Darkfall "Released"

[Hindenburg]

This discussion is now revolving around specific adjectives.

Awesome.

[Arthur_Parker]

Maybe so in which case my bad for calling him an Elf.  I retract that, he's a half elf, he's probably got a rule "never go full elf".

[ashrik]

Source

Skills
Skill gain has increased significantly in all melee skills
Skill progression in archery has been increased significantly
You are now required to hit a valid target to gain skill in archery
Skilling up in magic has been increased significantly
Skill progression in spells requires the caster to hit a valid target
Number of successful hits required to reach surging mode again with spells has been extremely reduced
Knockback, Seize and Whirlwind have been modified and skill gain has increased
Gameplay / Fixes
Small adjustments made to melee reach depending on character race
Corrected spells that would skill up rigor without dealing damage
Corrected a problem some players had while buying skills and starter weapons from vendors
Corrected an issue in auto optimization
Fogginess of environments has been reduced
Various client side issues have been corrected
Clan Mines/Quarries/Groves/etc now start out at 25% capacity and their regrowth rate has been increased
Clan Guard Tower damage had been slightly increased
Monsters
Monster loot for Demon and Fire Giant has been updated
A.I. tactics have been enhanced and improved
User Interface
Improved worldmap and minimap marker information (You can use the options window to change this)
Zoom added to World Map
Improved crafting window
Improved tooltips for crafting window
New tooltip for spells display reagent requirements
Display of active weapon under hotbar updated, improved and fixed
New chat messages displaying who buffed or debuffed you
Vendor icons on minimap now display the vendor name
Player Journal and Clan pages now accessible trough external browsers. Go to http://web001.eu1.darkfallonline.com/darkfall and log in with your username and password
Trading window confirmation now displays the name of the person wanting to trade with you
Various skill descriptions have been improved
Various item descriptions have been improved
Various problems with Journal and Clan windows have been resolved

Weapons

Melee Range has increased:

* Axes
* Clubs
* Greataxes
* Greatclubs
* Knives

New Polearms have been added to the game:

* Guisarme
* Spetum
* Imperial halberd
* Polehammer
* Glaive
* Partisan
* Dragon tail
* Skewer

Visual Updates

We have made visual updates to:
Giant Dragon Skeletons
Blacksmith market stands
Kobold huts and props.
Harbor bases
Human keep bases
Human skeleton props
Minotaur Statues
Some player controlled ships
Miscellaneous props

New Quests

ORDER OF THE AXE - DWARVEN FACTION
A New Enemy
A link to the Leaders
Fire Standard Leaders
Helping Out
The Legendary Blacksmith
FIVE BEARDS TRADING COMPANY - DWARVEN FACTION
Masters of the Dark Taint
A Trading Post in Trouble
Protecting the Trading Post
Evigvanger is Safe
The Miners of Otredale
THE RADIANT CIRCLE - ALFAR FACTION
Rare Sightings
Forgotten Creatures
These New Neighbors
Castle Obad
Materials for Enchantments
The Fallen Necromancers
Shulgan the Cautious
A Matter of Security
The Cursed Ones
THE HARN MANDEAN - ALFAR FACTION
West of Nagast
Weak Minds
ALFAR CAPITAL
Tialanta the Fighter
Five Humans Less
Hunting Mirdain is Fun
True Predators
Big, Slow, Ugly and Stupid
OTHER ALFAR QUESTS
As Strange as they Come
Two Eyes
Hanthar's Gift
Dangerous Gnolls

Crafting
Crafting ingredients have been reduced for
Tribal Pike
Cultist Polearm
Crafting skill gain has been increased
Requirements for getting trueforge armor and trueforge weapon skills have been modified.
Improved crafting window
Improved tooltips for crafting window

World Building

There have been area and world building updates to:
Carpendale
Winterworth
Wetstone
Thangruk
Waterbourne
New NPCs have been added in Obad

Magic
'Leech' spells no longer work on mounts
Mana cost for powerful spells has been reduced
Potential maximum damage for spells has been increased
Holy/Unholy damage will now drain stamina
Bone can now be bought from the arcanist
Spell Balancing

