Lack of tanks

[Phunked]

Are you even considering Healing Aggro ?  Because it seems to me you're not.

Thunderclap is enough to over come healing agro in most situations. There are few pulls where you get more than 4 mobs, and since healing agro is split between them all, rotating through with sunder/shield slam/whatever and keeping up thunderclap will hold agro in 99% of the cases. Before thunderclap was added to defensive, this was substantially harder, yes. However they realized their error and fixed it.

Combine that with good use of intervene and healing agro is usually not a problem. Note, this does not apply to situations clearly meant for AoE. For example, no you won't hold agro on the packs of flayer things (before and after the second boss. The ones with the elf using AE or Blizzard) in Botanica. There you're meant to hold the elite, while some AoE class clears those.

But for most other situations, healing agro can be managed appropriately.

[Fabricated]

I don't think pallies and druids are better tanks overall than warriors because warriors simply get much better itemization for pure mitigation and have far better single-target threat generation. However, our multitarget tanking abilities suck some shit even after getting thunderclap. I love having a prot-pally or a bear tank as my OT in Kara, because they're just way more versatile, but for anything that hits extremely hard I'm the guy who ends up standing in front of it because I have far more chance of simply not being hit.

Getting geared for raiding fucking sucks if you're not kinda lucky. It's expensive and a pain in the ass to get over 490 defense and 12000 HP unbuffed in blues. Not all of us really feel like grinding that bullshit Netherwing trinket or paying through the nose for a darkmoon deck. I also think that warriors are just expected to do better for some reason. I'm at 11700ish HP unbuffed and 498 Defense at the moment, with okay dodge/parry/block %. I was tanking a Heroic mech run and I just could not keep ahead of this fucking warlock in the pug. He bailed halfway in saying I wasn't "geared enough". Seriously, what the fuck, how about not spamming your more threat-intensive spells while there's no pally or shammy in the group to cover your ass?

[Ironwood]

Thunderclap ?

Are you serious ?

What kind of Nuclear Fart Thunderclap are you managing ??

Sure, I actually USE it (combined with Piercing Howl and Demoralizing Shout) to keep them stuck to me and, if that fails, not moving very fast, but I'm seriously skeptical that you're going into Illidan and keeping healing aggro control using Thunderclap.

Personally, a Prot Talent that added threat to Cleave would have been fucking helpful.  Sundering Cleave.  That's the ticket.

[Phunked]

I don't think pallies and druids are better tanks overall than warriors because warriors simply get much better itemization for pure mitigation and have far better single-target threat generation. However, our multitarget tanking abilities suck some shit even after getting thunderclap. I love having a prot-pally or a bear tank as my OT in Kara, because they're just way more versatile, but for anything that hits extremely hard I'm the guy who ends up standing in front of it because I have far more chance of simply not being hit.

Getting geared for raiding fucking sucks if you're not kinda lucky. It's expensive and a pain in the ass to get over 490 defense and 12000 HP unbuffed in blues. Not all of us really feel like grinding that bullshit Netherwing trinket or paying through the nose for a darkmoon deck. I also think that warriors are just expected to do better for some reason. I'm at 11700ish HP unbuffed and 498 Defense at the moment, with okay dodge/parry/block %. I was tanking a Heroic mech run and I just could not keep ahead of this fucking warlock in the pug. He bailed halfway in saying I wasn't "geared enough". Seriously, what the fuck, how about not spamming your more threat-intensive spells while there's no pally or shammy in the group to cover your ass?

Okay now see that's not a problem with the game. Contrary to popular belief, in a situation like heroic Mech, where most of the tanking is on single targets, a Prot Pally or Feral druid does not generate that much more threat (in fact, paladins and druids tend to be worse in single target threat generation at that gear level). The major problem there is that the guy is an idiot and doesn't know how to hold back, not that your gear level is too low.

I assure you that if you took any warrior/pally tank in any possible gear set up that they could not keep agro over any DPS class going all out in a 5 man situation. Maybe a druid in T5 tanking an T6 accessories (T6 tanking provides too much mitigation for rage gain). But that's a useless artificial scenario. The game is designed so that DPS classes HAVE TO HOLD BACK. Otherwise DPS would be the most mindless job ever.

edit: to spell gud

[Dren]

I've noticed a severe lack of warrior tanks in our guild.  We have one.  Just one.  He is the alpha and the omega of doing Karaz runs.  It drives me nuts because we have a few other warriors (just a few,) and they are not tank specced at all, nor do they ever want to tank.

