Star Trek Online: Here We Go Again!

[Khaldun]

The avatar stuff looks really cheap and terrible, which I think reflects how reskinning of this kind makes something which sort of works visually (Champions) into something which is pretty much a visual failure.

Interesting that the Klingons have a base in Zangarmarsh. I never found that part of the zone, I guess.

[Numtini]

If we're going to reskin a superhero game, let's reskin COX into some kind of dungeon thing where you fight massive hordes of orcs.

This is going to be an epic flop. Is there someone involved in the $$ that could pull the plug? Or is it all Cryptic?

[Malakili]

If we're going to reskin a superhero game, let's reskin COX into some kind of dungeon thing where you fight massive hordes of orcs.

This is going to be an epic flop. Is there someone involved in the $$ that could pull the plug? Or is it all Cryptic?

Atari is publishing, I guess.  Seems like a waste to pull the plug now though, they are releasing in just over 2 months, might as well sell boxes and get some money back, at least from a business standpoint

[Khaldun]

Indeed, I think that's the business model here. Pulling the plug presupposes that they give a shit whether the game survives with any dignity intact whatsoever past the first two or three months. I really pity the community relations guy who gets saddled with babysitting the forums for this one, though.

[Mrbloodworth]

You know whats awesome? Sending over shuttle pods to the target ship that beam onto the ship, then you blow the ship up.

[LK]

Also, when you blow the ship up? POOF.

Yeah.

[Malakili]

You know whats awesome? Sending over shuttle pods to the target ship that beam onto the ship, then you blow the ship up.

You know, I think Cryptic has forgotten that it takes more than combat to make an MMO.  I keep hearing their dev interviews like "Well, we didn't do this or that, or we did this or that, because we are really trying to create a fun experience for the player."  Ok, listen up Cryptic.  "Fun" doesn't cut it for an MMO.  You are making a game that people are, hypothetically, going to be playing day after day, month after month. "Fun" might get someone someone through a couple weeks, but in a game where you are paying a monthly fee, most players want something a little more than just a mindless bit of "fun."  Its actually ok to make players slightly frustrated or mad, as long as you are giving them avenues to work past it.  Shit, a lot of times crafting in games isn't "fun" but I get a nice feeling from collecting all the stuff I need, and making something.  I wouldn't describe the feeling as "fun" but rather "Satisfying."  Cryptic seems totally unable to grasp this concept.  Shit, Bejeweled is "fun" but i wouldn't pay a god damn monthly fee for it.

[Khaldun]

Yup. That's the thing. As a single-player experience, most subscription MMOs blow goat smegma. "Let's see, I feel like playing a superhero video game. Arkham Asylum or Champions Online?" Not a tough choice in those terms. If you're interested in an MMO, you're interested in a persistent world where you play at least in the presence of other people (leaving aside the whole solo play/raiding debate). That's not just the value-added of the subscription, it's a reason why the solo play component gets a license to be as weak in design terms as it usually is. Cryptic might get away with suckering people once, twice maybe even three times by implying that they're making a persistent environment, a virtual world, a long-term multiplayer experience, and doing it around an IP where their potential customers really want the experience of being in that world, a part of that setting. But you can't pull that off indefinitely: eventually you won't even get box sales that justify the bare-bones development costs.

[Mrbloodworth]

You know whats awesome? Sending over shuttle pods to the target ship that beam onto the ship, then you blow the ship up.

You know, I think Cryptic has forgotten that it takes more than combat to make an MMO. 

I think they forgot that there was a bunch of Redshirts just beamed to that ship.

[Malakili]

You know whats awesome? Sending over shuttle pods to the target ship that beam onto the ship, then you blow the ship up.

You know, I think Cryptic has forgotten that it takes more than combat to make an MMO.

I think they forgot that there was a bunch of Redshirts just beamed to that ship.

I don't think so, I think they just don't care.

[HaemishM]

You know whats awesome? Sending over shuttle pods to the target ship that beam onto the ship, then you blow the ship up.