CHANGES TO A BUNCH OF SPELLS YOU DON'T GIVE A SHIT ABOUT

There's some nice stuff in there. I'm glad that all the weapon skill ups were increased "significantly". Just so that people understand, your weapon skill will go from 0-100. With bonuses to weapon damage and/or stamina drain at 25-50-75-100. At 75, you can get that specific weapon mastery which increases the damage you do significantly as you level it. It was one of the bigger differentiators between veteran players/exploiters and newer players or those who didn't spend days hacking away at AFK players. In this city where I hang out, there's this wall we call the Wall of Pain. Against it are around 100 AFK players who sit or stand or cast as their macro directs them to. And we just swing at them up and down the line all day, not killing them, until we run out of stamina. This is probably the quickest way to gain weapon skill and it's pretty fucking brutal. Similarly, people who work on archery get X amount of arrows and typically set an autoclicking macro to just shoot them all off into the sky. Takes a buttload of arrows and time.

All in all, generally good things for people who are playing the game. As is typical for MMO patches, nothing really special or interesting for those who are not interested or were on the fence.

[K9]

And we just swing at them up and down the line all day, not killing them, until we run out of stamina. This is probably the quickest way to gain weapon skill and it's pretty fucking brutal.

Sounds pretty fucking dull tbh.

[HaemishM]

Shouldn't it have been instructive to developers a decade ago that if people take the goddam trouble to set up walls of AFK players to get whacked on rather than gaining skills organically, building in skill grinds IS FUCKING STUPID? Tell me why you can't just be given a set pool of points to build a character with and NEVER HAVE TO GAIN SKILL AGAIN in a PVP game that's supposed to be about player skill and not numberincrement++?

[ashrik]

And we just swing at them up and down the line all day, not killing them, until we run out of stamina. This is probably the quickest way to gain weapon skill and it's pretty fucking brutal.

Sounds pretty fucking dull tbh.

oh god yes, it's horrible. It's pretty much something I do when watching TV. But I really want that weapon mastery, it'll make my account worth quite a bit more.

Shouldn't it have been instructive to developers a decade ago that if people take the goddam trouble to set up walls of AFK players to get whacked on rather than gaining skills organically, building in skill grinds IS FUCKING STUPID? Tell me why you can't just be given a set pool of points to build a character with and NEVER HAVE TO GAIN SKILL AGAIN in a PVP game that's supposed to be about player skill and not numberincrement++?

There's pretty much two prevalent schools of thought on the forums. One that believes that this is a game about competition and every edge you can get helps to further your goals, and the other that thinks you don't need to grind at all and those who do are stupid (aka the "all dem skilpointsl wont help u if u cnt dodge my arrow" crowd). That the game world is so large and spread out allows these two groups of thought to somewhat coexist together and greatly helps to mitigate the kill-you-till-you-quit ability of those who excel.

[Surlyboi]

Ok, Since AP feels like sowing his internet detective douche oats, here we go...

No, the point hasn't shifted. There have been a series of points, but you've managed to deftly avoid catching all of them.

Point the First: If you make a game aimed chiefly at the self-described "hardcore" subset of MMO players, meaning PvP++, (SB, Darkfall) open world looting, etc, That demographic will devolve into Thunderdome in roughly six months. If you make a game that caters to a wider range of players and takes care of the "carebears" and gives the less-than-hardcore a refuge, your game has a much better chance of lasting longer.

Point the Second: Every MMO player is an idiot. But not all idiots are created equal. Therefore, I present the following.

Surlyboi's Greater MMO Dipshit Spotter's Guide. (With a little help from Sheepherder)

Generic MMOtard: One who plays MMOs. This is obviously a catchall.

Mouthbreather, AKA "Nimrod": "Hardcore, yo!" The kind of player that feels the only way to play is to have the experience be as close to a night in Faluja as possible. Because, "there's no better way to play a game than to play one where you're never safe." They play games for the alternately for the adrenaline rush, the challenge and the excuse to be an asshat and fuck up some carebear's day. When not playing MMOs, some of these people can sometimes be found playing shooters on XBox live and teabagging their victims while yelling "eat my dick" into their headsets.

