Korean WOW Arena Championship 2008

[Kail]

Basically, you are all to some degree or another, wrong.  Just wrong.  Please, go play some CCG tournaments.  Take the ultimate netdeck, tell me how you do.  Forget Nats or Worlds, tell me how you do at your local comic book store against the 12 year olds.  I fucking guarentee you the top arena teams could own your asses with whatever you consider the non optimal class combo.  Why is it always so painful for people to admit that some people have gotten better then them at a video game?  Why do other games constantly insist on not only pretending it doesn't take skill but if they admit that, its straight to the "omg no life, fatass virgin bitches" jokes.  This shit always amuses me to a point but then it just pisses me off.  I've played in some high level CCG competitions (got pwnt), I've played at table top tournaments and notsofriendlies in various systems though I never did attend a Grand Tournament and I've played in top tier fps (did ok) I've watched plenty of other shit including most of the matches from the eve alliance tournaments.  This shit isn't easy and I doubt very much most of us could do it, no matter what class/race/character/gear combo we were handed.

I'm not saying they couldn't kick my ass personaly, they no doubt could.  I play a warrior, and I have no delusions that even if given equal gear, I could take the rogue on that team in a 1v1.  It wouldn't even be a contest; I'd be destroyed.  That's not the point.  The point is that a Rogue of skill level X could (all other things being equal) be beaten by, say, a Paladin of skill level X, yet we have here a "tournament" that somehow ranks  a Rogue as the best player in Korea who doesn't have to fight a Paladin to claim that title.  This isn't about ego, I get spanked enough every fucking day to remind me how non-uber I personally am at these games.  But not every class has an equal chance at killing every other class, the game is balanced along a "rock, paper, scissors" model... so what's the point in saying "scissors wins!" when rock was eliminated in round one versus the paper?

I mean, take Team Fortress 2 for example.  Right now, I would have no problem saying that a TF2 tournament would be a fair competition.  But say you change the rules, so that you can't change classes (or you can only change classes, say, once a month or so).  Now that would be annoying.  Pyros can completely own spies, and if your team is heavy on spies and theirs is heavy on pyros, your spies are effectively neutered.  So make a balanced team with some medics (or whatever) to counter the pyros, you suggest.  Okay, fine.  But say I change the rules again so that you can only have three players on a team.  Now suddenly we've got a problem, in that I can't just say "forward the pyro" when the spies start attacking, because I might not have a pyro.  Is this because of some tactical decision I made?  No, it's because I can only have three classes on the team, and I couldn't fit the counters for every enemy class, so I had to choose some that work fairly well together and pray that the enemy is not fielding the classes that counter mine.  That's what you've got with World of Warcraft's arena system.  It's got a lot of counters and a lot of strategy, but not all the counters are THERE in a 3v3 arena because you can't field all the people that have them.

I'm not denying that the guys who won that tournament are very good; they may well even be the best Druid, Warlock, and Rogue in Warcraft (in Korea at least).  But saying they're the best three players out of everybody in the game seems problematic in the face of the way the classes stack up against each other.

And I'm not seeing how CCGs are relevant to this, honsetly.  If your deck sucks, you can change it, right?  If there's some new counter or something, you can react to it, can't you?  And we're mainly talking about 1v1 competitions here, are we not?  I suppose if Magic were limiting deck sizes to ten cards and you're not allowed to change the makeup of your deck, or something, it would be comparable, but otherwise, I suspect we're arguing about different issues.  I'm not saying that these guys are fat loosers for wasting their time with WoW or something, I'm saying WoW arenas specifically (not CCGs or other video games or anything), are inherently not a fair competition.

[Hoax]

I agree with you, I'm pretty sure at least.  But I think you agreed with me first. 

If you are saying (and now it sounds like you are) that WoW arenas suck because if you rolled X class/race combo you can't be top tier because they have no place in top tier.  Yup.  That is pretty lame.  That's why games where you get a character and invest all sorts of time into him, his gear, his house, mounts, guild, IG-rep etc do not go well with sport pvp.  I've said this combination of Diku and sport pvp was lame from day 1 of the BG's. This is part of why, though I was even more concerned with the death of pvp for other reasons.

