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Author Topic: Korean WOW Arena Championship 2008  (Read 32323 times)
Xerapis
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on: February 27, 2008, 03:59:17 PM

On Saturday, 23 February 2008, Asian Correspondent Xerapis attended the competition between the final 8 teams of the Korean WOW Arena Championship 2008.  The event was held at the e-sports arena in the I Park Mall in downtown Seoul.

The final eight teams were:  RUN NANA (Priest Mage Rogue), ELUNE RUN (Rogue Warlock Druid), Dark horror arena (Shaman Warlock Mage), Mouse7 (Priest Mage Rogue), WIYH [Where Is Your Health] ( Rogue Rogue Priest), DER Tenacity (Priest Mage Rogue), BUKAE BRAVO (Priest Warrior Rogue), TEAM DRU (Rogue Druid Mage).  Each match-up was 2 out of 3 except for the final match which was 3 out of 5.

The first match was between RUN NANA (Priest Mage Rogue) and ELUNE RUN (Rogue Warlock Druid).  Round One took place in the Ring of Trials.  ELUNE RUN was focusing fire on RUN NANA's priest, but RUN NANA's rogue managed to jump ELUNE RUN's druid and teamed up with the mage to take the druid down.  Once their healer was out, RUN NANA just wiped up the warlock and rogue to win Round One.  Round Two was Ruins of Lordaeron.  ELUNE RUN focused on RUN NANA's priest while RUN NANA focused on ELUNE RUN's warlock.  Priest and warlock both dropped almost simultaneously.  RUN NANA's rogue was trying to take down ELUNE RUN's druid, leaving his own mage undefended.  ELUNE RUN's rogue took down the mage and then teamed up with the druid to gangbang the rogue and win Round Two.  Round Three was held in the Circle of Blood.  Both sides were focusing on the same primary targets as before, priest and warlock, when RUN NANA's rogue happened across ELUNE RUN's rogue and tried to jump him.  The tables were turned, and ELUNE RUN's rogue and warlock doubleteamed RUN NANA's rogue and took him down.  The priest and mage were then taken down in quick succession by ELUNE RUN's highly effective rogue/warlock duo.

The second match was between Dark horror arena (Shaman Warlock Mage) and Mouse7 (Priest Mage Rogue).  For some reason, all three rounds were held in the Ring of Trials.  Again you saw the same primary target choices in Round One, with Mouse7 going after Dark horror's warlock, and Dark horror going after Mouse7's priest.  Mouse7 successfully took down Dark horror's warlock, the mage quickly followed, and then they tripleteamed the poor shaman.  Round Two saw Dark horror manage to reverse things, with a lucky strike on Mouse7's mage that took him down and threw them off-balance.  The priest and rogue were taken down shortly after that, resulting in a Round Two win for Dark horror.  Mouse7 resurged in Round Three, going through Dark horror by the numbers, warlock, mage, shaman.

The third match was between WIYH (Rogue Rogue Priest) and DER Tenacity (Priest Mage Rogue).  DER Tenacity just ripped WIYH up in Round One, which was appropriately held in the Circle of Blood.  WIYH's double rogue team stood no chance against DER Tenacity's rogue mage combo.  Round Two took place in the Ring of Trials.  WIYH fared a little better in this match.  DER Tenacity took down rogue one and the priest, but sacrificed their mage to take out the priest.  It was all she wrote after that, as DER Tenacity's priest and rogue hunted down WIYH rogue two and annihilated him.  Solid win for DER Tenacity.

The fourth match was between BUKAE BRAVO (Priest Warrior Rogue) and TEAM DRU [full name is apparently Our TEAM DRU [short for druid] is hibernating (Rogue Druid Mage).  Sure enough, in the intro the druid was in bear form, sleeping.  TEAM DRU just overwhelmed BUKAE BRAVO in this match-up.  Round One was in Ruins of Lordaeron.  TEAM DRU focused their fire on BUKAE BRAVO's priest while BUKAE BRAVO was just all over the place.  Priest was taken down by a triple team, with the druid running in in bear form to swipe at the priest before the mage and rogue just ripped him up.  Warrior and rogue were then taken down in quick succession.  Round Two was held in the Ring of Trials.  TEAM DRU again focused on BUKAE BRAVO's priest, with the rogue jumping him before the mage joined up to wipe the floor with him.  TEAM DRU mixed things up a little by taking the rogue down next and then the warrior.  Overwhelming win for TEAM DRU.