Holy fuck, that video turned ship to ship combat from mildly interesting to ANOTHER FUCKING DIKU. Boarding parties are a special ability.

[caladein]

Holy God that looks bad.

[Malakili]

Holy fuck, that video turned ship to ship combat from mildly interesting to ANOTHER FUCKING DIKU. Boarding parties are a special ability.

Yeah, it pretty much looks that way.

[Khaldun]

My crystal ball shows the following future forum threads at STO's officials:


DEVS: WTF? Redshirt Nerf
I spent 30 points speccing the tank skill "Phaser Sacrifice" and now you've nerfed it down so that it's no better than the Helmsman ability "OMG THE PAIN OF A MYSTERIOUS PSYCHIC ATTACK THAT IGNORES DEFLECTORS". My entire guild plans to quit over this: overnight all of our redshirts respecced into Cone-Bra Yeomen.

DEVS: Please balance Engineers
It is just not fair that Engineers can skill into the Transporter Resurrection line, which is massively overpowered. My Medical Officer just has some measly buffs and the anti-Vulcan taunt ability, whereas Engineers can eliminate the Borg CC abilities and rez characters using upgraded Transporter III gear which is totally easy to get, because the Organians are bugged and exploitable.

and so on  

[Mrbloodworth]

You know whats awesome? Sending over shuttle pods to the target ship that beam onto the ship, then you blow the ship up.

You know, I think Cryptic has forgotten that it takes more than combat to make an MMO.

I think they forgot that there was a bunch of Redshirts just beamed to that ship.

I don't think so, I think they just don't care.

And that goes contrary to anything starfleet. I mean, yes, it is not uncommon for a Redshirt to die. But i am sure we have all seen many an episode where they ALWAYS try to save crew members, even if not on the bridge staff.

It just does not fit.

[Nevermore]

If we're going to reskin a superhero game, let's reskin COX into some kind of dungeon thing where you fight massive hordes of orcs.

Gauntlet Online! 

[Venkman]

I don't think so, I think they just don't care.

And that goes contrary to anything starfleet. I mean, yes, it is not uncommon for a Redshirt to die. But i am sure we have all seen many an episode where they ALWAYS try to save crew members, even if not on the bridge staff.

It just does not fit.

Whoever made that video didn't care. From what I've read, boarding parties are more than buffs so there's benefits to bringing them back.

As to not being starfleet, this is likely just Auto Assault in space. There is as much "Trek" in this game as there is Asimov in that I, Robot movie.

[statisticalfool]

I understand (and hate) the "release crap, sell lots of boxes, forget it exists" strategy they used for Champions to theoretically get the money for STO, but given how much this seems more of the same, what are they going to do after this sells lots of boxes and then people discover nothing's there?

Does it involve Emmert cackling and floating away on a raft made of money?

[Malakili]

I understand (and hate) the "release crap, sell lots of boxes, forget it exists" strategy they used for Champions to theoretically get the money for STO, but given how much this seems more of the same, what are they going to do after this sells lots of boxes and then people discover nothing's there?

Does it involve Emmert cackling and floating away on a raft made of money?

I have a feeling it involves assigning the game a skeleton crew, making vague promises of incoming features most of which will never come, or come in severely diminished states, and then beginning to work on their next game (NWN Online?).

If Champions is any indication, they actually are patching the game quite regularly, so I don't think it'll be a straight game of "see ya suckers" probably do just enough to keep a small playerbase around while working on their next project.  I seem to remember Champions aiming for 100,000 subs (no way they have that many), and I think STO is probably aiming for a similar number.  Regardless of the big name of this IP, they don't seem to be legitimately aiming for a blockbuster game.

[statisticalfool]

I understand (and hate) the "release crap, sell lots of boxes, forget it exists" strategy they used for Champions to theoretically get the money for STO, but given how much this seems more of the same, what are they going to do after this sells lots of boxes and then people discover nothing's there?

Does it involve Emmert cackling and floating away on a raft made of money?

I have a feeling it involves assigning the game a skeleton crew, making vague promises of incoming features most of which will never come, or come in severely diminished states, and then beginning to work on their next game (NWN Online?).

