Lack of tanks

[Phred]

I guess us "old time" horde raiders just don't understand why people seem to need threat meters because we all learned how to manage our aggro without having all this extra graphical math stuff getting in the way.

Also, it simplifies your life and gives you a good benchmark on who is being retarded in your raid as a leader.

I believe our leaders relied on target's target addons for that. It took forever for our raid leaders to remember to set the target for ktm when enough of us had it installed. Of course with Omen you don't have to rely on a raid leader to set target. I like omen, and ktm, but the fact is many guilds got along pretty well fine up to naxx without really using it.

[Phred]

double post sorry :(

[Venkman]

The reason people write such long epitaphs about leaving MMOs is because they want to keep having fun.

I know. This has been going on for years, at least as long as the time since I wrote my own at Crossroads of Britannia :) And I'm sure they were writing them in newsgroups prior and BBS's prior to that.

My point was that you had fun for a time. Blizzard doesn't claim anything. Players convince themselves repeating the same godblessed thing a hundred times a year is actually worth something. It's those same players that convince themselves something is worth time at all, and then by extension, cash instead of time. So blaming them for some faulty decision making in a game you willingly paid into for a far longer period than any other genre ever gets, well, it just seems silly.

I'm not condemning it. You've done more in WoW than most I know will ever see. And even at my just-about-Kara stage, I've done way too much to hit the Delete button on my Mage. But I've already left once, took a break, looked around, had some good times in things like Eve, LoTRO and a few betas, then went back to check it out. I've done that with a number of games. The games change, grow, all that thing. They're never finished by design so never finishable by players. So worth leaving and coming back to occasionally.

You may be done for good or just done for now. I just don't see how that's anything Blizzard did. Now, SOE, yea, they have a habit of finding ways to actively kick out players :)

Threat meters were required raiding tools in my guild from MC on

Yepper. Like Decursive was almost a requirement for MC itself (not the whole thing, just, err, two of the bosses I think it was). Some hardcore VoIP dedicated Raider will yell opposingly, something about having to practice, put in the time, strict training, that sort of thing. But in the end, these tools make it less likely people will make one wrong move that fucks up the cumulative invested time of 40 people. Basically, they're stress reducers, relatively speaking.

People running Naxx before I stepped foot in MC, well, I don't wanna hear it :)

[Fordel]

I want to say a couple of boss fights were actually built around the idea of everyone having decursive.

[Phunked]

The reason people write such long epitaphs about leaving MMOs is because they want to keep having fun.

I know. This has been going on for years, at least as long as the time since I wrote my own at Crossroads of Britannia :) And I'm sure they were writing them in newsgroups prior and BBS's prior to that.

My point was that you had fun for a time. Blizzard doesn't claim anything. Players convince themselves repeating the same godblessed thing a hundred times a year is actually worth something. It's those same players that convince themselves something is worth time at all, and then by extension, cash instead of time. So blaming them for some faulty decision making in a game you willingly paid into for a far longer period than any other genre ever gets, well, it just seems silly.

I'm not condemning it. You've done more in WoW than most I know will ever see. And even at my just-about-Kara stage, I've done way too much to hit the Delete button on my Mage. But I've already left once, took a break, looked around, had some good times in things like Eve, LoTRO and a few betas, then went back to check it out. I've done that with a number of games. The games change, grow, all that thing. They're never finished by design so never finishable by players. So worth leaving and coming back to occasionally.

You may be done for good or just done for now. I just don't see how that's anything Blizzard did. Now, SOE, yea, they have a habit of finding ways to actively kick out players :)

Threat meters were required raiding tools in my guild from MC on

Yepper. Like Decursive was almost a requirement for MC itself (not the whole thing, just, err, two of the bosses I think it was). Some hardcore VoIP dedicated Raider will yell opposingly, something about having to practice, put in the time, strict training, that sort of thing. But in the end, these tools make it less likely people will make one wrong move that fucks up the cumulative invested time of 40 people. Basically, they're stress reducers, relatively speaking.

People running Naxx before I stepped foot in MC, well, I don't wanna hear it :)

Decursive was a great tool. It simplified the monotonous and brain damaging role of a healer. Then they made fights like Chromagus in BWL and Noth in Naxx based around the assumption that everyone had decursive. Just like the latter fights were balanced around threat meters.

