Dragon Age

[MrHat]

There is something about Landsmeet that makes me think "welp, time to reroll or play something else". 

I had to turn down the difficulty as none of my team could one on one Loghain.

[schild]

There is something about Landsmeet that makes me think "welp, time to reroll or play something else".  

I had to turn down the difficulty as none of my team could one on one Loghain.

I'm not gonna say he never got a hit on me... but...

He never got a hit on me.

...Twice, so I could get an achievement.

[tmp]

And at least it wasn't another Tower of Hanoi or Bucket Puzzle.

Tower of Hanoi is dead and buried, literally. There's a tombstone for it in DA with "unloved, unmourned" as epitaph...

[Merusk]

Unloved? Pft, Tower of Hanoi is one of my all time favorite puzzles.  The only real problem with it is once you know the solution pattern, that's it.  Still, I loved figuring it out when I was a youngin'.

[Raguel]

There is something about Landsmeet that makes me think "welp, time to reroll or play something else". 

I had to turn down the difficulty as none of my team could one on one Loghain.

It's not so much the fight, as much as: (1) sometimes a brotha just wants to kill darkspawn (2) Loghain, while a raging a-hole, isn't necessarily evil, and even his most egregious action can be defended.  He still doesn't care about elves, but then neither do I. 

[gryeyes]

The entire Loghain plot would have been so much better if he wasn't a blatant bad guy from almost the instant you meet him. Show the kings death but not the betrayal. Don't make every cutscene involving Loghain clearly demonstrate he is a complete power hungry cunt. Him being such an asshole completely overshadows the moral ambiguity the game tries to project. How much more interesting would it have been if Loghain was remorseful about the act but believed in his reasons and was generally nice to his family/friends. Instead of Lord Cunt, with some backstory that really does not change ones opinion of him.

[schild]

Loghain didn't even have to talk to be identified as the bad guy. The character designer for him needs to be taken out back. Ugh.

[stray]

Loghain didn't even have to talk to be identified as the bad guy. The character designer for him needs to be taken out back. Ugh.

That's the case for a lot of the characters. I suppose it's an easy way to associate sinister from heroic, although it's a cheap way of doing it. Look at Howe too. Fucking weasel if there ever was one. Fuck off with your marriage propositions, Howe! I know you're up to no good right from the start.

[schild]

No doubt.

Also, whoever wrote the would-be queen has had some baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad experiences with women. Either that or hasn't had any and has terrible taste in tv and literature.

[gryeyes]

The contrast between Loghain and the King is hilarious. Loghain should have had an eye patch with a skull and crossbones to complete the effect.


Edit: Naturally Tim Curry should have been the voice for the "bad guy". Someone should be flogged for that decision also.

[stray]

Although to be fair, how Loghaine was written in the end was good. Sure he's an ugly, mean looking bastard, but I don't think he was power hungry. Basically, he's just a "Get the fuck off my lawn" geezer war hero. You can't really blame him since he was around Cailin all the time, who, in Loghaine's words, was just a dumb kid playing "war games" and out for glory with the Grey Wardens. Cailin also wanted Orlesians to help, which added more insult to the mix. Loghaine built his name on kicking Orlesians out.

He merely gave Cailin what he wanted. He let him have fun and glory with just the Grey Wardens. Although it's a fucked up thing to do, since he knew it would fail. His villainy is not protecting Cailin from his own stupidity.

After you beat Loghaine (after I did at least), his faith in the new generation is restored.. You prove that you're just as badass as good ole King Maric, and Loghaine's happy relinquishing responsibility, and even his life into your hands. He just thought no one was up to the task except himself.

[schild]

Although to be fair, how Loghaine was written in the end was good. Sure he's an ugly, mean looking bastard, but I don't think he was power hungry. Basically, he's just a "Get the fuck off my lawn" geezer war hero. You can't really blame him since he was around Cailin all the time, who, in Loghaine's words, was just a dumb kid playing "war games" and out for glory with the Grey Wardens. Cailin also wanted Orlesians to help, which added more insult to the mix. Loghaine built his name on kicking Orlesians out.

