your basic dungeon blues at 70. Kara geared beats blue geared, BT geared beats kara geared, etc. Essentially there's another leveling system next to the actual levels. WAR lacks that. It just has the one leveling system, and beyond that pvp gear and pve gear aren't horribly different, nor is there a huge endgame grind to get either.

[Kirth]

Yes, WoW is evil for attunements.

1.  They don't have them anymore.
2.  They have stated they won't have them anymore.  (We'll see.)

1. Because 2 years out they make no sense, plus scrubs can't kill KT.
2. I'll believe it when I see it, they will gate the content somehow if its not personal keys or flags it will be something otherwise Arthas will be dead and forgoten weeks after WotLK launches.

My point is that Bag's in Wow ARE open field PCP

Does'nt everyone want bags of open field pcp?

[kildorn]

Not really. In WoW if you're not in epics, you're probably going to get flat out rolled in pvp. Especially if you lack any pvp epics.

WAR has a much lower top tier of gear, same with DAOC. Got your SC'd/Crafted 99% set? Go nuts, you're on near stat parity with everyone else.

From what I'm reading, this doesn't make sense to me.  If we are comparing WoW BG's to WAR (as I understand,) I'm seeing this:

- WoW - under geared people are the chafe. They continue to get marks and honor so they can some day be geared or over geared.
- WAR - lower level / lower geared people are the chafe.  They continue to get *something* to raise higher to someday be the "generals" and "captains"

I'm only going off of what I'm reading here, so I might be misunderstanding though.  My point is that Bg's in Wow ARE open field PvP (you don't get invited, you just go!)  You do it, do it, do it, and eventually get better (skill's) and better geared (through marks and honor.)

Am I missing something here?

*Edit:  spell checker got me on Bg's.
*Edit2: why isn't PvP in the spell checker?

Think if WOW's gear topped out at dungeon blues. You could get them via dungeons or from marks from pvp. No epics.

That's the difference. There is no post level cap grind for phat loot that opens up more phat loot. It doesn't exist. The shit you got when leveling to the cap is the shit you use at the cap.

[Draegan]

The idea of Raid attunement buggers my ass in a way that nothing has since having to get flags runes in Tele-Arena. It's a dumb idea and makes me think even LESS of WoW. Ever since hearing about it, I just can't rationalize anyone putting that sort of shit into a game.

FIFY

C'mon, killing the stygian dragon to get your yellow run was win, especially when there was only one per day and you had to wake up in the morning to get it.

[schild]

The idea of Raid attunement buggers my ass in a way that nothing has since having to get flags runes in Tele-Arena. It's a dumb idea and makes me think even LESS of WoW. Ever since hearing about it, I just can't rationalize anyone putting that sort of shit into a game.

FIFY

C'mon, killing the stygian dragon to get your yellow run was win, especially when there was only one per day and you had to wake up in the morning to get it.

Yea, but eventually you got your turn. Getting the crystal shortsword as my rogue in MajorMud the day that expansion came out, might've been the best moment in my gaming career. There was, after all, only one - PERIOD.

I still want to run a majormud on the f13 server.

[Draegan]

Yes, WoW is evil for attunements.

1.  They don't have them anymore.
2.  They have stated they won't have them anymore.  (We'll see.)

1. Because 2 years out they make no sense, plus scrubs can't kill KT.
2. I'll believe it when I see it, they will gate the content somehow if its not personal keys or flags it will be something otherwise Arthas will be dead and forgoten weeks after WotLK launches.

They were toying with the idea of having SOMEONE on the server clearing the 25 man version to unlock the 10 man side.  Or some shit like that.

@Schild
I never played MajorMUD to any longevity since by the time I finished Tele-Arena and started MajorMUD, I discovered SojournMUD, right before their first wipe.  Aaaaah memories.

@Everyone else:

WAR PVP is different because the enemies you kill in scenarios and open world drop money and items.  You can farm people for good drops.  (Not their gear, but random loot.)

There will be no poopsocking, at least at release, sense you can get to the top of the heap solo Renown and Rank, also some top gear can just be bought when you take over a keep.

[Simond]

That's the difference. There is no post level cap grind for phat loot that opens up more phat loot. It doesn't exist. The shit you got when leveling to the cap is the shit you use at the cap.

Of course, no carrot means people get bored quicker.... 
And besides, WAR does have poopsock PvE - they just need to be unlocked by poopsock PvP first.

[Kirth]

Claiming that only the hardcore can PvE in WoW is just silly.

Given that the most accessiable raid (Karahzan) takes aprox. 4 hours front to back if your execuation is perfect, thats excatly what I'm claiming.