With the first round of eliminations complete, the fifth match was between Mouse7 (Priest Mage Rogue) and ELUNE RUN (Rogue Warlock Druid).  Mouse7 attempted to focus fire on ELUNE RUN's warlock in Round One, which took place in the Ruins of Lordaeron.  ELUNE RUN managed to overwhelm Mouse7's priest with a warlock rogue doubleteam.  Once the priest was down, the rogue and mage quickly followed.  Round Two was also in the Ruins of Lordaeron.  Similar tactics on both sides, with the end result being almost exactly the same.  ELUNE RUN took down the priest first, then the mage and finally the rogue.  Clear wins for ELUNE RUN both times, as Mouse7 just couldn't take down the warlock with the druid supporting him.

The sixth match was between TEAM DRU (Rogue Druid Mage) and DER Tenacity (Priest Mage Rogue).  Round One was in the Ring of Trials, and TEAM DRU just ripped up DER Tenacity.  DER Tenacity couldn't seem to find their focus, while TEAM DRU just stayed on the priest until he was down, and then took out the mage and then rogue.  Round Two in the Ruins of Lordaeron was no better for DER Tenacity, as TEAM DRU again took the priest down first, then mopped up the rogue and then mage.  Strong win for TEAM DRU.

FINAL MATCH!  TEAM DRU (Rogue Druid Mage) versus ELUNE RUN (Rogue Warlock Druid).  Round One was in the Ring of Trials, and TEAM DRU started off strong by successfully focusing fire on ELUNE RUN's warlock and taking him out.  But they lost their mage shortly after downing the warlock, and then ELUNE RUN's rogue managed to jump TEAM DRU's druid.  Druid went down from the rogue druid double team, and ELUNE RUN cleaned up TEAM DRU's rogue for a first round win.  Round Two took place in the Circle of Blood and was much more straightforward.  ELUNE RUN protected their warlock better, and managed to win a rogue/rogue duel, taking down TEAM DRU's rogue.  ELUNE RUN then triple teamed TEAM DRU's druid, ripping him up and leaving the mage alone to be slaughtered at the end.  Round Three was held in the Ruins of Lordaeron.  This time both teams seemed a little scattered at first, focusing strictly on targets of opportunity until both druids were low on mana.  Then they both pounced on each other's druid.  Both druids went down almost simultaneously.  ELUNE RUN then focused on TEAM DRU's mage with their rogue and warlock and managed to take him out.  TEAM DRU's rogue fared a little better, managing to take out ELUNE RUN's rogue shortly after that.  Unfortunately, that still left the final battle between ELUNE RUN's warlock and TEAM DRU's rogue, which did NOT end well for the rogue.  ELUNE RUN wins the final championship.

I'd love to be able to provide some visuals, but am experiencing some technical difficulties (hence the delay in posting this story).  Unfortunately, we had to cut back on tech support here in the F13 Korean division in recent days.  If we manage to get it fixed, I'll be sure to upload them.

I don't think it was any coincidence that the two druid teams made it to the final, or that a druid warlock team was the final winner.  Also, note the complete absence of hunters (no surprise there) and paladins (a little more curious).

..I want to see gamma rays. I want to hear x-rays. I want to...smell dark matter...and feel the solar wind of a supernova flowing over me...
Nebu
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Reply #1 on: February 27, 2008, 04:06:32 PM

Force them to play in the arena with identical teams, identical builds, and no or identical gear.  That would make the outcome a tad more interesting. 

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Xerapis
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Reply #2 on: February 27, 2008, 04:51:25 PM

You can, but it doesn't exactly contribute anything to the conversation.

Nebu, what identical team would you propose?  As it was, it appeared that the mages were all frost, and the warlocks always used felhunters.  I couldn't spot much build variety.

..I want to see gamma rays. I want to hear x-rays. I want to...smell dark matter...and feel the solar wind of a supernova flowing over me...
Nebu
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Reply #3 on: February 27, 2008, 04:59:19 PM

Nebu, what identical team would you propose?  As it was, it appeared that the mages were all frost, and the warlocks always used felhunters.  I couldn't spot much build variety.

Team build is arbitrary to be honest.  What I'm getting at is that the only way this type of a situation would be even remotely interesting would be if skill determined the outcome rather than class/gear.  

