Darkfall "Released"

[Arthur_Parker]

Well Eve's population isn't eating itself so it comes back to having too harsh a penalty for defeat being a bad thing.  I'm not pointing out anything new, MA was "painting with extremely broad strokes" in his example, even considering that, I think it's interesting that his example implies that hardcore pvp players are 9 times easier to attract (if we consider them as only 10% of the market).

Would I aim a game at purely that 10%?  No, it doesn't make any sense to exclude the 90%. 

So it comes down to is it possible to make a PVE game that appeals to the 90% but doesn't have fixed rigid level advancement?  More skill based with a bell curve advancement (maybe even real time based skill training), zoneless, or if not completely zoneless at least designed to allow zone movement with lots of choke points instead of very few (road into a zone, flight master destination point being the few).  Some kind of randomised loot system instead of set percentage drops, a good crafting system with resource nodes.

That's a lot of effort just to help make your PVE game more compatible with different PVP ruleset/s, just to have the potential to be attractive to 10% of the population on a different server ruleset. 

Lots of disadvantages.  The advantages ~ maybe you don't need two factions entirely separated, you don't waste half your content on players who only see one side, you can still have factions based on language limited communication (or not).  It's different, it's not a WoW clone, is that an advantage or not?

Edit, consider this, when talking about WAR in the early days, Mythic said there wouldn't be any levels, no BOP, PaulB recently said they had a career system planned with 256 different careers.  Why did they think those things were a good idea at one point?  (They were always going to be screwed by the zone layout but I believe a few of us said that when we first saw the zone diagram a couple of years ago).

[Modern Angel]

No, don't design a game that caters primarily to that demo. They'll bite you in the ass every time.

You could design a game that has elements that those 10% would find attractive, but don't make those elements the raison d'être of the game or you'll end up with a population that eats itself rather quickly.

This.

[DLRiley]

Everyone says EvE population doesn't eat itself but people never mention why. The reason WHY EvE doesn't eat itself is because EvE is not about the War. The War makes a great forum topic, but that's NOT EvE 90% of the time for 90% of the playerbase. EvE works because its a economy sim with just enough open world mechanics to allow a consistent war WITHOUT the side effect of dumping the losers off the server. What people should aim for is exactly what WoW and EvE have done, allow players to participate in world pvp without making them have to worry about world pvp unless they chose to. Basically self containing pve games with just enough world pvp convention but NOTHING MORE. There must be a cut off point somewhere that insist that while your game HAS world pvp it is not ABOUT world pvp. The type of playerbase gained from even having world pvp are by nature parasitic. They need a pve playerbase several times larger then their own in order to survive.

[Surlyboi]

Everyone says EvE population doesn't eat itself but people never mention why. The reason WHY EvE doesn't eat itself is because EvE is not about the War. The War makes a great forum topic, but that's NOT EvE 90% of the time for 90% of the playerbase. EvE works because its a economy sim with just enough open world mechanics to allow a consistent war WITHOUT the side effect of dumping the losers off the server. What people should aim for is exactly what WoW and EvE have done, allow players to participate in world pvp without making them have to worry about world pvp unless they chose to. Basically self containing pve games with just enough world pvp convention but NOTHING MORE. There must be a cut off point somewhere that insist that while your game HAS world pvp it is not ABOUT world pvp. The type of playerbase gained from even having world pvp are by nature parasitic. They need a pve playerbase several times larger then their own in order to survive.

That man sees the big picture.

[waylander]

Here's a little gem of a write up on Darkfall World War I

Sounds fun from a top level, but what's missing is all the grind involved in getting to and maintaining that level of combat across the server.

Just like Shadowbane, the cost to constantly rebuild is too great and as a result each new City or Nation defeated results in fewer paying subscribers.

There has to be a better way to provide PVP that doesn't result in killing off the playerbase.

[DLRiley]

Well, you can kill it slowly or quickly. Pick your poison.

[Arthur_Parker]

That man sees the big picture.

Yeah, do what the only two mmo's not banished to the graveyard do.  Meanwhile someone somewhere is working on a WoW clone that's going to end up in the graveyard.  It's a bit like watching your dog chase parked cars.

[Surlyboi]

You continue to miss the point.

And really? Judging the quality of a game by looking at what's in the graveyard on this site full of MMO mayflies? Surely, you fucking jest.

But hey, go right ahead and keep positing that catering to the locusts will one day net someone a bunch of moneyhats.

[Hindenburg]

catering to the locusts will one day net someone a bunch of moneyhats.

Worked wonders for Cliffyb.

[Arthur_Parker]

You continue to miss the point.

I got it the first time ..... years ago.

[Surlyboi]

catering to the locusts will one day net someone a bunch of moneyhats.

Worked wonders for Cliffyb.

Different time. Back then, you mentioned the word "internet" and stupid people fell all over themselves to give you cash.

[Hindenburg]

2006 was a different time?

[Arthur_Parker]

And really? Judging the quality of a game by looking at what's in the graveyard on this site full of MMO mayflies? Surely, you fucking jest.

You call people Wowtards.  What's with your post quoting DLRiley saying "do what WoW & Eve did", then smacking WoW in the very next thread?  Make your mind up much?