He merely gave Cailin what he wanted. He let him have fun and glory with just the Grey Wardens. Although it's a fucked up thing to do, since he knew it would fail. His villainy is not protecting Cailin from his own stupidity.

After you beat Loghaine (after I did at least), his faith in the new generation is restored.. You prove that you're just as badass as good ole King Maric, and Loghaine's happy relinquishing responsibility, and even his life into your hands. He just thought no one was up to the task except himself.

Grats on buying that hamfisted line of crap.

[stray]

Heh.. That's how it plays out. Umm, through my playthrough at least.

I still cut off his head anyways.

[edit]

[gryeyes]

He merely gave Cailin what he wanted. He let him have fun and glory with just the Grey Wardens. Although it's a fucked up thing to do, since he knew it would fail. His villainy is not protecting Cailin from his own stupidity.

Well thats one way to describe withholding your troops from the agreed strategy insuring everyone else gets slaughtered. But he then declares Warders (honorable slayers of monsters) are outcast and demands their death. Blames the entire murder on them! His villainy is a bit more than not looking out for the royal retard. He murders his King (and his troops),demands the death of innocents and then usurps control of the nation. He is also a dickface to everyone and looks like a grizzled pirate. About as cliche bad buy as one can get.

He is the most unsympathetic douchebag ever.

[stray]

Damn yeah, you're right. I have selective memory.

As for the designs, unfortunately games rely on that a lot, I think. It's more rare to see a villain you didn't see coming. I kept on thinking Leliana was going to pull some rotten shit on me, but never did. That would have been rich.

[sidereal]

Loghain didn't even have to talk to be identified as the bad guy. The character designer for him needs to be taken out back. Ugh.

Was it the eyeshadow?

[Raguel]

He merely gave Cailin what he wanted. He let him have fun and glory with just the Grey Wardens. Although it's a fucked up thing to do, since he knew it would fail. His villainy is not protecting Cailin from his own stupidity.

Well thats one way to describe withholding your troops from the agreed strategy insuring everyone else gets slaughtered. But he then declares Warders (honorable slayers of monsters) are outcast and demands their death. Blames the entire murder on them! His villainy is a bit more than not looking out for the royal retard. He murders his King (and his troops),demands the death of innocents and then usurps control of the nation. He is also a dickface to everyone and looks like a grizzled pirate. About as cliche bad buy as one can get.

He is the most unsympathetic douchebag ever.

Here's the thing though: we have no idea how large the darkspawn army was. We're led to believe that Loghain intentionally held back his troops in order to get rid of the king and the Grey Wardens, but we have no way of knowing if attacking meant he wasn't just throwing away lives, and they actually had a chance of winning. (Of course, now that I think aobut it, he didn't believe this was a true Blight. Let's ignore that and move on, shall we?  )

During my first playthrough, I assumed that he was colluding with the darkspawn for some reason (I thought that was the reason why the darkspawn got access to the tower) but that never came up.

edit: grammar isn't my strong suit. :

[tmp]

The entire Loghain plot would have been so much better if he wasn't a blatant bad guy from almost the instant you meet him. Show the kings death but not the betrayal. Don't make every cutscene involving Loghain clearly demonstrate he is a complete power hungry cunt. Him being such an asshole completely overshadows the moral ambiguity the game tries to project. How much more interesting would it have been if Loghain was remorseful about the act but believed in his reasons and was generally nice to his family/friends. Instead of Lord Cunt, with some backstory that really does not change ones opinion of him.

Well, if i understand it right  I'm guessing the "people can be complete cunts while doing what they believe is for greater good" they have going with him *is* supposed to be the moral ambiguity here.

[caladein]

I think in a game that achieves moral ambiguity via a dearth of good choices has use for cliché villains.  Nameless Dragon (from Beowulf) leads horde of Uruk-hai (from Tolkien) while you fight against Mustache Twirling Villain (from lots-of-places) while looking for revenge for *insert betrayal in origin story here*.