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Xerapis
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Reply #4 on: February 27, 2008, 05:05:07 PM

I think they had full choice of any gear.  Either that or they are all crazy catass bitches.  One of the gnome rogues was definitely sporting dual warglaives.  So I don't believe that the gear limited their competition at all.

As far as class goes...well, I don't see a way around that really.  In 3 vs 3 you really end up with 1 healer and 2 dps.  How you decide on the dps composition is clearly up to the individual teams.  I'd rather see more class variety, not less.

Edit for K9:  My bad, I obviously wasn't aware of the stringent requirements to be e-sport-worthy.

Let's check out that FOTM thing by team composition:

Shaman      Warlock       Mage
Rogue        Priest          Mage
Rogue        Rogue         Priest
Priest         Mage           Rogue
Priest         Warrior        Rogue
Rogue        Druid           Mage
Priest          Mage          Rogue
Rogue         Warlock      Druid

Winners in first round of eliminations:  Rogue    Warlock    Druid
                                                     Rogue    Priest       Mage
                                                     Priest      Mage       Rogue
                                                     Rogue    Druid       Mage

Winners in second round of eliminations:  Druid Warlock Rogue
                                                         Mage  Rogue  Druid

Final Winner:  Druid Warlock Rogue

Most popular choice was Priest Mage Rogue, but none of them made it past the semifinals.  Out of the eight teams, only two had druids and only two had warlocks.  But it was the Druid Warlock Rogue combo that took the finals. 

So tell me, how is that FOTM?

Now, you can point out the disturbing lack of paladins and hunters, but that just shows that Koreans exclude two classes from tournament play.  It doesn't support FOTM.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2008, 06:57:15 PM by Xerapis »

..I want to see gamma rays. I want to hear x-rays. I want to...smell dark matter...and feel the solar wind of a supernova flowing over me...
Numtini
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Reply #5 on: February 27, 2008, 07:16:02 PM

I keep thinking, wouldn't it be funny to schedule this right after a patch and have blizzard lay down some lastminute insane nerfbomb on one of the classes.

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lamaros
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Reply #6 on: February 27, 2008, 07:19:49 PM

I personaly think variety is fun. Especialy when the results are that the most popular team combo gets smashed.

Expect poison from the standing water.
Xerapis
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Reply #7 on: February 27, 2008, 07:39:39 PM

Exactly!  When I saw the third Priest Mage Rogue team, I was thinking FUCK! If one of those teams wins the final it will be soooo disappointing.  But in spite of TRYING to pick the favorite combo, they still got spanked by something more original.  It was awesome.

..I want to see gamma rays. I want to hear x-rays. I want to...smell dark matter...and feel the solar wind of a supernova flowing over me...
lamaros
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Reply #8 on: February 27, 2008, 07:48:49 PM

Of course, every group bar one had a rogue in it. And the one without was a bit rubbish (only win was with a 'lucky strike'?).

Expect poison from the standing water.
Xerapis
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Reply #9 on: February 27, 2008, 07:51:31 PM

Yeah, the rogue love was a bit annoying.  But hey, at least it gives them something to do in the endgame now, since no one gives a fuck about rogues in raids.

..I want to see gamma rays. I want to hear x-rays. I want to...smell dark matter...and feel the solar wind of a supernova flowing over me...
Righ
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Reply #10 on: February 27, 2008, 08:19:19 PM

Resto druid & SL/SL lock? Say it ain't so. A bit surprised that they went rogue rather than warrior for a fixed team tournament, but looks like it worked.

The camera adds a thousand barrels. - Steven Colbert
Xerapis
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Reply #11 on: February 27, 2008, 09:05:47 PM

Well, the one team with a warrior was rather soundly spanked, so maybe warriors don't fare as well over here.

..I want to see gamma rays. I want to hear x-rays. I want to...smell dark matter...and feel the solar wind of a supernova flowing over me...
Nebu
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Reply #12 on: February 27, 2008, 09:15:22 PM

Let's check out that FOTM thing by team composition:

Shaman      Warlock       Mage
Rogue        Priest          Mage
Rogue        Rogue         Priest
Priest         Mage           Rogue
Priest         Warrior        Rogue
Rogue        Druid           Mage
Priest          Mage          Rogue
Rogue         Warlock      Druid

Winners in first round of eliminations:  Rogue    Warlock    Druid
                                                     Rogue    Priest       Mage
                                                     Priest      Mage       Rogue
                                                     Rogue    Druid       Mage

Winners in second round of eliminations:  Druid Warlock Rogue
                                                         Mage  Rogue  Druid

Final Winner:  Druid Warlock Rogue


Color me surprised.