If Champions is any indication, they actually are patching the game quite regularly, so I don't think it'll be a straight game of "see ya suckers" probably do just enough to keep a small playerbase around while working on their next project.  I seem to remember Champions aiming for 100,000 subs (no way they have that many), and I think STO is probably aiming for a similar number.  Regardless of the big name of this IP, they don't seem to be legitimately aiming for a blockbuster game.

I'm baffled by the idea they would think STO should be niche the same way CO is. Champions was at best, a minor RPG that had its heyday in the 80s. Star Trek is a core part of geek/nerd culture, and also happens to be riding high off an umpteen-millions making movie this year.

But I think the really big problem is that after you burn through CO and STO, what license are they going to grab to keep them alive? Twilight Online?

[Sir T]

The advantage or that IP would be that siting around doing nothing and looking stupid would be part of the source material.

[Ashamanchill]

Zzzzzing. But what would all the people in trade chat, who normally bast twilight, bash in this case?

[Malakili]

I'm baffled by the idea they would think STO should be niche the same way CO is. Champions was at best, a minor RPG that had its heyday in the 80s. Star Trek is a core part of geek/nerd culture, and also happens to be riding high off an umpteen-millions making movie this year.

But I think the really big problem is that after you burn through CO and STO, what license are they going to grab to keep them alive? Twilight Online?

I think it seems to be an artifact of their design schedule, I just don't think there is a way they could make the game that ST deserves in the time they are alloted (by their publisher?).  

To answer your question though, the rumor is that they have the rights to a Neverwinter Nights MMO. I don't see that working out well either, if it is true.

[Cyrrex]

Maybe this is a retarded question, but would Bioware ever even dream of giving their IP out to somebody like Cryptic?  That can't be right.

[Ingmar]

Neverwinter Nights isn't Bioware IP.

The question you should ask, is would Wizards of the Coast/Hasbro ever do something stupid with their IP?

Sadly the answer to that is "sometimes".

[statisticalfool]

I'm baffled by the idea they would think STO should be niche the same way CO is. Champions was at best, a minor RPG that had its heyday in the 80s. Star Trek is a core part of geek/nerd culture, and also happens to be riding high off an umpteen-millions making movie this year.

But I think the really big problem is that after you burn through CO and STO, what license are they going to grab to keep them alive? Twilight Online?

I think it seems to be an artifact of their design schedule, I just don't think there is a way they could make the game that ST deserves in the time they are alloted (by their publisher?).  

To answer your question though, the rumor is that they have the rights to a Neverwinter Nights MMO. I don't see that working out well either, if it is true.

Huh. I'm wondering what's left to be done with a NWN MMO that hasn't already been done by DDO + possibly a module designer. Other than not be terrible at launch.

I still think a supernatural dating MMO is printing money.

[eldaec]

The advantage or that IP would be that siting around doing nothing and looking stupid would be part of the source material.

Are you talking about Twilight or Star Trek?

[Merusk]

Zzzzzing. But what would all the people in trade chat, who normally bast twilight, bash in this case?

From what I've seen in the Twilight movie thread, they'd bash the people who bash Twilight.  And James Bond.

[Sir T]

The advantage or that IP would be that siting around doing nothing and looking stupid would be part of the source material.

Are you talking about Twilight or Star Trek?

Someone got the joke 

[UnSub]

I'm baffled by the idea they would think STO should be niche the same way CO is. Champions was at best, a minor RPG that had its heyday in the 80s. Star Trek is a core part of geek/nerd culture, and also happens to be riding high off an umpteen-millions making movie this year.

I think Cryptic's plan is to develop MMOs that are profitable on 100k players. This involves a cut down development schedules and sticking close to the strengths of the Cryptic Engine (which relies on instancing, among other things). Cryptic isn't attempting to grab a lot of cash at release then let the game die - if they were going to do that, they should release single player games - because they are trying to build up a stable of MMOs in a short period of time. Atari wants to be in the MMO business and a key part of that is getting Cryptic to release a MMO in 2009, 2010 and probably 2011. ChampO wasn't the launch they wanted, I'm sure, but it is stage 1 of a bigger plan.