My far off goal is to level up a warrior to help, but like sombody else said (Ironwood or Paelos, not sure,) I'm sure I'm way over my head there.  Leveling up to 70 will be just fine I'm sure.  I'll twink like a billionare gold seller, but once I get there, the task of getting good items, rep, heroics, and just learning to tank correctly may be more than I can handle along with all my other alts and interests.

I just recently went back to my Paladin for my main just so we'd have a consistent healer for raids.  Yes, I am playing a Holy Paladin that is geared just for healing and he kicks ass at it.  In groups = awesome.  Outside of groups = painfully slow!

Anyway, that's just how far I'll go to "take one for the team."

[Phunked]

Thunderclap ?

Are you serious ?

What kind of Nuclear Fart Thunderclap are you managing ??

Sure, I actually USE it (combined with Piercing Howl and Demoralizing Shout) to keep them stuck to me and, if that fails, not moving very fast, but I'm seriously skeptical that you're going into Illidan and keeping healing aggro control using Thunderclap.

Personally, a Prot Talent that added threat to Cleave would have been fucking helpful.  Sundering Cleave.  That's the ticket.

Illidan is a single target. No I do not use thunderclap at all on a single target (my OT keeps up imp. thunderclap).

In 5 mans, if you take imp. clap (can't see why you wouldn't) it does ~350-400 threat per target hit every 6 seconds. Assuming you're being hit by enough targets where its necessary (3 or more) you have the rage to use it every cooldown. Combine this with your normal threat abilities and focused DPS and healing agro should not seriously be an issue. For two targets, cleave is just fine(it's not bad threat actually, and doesn't take a global cooldown), along with some tabing between targets and the occasional taunt. For more than 5 targets, yeah you need CC or something. Besides 2 pulls in SH, how often are you tanking more than 5 targets? Even then, with focused DPS it is entirely possible, although you might need to intervene a couple times.

Imp. thunderclap is a staple 5 man tanking skill.

[Fabricated]

I've noticed a severe lack of warrior tanks in our guild.  We have one.  Just one.  He is the alpha and the omega of doing Karaz runs.  It drives me nuts because we have a few other warriors (just a few,) and they are not tank specced at all, nor do they ever want to tank.

My far off goal is to level up a warrior to help, but like sombody else said (Ironwood or Paelos, not sure,) I'm sure I'm way over my head there.  Leveling up to 70 will be just fine I'm sure.  I'll twink like a billionare gold seller, but once I get there, the task of getting good items, rep, heroics, and just learning to tank correctly may be more than I can handle along with all my other alts and interests.

I just recently went back to my Paladin for my main just so we'd have a consistent healer for raids.  Yes, I am playing a Holy Paladin that is geared just for healing and he kicks ass at it.  In groups = awesome.  Outside of groups = painfully slow!

Anyway, that's just how far I'll go to "take one for the team."

I think tanking is pretty fun as long as your groupmates aren't utterly incompetent, and it's miserable if they are because in the end you get blamed for not holding aggro. The gear part isn't nearly as bad as it used to be...there's tons of great tank gear out of instances, but if you're one of those poor bastards cursed for drops, you'll be doing a LOT of runs. The good news is that even then the game can't deny you some good gear because of rep rewards. At the very least you can get one of the best epic shields in the game (Crest of the Sha'Tar) and the best blue quality tank legs in the game (Timewarden's Leggings).

After that though, it's rough.

[Phunked]

I think tanking is pretty fun as long as your groupmates aren't utterly incompetent, and it's miserable if they aren't because in the end you get blamed for not holding aggro.

That.

[Ironwood]

Knock Yourself Out


No idea why my shoulders ain't there.  Heh.

In fairness, I did understand your previous post, I just really, really think you underestimate the amount of target cycling that has to be done and how unfun MOST OTHER people find it.  There aren't that many classes that need to and, in the case of healers, there are UI components that help them to do so !

Why, for example, are tanks never able to have a tanking table like healers with f1-f5 for the different targets in the default UI ?

Seriously, Prot Tank For Life and I'm telling you, I understand entirely why it's now considered deeply unfun.