[LC]

To be honest I think wow players are the mouth breathers. I've met too many for anyone to convince me otherwise.


Surlyboi:
Are you that Surly guy from Society of the Anvil? If I remember correctly, he quit in a fit of rage after losing a city to us not long ago.

[raydeen]

To be honest I think wow players are the mouth breathers. I've met too many for anyone to convince me otherwise.

Well, kinda. WoW did for MMOs what AOL did for the Internet. It brought boatloads of the unwashed masses into what was for a while a pretty exclusive club. WoW was easy to get into, ran on just about everybody's system, was hyped out the wazoo, and had a built in fanbase of pretty much everybody who liked Warcraft, Starcraft and Diablo. Then with word of mouth, much more of the general population got sucked in once they got exposed to the game. Not everyone is a WoWtard, there's just a lot more of them compared to other games due to the insane size of the playerbase.

[Bzalthek]

I'm sorry, sir.  Logic is not allowed in this discussion.

[Surlyboi]

To be honest I think wow players are the mouth breathers. I've met too many for anyone to convince me otherwise.


Surlyboi:
Are you that Surly guy from Society of the Anvil? If I remember correctly, he quit in a fit of rage after losing a city to us not long ago.

Well, considering the number of people that play WoW, yeah, you're bound to run into mouthbreathers. Raydeen sums it up nicely. The AOL comparison is spot on.

And considering I had to look up who the Society of the Anvil was, I'm pretty sure I'm not that guy.

In response to Arthur Parker, nice dissembling. Just because I think WoW did something right doesn't mean I don't think the game and the majority of its playerbase sucks as a whole. So yeah, "WoWtards", people content to play that game, because they think it's the fucking robot jesus because they don't know any better.

Lastly, 2006 was indeed a different time. That was when everyone saw WoW exceed every expectation for an MMO and just new they could replicate it by doing the exact same thing. SWG had just NGE'd itself, and everybody was suddenly thinking they could make the moneyhats by just shoving their own crap into the same mold.

[Hindenburg]

Very well. Problem is, cliffyb also profited from locusts in 2008.

Also, woosh.

[Arthur_Parker]

In response to Arthur Parker, nice dissembling. Just because I think WoW did something right doesn't mean I don't think the game and the majority of its playerbase sucks as a whole. So yeah, "WoWtards", people content to play that game, because they think it's the fucking robot jesus because they don't know any better.

Just what game should people be playing to get off your shit list?  You dislike WoW players (WoWtards) and Darkfall players (nimrods), yet you said the demographics were different.  "They don't know any better", what's better, is it a secret?

[gryeyes]

In response to Arthur Parker, nice dissembling. Just because I think WoW did something right doesn't mean I don't think the game and the majority of its playerbase sucks as a whole. So yeah, "WoWtards", people content to play that game, because they think it's the fucking robot jesus because they don't know any better.

How exactly would their opinion of WoW in the hierarchy of MMO's change with experience? If anything knowledge of previous and contemporary MMO's would make them praise WoW more not less.

[sidereal]

Just what game should people be playing to get off your shit list?  You dislike WoW players (WoWtards) and Darkfall players (nimrods), yet you said the demographics were different.  "They don't know any better", what's better, is it a secret?

Of course the demographics are different.  You deny that Darkfall went after self-described hardcore p33n-wavers?  That's a demographic.  It's not like 'idiot' is a monolithic demographic with no subcategories.

[Surlyboi]

Very well. Problem is, cliffyb also profited from locusts in 2008.

Also, woosh.

Ah, I see what you did there. A little late, but I see it.

And Arthur, nothing would get most gamers off my shit list. And "Nimrods" is a general term. It doesn't apply specifically to Darkfall players (though that's where they happen to be at the moment.) Sidereal elucidates it well.

Lastly, knowledge of previous and contemporary MMOs only gives perspective. It could change opinions because maybe they'd realize that all WoW does is recycles the same shit its forebears have, it just polishes it to fucking death.

[Ingmar]

And you don't think it is possible for a thinking, intelligent individual to say, "I like these gameplay elements despite having seen them before" and enjoy them in their polished form?

[DLRiley]

Wouldn't that be admitting people really enjoy being a rat in a treadmill?

[Ingmar]

Why is that something that's so completely obvious so hard to admit? If you're enjoying yourself, there's no sense in being embarrassed about it.

[DLRiley]

Why is that something that's so completely obvious so hard to admit? If you're enjoying yourself, there's no sense in being embarrassed about it.

Well in its really hard for developers to admit that, and especially the arm chair devs like everyone in this forum to admit that. Players don't need to admit their stupid and they simply don't care. Its the devs who are racking their brain trying to figure out how to please a playerbase that is perfectly happy running around in circles.

[ashrik]

Enough with the bickering. There's a patch day tomorrow!

Let's take bets on which system gets horrifically savaged

I'll go for: Archery skill ups will only occur when the arrow hits a person
Reduced rigor gain from magic
Earthquake will no longer have controllable damage
And, of course, world building updates.