Trust me, threat meters are a GOOD THING. With them, your DPS can maximize their damage without going over (and causing a wipe from frontal cone attack number 4561) or going under (and causing a wipe because the boss hit the WTFPWN enrage timer). They are not stupid, not elitist and not superfluous. You are a better DPSer because you have and use a threat meter intelligently.  Just like boss mods and timers are extremely helpful. In fact, almost all bosses now are designed around you having timers and threat meters now. Blizzard assumes that you have and are using these things, otherwise the bosses would be too easy for people who did. That's pretty much the way the entire game is balanced. Assume that the players are pushing everything to the limit so that the 0.001% who actually do don't get bored. If it negatively impacts 80% of the rest, fuck them because in the end, the raider is king, amirite?

[Fabricated]

When I tank I pay attention to my TPS and it's really helpful for improving my threat generation, as my mage I don't pay attention to it really because I use Omen which gives you a big "STOP DPSING YOU RETARD" warning by making your screen pulse red. I love threat meters. I don't see a lot of reason to keep the thing on screen the whole time unless you're doing a retard watch and figuring out who keeps overaggroing and when.

I like how people complain about addons making the game stupid when the game is precisely so awesome to be because of the UI modification. I will never play another MMORPG unless it has as robust a system for UI modification as WoW.

[Morat20]

We required certain mods for raiding -- mostly bare bones stuff that WoW has since installed as part of the base UI, warning stuff for the various boss moves so the MT/Raid Leader didn't have to waste time yelling "Okay, back up now".

I never used a threat meter, but I raided with my Hunter. I kept target-of-target up and if it ever became me, I FD'd out or took the death if it resisted. I rarely pulled aggro though, because I (and the rest of our raid) were smart enough to handle the "Wait for the attack call" command. Our tank usually had a lot of aggro.

Now the PuGs I've five-manned with -- threat meters would come in handy there, simply because most PuG tanks aren't all that good at maintaining threat.

[caladein]

I kept target-of-target up and if it ever became me, I FD'd out or took the death if it resisted.

Funnily enough, that's one of the first things I have to beat out of new Hunters in the age of everyone dancing just under the big *Aggro Gain* bar. (If you FD, it'll head to next highest on raw threat, which likely won't be your tank if your DPS are doing their job...)

[Morat20]

Funnily enough, that's one of the first things I have to beat out of new Hunters in the age of everyone dancing just under the big *Aggro Gain* bar. (If you FD, it'll head to next highest on raw threat, which likely won't be your tank if your DPS are doing their job...)

Ah yes, what was the joke? "Feign Death Kills Priests"?

My take it on it -- and the take the groups/raids I'm in is that I'm only responsible for my own aggro, and since I don't have a big honkin' shield to hide behind, it's not worth the priest's mana to try to keep me alive when I have someone on me (this for bosses and such -- not your average trash). I'm not up to playing 3 second speed bump for a rampaging boss that's going to tear through my pitiful mail in about two hits -- mages can iceblock, priests can shield -- FD is all I have in terms of survival when the Big Bad comes knocking.

I don't get complaints on it, mostly because (at least in five mans) I'm very good at picking up stray trash with my pet (who, if I want, can snap aggro off of most of your average five-man tanks) and placing traps for stressed healers to hide behind. I find that makes your priests happy. "This ice trap is for YOU. You stand on it, and if something comes running at you, let it hit the trap". Saves wear and tear on the healers.

Raids are a bit different, of course, although I generally do see it as part of my job to help yank trash off the squishes -- especially the healers.

[Paelos]

Ok I'll put it this way. Maybe the raiding guilds didn't use threatmeters up until TBC was released. Do they use them now? Yeah, that's what I thought.

I won't be the first to say this expansion was inspired all the way up until the raiding game. My god the new leveling areas were the best I've seen. Things actually made linear sense with quests and items and tradeskills. The leveling wasn't hard from 60-70, the new zones looked great except for the "let's make everything the same color" decision in a few, and the kicker is that the xp was fantastic.

Then, they broke all the raiding gear up to that point with blues and greens.
And, they knocked down everything to 25 man content, while adding a ninth class to everyone.
And, they made it so you had to go through a weeklong 10 man to get to 25 man content.
And, they made the first boss of Gruul's Lair harder than Gruul.
And, they made it so you had to have ridiculous amounts of potions just to get by.
And, they gave DPS insane gains.
And, they made warlocks the best goddamn solo class in the game.
And, they fucked hunters.
And, they made is so melee dps ate shit weekly on raids.
And, they DIDN'T SCALE THREAT FOR WARRIOR TANKS.