I can totally see that it would suck balls to be a pally and find out you can't partake of 3v3 Arena because thats not the right build according to the metagame.  I get that and I agree.  I hate sport pvp in games with worlds and characters, totally fucking hate it.  I have never had two max level characters in a diku.  Ever.  I don't think it will ever happen.  I hate doing the same quest twice, the same zone, the same progression, that shit sucks.  Even in CoX, I loved making the characters but playing the newb shit over with them made me sick.

But you are still willfully ignoring how metagaming is just part of the way shit works.  In high level TF2 there are team builds that work and those that do not.  While they aren't quite so fixed and they change from map to map, they are there.  Esp considering that 6v6 is what Cal league plays.  You can't just say "sure we'll run no soldiers because nobody wants to be one" thats not how shit works by a long stretch.  Sure nobody is unable to switch class, but if you think there are people who aren't playing what they consider to be the "most fun" class because its what the team needs?  I'd put money you are wrong.  Its just not as painful because nobody is rendering 1year+ /played useless but its still there.

*edited because I suck at posting, nothing changed but +10 to readers ability to understand wtf I am saying, I hope, prob not, because of the aforementioned sucking at posting*

[caladein]

You do have a definite meta-game stratification in 2v2/3v3 at sub-2000 ratings.  You either need to be able to out-play people or swap line-ups to get to a point where your counter(s) are not the dominant makeup in that level range.  That's just an effect of ELO-style ratings determining your likely opponents and a large player pool.

That said, the meta-game is something everyone needs to accept as "how shit is".  Every sort of competitive environment is going to force groups to adapt and thrive or become marginalized.  Just as hoax said, the relative time investment from "Paladins suck, I need to reroll" to "Prot Paladins suck, I need to respec and get new gear" to "Demos suck on this map, lemme switch to something else" is so large that it's bullshit for the most part.

That said, skill is so much of a bigger part of what your stable rating is than people would like to admit.  Simple.

[lamaros]

He trained more than me, is taller, and has faster reflexes! It's not a level playing field!

[Kail]

He trained more than me, is taller, and has faster reflexes! It's not a level playing field!

***PATCH 3.26 NOTES***

-The effect of training has been reduced. It now only generates a 5% chance to catch the ball.  We understand that some players invested some time acquiring this feat, but it was necessary to balance high level play.

-Blonde Hair has been fixed.  Players who have Blonde Hair can now shoot lightning at their opponents.

-Faster Reflexes ability has been removed.  It is now assumed that all players will have Faster Reflexes.

-The "Drunk" debuff has been retuned.  Players should now be able to play more effectively while drunk.

[aimlessgun]

First off thanks for the writeup.

Metagaming is definitely part of any sport. You study your opponents and what they are likely to do, and adjust accordingly. Easy parallels are MTG and other CCG's - you bring the best deck for that metagame, there is no 'best deck period'. This is another level of gameplay that is not negative: it adds another level of complexity to the sport.

In my experience countercomping in 3v3 is not as serious an issue as people make it out to be. In my experience with 3v3 (currently at 2400), only 10-20% of your matches are going to be based more on comp matchup than execution. Execution is very very important, and it is near impossible for both teams to play 'perfect' games where it comes down to comp.

The comments about random number generator determining outcomes do have some merit, though luck is a factor in many popular sports. IMO the only place where it is game-breakingly bad is 2v2 though. And everyone agrees that 2v2 is a joke of a bracket.

I'm surprised that so many people expected a Warlock to be in the winning team. I suppose the Korean metagame must be different and not be flooded with the double melee teams that are currently facerolling through warlocks in the US.

[Righ]

Dude, you're a warlock ... at 2400. And there are literally shittons of warlocks in the top tier of arena - its still more common than not. However, you are correct that several of the top ten (2400+) teams are double melee teams - its the single only way to counter the abundance of overpowered SL/SL lock based teams.

[Strazos]

People run teams made up of WL/WL/X ?

That's crazy if I am reading that right.

[Kail]

People run teams made up of WL/WL/X ?

That's crazy if I am reading that right.

I think SL/SL means a Warlock specced for Siphon Life and Soul Link, not two separate warlocks, if that's what you're referring to (if not, then I wear the Hat of Shame today).