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
squirrel
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Reply #13 on: February 27, 2008, 09:47:15 PM

I don't think it was any coincidence that the two druid teams made it to the final, or that a druid warlock team was the final winner.  Also, note the complete absence of hunters (no surprise there) and paladins (a little more curious).

Paladins are effective in the sub 1800 rankings, but over that arena play becomes a Druid, Warrior, Warlock, Rogue, Priest game afaik. Mage make the appearance provided they're deep frost.

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Xerapis
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Reply #14 on: February 27, 2008, 10:10:40 PM

Warrior was definitely getting the short end of the Korean stick then.  And yes, the mages were all deep frost.  Water elementals galore.  But hey, at least a shaman made a short-lived appearance  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?
« Last Edit: February 27, 2008, 10:16:40 PM by Xerapis »

..I want to see gamma rays. I want to hear x-rays. I want to...smell dark matter...and feel the solar wind of a supernova flowing over me...
lamaros
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Reply #15 on: February 28, 2008, 02:03:39 AM

Back in season one there were different FoTM combos, and come season 4, or WoTLK there will be other new ones.

Doesn't it change by patch and gear more than month?

If everyone has access to the same skill and gear then it is a level playing field. If people make the wrong choices then they're making the wrong choices, that's all. A meta-game has skill (if it is indeed a metagame and not just changes with patches or new gear).

Expect poison from the standing water.
K9
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Reply #16 on: February 28, 2008, 02:15:43 AM

Doesn't it change by patch and gear more than month?

If everyone has access to the same skill and gear then it is a level playing field. If people make the wrong choices then they're making the wrong choices, that's all. A meta-game has skill (if it is indeed a metagame and not just changes with patches or new gear).

It's pretty unpredictable in my experience. I don't think anyone foresaw how much being able to drink in arenas would make Druids so incredibly powerful for example; or how giving Hunters a truckload of buffs would make only a trivial difference to their representation in arena teams, but would see them roflstomping over the majority of other players in BGs, or how nerfing HARP would have next to no impact on the representation of rogues in 2s and 3s. 

The tournaments are a level playingfield within themselves, but as a reprentation of the game as a whole they are flawed. It would be like only permitting vegetarian sprinters to compete in the olympic 200m event. Between them its fair, but there's a lot of good runners who are not going to be able to compete, due to some choice they made.

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Reply #17 on: February 28, 2008, 02:43:56 AM

Winners in second round of eliminations:  Druid Warlock Rogue
                                                         Mage  Rogue  Druid

Final Winner:  Druid Warlock Rogue

Most popular choice was Priest Mage Rogue, but none of them made it past the semifinals.  Out of the eight teams, only two had druids and only two had warlocks.  But it was the Druid Warlock Rogue combo that took the finals. 

So tell me, how is that FOTM?

Now, you can point out the disturbing lack of paladins and hunters, but that just shows that Koreans exclude two classes from tournament play.  It doesn't support FOTM.


You didn't even need to list the final winner. The fact that is was PMR vs RWD is enough to know who was going to win. That's where it's not a level playing field. Combo X shits all over combo Y and that's your imbalance right there. The classes could be perfectly "balanced" in that they all have equal number of viable teams and power amongst the viable teams but when two teams face off one of them wins before anybody moves.
Xerapis
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Reply #18 on: February 28, 2008, 02:48:09 AM

In the first round of Rogue Warlock Druid versus Priest Mage Rogue, RWD got tore the fuck up.  Too bad PMR couldn't duplicate it later, but it isn't a guaranteed win.  They just didn't focus fire well on the druid after that.