A lot of those things got nerfed out. A lot more will be nerfed out or fixed later, but until they address them it's a wash on the greatness of the leveling side. That lasts 1-4 months. The endgame is much much longer.

[Merusk]

I kept target-of-target up and if it ever became me, I FD'd out or took the death if it resisted.

Funnily enough, that's one of the first things I have to beat out of new Hunters in the age of everyone dancing just under the big *Aggro Gain* bar. (If you FD, it'll head to next highest on raw threat, which likely won't be your tank if your DPS are doing their job...)

They're idiots for even letting it get that high in the first place. The last thing you want to beat out of them is using their aggro-wipe, since if they're anywhere near decent at DPS they'll hit top spot quickly.  Instead tell them to Feign 20-30s into the fight and every minute after that. (Or every 30s if they're getting "resist" problems.)  A rotation to have every hunter misdirect to the tank (or two hunters to the tank and offtank for things like Gruul and Void Reaver) every time it's up.  Makes everyone's lives MUCH simpler.   

As to using meters before TBC, plenty used them.  Who the fuck do you think wrote KTM in the first place? Some random idiot who was having problems in a PUG? No.   Instead we're getting forum dick-waving here that's pretty pathetic.  Everyone used some kind of mod, from lazy emergency-monitor-spam healers, to decursive happy pallies and mages to threat meters.  If not, then there were an amazing number of downloads for 'nobody' using them back then.

[Xanthippe]

I'm finding this thread fascinating, because I've not yet played any tank class (my 19 bg warrior doesn't count).  I haven't raided since pre-TBC, and didn't do much then; I saw MC and BWL.  I didn't even know there exist such a thing as threat meters.  Handy!

The part about warrior dps not scaling cracks me up - I believe you guys, but really, warriors in the battlegrounds (who don't appear to be tanks, given their huge 2handed weapons) seem to do plenty of dps combined with stuns and many ways to prevent me from doing ANYthing before I'm dead. 

I know you're talking pve, which is a different thing entirely. But for pvp, warriors are OP, and this is coming from a lock. 

The game to 70 and the game at 70 are completely different.  I was very struck by this yesterday, when I played my daughter's hunter from 40 to 42 - wow, is she powerful!  Wow, is her pet powerful!  Elites?  No problem!  My hunter at 40 was not nearly so strong almost 3 years ago.  And I recall my warlock a lot more powerful pre-70 vs. other pre-70s than now vs. geared 70s.

Derailing from warriors and their problems for a second - can someone please explain to me how pallys and druids can be more effective tanks in 5mans than warriors?

[Venkman]

I agree. Think I said before too, but I love the education from this thread.

Threat Meters
I was recommended Omen. That good enough or is there better?

Threat wipes
I was just told last night that Mage Invisibility also wipes aggro. I did not know this. Too much soloing in BC. Can someone confirm this?

[ShenMolo]

Derailing from warriors and their problems for a second - can someone please explain to me how pallys and druids can be more effective tanks in 5mans than warriors?

One reason is that both classes have better AoE aggro-gaining abilities than warriors. Conventional wisdom holds that Warriors are the best single target tanks (re: raid bosses), while Pallies and Druids are both better than warriors at establishing threat on multiple targets (re: 5 man runs). Also remember that Paladins begin each fight with a full "rage" (mana) bar, and that with their reactive damage abilities/spells Protection Paladins are constantly generating threat as they get hit.

[Xanthippe]

Correct me if I'm wrong please.

Warriors have no multi-mob taunt.

They have to cycle through enemies using the TAB key.  There is no set function to make say, F1 through F5 be the nearest enemy, the next nearest enemy and so on, the way healers can hit F1 through F5 for party members.

That totally sucks.

[Merusk]

I agree. Think I said before too, but I love the education from this thread.

Threat Meters
I was recommended Omen. That good enough or is there better?

Threat wipes
I was just told last night that Mage Invisibility also wipes aggro. I did not know this. Too much soloing in BC. Can someone confirm this?

Omen is currently the "king" of the meters.  It doesn't need to be reset for each mob, AND it tracks multiple mobs.  KTM/KLH only tracks aggro per-fight.  So while you may be over the top on the KTM meter after the 3rd mob in a multi-mob pull, you're probably still below the tank.

Invisibilty was a change after BC went live, IIRC.  Yes, it completly wipes aggro for mages now.   As of right now the ONLY pure DPS class that doesn't have a complete aggro wipe as a base ability is a 'Lock.   (Yes, druids, shadow priests, and shaman I know you don't have any but you're not pure dps class.  I'm not saying you don't need it, though.)