True Carebear: The kind of player that finds any sort of PvP abhorrent and would find a game where basket-weaving was the main draw fascinating.

EQtard: One who still plays Old skool EQ, trying to find some thrill left in that old world, whether it's because they're still tied to an old guild that hasn't moved on, or they're just trying to walk in the shoes of all the old uberguilds that unlocked all the content years ago and moved on to other games.

Vantards: "Hardcores, yo", but not necessarily the same kinds of hardcores as the Mouthbreathers. These hardcores don't particularly need the free-fire zones that the nimrods do. These hardcores pine for the old days of EQ where you were cockblocked at every turn. Where the game punishes you for making the slightest mistake. These guys would be ok if there was a chance that while foresting, you could be killed by a tree falling on you or lose a limb in a freak axe accident.

MMO Mayflies: Players who flit from game to game, hoping that this next one will be the one that they settle on. Many of these mayflies are also...

Secretly Hopeful Cynics: Players who talk shit about the state of the genre and how every game coming down the pike sucks, but still sign up for every beta in the hopes that they'll be proven wrong. They'll never admit any of this though.

WoWtards: Players who want that EQ feel without the cockblocks and with a smooth, user-friendly feel. Players that don't mind that they're slamming their dick with a brick because Blizzard padded the brick a little bit or players new to the genre who have no other frame of reference.

Solotards: Players who like the wide-open world the MMOs provide, but don't really like playing with other MMO players. Mainly because they think other MMO players are asshats, but also because they may not have the time to devote to finding a good group or because they just like playing with themselves.

Grouptards: Players who feel that the ONLY way to play an MMO is with other people and will gladly tell soloers that they're stupid for soloing because "The second M in MMO is 'multiplayer' so obviously you're doing it wrong if you're not playing with me and my awesome group."

I myself fall into at least three of those categories. Yes, I know you're having a hard time wrapping your head around the concept AP, but try. Think of it like this, because someone likes vanilla ice cream doesn't mean they won't eat pistachio.

[Arthur_Parker]

Ok, Since AP feels like sowing his internet detective douche oats, here we go...

No, the point hasn't shifted. There have been a series of points, but you've managed to deftly avoid catching all of them.

Point the First: If you make a game aimed chiefly at the self-described "hardcore" subset of MMO players, meaning PvP++, (SB, Darkfall) open world looting, etc, That demographic will devolve into Thunderdome in roughly six months. If you make a game that caters to a wider range of players and takes care of the "carebears" and gives the less-than-hardcore a refuge, your game has a much better chance of lasting longer.

Point the Second: Every MMO player is an idiot. But not all idiots are created equal. Therefore, I present the following.

That's two points and a lot of text, not even sure the 2nd point has any relevance.

Would I aim a game at purely that 10%?  No, it doesn't make any sense to exclude the 90%. 

Hey already addressed, at length, on harsh penalties for defeat etc etc.  Explain again what's the point I keep missing, is it this point that we seem to be in complete agreement on?

Just face it you don't like pvp, I'm fine with that.  I could say you might not be the most receptive person to change of any form, considering you played a half elf ranger in EQ, EQ2 and in Vanguard for a decade.  But you aren't alone in that, just like the hardcore pvp'ers calling you a "carebear" as they move from UO to SB to DF to X, ever unchanging.

[ashrik]

I hope that Blizzard is the one that finally gets the formula right and the sheer cognitive dissonance makes their heads explode.

[Nebu]

Solotards: Players who like the wide-open world the MMOs provide, but don't really like playing with other MMO players. Mainly because they think other MMO players are asshats, but also because they may not have the time to devote to finding a good group or because they just like playing with themselves.

WAR went a long way toward solving this with PQ's.  If Blizzard can find a way to encourage grouping in a more streamlined fashion while giving me the tools to come and go at will, then I'll play nice with the other kids. 

Forced grouping punishes those players that can't devote x hours to a play session.  It also punishes those players forced to play in pugs.  I'm sick of being punished in games because I have a life but enjoy the type of playing field that an MMO offers. 

