Darkfall "Released"

[Azaroth]

What holds the world together, as I have learned from bitter experience, is sexual intercourse. And not attracting an audience comprised entirely of fuckshits.

[Nija]

I can't wait for Darkfall release. Or beta. Whatever comes first to those of us in the good old USA.

It's going to be quite a spectacle to behold. You could compare it to a pony show at one of those old redneck circuses, if you know what I mean.

[mutantmagnet]

Even if they could somehow manage to rush the game out before the end of December it would pretty much be suicide since they wouldn't have time for any sort of marketing campaign

It should be painfully obvious to anyone Aventurine doesn't plan to have a marketing campaign and if they actually do it's so completely unconventional it's doubtful they paid a third party to do their campaigning for them.

[Iniquity]

In what way is EvE 'not an interactive experience'? Do you actually understand the meaning of the words in that sentence?

Well done on coming up with a laundry list of superficial differences between two different games. You have successfully proved that EvE and Darkfall are not the same game. You haven't however even begun to address the actual point that was put to you - that EvE has done meaningful PvP correctly and that Darkfall probably will not approach that level of competence in its field.

Sorry, but in what universe are the differences he named superficial?  Eve's 'strategic' space-combat and a more twitch-skill experience in a land-based world are two very, very different things, for starters.  I know a lot of people who want "FFA PvP done right", and maybe 10% of them are playing EVE.  10% haven't heard of EVE, the other 80% are waiting on something else.

Also, are those beta comments filtered?  Of course.  But they do seem refreshingly honest, and the people writing them came off as relatively informed MMOers.

The Darkfall devs have done a lot, considering what they're working with.  Considering the AAA releases have sucked massive donkey balls recently (AoC and WAR), it's worth giving these guys a shot.

There's not a lot to mock here, really -- beta's going on, even if their beta timeframe is stupid (but so is everyone else's, albeit not to this degree), they've released video of ingame footage that looks ridiculously fun even if the graphics whores will cry, they're targeting a chronically under-served niche.

P.S., a thought on world size:  The size and scaling of your world is one more system that should integrate into your overall design.  FFA PvP worlds become more forgiving the larger you make them, since they enable lone wolves to carve out an existence for themselves on their own, rather than a small world like WoW where everybody basically knows the whole lay of the land.  A FFA PvP version of WoW would fall quickly to the catasses for precisely this reason.  A band who can strike out in secret and build a niche for themselves far away from the well-traveled paths can pose an asymmetrical threat to larger, better-known enemies; incessant lightning hit-and-run raids, etc.  On the flip-side, if you're the big kid on the block, infiltrating such a group and figuring out The Location of the Rebels' Secret Base becomes an objective.  It leads to a much more dynamic world, where your gameplay has periods of calm despite the FFA ruleset that then contrast the periods of outright war.  It helps to differentiate such a world from the sport PvP that everyone else is doing.

Vanguard had no such considerations to worry about -- their world size choice was just a kick in the balls to casual PvE'ers.  Different games need different systems.

[Zzulo]

the videos of the game look awful

I don't understand why the title has any fans left at all

[LC]

[UnSub]

Also, WAR isn't the worst MMO release of 2008.  It's just the one with the most wasted potential.

I think that wasted potential makes WAR the perfect candidate for worst MMO release 2008. No-one expected Funcom to pull a rabbit out of a hat, but Mythic seemed like a pretty sure thing.

[Zzulo]

I thought DAoC launched as a pretty shitty product as well?

[Nebu]

I thought DAoC launched as a pretty shitty product as well?

When DAoC released, it was a very solid game.  It lacked a lot of endgame content, but started off much more smoothly than anything before it. 

[Iniquity]

I thought DAoC launched as a pretty shitty product as well?

When DAoC released, it was a very solid game.  It lacked a lot of endgame content, but started off much more smoothly than anything before it. 

It was a pile-of-shit DIKU with no reason to play it, same as EQ.

(See what I did there?)

[Azaroth]

I guess.

[Nebu]

It was a pile-of-shit DIKU with no reason to play it, same as EQ.

(See what I did there?)

Teen angst?

[Iniquity]

Or not, though I'd think it'd be the opposite - being old enough to hold down a job would disabuse you of wanting to pay to have a second one.