..I want to see gamma rays. I want to hear x-rays. I want to...smell dark matter...and feel the solar wind of a supernova flowing over me...
Zetor
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WWW
Reply #19 on: February 28, 2008, 03:12:59 AM

I'm no arena wiz [highest I got was 1820ish], but one of the things that makes me say 'lolesports' is the nature of "countercomping" (ie. a combo having a massive advantage over another, and in turn being weak against another combo) which makes it look like the game is decided before it even starts, and it gets even worse when you add uneven gear and racials to the mix. Yes, in a competitive environment it's not as big a deal, since everyone can just pick the class/race/gear, but it does matter in normal play (undead rogue + undead mage have a good chance against warlock+holypriest.. troll rogue + troll mage are worse off; pallies in full tier6 pve gear can top up anyone with one fast-cast holy light; warglaives are warglaives, voidstar talismans are the only trinket making felguards viable in high-end games, etc). There is also exactly one viable spec for every class, maybe with minor variations (rogues are the ONLY exception here, and I'm not exaggerating... of the classes present in high-end 3v3 anyway).

The other big thing is the pure random nature of so many factors in a single game. Did that mage get lucky and proc frostbite on every frostbolt (~25% chance per bolt with icy veins up) causing him to burst the healer into oblivion with shatter combos? Did the priest get unlucky on the pain suppression and have it get dispelled even with 85% dispel resistance [65% from PS itself, 20% from another talent]? Did the warlock's focus-cast soulfire crit? How about 'well timed mace stuns' and 'well timed improved hamstring procs'?

Now, crits and such can be a pacing mechanism (though awkward), we've seen it in TF2 where it forces the enemy side to adapt (though a lot of people hate crits there too, for good reason). But entire abilities/talents (lightning overload being the most prominent one) being based on the random number generator only result in frustration for one side when they don't proc, and keyboard-breaking for the other when they do. Playing a series of games alleviates the 'random' thing somewhat, but there are entire team setups riding on the 'random burst damage' and gibbing someone in 5v5 [the 'most balanced' bracket].

Sure, 3v3 is the arena that suffers least from all this [probably the main reason why there aren't any 2v2 and few 5v5 tournaments] and has the highest number of viable combos, except for shamans and paladins; countercomps are also easy to 'adapt-to-on-the-fly' on a tournament if the team members are skilled at playing 2-3 classes each. But while I find it entertaining, I don't really think it'll ever be as competitive as an FPS or..... starcraft. :p


-- Z.

Xerapis
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Reply #20 on: February 28, 2008, 03:26:21 AM

Well, this is Korea.  NOTHING is as competitive as Starcraft.

..I want to see gamma rays. I want to hear x-rays. I want to...smell dark matter...and feel the solar wind of a supernova flowing over me...
Righ
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Reply #21 on: February 28, 2008, 09:16:33 AM

Blue name, IMO.

The camera adds a thousand barrels. - Steven Colbert
Hoax
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l33t kiddie


Reply #22 on: February 28, 2008, 11:10:42 AM

Blue name, IMO.

I'm getting kinda worried with how often I've agreed with you lately...


Thanks for the writeup Xerapis, looking forward to whatever image/video you can provide or link us to.  I can't even imagine why some people are still bent out of shape if WoW or whatever game is being played competitively at the e-sport level.  How can that possibly be a bad thing?  Also complaining about FOTM is stupid, metagaming is a part of almost EVERY fucking sport, its just super obvious in CCG's and a little less but quite obvious in a game like GW or WoW.  Guess what though?  Pro football?  Metagaming that even influences the college game if some experts who I've read are to be believed.  FFS what a stupid thing to whine about.

A nation consists of its laws. A nation does not consist of its situation at a given time. If an individual's morals are situational, then that individual is without morals. If a nation's laws are situational, that nation has no laws, and soon isn't a nation.
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Reply #23 on: February 28, 2008, 12:43:13 PM

Heh, I played a Hunter in WoW. But in big pvp battles, hunters were a lot of fun. Notice the large showing of rogues. Notice rogues in big pvp battles with giant arrows pointing out their position when stealthed :) Rogues HATED my hunter.

However, in small pvp, hunters are too dependent on the pet and die quickly.

schild
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WWW
Reply #24 on: February 28, 2008, 02:56:41 PM

This took way too long to notice. Good Coverage.
Cheddar
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Noob Sauce


Reply #25 on: February 28, 2008, 03:28:20 PM

Well, this is Korea.  NOTHING is as competitive as Starcraft.

You are blue! SPEECH! SPEECH!