[Surlyboi]

Just face it you don't like pvp, I'm fine with that.  I could say you might not be the most receptive person to change of any form, considering you played a half elf ranger in EQ, EQ2 and in Vanguard for a decade.  But you aren't alone in that, just like the hardcore pvp'ers calling you a "carebear" as they move from UO to SB to DF to X, ever unchanging.

A global warming denier accusing someone of not being the most receptive to change? Surely you motherfucking jest. You're not a very good internet detective, are you?

I don't like pvp because it hasn't been done right. Doing pvp as an all-or-nothing prospect is stupid and ultimately will kill a game, a lot faster than lack of content and a whole list of other sins. It's a bad game mechanic.

I played UO. I don't talk about it much, but I played it. And pvped a lot. I pvped a lot in AO as well and I pvp occasionally in EVE as well. So you can take your carebear label and you can shove it up your ass. It's as wrong as the rest of your assumptions.

[DLRiley]

 Surlyboi you had time to play EverQuest 1, 2, Vanguard, Anarachy Online, Ultima Online, ANd EvE. Are you just getting out of high school?

There are a few design tenets when it comes to placing pvp in a game. One of which has been proven successful for 2 wildly different niches in the mmo genre (WoW and EvE) and has worked successfully current subscription games ( COH/V, FF11, LotR). Which is the classic, self contained pve game with pvp at the tail end. When I mean self contained, I mean pve game can be played by itself while borrowing very little or nothing at all from the conventions (whether be pvp objects or rule sets) used in a pvp portion of the game. The pve effectively stands alone with very little if not nothing to do with whatever pvp that exist.

But people want a pvp game, couldn't we just make a self containing pvp game with pve at the tail end. Well there are 2 general problems, one of them deals with the fact that a self contained pvp game will have very little want for a pve game on the tail end and the second one being that its never been made before as far as mmo's are concerned. There is no such thing as a self contained pvp game in a persistent world and that's not because its never been done its because instances work 100 times better, because in an instance world YOU CAN solve problem 1, which is the not needing pve. Where as in a persistent world you DO NEED pve and while it can be treated as the tail end of the design, you will never created a self contained pvp world, because the conventions of the pve game is shared with your pvp rule sets and objectives by the very nature of design. DaoC, Shadowbane, UO, WAR, AoC, and its ilk are all examples of hybrid systems, Pvp rule sets and objectives married with pve conventions; progression whether through leveling or skill based, environmental dangers IE mobs, economy and by extension crafting for example.

Now none of the games I listed I consider good games. In fact the only real successful ones were DaoC and UO, who were successful during the "internet is serious business" phase of mmo history. What was one inherent flaw that even the guys at AoC are coming around to learning? When you make a hybrid you have to account for the fun level of both PvP and PvE. No matter how pvp centric you say your game is if the pvp is not self contained, which is always true by the virtue of having a persistent world in the first place, then you need to account for the fun level of the pve as well.  A lot of devs aren't designing these pvp centric games with the understanding that they ARE designing a hybrid game that can not be held up only on the merit of its pvp. This is a lesson AoC is learning but games like Darkfall will never learn.

[Mrbloodworth]

You are now required to hit a valid target to gain skill in archery

Only late by 10 years! WHO could have predicted that this would be an issue? Those poor trees. Wait, this never happens, its totally overblown by the "haters".

[Ingmar]

And you don't think it is possible for a thinking, intelligent individual to say, "I like these gameplay elements despite having seen them before" and enjoy them in their polished form?

Some do. I don't. I did enough of that mechanic in six years of EQ. I'm tired of it, no matter how much you polish it.

See, there's a difference between saying "I don't enjoy this, for reasons X, Y and Z," and "all you people who enjoy this are stupid for liking it". One of those statements can actually lead to interesting discussion.

[Der Helm]

Surlyboi you had time to play EverQuest 1, 2, Vanguard, Anarachy Online, Ultima Online, ANd EvE. Are you just getting out of high school?