...and before we derail further, I'll return to point by saying that Darkfall may very well end up sucking after all, but it's demonstrated enough concrete potential that writing it off as 'inevitable fail' at this point is childish and wrongheaded. My main question at this point is what sort of numbers they need to keep the servers open.

[schild]

it's demonstrated enough concrete potential that writing it off as 'inevitable fail' at this point is childish and wrongheaded.

Also, protip, if you're saying things like:

My main question at this point is what sort of numbers they need to keep the servers open.

That is in fact like, the top end of the "fail" spectrum. And we're not writing it off as inevitable fail, we're just going by history here. And in the long history of overbaked, indie, pie-in-the-sky style MMOGs, erring on the side of absolute failure is pretty much the best of ideas. Also, I fear how much money they've spent, at this point I'm thinking actual success IS in fact impossible, even if they make a fun game.

[Iniquity]

Still, though, "I think they're inevitably fucked from a business standpoint" and "I think their game will inevitably suck" are two very different things.  Unless of course you're alleging both.

[Velorath]

Also, WAR isn't the worst MMO release of 2008.  It's just the one with the most wasted potential.

I think that wasted potential makes WAR the perfect candidate for worst MMO release 2008. No-one expected Funcom to pull a rabbit out of a hat, but Mythic seemed like a pretty sure thing.

Both AoC and WAR kept more people here entertained for at least a short period of time than say, Pirates of the Burning Sea (and whatever else launched this year).  Hell, if for some reason I absolutely had to subscribe to a non-WoW MMO both AoC and WAR would probably still be in the top 5 (a testament to how shitty most MMO's are).

[IainC]

Still, though, "I think they're inevitably fucked from a business standpoint" and "I think their game will inevitably suck" are two very different things.  Unless of course you're alleging both.

I think that pretty much is the consensus, yeah.

[Azaroth]

I was just kind of waiting so I didn't have to say that.

[Iniquity]

Still, though, "I think they're inevitably fucked from a business standpoint" and "I think their game will inevitably suck" are two very different things.  Unless of course you're alleging both.

I think that pretty much is the consensus, yeah.

Don't you have some required-armor cockblocks to be patching in or something?  Or do the Euros just not do the whole "don't shit on your direct competitors in public" thing?

Say what you will about Darkfall, it'll have a large world (your game does not), twitch combat (your game does not), and real, anywhere-anytime PvP as opposed to bullshit sport PvP (your game does not).  It may still suck, but it's got more potential than your game ever did.  It could deliver on only a quarter of its promises and still offer more to PvPers than WAR does.

[schild]

You call it a competitor. I suppose that's a little cute.

Why are you taking it so personally though? Are you on the payroll for Aventurine or whatever they're called now? Also, since when is a large world such a great bullet point? Large and good are two very separate things.

You sound like a vault poster. I'm not defending Iain, but back off before I den you, which would be ironic.

[Velorath]

This thread makes me smile for some reason.

[mutantmagnet]

This thread makes me smile for some reason.

And that just sums up the underlying sentiment in this thread. I'm more optomistic than you guys because I didn't have to sit around waiting for DF for almost a decade. But I am aware of their past and patiently say put up or shut up. What they do flies in the face of conventions and I wish people the best of luck in trying to do something different if that is their stated intentions. The devs did say they'll release this year so it's not worth it to me to mock them until 2009 hits and at least open beta hasn't started.

[schild]

What they do flies in the face of conventions

Over-promising, under-delivering, and being way behind schedule and having a couple good ideas wrapped in the monotony of sameness riding on nothing but good intentions when it finally becomes playable is truly something to be considered "flying in the face of conventions."

[Venkman]

Guys, we need people like Iniquity and mm to try these games out, if for no other reason than preventing whoever is on the fence from making a purchase. They're not going to be convinced that this game will fail, and more than likely won't be back here when it does 

Me personally, I'm at the point where I absolutely do take into account the viability of the backing company. I don't give my credit card information to just anyone. Not after some of the crap that has been pulled with non-cancellable accounts and whatnot.

[mutantmagnet]

and more than likely won't be back here when it does 

Keep dreaming 

[Von Douchemore]

I'm giving DF a chance, its not like there are many MMOs out there that cater to the UO/AC:DT pvp crowd. I don't care if it has shitty graphics, bugs, poor PR, whatnot. If they can make a niche game and don't go bankrupt after 2 months, then it will be a success in my book.