Correct me if I'm wrong please.

Warriors have no multi-mob taunt.

They have to cycle through enemies using the TAB key.  There is no set function to make say, F1 through F5 be the nearest enemy, the next nearest enemy and so on, the way healers can hit F1 through F5 for party members.

That totally sucks.

 You're both right and wrong.  They have ONE multi-mob taunt, but it caps at like 4 mobs and it's on a multi-minute cooldown. (I think it's 5min.)  Yes, it sucks.  Yes, they have to tab through enemies making sure to get a sunder/ hit on them to keep their attention.  Yes, it TOTALLY sucks.  It's why I stopped tanking as a warrior, despite my traditional love for the class.  I just wasn't any good at tanking that way, and I'm not ashamed to admit it.  (Fuck I know plenty who suck at it but insist they're great and keep on trying.)

 Tanking as a Pally, on the other hand, is so easy it almost feels exploitive at times.   I can't imagine even trying to tank Shattered Halls with a warrior and not having the instance take forever.  It takes me roughly 1 1/2 hours on my paladin with a good healer, because I can just aggro whole rooms and tank them.  Heals keep my mana up so I can keep on spamming concecrate and holy shield.  Aggro on the first mob or two MIGHT be tricky, but after that they've all done so much holy damage to themselves while beating on me they're not going to get pulled-off.

[Mazakiel]

While warlocks don't have a complete aggro wipe, soulshatter cuts the threat they've generated so far in half.  So, as long as you don't go all out in the very beginning, with some attention paid to your position in regards to the tank, you can manage aggro pretty easily.  It's also a great "Oh shit!" button, as it's an immediate aggro dump and it rarely gets resisted.  Mage invis, however, has to fade you into invis all the way to get the aggro wipe, else you get little help from it.  Which doesn't do you much good if you crit yourself ahead of the tank's threat.  As I am informed at least, I've yet to level a mage that high.  As my gear's improved, I've actually had to start watching where I am on the threat meter, and also use soulshatter alot more. 

As to paladin tanks, some of my best PUG runs ever were done with a pally tank.  We did Shattered Halls in maybe 45 minutes with a pally tank and lots of AoE.  It's awesome to watch them get to do their thing.  Unfortunately, everyone I know who has a paladin has respec'd holy for raiding.  Noone wants them to tank, really, past 5 mans. 

[jpark]

Correct me if I'm wrong please.

Warriors have no multi-mob taunt.

They have to cycle through enemies using the TAB key.  There is no set function to make say, F1 through F5 be the nearest enemy, the next nearest enemy and so on, the way healers can hit F1 through F5 for party members.

That totally sucks.

Adding to Merusk's point:

Advanced warrior dancing involves the same dance BUT - there is one CC target in there (shackle etc.) so you have to be careful your TAB does not hit this CC target (for 5 mans you would AoE and pass on any CC - but in Kara - you might have a few elites with shackle - and then a bunch of minions that need to be danced with).  There is a macro out there - which I forget - that allows you to TAB without accidentally targeting a CCed target.

In 5 mans this dancing - for PUGS - does not normally work.  Guys just pour on the dps at the outset of combat - so you no sooner get 1 or 2 targets under control - before working on the 3rd - before losing control of the first two.

In the end - warriors are responsible for party discipline.  And you re-live that experience every time you do a fucking pug.

[Jayce]

Threat wipes
I was just told last night that Mage Invisibility also wipes aggro. I did not know this. Too much soloing in BC. Can someone confirm this?

It's the only aggro wipe for mages. Contrary to popular belief, ice block does not wipe threat.  It just causes mobs to attack the second person on the threat list until you become vulnerable again.  Often, by that time, you've been bypassed on the list.  But if you were to break out as soon as you went it they'd come after you again.

[Xanthippe]

What about invisibility potions?  Do these also dump aggro?

[Dren]

While warlocks don't have a complete aggro wipe, soulshatter cuts the threat they've generated so far in half.  So, as long as you don't go all out in the very beginning, with some attention paid to your position in regards to the tank, you can manage aggro pretty easily.  It's also a great "Oh shit!" button, as it's an immediate aggro dump and it rarely gets resisted.  Mage invis, however, has to fade you into invis all the way to get the aggro wipe, else you get little help from it.  Which doesn't do you much good if you crit yourself ahead of the tank's threat.  As I am informed at least, I've yet to level a mage that high.  As my gear's improved, I've actually had to start watching where I am on the threat meter, and also use soulshatter alot more. 