[Dren]

I don't think pallies and druids are better tanks overall than warriors because warriors simply get much better itemization for pure mitigation and have far better single-target threat generation. However, our multitarget tanking abilities suck some shit even after getting thunderclap. I love having a prot-pally or a bear tank as my OT in Kara, because they're just way more versatile, but for anything that hits extremely hard I'm the guy who ends up standing in front of it because I have far more chance of simply not being hit.

Getting geared for raiding fucking sucks if you're not kinda lucky. It's expensive and a pain in the ass to get over 490 defense and 12000 HP unbuffed in blues. Not all of us really feel like grinding that bullshit Netherwing trinket or paying through the nose for a darkmoon deck. I also think that warriors are just expected to do better for some reason. I'm at 11700ish HP unbuffed and 498 Defense at the moment, with okay dodge/parry/block %. I was tanking a Heroic mech run and I just could not keep ahead of this fucking warlock in the pug. He bailed halfway in saying I wasn't "geared enough". Seriously, what the fuck, how about not spamming your more threat-intensive spells while there's no pally or shammy in the group to cover your ass?

Warlock is my choice for DPS in groups and, well, solo too.  So so versatile.  Everytime I'm solo'ing/farming with mine I get calls to help with an instance or group.  The other day I got called into a PUG to take down Ruul in SMV.  The enitire time we fought him, I had to keep holding back because I was watching the threat meter and was right behind the tank.  I was able to throttle my output to make sure Ruul didn't come after me, because that's not a good thing.  It is easy with a warlock.  Just stop doing direct attacks and let your DOTs tick.

This was all with a mage in the group too.  :-D  The tank somehow didn't know I was there during the fight and asked where I was.  I said, "Right behind you on the threat meter."

I swear some players think there is some big fictional cookie they get for out DPS'ing anyone around regardless of how many times they cause a wipe.  Perhaps they just sleep better knowing they got a 3500 crit!  It's just weird.

[Fabricated]

Knock Yourself Out


No idea why my shoulders ain't there.  Heh.

In fairness, I did understand your previous post, I just really, really think you underestimate the amount of target cycling that has to be done and how unfun MOST OTHER people find it.  There aren't that many classes that need to and, in the case of healers, there are UI components that help them to do so !

Why, for example, are tanks never able to have a tanking table like healers with f1-f5 for the different targets in the default UI ?

Seriously, Prot Tank For Life and I'm telling you, I understand entirely why it's now considered deeply unfun.

I liked Andormu's Tear but the lack of stamina just fucking killed me. Go get http://www.wowhead.com/?item=28407 from the Arcatraz and replace it.
If you still have it I recommend swapping our your necklace for the Mark of the Ravenguard necklace from Sethekk Halls.
Get the Aegis of the Sunbird off the second boss in Botanica and slap +18 stamina on it.

If you still have it or haven't gotten it, replace the adamantine figurine with Dabiri's Enigma since you're using the Collosus figurine. Popping both trinkets means a pretty much guaranteed 120 HP back every time something hits you.

The boots are the real bitch. The only real upgrade available to you for tanking out of a 5-man is Heroic Mana Tombs, where a very nice pair of socketed tank boots drop. Off the first boss even if I recall.

[Phunked]

Knock Yourself Out


No idea why my shoulders ain't there.  Heh.

In fairness, I did understand your previous post, I just really, really think you underestimate the amount of target cycling that has to be done and how unfun MOST OTHER people find it.  There aren't that many classes that need to and, in the case of healers, there are UI components that help them to do so !

Why, for example, are tanks never able to have a tanking table like healers with f1-f5 for the different targets in the default UI ?

Seriously, Prot Tank For Life and I'm telling you, I understand entirely why it's now considered deeply unfun.

Your gear is completely acceptable for the level of content that you're doing. I don't think that anyone could argue that you don't have the gear for it. I understand that for some people, cycling through multiple targets may be tedious and frustrating. Personally, I enjoy it and stuff. As for the table thing, I've though about that as well. Why can we only have one focus target? I mean really. For myself, I've created macros which target mobs based on their raid symbols and stuff and that works pretty well when I need it.  But I'll admit that I'm not representative of most, largely because of my focus on the technical aspect of the game (press 5 now, move 2 feet, use item 4, etc)

To be fair though, a large part of the game is tedious (one of the reasons why I'm highly critical of their design system). For example healing is not much more involved than tanking. DPS is even worse, unless the only think you want are the most big numbers in the shortest time period, which typically leads to you tanking the mob for the rest of your health bar.