[Ashamanchill]

Point the First: If you make a game aimed chiefly at the self-described "hardcore" subset of MMO players, meaning PvP++, (SB, Darkfall) open world looting, etc, That demographic will devolve into Thunderdome in roughly six months.

Lol.  This quote wins the thread.  If there's a bad Thunderdome reference, I haven't heard it.  Nice list by the way.

[Arthur_Parker]

Just face it you don't like pvp, I'm fine with that.  I could say you might not be the most receptive person to change of any form, considering you played a half elf ranger in EQ, EQ2 and in Vanguard for a decade.  But you aren't alone in that, just like the hardcore pvp'ers calling you a "carebear" as they move from UO to SB to DF to X, ever unchanging.

A global warming denier accusing someone of not being the most receptive to change? Surely you motherfucking jest. You're not a very good internet detective, are you?

I don't like pvp because it hasn't been done right. Doing pvp as an all-or-nothing prospect is stupid and ultimately will kill a game, a lot faster than lack of content and a whole list of other sins. It's a bad game mechanic.

I played UO. I don't talk about it much, but I played it. And pvped a lot. I pvped a lot in AO as well and I pvp occasionally in EVE as well. So you can take your carebear label and you can shove it up your ass. It's as wrong as the rest of your assumptions.

I don't consider myself a "global warming denier", there's an understanding about trying to prevent politics leaking out here, so if you want to bump the politics thread, go ahead, I've see if I can overcome my natural reluctance to discuss the subject.  Internet detective is a "grief title", nothing to do with me.   I didn't call you a "carebear", you used the term first so I naturally assumed it was of significance to you, obviously I assumed incorrectly as I was unaware of how you "pvped a lot".

[Hindenburg]

I don't like pvp because it hasn't been done right.

Not even by capcom?

[Surlyboi]

I don't like pvp because it hasn't been done right.

Not even by capcom?

Nope.

...Fucking Blanka...

[schild]

I don't like pvp because it hasn't been done right.

Not even by capcom?

What a stupid response.

[Hindenburg]

I don't like pvp because it hasn't been done right.

Not even by capcom?

What a stupid response.

What a stupid response.

[Modern Angel]

GUYS I HEAR THERE ARE SOME STUPID RESPONSES HERE WAT?

[Surlyboi]

WAT WAT? IN THE BUTT?

[K9]

Less arguing, more fail please.

[DLRiley]

I don't know if this thread was about the fail that is darkfall we wouldn't be approaching page 80.

[Hawkbit]

I asked everyone to stop posting on page 69.  Nobody listened. 

[raydeen]

I asked everyone to stop posting on page 69.  Nobody listened. 

What, you think a trainwreck is gonna just stop on a dime? Nah, you've got to compensate for momentum. You should've asked for it to stop on page 40 in order to have it stop on page 69.

[Ashamanchill]

I asked everyone to stop posting on page 69.  Nobody listened. 

What, you think a trainwreck is gonna just stop on a dime? Nah, you've got to compensate for momentum. You should've asked for it to stop on page 40 in order to have it stop on page 69.

Lol.  No one listens to that poor naysaying engineer back at the station, insisting the engine is going to blow, and the wheels aren't fastened right, and the whole thing is DOOOOOOMED, and now we have this crash site sprawled over 79 pages.

[Mrbloodworth]

Your city walls, they mean nothing.

[SnakeCharmer]

I have no idea what I just watched.  I saw lag, lag, crappy anims and char models, lag, lag, a huge freaking sledgehammer being beat on a wierd looking structure.

[Mrbloodworth]

I have no idea what I just watched.  I saw lag, lag, crappy anims and char models, lag, lag, a huge freaking sledgehammer being beat on a wierd looking structure.

... And everyone walking up an almost 90 degree angle to simply jump over a player city's wall (1:19). Two different spots.

[sidereal]

Coalition of the Chillin is an awesome guild name.

[Nebu]

Your city walls, they mean nothing.

They spent how many years developing this? 

Anyone that pays money for this deserves what they get. 

[ashrik]

It's okay, we didn't want our $15/month anyways

[palmer_eldritch]

Your city walls, they mean nothing.

I thought the first bit when they were riding their mounts looked pretty cool.