As to paladin tanks, some of my best PUG runs ever were done with a pally tank.  We did Shattered Halls in maybe 45 minutes with a pally tank and lots of AoE.  It's awesome to watch them get to do their thing.  Unfortunately, everyone I know who has a paladin has respec'd holy for raiding.  Noone wants them to tank, really, past 5 mans. 

The nice thing about the Lock agro dump is that is has an area affect too.  I use it sometimes to help get agro off of the other ranged DPS'ers in the group.  It basically helps keep agro down for the backline members.  You just have to remember to watch your soulshard inventory as it uses one per.

[Fordel]

What about invisibility potions?  Do these also dump aggro?

No, they aren't agro dumps. I am not even certain you can use them in combat. They were almost exclusively used by non-stealth smiths to reach the Dark Iron Forge in BRD. I'm certain if they were an agro dump, raiders would be buying them up by the truck load.

This: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=22871 will reduce agro though.

[Salamok]

The part about warrior dps threat not scaling cracks me up - I believe you guys, but really, warriors in the battlegrounds (who don't appear to be tanks, given their huge 2handed weapons) seem to do plenty of dps combined with stuns and many ways to prevent me from doing ANYthing before I'm dead. 

It's about threat not scaling not dps (dps is a factor of that but not the only factor).

Correct me if I'm wrong please.

Warriors have no multi-mob taunt.

They have to cycle through enemies using the TAB key.  There is no set function to make say, F1 through F5 be the nearest enemy, the next nearest enemy and so on, the way healers can hit F1 through F5 for party members.

Improved Thunderclap was upped enough in threat so that it is considered about the same as a sunder on 4 mobs.  Unfortunately it also breaks CC so groups need to retrain themselves to pull the mobsout of range of CC'd stuff.  Unfortunately there are so many non warriors out there that seem to "know everything about tanking" that it makes it next to impossable to form a PUG and deviate from some nontanks ideas on tanking.  So the TC changes sort of work but groups are unwilling to change playstyle to account for the changes.  

Tanking as a Pally, on the other hand, is so easy it almost feels exploitive at times.   I can't imagine even trying to tank Shattered Halls with a warrior and not having the instance take forever.  It takes me roughly 1 1/2 hours on my paladin with a good healer, because I can just aggro whole rooms and tank them.  Heals keep my mana up so I can keep on spamming concecrate and holy shield.  Aggro on the first mob or two MIGHT be tricky, but after that they've all done so much holy damage to themselves while beating on me they're not going to get pulled-off.

The ability for a pally to aggro unlimited #'s of mobs w/o breaking CC as long as their mana holds out is sick.  

[Fordel]

How is a pally not breaking CC when a warrior is?

Consecrate breaks sheep just as well as Thunderclap.

[Salamok]

How is a pally not breaking CC when a warrior is?

Consecrate breaks sheep just as well as Thunderclap.

I thought they could generate some decent aggro through healing as well.

[Threash]

Not really.  And they can't tank while healing.

[Salamok]

Not really.  And they can't tank while healing.

my bad then, my pally tanking knowledge is scarce as I don't think there were many competent level 70 horde pally tanks at the time I quit.  I just remember seeing alot of posts saying they were the best tanks when it came to aggroing large numbers of mobs.

[Threash]

Well yeah they are great at aggroing great numbers of mobs, but it has more to do with their captain america shield that gives them a lot of initial aggro + consecration + holy shield that returns damage to the mobs hitting them.  You can't block attacks while healing and pali tanking revolves around blocking basically.

[Fordel]

Pally heals are in fact, the least threatening of all the healing classes, but a huge margin.



Pally's are the best at AE tanking due to HolyShield and Consecrate. Mostly Consecrate.

Unlike Thunderclap or Swipe, Consecrate has no target cap. It also scales up with spell damage, like all pally threat.

A decently geared pally tank, makes a non-heroic 5man pretty much 'EZ-Mode'. As long as your healer can keep you up, you don't need CC and your DPS can pretty much go nuts and cut loose. The more things beating on a Prot Pally, the better it works. It's why pally's have an easier time in SH then warriors/druids. A dungeon full of mostly melee mobs in manageable packs with plenty of LoS walls to bring in the few casters? Sign me up. You almost never have to worry about 'strays' peeling off onto your healers/dps as a pally tank and you are almost never 'over geared' like the rage tanks.