We've lamented studios that have spent $50m+ on a MMO that needs to be the second biggest MMO in the Western market just to survive; Cryptic is the flipside of that. Three or four smaller MMOs that don't necessarily need incredible player numbers to survive could be a great way for a studio to sustain itself... or at least that is the plan imo.

As indicated earlier in this thread, Star Trek games don't necessarily sell well. I can see this selling 1m boxes easy, but player retention will be based on the gameplay. On top of this I think that Star Trek is the kind of IP where you could spend 20 years and $1b developing it only for a vocal group to indicate that "it just isn't Star Trek".

[Triforcer]

Rumors are swirling that Klingons won't make it in by launch, and even then will be a monster play LOTRO-style faction.  The devs have already said that Klingons advance "largely" through PvP.

I won't not try it until they announce the PvP "neutral zone" consists of instanced areas, and not a persistent area.  

EDIT:  I'm not basing the following on any secret closed beta information, but everything about this game is telling me that it is being released not 3 or 6 months early, but 18 months to two years early.  There must be some clause in the relevant contract giving Cryptic a bonus if they get it out by February.  

[Shatter]

 There must be some clause in the relevant contract giving Cryptic a bonus if they get it out by February.  

They are going to need it once they all lose their jobs < 1 year later

[Malakili]

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/352/feature/3792/Star-Trek-Online-Bridges-Bridge-Officers-Preview.html

Bridges and Bridge officers like kinda meh.  Bridges seems like a stop gap for player housing or something.

As for the Bridge Officers, I dunno.  I kind of like the concept of being in control of extra NPCs in an MMO, but this seems like bridge officers = special abilities with their own avatar .

[Montague]

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/352/feature/3792/Star-Trek-Online-Bridges-Bridge-Officers-Preview.html

Bridges and Bridge officers like kinda meh.  Bridges seems like a stop gap for player housing or something.

As for the Bridge Officers, I dunno.  I kind of like the concept of being in control of extra NPCs in an MMO, but this seems like bridge officers = special abilities with their own avatar .

Kind of a neat idea that depends on the implementation. Despite my better judgment I'm leaning towards pre-ordering. I'm rationalizing it by telling myself even though its going to suck I'll get as many hours out of it as a single player game not named Dragon Age.

[Venkman]

I'm baffled by the idea they would think STO should be niche the same way CO is. Champions was at best, a minor RPG that had its heyday in the 80s. Star Trek is a core part of geek/nerd culture, and also happens to be riding high off an umpteen-millions making movie this year.

I think Cryptic's plan is to develop MMOs that are profitable on 100k players. This involves a cut down development schedules and sticking close to the strengths of the Cryptic Engine (which relies on instancing, among other things). Cryptic isn't attempting to grab a lot of cash at release then let the game die - if they were going to do that, they should release single player games - because they are trying to build up a stable of MMOs in a short period of time. Atari wants to be in the MMO business and a key part of that is getting Cryptic to release a MMO in 2009, 2010 and probably 2011. ChampO wasn't the launch they wanted, I'm sure, but it is stage 1 of a bigger plan.

We've lamented studios that have spent $50m+ on a MMO that needs to be the second biggest MMO in the Western market just to survive; Cryptic is the flipside of that. Three or four smaller MMOs that don't necessarily need incredible player numbers to survive could be a great way for a studio to sustain itself... or at least that is the plan imo.

All of this. Most developers in any genre are smart enough to know their chances at a #1 slot in anything. They know what it takes, know what they've got, and only sometimes allow themselves to drink the same koolaid the PR types serve. But that's not as often as you think. The cult of personality days are receding in the wake of budgets too big to allow that much risk. They rightly figure they'll have a #1 company budget when they're employed at that company.

So the focus shifts not from hitting a big home run, but instead to a bunch of base hits. This has been SOE's model for years, and they're not the only one it can work for.