[DLRiley]

But the bickering has given us 78 pages on sarcasm 

[Surlyboi]

And you don't think it is possible for a thinking, intelligent individual to say, "I like these gameplay elements despite having seen them before" and enjoy them in their polished form?

Some do. I don't. I did enough of that mechanic in six years of EQ. I'm tired of it, no matter how much you polish it.

[NiX]

Enough with the bickering. There's a patch day tomorrow!

Let's take bets on which system gets horrifically savaged

I'll go for: Archery skill ups will only occur when the arrow hits a person
Reduced rigor gain from magic
Earthquake will no longer have controllable damage
And, of course, world building updates.

Keep us posted. Watching this train explode at the station is awesome.

[Sheepherder]

Some do. I don't. I did enough of that mechanic in six years of EQ. I'm tired of it, no matter how much you polish it.

So really what separates you from a WoWtard is that you have slammed your cock with a brick enough to know it hurts.  Whereas presumably a WoWtard a) Hasn't slammed their dick enough, b) Likes the feel of slammed dick in the morning, or c) Doesn't doesn't realize they're slamming their dick because Blizzard padded the brick a little bit?

[Arthur_Parker]

Just what game should people be playing to get off your shit list?  You dislike WoW players (WoWtards) and Darkfall players (nimrods), yet you said the demographics were different.  "They don't know any better", what's better, is it a secret?

Of course the demographics are different.  You deny that Darkfall went after self-described hardcore p33n-wavers?  That's a demographic.  It's not like 'idiot' is a monolithic demographic with no subcategories.

Sure, but if he's making the point "don't design a game this way because it appeals to a subset of idiots", it's kinda interesting that he thinks pretty much everyone is an idiot.

[Vinadil]

Here's a little gem of a write up on Darkfall World War I

Sounds fun from a top level, but what's missing is all the grind involved in getting to and maintaining that level of combat across the server.

Just like Shadowbane, the cost to constantly rebuild is too great and as a result each new City or Nation defeated results in fewer paying subscribers.

There has to be a better way to provide PVP that doesn't result in killing off the playerbase.

The strange thing is... once a city is built it almost NEVER gets destroyed.  I am starting to think that if they had just cut "city buildng" (which means resource grinding) and started the world with fully-built cities that people then fought over; much of the player burn out would have been avoided.  People getting into the game now will likely experience much less grind, probably similar to EVE after the economy got going and ships/weapons/ammo began to populate on the market.  Fact is this game still has some fun PvP, and once people realize that cities never blow up (like Shadowbane) it may help the whole "we lost our city we might as well just leave the game" syndrome, especially since most new city owners are taking over cities that they did not farm for.

[Surlyboi]

Some do. I don't. I did enough of that mechanic in six years of EQ. I'm tired of it, no matter how much you polish it.

So really what separates you from a WoWtard is that you have slammed your cock with a brick enough to know it hurts.  Whereas presumably a WoWtard a) Hasn't slammed their dick enough, b) Likes the feel of slammed dick in the morning, or c) Doesn't doesn't realize they're slamming their dick because Blizzard padded the brick a little bit?

In a nutshell, yeah.

And yet again, AP, the point eludes you. Sidereal said it well, "It's not like 'idiot' is a monolithic demographic with no subcategories."

Yes, according to me, everyone's an idiot; but some idiots are more toxic than others. Design your game primarily around the less toxic idiots, because your ROI will be better. Do however, throw the full-on asshats a bone in it though because it does make for interesting gaming at times.

[Arthur_Parker]

And yet again, AP, the point eludes you. Sidereal said it well, "It's not like 'idiot' is a monolithic demographic with no subcategories."

Yes, according to me, everyone's an idiot; but some idiots are more toxic than others. Design your game primarily around the less toxic idiots, because your ROI will be better. Do however, throw the full-on asshats a bone in it though because it does make for interesting gaming at times.

Is the "point" shifting?  Seems to me it's that hardcore pvp has very limited appeal, well no shit, that was pointed out on page 1.  Or thousands of times over the last ten years.  Or is it the other point of the crowd it attracts are idiots but a WoW player is a different kind of idiot.

If we still wanted to shoot the shit about pvp games and pve games over 70 pages later in a Darkfall thread we can do that, it's not like it matters.

So on the subject of how the "unpopular play style" of hardcore pvp might perform better at attracting or keeping players, I made a few comments.  Such as don't make a game purely aimed at such a small section of players, also don't make defeat too harsh.  Again no new points there. 

I could also say, I wonder if guild/clan support in past games would play a factor, maybe actively encouraging larger and larger sized clans/guilds would help with retention.  I could support that point by talking about the largest corporation/alliiance in Eve (which I was a member of when I played), I could talk about the allegiance system in AC1 (from when I played on Darktide), I could talk about SB, L2, DAoC, WoW, WAR etc and how they all managed clan/guild support based on my experiences playing.  But I guess I'd be missing the point or something again, you'd probably just disagree and talk about your five years spent in EQ as an Elf. 

I'm certainly not saying that your comments aren't just as valid as mine on the subject, (although I might poke fun at your lack of new points), but then I'm not judging people as "tard" based on what they personally find enjoyable to play.