That's not to say I like obvious villains, in the abstract I don't.  (Or the simple version of moral ambiguity they went for.)  But having to make a series of rather awful choices without some big bad providing justification for it all just leaves the PC as anti-hero douchebag out for revenge.

You can play that way already and where you have agency there are some interesting choices to make.

[stray]

The Dwarf kings were a good example of "villainy" done right. The way Bhelen is portrayed at first is brutal, but there's a downside to the older, passive guy and what he represents.

[gryeyes]

Well, if i understand it right  I'm guessing the "people can be complete cunts while doing what they believe is for greater good" they have going with him *is* supposed to be the moral ambiguity here.

Of course someone can be an evil cunt and still be sympathetic (or at least believable). Sadly this is not the case, the entire game reinforces the fact Loghain is a vindictive power hungry douche bag. We never see him as anything else, he is as morally ambiguous as the archdaemon.

[tmp]

Of course someone can be an evil cunt and still be sympathetic (or at least believable). Sadly this is not the case, the entire game reinforces the fact Loghain is a vindictive power hungry douche bag. We never see him as anything else, he is as morally ambiguous as the archdaemon.

I don't think it's quite as simple. Loghain still has some decent intentions driving his behaviour, but he isn't apologetic about the cunt-like ways to achieve them. He's on low-end of the anti-hero scale, while the archdemon is a cunt for the sake of being a cunt. (well technically it's a cunt because it's being infected with a zombie STD but that's another story)

I'd imagine they wanted to go for this setup because in the grittier setting your typical anti-hero winds up like a too nice guy, relatively.

[eldaec]

Here's the thing though: we have no idea how large the darkspawn army was. We're led to believe that Loghain intentionally held back his troops in order to get rid of the king and the Grey Wardens, but we have no way of knowing if attacking meant he wasn't just throwing away lives, and they actually had a chance of winning. (Of course, now that I think aobut it, he didn't believe this was a true Blight. Let's ignore that and move on, shall we?  )

During my first playthrough, I assumed that he was colluding with the darkspawn for some reason (I thought that was the reason why the darkspawn got access to the tower) but that never came up.

It's Bioware, so the plot and his motivation changes according to whatever you decide in order to make you right (or wrong if the plot needs you to be wrong).

[Lantyssa]

The only 'justification' for Loghain's actions are that he's paranoid the Orlesians will attack again.  Mostly, he resented Calain inviting the Orlesian Wardens to help fight the Blight so he let him die.  There is nothing at all redeeming about the man.  He's a paranoid control-freak.

The Dwarf kings were a good example of "villainy" done right. The way Bhelen is portrayed at first is brutal, but there's a downside to the older, passive guy and what he represents.

I'm at Orzimmar in my first play through with a city elf.  From that perspective there is very little to tell you about either potential king other than some unpleasant politicking from both sides.  With what little information they give to outsiders, she had to side with Bhelen in the hopes it would break the repressive dwarven caste system.

That said, I did the Dwarf Noble play-through though over the weekend so I could have a better feel of the politics and OMG...  I need to finish my first game so I can get back to Orzimmar with my dwarf and go kick some ass.

[Fraeg]

The only 'justification' for Loghain's actions are that he's paranoid the Orlesians will attack again.  Mostly, he resented Calain inviting the Orlesian Wardens to help fight the Blight so he let him die.  There is nothing at all redeeming about the man.  He's a paranoid control-freak.

The Dwarf kings were a good example of "villainy" done right. The way Bhelen is portrayed at first is brutal, but there's a downside to the older, passive guy and what he represents.

I'm at Orzimmar in my first play through with a city elf.  From that perspective there is very little to tell you about either potential king other than some unpleasant politicking from both sides.  With what little information they give to outsiders, she had to side with Bhelen in the hopes it would break the repressive dwarven caste system.

That said, I did the Dwarf Noble play-through though over the weekend so I could have a better feel of the politics and OMG...  I need to finish my first game so I can get back to Orzimmar with my dwarf and go kick some ass.