No Nerf, but I put a link to this very thread and I said that you all can guarantee for my purity. I even mentioned your case, and see if they can take a look at your lawn from a Michigan perspective.
Xerapis
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Reply #26 on: February 28, 2008, 10:05:08 PM

At last my journey to the dark side is finally complete.  DRILLING AND MANLINESS

..I want to see gamma rays. I want to hear x-rays. I want to...smell dark matter...and feel the solar wind of a supernova flowing over me...
Cheddar
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Noob Sauce


Reply #27 on: February 28, 2008, 11:29:03 PM

At last my journey to the dark side is finally complete.  DRILLING AND MANLINESS

FYI- Stu and I got level 60 and our phat ass epic black wolves.  When you gonna join the cool kids?

No Nerf, but I put a link to this very thread and I said that you all can guarantee for my purity. I even mentioned your case, and see if they can take a look at your lawn from a Michigan perspective.
Xerapis
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Reply #28 on: February 28, 2008, 11:45:03 PM

Right after I stop having to work overtime  ACK!

..I want to see gamma rays. I want to hear x-rays. I want to...smell dark matter...and feel the solar wind of a supernova flowing over me...
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Error 404: Title not found.


Reply #29 on: February 29, 2008, 10:45:53 AM

Before I saw the outcome, I guessed the team with a warlock and rogue would win.

Shockingly, I was right. I do agree with the earlier comments that to make this about skill you need to play set matches with set classes and set gear. That would be skillful instead of a decent interpretation of a rock-paper-scissors fight.

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Hoax
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l33t kiddie


Reply #30 on: February 29, 2008, 11:51:10 AM

I still say you people saying that are idiots and ignore the fact that metagaming is a part of fucking every competition, including a boxing match.  In the lead up before a fight a fighter will often train focusing on things he thinks will work after studying his opponents past bouts as well as train to counter his perceived strengths.

That isn't exactly the same thing but I think you can see my point.  Bitching about this is pretty silly.

Btw, why weren't they doing 5v5?  I thought that was supposed to be the marquee competition format for arena?

PS Grats on the blue name Xerapis.

A nation consists of its laws. A nation does not consist of its situation at a given time. If an individual's morals are situational, then that individual is without morals. If a nation's laws are situational, that nation has no laws, and soon isn't a nation.
-William Gibson
caladein
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Reply #31 on: February 29, 2008, 01:55:30 PM

Btw, why weren't they doing 5v5?  I thought that was supposed to be the marquee competition format for arena?

Online it has been, but the only large (by virtue of size or prestige) LAN competition for 5v5 was the Blizzard tournament after Season 1.  Most of the LAN tournaments have been 3v3 since forever.

It just makes it easier to cut to the next smallest bracket size when you're organizing an event even if you've moving away from the marquee bracket (see: CPL and BF1942 12v12 vs. 8v8).

Even online though, Blizzard has moved to make 2v2/3v3 more competitive in terms of point-gain (and therefore participation) and I'm pretty sure their next tournament is a 3v3 event.
« Last Edit: February 29, 2008, 01:57:25 PM by caladein »

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Reply #32 on: February 29, 2008, 02:13:56 PM

I still say you people saying that are idiots and ignore the fact that metagaming is a part of fucking every competition, including a boxing match.  In the lead up before a fight a fighter will often train focusing on things he thinks will work after studying his opponents past bouts as well as train to counter his perceived strengths.

That isn't exactly the same thing but I think you can see my point.  Bitching about this is pretty silly.

Well, there are ways to beat warlocks and rogues, but it's far easier for certain classes, which is what bugs me, kind of.  I'm not uber in PvP, but I'm given to understand that rogues have a significant amount of trouble with warriors and paladins.  So, hypothetically, if the "Best PvP Team in Korea" had been up against a team that had a warrior in it, would they still have won?  And if not, what is the point in having a tournament like this?  I do kind of think the whole "rock paper scissors" argument has some weight to it, because it feels a lot like certain classes ARE overpowered versus certain other classes in small confrontations, and if the winning teams won largely based on the absence of rocks, why am I supposed to think it had anything to do with their skill in the game OR in any kind of metagaming sense?  It's not based on the winner's own skill (well, not totally), it's based largely on the guys who can rip them apart all getting eliminated before they have to fight them.  I don't see how that's metagaming, it seems more like random dumb luck to me (there's no way these guys could know, back when they first rolled their characters, the class makeup of the top ranked arena teams this season, or how the various buffs and rebalances would work out).