I'd prefer more situational or reactive abilities - like revenge and overpower but for every class and with about 10 more conditionals added.Or perhaps some combo chains with larger scale effects.  The fact that they won't do this is another matter.

EDIT: If you're doing heroic MT for the boots, grab the ring from the second boss as well. http://wowhead.com/?item=27822 Very nice for any of the slots. http://wowhead.com/?item=27817 is a nice ranged slot as well.

[Salamok]

Knock Yourself Out

more or less the same specs I have, looks like i had my max mitigation/block gear on, my AP can be higher than that if I ditch the increased block.  I had fun collecting gear and levelling once it got to the actual tanking part I managed to tank enough to figure out it wasn't me and then just stopped playing.  After 6 months of not logging on I think I am finally ready to cancel my account.

stuff

Your gear is completely acceptable for the level of content that you're doing. I don't think that anyone could argue that you don't have the gear for it. I understand that for some people, cycling through multiple targets may be tedious and frustrating.

Funny I didn't mind cycling through targets at all preTBC it's the post TBC must complete cycle every 3 seconds that sucks.

[Phunked]

In terms of spec, I highly recommend getting 1-Handed Weapon mastery and vitality.

Bot of those are a substantial threat increase over unbridled wrath and piercing howl. Intervene sort of makes howl unnecessary for tanking since you can always intervene/intercept to whatever the mob is going for. Also if you're going into fury at all, I'd suggest Cruelty over booming voice. The extra radius and duration for the shouts is relatively useless (a savings of 5 rage). Cruelty on the other hand is 5% more threat and more rage.

[Ironwood]

Seriously, where are my fucking shoulders

[Threash]

Why does there seem to be a lack of tanks in Outlands?

Seems to be easier to find healers than tanks.  Why?

The main reason IMO is that pvp warriors no longer have to tank in order to gear up.  Warrior is the most gear dependant class, and the one that shines the most as their gear improves.  Pre-BC you HAD to raid in order to get good gear, or grind to GM to get the weapons which was hard in itself without getting good gear from raiding.  Now you don't have to step one foot in an instance to gear up for pvp/dpsing so all those warriors that were forced to tank in order to raid in order to get their ass kicking gear simply don't bother with it anymore.  Thats why you see so many feral druid tanks, their ass kicking spec is also their tanking spec, so they simply pick up tanking gear when they can and they can easily play that role for instances and even raids.

[ShenMolo]

Why does there seem to be a lack of tanks in Outlands?

Seems to be easier to find healers than tanks.  Why?

The main reason IMO is that pvp warriors no longer have to tank in order to gear up.  Warrior is the most gear dependant class, and the one that shines the most as their gear improves.  Pre-BC you HAD to raid in order to get good gear, or grind to GM to get the weapons which was hard in itself without getting good gear from raiding.  Now you don't have to step one foot in an instance to gear up for pvp/dpsing so all those warriors that were forced to tank in order to raid in order to get their ass kicking gear simply don't bother with it anymore.  Thats why you see so many feral druid tanks, their ass kicking spec is also their tanking spec, so they simply pick up tanking gear when they can and they can easily play that role for instances and even raids.

Generally, a Warrior's spec severely limits his play options.

Prot specced: welcome on raids/5 mans. Suck at farming/questing, suck at PvP.

DPS spec: Great in PvP, great for farming/questing. Ignored for 5 man runs, say goodbye to heroics without a supporting guild. Generally unwanted for raiding unless your guild is cool and/or has a raid on farm status.

Many tanks spend 100g+ a week on respecs. I generally spec dps on weekends, prot during the week. Takes 1-2 hours a week of farming ore to pay for this. My hunter by comparison generally respecs once every 6 months and does his job well (dps) in any environment.

There is a very very strong bias AGAINST dps warriors when it comes to 5 mans, especially heroics. I don't even try to get into a group as dps when im specced dps. Your not wanted/needed, and you threaten the rolls for the Prot specced warrior if there is one.

Consequently, when I'm Prot specced and tanking, the last thing I want in a PuG is another warrior rolling on plate. Most of the items I want from 5 mans are things I have been farming forever, its not even worth running if I have to roll against someone. I love having a second warrior if he is a friend or guildie though.