This is one point where I felt there was a huge gap in the plot.  Playing a casteless dwarf and the background my character had was pretty lacking.  The choice btwn Bhelen and H-whatshisname felt completely arbitrary.  I ended up calling a friend who was playing a dwarf noble and she was able to fill me in on the details that helped me make a choice.  Perhaps this is intentional, but it simply felt annoying.  You are being asked to make what could be a pretty significan decision and you aren't given enough info to make an informed choice.

[Sky]

I dunno, it seemed it was pretty clearly supporting the class system vs a 'change' candidate, with a twist of aeducan legacy thrown in. I am playing as a human noble, I don't think that alters anything from the stock story down there. I rp'd it as a noble supporting the caste system, though I did consider supporting Bhelen as a "pup" himself, as they kept claiming he was a bad choice but not expanding why that was personally, just allusions to his supporting changes to the traditional dwarven system. Then you see how the casteless get shit on and the prejudice against them and it does make it a pretty interesting decision.

I guess I should run the dwarf noble origin just to see the deeper story?

[Riggswolfe]

I dunno, it seemed it was pretty clearly supporting the class system vs a 'change' candidate, with a twist of aeducan legacy thrown in. I am playing as a human noble, I don't think that alters anything from the stock story down there. I rp'd it as a noble supporting the caste system, though I did consider supporting Bhelen as a "pup" himself, as they kept claiming he was a bad choice but not expanding why that was personally, just allusions to his supporting changes to the traditional dwarven system. Then you see how the casteless get shit on and the prejudice against them and it does make it a pretty interesting decision.

I guess I should run the dwarf noble origin just to see the deeper story?

Interesting take on it. I viewed Bhelen as a murdering, lying thug who probably committed patricide and Hwhatever as honorable but passive. It made my choice a bit difficult simply because I wasn't convinced H would be able to hold the throne if I helped him get it.

What convinced me to go against Bhelen was:

[rattran]

I backed Hwatever simply because Bhelen's guy threatened me.  They were both dicks, and much fun could have been had with just killing all the nobles, then sticking someone random on the throne.  Like that pig-rabbit sales guy, he seemed like he'd make a better king than either of the candidates.  But that option seemingly wasn't available.

[tmp]

The dwarf king choice did feel like making uninformed decision for anyone but the dwarves but that's mostly by design i think. In the end it wasn't very hard one to make, too -- the game rather clearly paints one candidate as clever manipulator and the other as straightforward and 'honourable' guy. Given the whole point of the exercise was to get someone who would be both in position and likely to uphold an ancient treaty... welp.

It's nicely done though since there's a handful of other reasonings which can be used to go either way.

[MrHat]

I'm a sucker for arena fights.

All it took here.

[Raguel]

I felt like Bhelen was the obvious bad guy (the whole conflict sounded too much like a Russell Crowe movie  ) but I didn't really care who ended up as king so I figured I'd take the quest that looked like it was the quickest route to dwarven aid  ;)


Speaking of "influences" on the game, I'm guessing "LadyHawke" for one of the other main storylines, but I'm drawing a blank on the Circle.

[Fraeg]

I'm a sucker for arena fights.

All it took here.

[Tebonas]

As a dwarven noble that whole sequence was deeply satisfying to me. But as everybody else it was just an uninformed choice.

[Merusk]

The Dwarf Nobel origin I ran right before hitting Orz really colored my opinion of Bhelen.

However, from a "RP" standpoint, all it really took was Bhelen acting like a dick and the rumors he'd framed his brother for the other's murder.. then his dad "mysteriously" and quickly died.  Oh yeah, you're just the guy I want on my side after being betrayed by an "honorable" human noble and the discovery my best friend from Mage School was a poisoner and a blood mage.

 Fuck you and your claim by lineage, Mr groundweller. I'll go with the guy who didn't murder his father.

[Ingmar]

Also, people, remember when you walk into Orzammar, you see Bhelen just flat out murder someone in the street right in front of you. What more do you want, a flashing neon sign that says "I'm the evil choice?"