I do think it would be interesting to see something like, say, a 10v10 arena, where each team had one of each class (though I have no idea how to handle the insane queue times this would generate).  Then there wouldn't be any more of this "Well, they had a Warlock, of course they won" kind of complaining.  At the top levels of competition, everyone's already going to have roughly the same gear anyway, so I don't see that as an issue.   But in the smaller arenas, it just doesn't seem comparable to a fair competition.
« Last Edit: February 29, 2008, 02:16:09 PM by Kail »
kaid
Terracotta Army
Posts: 3112


Reply #33 on: February 29, 2008, 02:26:30 PM

Arena stuff is fun to play and seeing stuff like this is interesting but that kind of game play is just so different than the entire rest of the game some classes will shine in an arena setting and some will not. Some like paladins are not very good on 2v2 or 3v3 teams but shine on 5v5 others like druids shine on the small teams and suck on the bigger ones.

I just wish they would stop trying to balance the entire rest of the game around an arena whose mechanics have nothing in common with anything else. The game plays a lot differently when you have one life and no respawn and to balance to make people strong in that werid situation often times really screws things up for everything else. 
Hoax
Terracotta Army
Posts: 7670

l33t kiddie


Reply #34 on: February 29, 2008, 02:56:49 PM

Kail, I just dont get the complaint still in this setting.  If people want to say, "dude this sucks because X class is fotm and I don't have the time/willpower/unpoop'd sock required to level X class to 70 and gear one" fine.  I am a-motherfucking-ok with that complaint.  The real player complaint.  The fuck me grinding another class up because you made me useless in arena's blizzard.  That shit is perfectly sensible.   

But these types of comments:

"And if not, what is the point in having a tournament like this?"

"why am I supposed to think it had anything to do with their skill in the game OR in any kind of metagaming sense?  It's not based on the winner's own skill (well, not totally), it's based largely on the guys who can rip them apart all getting eliminated before they have to fight them."

"Shockingly, I was right. I do agree with the earlier comments that to make this about skill you need to play set matches with set classes and set gear. That would be skillful instead of a decent interpretation of a rock-paper-scissors fight."

"For me it's not a whine, it's just hard to take WoW as a credible competition of skill." [because rules change, like in say, the mf'ing NFL which he goes on to use as an example of somewhere that the rules never change to favor a type of player, team strat or position  rolleyes to K9's credit though, he makes the perfect point about diku, level grind, sport pvp's #1 drawback in the same paragraph, which I agree with 100%]

"It's just that WoW Arena tournaments inhenerently only showcase the skill of a biased subset of all the good PvPers and so for me aren't really worthy or representative of being called a sport."

"but one of the things that makes me say 'lolesports' is the nature of "countercomping" (ie. a combo having a massive advantage over another, and in turn being weak against another combo) which makes it look like the game is decided before it even starts, and it gets even worse when you add uneven gear and racials to the mix." [this one is priceless because he goes on to bitch about too many random factors -like procs- determining outcomes]

Anyways, I'm going to stop, pretty much everyone in this thread has posted some shit along those lines.

Basically, you are all to some degree or another, wrong.  Just wrong.  Please, go play some CCG tournaments.  Take the ultimate netdeck, tell me how you do.  Forget Nats or Worlds, tell me how you do at your local comic book store against the 12 year olds.  I fucking guarentee you the top arena teams could own your asses with whatever you consider the non optimal class combo.  Why is it always so painful for people to admit that some people have gotten better then them at a video game?  Why do other gamers constantly insist on not only pretending it doesn't take skill but if they admit that, its straight to the "omg no life, fatass virgin bitches" jokes.  This shit always amuses me to a point but then it just pisses me off.  I've played in some high level CCG competitions (got pwnt), I've played at table top tournaments and notsofriendlies in various systems though I never did attend a Grand Tournament and I've played in top tier fps (did ok) I've watched plenty of other shit including most of the matches from the eve alliance tournaments.  This shit isn't easy and I doubt very much most of us could do it, no matter what class/race/character/gear combo we were handed.

Please, just put down the haterade already.

*removed the hella extra lines that got into my post and added an r that was missing.*
« Last Edit: February 29, 2008, 05:25:38 PM by Hoax »

A nation consists of its laws. A nation does not consist of its situation at a given time. If an individual's morals are situational, then that individual is without morals. If a nation's laws are situational, that nation has no laws, and soon isn't a nation.
-William Gibson
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