DPS warriors are generally not wanted in raids. You have to have a good relationship with your guild already in place to make your main a dps warrior. I have never seen a guild recruiting dps warriors, although I'm sure it has happened.

All these various restrictions placed on warriors based upon their specs tend to weed out people from the class quickly.

[Threash]

Many tanks spend 100g+ a week on respecs. I generally spec dps on weekends, prot during the week. Takes 1-2 hours a week of farming ore to pay for this. My hunter by comparison generally respecs once every 6 months and does his job well (dps) in any environment.

I spend 100g a week respeccing on my hunter, and im sure every other class that raids and pvps seriously does the same.  The difference is i can farm on either spec.  Sure i could show up to raids with my pvp but then my guild leader would wonder why i went from top 3 in dps to below the top 10, and i could pvp with my raid bm spec but when my 5v5 drops from 2100 to 1800 id have to explain why i couldnt silence, scatter or frost trap with entrapment.

[Fabricated]

...I haven't respecced since...Jesus, BC coming out.

[ShenMolo]

Many tanks spend 100g+ a week on respecs. I generally spec dps on weekends, prot during the week. Takes 1-2 hours a week of farming ore to pay for this. My hunter by comparison generally respecs once every 6 months and does his job well (dps) in any environment.

I spend 100g a week respeccing on my hunter, and im sure every other class that raids and pvps seriously does the same.  The difference is i can farm on either spec.  Sure i could show up to raids with my pvp but then my guild leader would wonder why i went from top 3 in dps to below the top 10, and i could pvp with my raid bm spec but when my 5v5 drops from 2100 to 1800 id have to explain why i couldnt silence, scatter or frost trap with entrapment.

Yea I never did much arena with my hunter.

[Paelos]

If you do not believe that tanking should be an interactive and engaging role, then what exactly do you want it to be? Sunder twice and go grab a cup of coffee?

To apply the same analogy when you play TF2, do you want to be able to shoot your gun twice and watch as everyone around you magically falls dead?

Seriously, you've stopped tanking because it is too difficult? What about it is more difficult than previously? Please do elaborate. Maybe there's something I'm not seeing.

I still hold by the statement that while tanking is perhaps more stressful than before, it is not mechanically more difficult.

I'll focus on these questions. To answer what I'm trying to tank these days, I've just started our SSC run after farming Kara, Gruul, and Mags. I have all Kara gear with 3-T4 pieces and the Engineer's Tanking Hat. I'm only missing the Breastplate for T4.

I don't think Warrior tanking should be 2 shots and kick back. I do think there is a better balance between being constantly stressed out on simple pulls due to threat not shooting up. Is that a DPS problem? Sure, to a degree. To another degree, there's a lot of frustration when mobs or bosses do a ton of dodge/parry/whatever on your hits. Tanking gear doesn't have a lot of +hit on it, and I think it should.

I haven't stopped tanking myself, as I enjoy the leadership and the challenge. I have watched about half the warriors I tanked with in BWL quit, however. They all went to arenas or solo and never looked back. They simply got tired of dealing with the stress. Life on the DPS side is much easier and incredibly more rewarding in the solo, pvp, and even raid realms if you can get in. Prot warriors only get one choice on where to be effective. These were the same tanks who helped me farm BWL. Only one of them was a bad technical tank, so I'm not sorry he rerolled a shaman. The rest were solid players.

I think you are confusing technical difficulty with stress. I also think it speaks volumes that you admit we're not putting out any more threat than we used to before TBC. Does this not seem insane to you? It completely makes people want to just shrug and say fuck it. It also creates a huge barrier to entry for new tanks. Not to mention most of the stupid designs that Blizzard made with certain bosses being blatant DPS races, and you get a maximum of stress on people. People don't want stress in a game. They don't want to walk away from the stresses of their job or kids or girlfriend or general life only to log into a game to get stressed out on your free time. That last point is where I think the 1% get lost. Those people don't have a ton of stuff going on stressing them out in their life, so they don't have to worry about stress in the game.

I'll take a bit of a shot in the dark as to what kind of person you are, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, which will sort of benchmark your life stresses. My guess is that you are probably in your late teens-early 20s. You are unmarried, in school, have no job or a very flexible 40 hours or less job. You don't go out much during the evenings and your life isn't very scheduled outside of the game. You probably raid 5 days a week minimum, and it's probably for about 4 hours a session or more. Where am I on that? Now, I know there is a tendency here to tell everyone you're a raiding fiend and fucking models, but if you lie to us, we'll know.