If it ever releases it will attract the right people, there's tons of old school guilds looking for a good game after Shadowbane crashed and burned (it is still the best PvP game with active population out there) and if the new generation of gamers is putting up with WAR fisher price O-RvR bullshit waiting for it to get fixed, i'm sure they can put up with FFA.

[Rendakor]

I agree with you guys that there is a market for an FFA PVP game. I just don't think Darkfall is going to satisfy that market in any way, shape or form.

[LC]

I agree with you guys that there is a market for an FFA PVP game. I just don't think Darkfall is going to satisfy that market in any way, shape or form.

It's likely that it will do more harm than good. Darkfall is going to be a huge pile of shit just like SB was. When it's cancelled, people will just assume that there's no market for these types of games.

[Von Douchemore]

I agree with you guys that there is a market for an FFA PVP game. I just don't think Darkfall is going to satisfy that market in any way, shape or form.

Darkfall is going to be a huge pile of shit just like SB was. When it's cancelled, people will just assume that there's no market for these types of games.

SB was never cancelled and at this moment has a bigger population than DAoC. OK, its free, but the dell ads pay the bills 

PS: Hater.

[Falconeer]

SB is a good game now. Too bad that now is Shadowbane's problem.

[Zzulo]

I wouldn't mind ads or even small 1min video commercials at startup for many MMO's if it meant no monthly fee

[HaemishM]

Say what you will about Darkfall, it'll have a large world

Bully for it. Unfortunately, history has shown that a large world in a PVP game is actually a bit of a detriment instead of a feature, because people don't like having to run 20 minutes to get into a fight that lasts for 2. Shit, in the small world that is Warhammer, the travel times from the PVE areas to the RVR lakes are a detriment, which is one reason the instanced, sport-PVP of scenarios was so popular. Shadowbane had a large (mostly empty) world, and its bugginess made coordinated PVP extremely frustrating because there was so much space between cities - nothing like herding 50 people across a 20 minute walk/summon chain when most of them CTD at least twice along the way, including the leader.

[schild]

Big worlds in general are highly overrated. A condensed smaller world filled out with content is far more compelling than a giant empty world. Even if the big world has more stuff than a smaller world, it takes more than just a "little bit more" to make it feel anything other than empty.

The "art" of world building needs to evolve.

[Lantyssa]

That it does.  I think Fallout 3 is my new standard for putting a bunch of things in a small area and keeping it interesting.  It's a design that would need to be tweaked for any multi-player game, but it's a good starting point.

[Von Douchemore]

Bully for it. Unfortunately, history has shown that a large world in a PVP game is actually a bit of a detriment instead of a feature, because people don't like having to run 20 minutes to get into a fight that lasts for 2. Shit, in the small world that is Warhammer, the travel times from the PVE areas to the RVR lakes are a detriment, which is one reason the instanced, sport-PVP of scenarios was so popular. Shadowbane had a large (mostly empty) world, and its bugginess made coordinated PVP extremely frustrating because there was so much space between cities - nothing like herding 50 people across a 20 minute walk/summon chain when most of them CTD at least twice along the way, including the leader.

AC had a large world and it was a clear feature, people made specific zones (usually delimited by the closest lifestone) their home and hanged out/defended it against intruders and people who tried to use that zone's best leveling spot. The size of the map gave everyone a chance to survive without getting steamrolled in every corner, some runs where epic (direlands) and you could make travelling easier with portal magic.

SB has runegates to speed the travelling process, and there are no "empty zones" every zone in between cities has a PvE area, its not barren. The issue in that case was the rampart sb.exe and client issues the game had, not the big world.

Edit: In the small world that is Warhammer, scenarios are popular because they are the fastest way to level solo and at 40 are the best way to gain renown rank, added to the fact that the post WoW generations are the majority and like that garbage. The runs between PvE and PvP zones are a joke, are you kidding me? Have you played WAR? Its one of the items in the pile of bad design, Keeps are not only meaningless, with a borked system but also turn into a graveyard run very often, you can rez and get back to the keep in less than 15 seconds in some areas.