The downside is Prot Pallies have to jump through all kinds of gear hoops to tank heroics/raids. There isn't much actual prot pally specific gear outside of the tier sets, and you need to reach a unusually high base avoidance level to be uncrushable, and your mitigation and HP will be lower in the end regardless (though they are fixing some of that with the new patch changes).

[Phred]

Not really.  And they can't tank while healing.

In late beta almost all threat was taken off pally heals. It just has enough to pull a unagro'd mob onto the pally now. It's not that hard to heal in combat with the 70% non interuption talent though, or it didnt seem to be back when I played my pally seriously.

[Threash]

Not really.  And they can't tank while healing.

In late beta almost all threat was taken off pally heals. It just has enough to pull a unagro'd mob onto the pally now. It's not that hard to heal in combat with the 70% non interuption talent though, or it didnt seem to be back when I played my pally seriously.

You can heal while being beat on, but you cant block while casting a heal, hence the "they can't tank while healing" comment.

[Phred]

I'm finding this thread fascinating, because I've not yet played any tank class (my 19 bg warrior doesn't count).  I haven't raided since pre-TBC, and didn't do much then; I saw MC and BWL.  I didn't even know there exist such a thing as threat meters.  Handy!

The part about warrior dps not scaling cracks me up - I believe you guys, but really, warriors in the battlegrounds (who don't appear to be tanks, given their huge 2handed weapons) seem to do plenty of dps combined with stuns and many ways to prevent me from doing ANYthing before I'm dead. 

I know you're talking pve, which is a different thing entirely. But for pvp, warriors are OP, and this is coming from a lock. 

This is exactly the kind of muddied thinking that keeps the present status quo going."Oh, they are overpowered in PvP, they don't need any buffs to skills which would have no damn effect in PvP in the slightest." you see this form of argument daily in the WoW forums.

I've been working on honor hold faction lately and the difference between a Warrior tanking and a protection paladin tanking it is night and day. Half the warrior tank groups I've done in there break up and disband around the 7 pull just before the sewers while prot pally groups say fuck crowd control and zip on through. Unless the warrior is really fucking good I  may just start quitting groups for shattered halls before I waste any more time there with war tanks.

[Paelos]

Increasing base warrior threat on abilities has no effect on pvp.
Giving warriors a better aoe taunt/aggro ability has no effect on pvp.

And yet, here we are.

[Dren]

Having had my turn at trying to tank with a Pally the only drawbacks I saw was:

- Can't limit your agro very well or easily anyway.  It is either go all out with lots of mobs or pull way way back and slow your progress down considerably.  Consecrate and the shield toss will pick up anything close by.

- Can't pull groups very well at all.  The boomerang trinket works ok, but you lose a trinket spot for any good stats for it and it has a long cooldown.  The shield toss can be used, but again, it agros everything in a wide swath.  That should be ok if you have good CC, but many times you don't need it.  It is just annoying, not game crushing.

- The equipment thing.  Somebody already mentioned it.  You can find tons of strictly tank plate everywhere.  You can't find any good Pally Tank gear very often.  You basically have to sacrifice Int and that really hurts your time between sitting.  Although there are some blessings, etc. that will help with this too.

- We are squishier than Warrior Tanks.  You have to have a really good healer to stay on top of heals or you'll go down fast.  No matter how we spec or gear up, we are nowhere near the stam, hp, defense level of Warriors.  This makes for lots of drinking on the Pirest/Druid/Healadin's part.

- We don't have much DPS.  You have to balance this with other dps chars in the group.  Not a big deal but can be a pain.

I gave up on tanking with my paladin mainly for the equipment reason.  I'm purely a healadin now because that gear is very easy to come by and I can help my guild out more this way.  We are short on healers.  Tanks are short too, but that's what my druid will be doing once I get him to the appropriate level.

[Fordel]

Warrior's don't get much wiggle room when they are on the top end of both PvP and PvE though, despite difficulties in the non-heroic 5 man's (and really, only when your DPS are over geared and/or cock mongers) they are still the default tank in all other aspects.

- Can't pull groups very well at all.  The boomerang trinket works ok, but you lose a trinket spot for any good stats for it and it has a long cooldown.  The shield toss can be used, but again, it agros everything in a wide swath.  That should be ok if you have good CC, but many times you don't need it.  It is just annoying, not game crushing.

Only for Goblin Engineers but http://www.wowhead.com/?item=23836 is way better then the boomerang  :-D