EDIT: Oh and I forgot one. You probably don't travel much.

[Salamok]

I'll take a bit of a shot in the dark as to what kind of person you are, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, which will sort of benchmark your life stresses. My guess is that you are probably in your late teens-early 20s. You are unmarried, in school, have no job or a very flexible 40 hours or less job. You don't go out much during the evenings and your life isn't very scheduled outside of the game. You probably raid 5 days a week minimum, and it's probably for about 4 hours a session or more. Where am I on that? Now, I know there is a tendency here to tell everyone you're a raiding fiend and fucking models, but if you lie to us, we'll know.

EDIT: Oh and I forgot one. You probably don't travel much.

now I'm fucking jealous, can I go back to a time in my life when my greatest day to day responsabilities revolved around a game?  I want to be peter pan ftw!

[Nebu]

I spend 100g a week respeccing on my hunter, and im sure every other class that raids and pvps seriously does the same. 

I think you should take a week off and give my poor newbie rogue some cash!

[HaemishM]

The concept of "tanking" was built by retards. Who the fuck ever thought it'd be interesting gameplay to make a class's main function be to get the piss whipped out of it by mobs? I mean, seriously, my job is to be a goddamn punching bag? That is not what I think of when I think of warriors, and it's why I stopped playing warriors. It's lazy, stupid gameplay.

[Merusk]

It's the one thing wrong you can place the blame squarely on the MUD days.  Hell, a lot had a /tank emote built-into the code base.

/tank

"You agree to tank."
"%n agrees to tank. What is %s, nuts?"
"You say "I'll tank %t"
"%n says "I'll tank %t"  They must be suicidal.

Though, to be honest, the "rescue" command was MUCH cooler than taunt.

[Jayce]

This is all very interesting to me, since I'm leveling a warrior strictly to tank right now.

A little history: I had an alliance warrior before, and I was assembling a tanking set, when I got the Hand of Ragnaros drop.  It ruined my life, because I never wanted to be a dps warrior, but when your guild gives you a legendary, you damn well use it.  I rerolled Horde (after the guild broke up twice, and I no longer felt obligated) and leveled a mage to 70.  It's fun, but I really want to just tank, dammit.  So I'm starting from scratch with that idea in mind.  I guess now is when you people tell me to quit now while I'm ahead  :-D

[ShenMolo]

I'm trying to think back 17 years to my D & D days...the Warriors didn't "tank" mobs did they? Maybe in a single mob encounter, yes, but for multiple mobs, I remember everyone had to fend for themselves no matter what class.

[ShenMolo]

This is all very interesting to me, since I'm leveling a warrior strictly to tank right now.

A little history: I had an alliance warrior before, and I was assembling a tanking set, when I got the Hand of Ragnaros drop.  It ruined my life, because I never wanted to be a dps warrior, but when your guild gives you a legendary, you damn well use it.  I rerolled Horde (after the guild broke up twice, and I no longer felt obligated) and leveled a mage to 70.  It's fun, but I really want to just tank, dammit.  So I'm starting from scratch with that idea in mind.  I guess now is when you people tell me to quit now while I'm ahead  :-D

You should do great. The people that roll Warriors WANTING TO TANK will find plenty of opportunities to do so, whether casually or hardcore.

Just one word of advice: PLASTICS....err i mean MINING. 5 or 6 stacks of Outland ores a week will pay for all your re-speccing if you decide to go that route.

[Salamok]

This is all very interesting to me, since I'm leveling a warrior strictly to tank right now.

A little history: I had an alliance warrior before, and I was assembling a tanking set, when I got the Hand of Ragnaros drop.  It ruined my life, because I never wanted to be a dps warrior, but when your guild gives you a legendary, you damn well use it.  I rerolled Horde (after the guild broke up twice, and I no longer felt obligated) and leveled a mage to 70.  It's fun, but I really want to just tank, dammit.  So I'm starting from scratch with that idea in mind.  I guess now is when you people tell me to quit now while I'm ahead  :-D

You should do great. The people that roll Warriors WANTING TO TANK will find plenty of opportunities to do so, whether casually or hardcore.

Just one word of advice: PLASTICS....err i mean MINING. 5 or 6 stacks of Outland ores a week will pay for all your re-speccing if you decide to go that route.

you will find plenty of opportunities but you wont find them very enjoyable.

[Morat20]

I'm trying to think back 17 years to my D & D days...the Warriors didn't "tank" mobs did they? Maybe in a single mob encounter, yes, but for multiple mobs, I remember everyone had to fend for themselves no matter what class.

They pretty much did, depending on the GM -- your physical types generally placed themselves between the squishies and the bad guys, or used RP mechanics (taunting my calling the goblins mother's bad names, for instance), or simply bum rushed them and the GM decided "Angry huge guy with sword in my face wins out on Bad Guy's 'Who the hell should I wallop' list over 'Weird Looking dude in a robe over there'".

Later on, as you party gained reputation, things changed. Your bad guys tended to learn what the wizard looked like, and that he liked to throw fireballs (so if they couldn't get to him, they stayed close to his buddies to deny him a clean shot). After awhile, the bad guys tended to equip Anti-Biggest-Threat devices. (Did you know shatter spells can seriously fuck over ANYONE who likes to keep his poisons and alchemist's fire in class jars ON his person? Wands and scrolls of shatter are quite cheap).

At least in my games, multiple mobs tended to try to grab who was nearest or who seemed the biggest target -- but my fighter types were clever about keeping themselves in the way, and taking feats and skills that allowed them to shape the battlefield.

[Gunzwei]

For me and a lot of warriors I'm sure, the questions of "What am I getting out of tanking?" vs "What am I getting out of DPS/Spec?" is why fewer people are tanking. I expect casual tanks will become near nonexistent with 2.3 adding S1 gear to BG's.

[Fordel]

Being a prot specced warrior or pally but not being the actual tank? Your pretty much dead weight. Your also pretty damn boring to play at that point.

In a group, I'll agree with you about the prot pally being dead weight if they're not tanking. Solo?  The only folks who think that are the ones who haven't tried it.   The problem 90% of people have is they try to take on mobs one or two at a time, just like every other class.  As a prot pally, if you're not taking on 3-4 even-level mobs at a time you're being so mana-inefficient that, yes, it'll take you forever to do anything.  It's also a LOT less boring that way.

Yea in a group is what I mean.


If your not the tank as a prot pally in a group, you either get to spam your shitty Flash of Light (which in itself is another SUPER FUN JOB, paladin healing) or you get to auto attack for a pittance of damage.

That's what it comes down to, 5 mans need 1 tank, 1 healer, 3 dps.

A spell DPS specced shaman, druid and priest can all still heal if need be, so they have 4 possible slots open to them.

A Feral druid, if he has a decent healing suit, can fill all 5 slots.

A Prot specced tank? He can fill 1 slot and only 1 slot. If that slot is already filled, he gets to find a new group or log onto his DPS alt.

[jpark]

Speaking of warlock wives... why to so many women play warlocks, anyway?  I think I know more (true) female warlocks than any other class, including hunters.

It's all about the Succubus. 


[/quote]

I demand the succubus all the time  :-D

[Morat20]

Speaking of warlock wives... why to so many women play warlocks, anyway?  I think I know more (true) female warlocks than any other class, including hunters.

It's all about the Succubus. 

I demand the succubus all the time  :-D
[/quote]
My wife's a warlock in game. And I also demand the Succubus. The whip noises + moaning amuse me.

[El Gallo]

As I spammed repeatedly in beta, there shouldn't be a tanking talent tree for warriors.  You're allowing people to cut off both legs and their  left arm (i.e. ability to do anything but PvE tank) just so they have the strongest right arm (PvE tanking) in existence.  And then they go and balance the PvE game around having a legless, one-armed ubertank available at all times.  OK the analogy sucked but you get the drift.

One reason there's a shortage of tanks because there's a shortage of people who are actually willing to play EverQuest warriors in WoW.  Get rid of the Protection tree, make it so any warrior with skill can tank with a gear-swap and you greatly improve the situation I think.  Fuck, I remember Furor's first review of WoW back before talents even existed, and all he could talk about was how great it was that you didn't have to be a worthless invalid at every other part of the game to be a good tank.  WoW was the bomb before talents got put in.

There's also the fact that tanks are still more important than any other character in a group or raid.  So you need to be/will be expected to be the most hardcore player in your group, which is a lot of stress.  And time.