Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"

[Nevermore]

I'm assuming it's just extra dry sarcasm. 

[Signe]

You um. You didn't read my post, did you. 

No, I just clicked on the video link.  This thread is already 43 pages long or something and my eyes would have gone numb.   I will read it eventually, though.  I totally promise!   

[Ginaz]

You um. You didn't read my post, did you. 

No, I just clicked on the video link.  This thread is already 43 pages long or something and my eyes would have gone numb.   I will read it eventually, though.  I totally promise!   

Putting aside the pretty, PR bullshit video, the actual amount of character customization available in game isn't really all that spectacular.  It has more than, say, WoW but less than DCU or CoX.  I'd say even SWTOR and Neverwinter have more character customization options than Wildstar.

[Margalis]

In most games character customization is mostly irrelevant. You spend 2 hours putting earrings on a dude and tats on his forearm then 10 seconds into the game you have sleeves and a helmet.

In CoX it mattered a lot, but IIRC you couldn't wear armor/equipment, so what you created in the character creation screen was pretty much what you actually got in-game. In most MMOs you just put on clothing that eradicates most of your choices.

[Venkman]

Personally, character customization in an MMO to me has always been a paper tiger argument. Either right away or eventually, you're look is entirely defined by what you're wearing, not by the shape of your eyeballs. I always figure a game with few options up front made up for it in the things other players would eventually see as you acquire them.

Some more recent games have done a good job of highlighting personal choices. Like, as cringe-worthy the dialog and VO was in GW2, or how laborious some of the SWTOR cutscenes were, you did see you often.

But those are relatively expensive ways to highlight something that isn't really core to the game play people associate with MMOs. Which is why so many people were asking about skipping cut scenes in SWTOR (an odd request for the kind of game they were positioning).

[Threash]

Seriously, hair cuts? i never see that shit.

[Chimpy]

Seriously, hair cuts? i never see that shit.

I, on the other hand, always see the haircut because I never turn helms on.

[Signe]

I really love hats in games.  I still miss my duck hat from Shadowbane. 

[Ingmar]

But those are relatively expensive ways to highlight something that isn't really core to the game play people associate with MMOs.

Neither of us can speak authoritatively about this, but my sense is that you have it wrong. What your character looks like is tremendously important to a lot of people. I'd bet good money that most of that enormous amount of F2P revenue that SWTOR gets is from cosmetic stuff, for example. There was practically nothing to do at all in GW 1 in the endgame other than work on what you looked like, and a lot of people spent a LOT of time doing that, based on the number of outfits that took dozens of hours to achieve I saw standing around idling in town. It's the second thing anyone who ever played City of Heroes mentions (after super jump) as something they remember fondly. Even WoW, which probably attracts that crowd the least of the MMOs I've played still has a lot of people putting a lot of time into transmuting their gear just so.

It may not be the Most Important Thing for the Single Largest Demographic, but there's a big chunk of potential market for whom it is very important.

[Sjofn]

Seriously, hair cuts? i never see that shit.

I, on the other hand, always see the haircut because I never turn helms on.

Same. Hair is the single most important thing to me in these, character-look-wise. If my hair sucks, I'm not interested. I like a lot of the hairstyles in Wildstar, there just aren't nearly enough of them to go around.

[Simond]

But those are relatively expensive ways to highlight something that isn't really core to the game play people associate with MMOs.

Neither of us can speak authoritatively about this, but my sense is that you have it wrong. What your character looks like is tremendously important to a lot of people. I'd bet good money that most of that enormous amount of F2P revenue that SWTOR gets is from cosmetic stuff, for example. There was practically nothing to do at all in GW 1 in the endgame other than work on what you looked like, and a lot of people spent a LOT of time doing that, based on the number of outfits that took dozens of hours to achieve I saw standing around idling in town. It's the second thing anyone who ever played City of Heroes mentions (after super jump) as something they remember fondly. Even WoW, which probably attracts that crowd the least of the MMOs I've played still has a lot of people putting a lot of time into transmuting their gear just so.

It may not be the Most Important Thing for the Single Largest Demographic, but there's a big chunk of potential market for whom it is very important.

This sounds like pretty much the same sort of argument the poopsockers make about there being a "big chunk of potential market" for kick-you-in-the-gonads catass MMOs. And in the same way, I'll believe it when I see it.

[Typhon]

The character editor in CoH, by itself, is an argument against how important character customization is to the total gamer population - because it was probably the best/most full featured character editor to date and the game still tanked.

Hats in TF2, by itself, is a strong argument for how important character customization is to the total gamer population - because Valve made a ton of money on hats.

Character customization is a nice-to-have, but you still need a game people want to play to make them want to customize their character.  And, like hats, you can always add them later if it's making you money.

[Threash]

I do love character customization, both in looks and builds, my point was that how my character looks like before gearing up is a very small part of that.  Granted i might have been wrong about how important haircuts are, i guess there is a reason why every single game lets you turn off helmets now a days.

[tmp]

This sounds like pretty much the same sort of argument the poopsockers make about there being a "big chunk of potential market" for kick-you-in-the-gonads catass MMOs. And in the same way, I'll believe it when I see it.

A number of F2P games make their money by selling cosmetic outfits and mounts, and little else. TERA can be example of that on the Western market.

It's not "big chunk of potential market", these people do exist and in numbers large enough they contribute to keeping the game(s) afloat.

[Lakov_Sanite]

The character editor in CoH, by itself, is an argument against how important character customization is to the total gamer population - because it was probably the best/most full featured character editor to date and the game still tanked.

Hats in TF2, by itself, is a strong argument for how important character customization is to the total gamer population - because Valve made a ton of money on hats.

Character customization is a nice-to-have, but you still need a game people want to play to make them want to customize their character.  And, like hats, you can always add them later if it's making you money.

You've got it backwards.  No, customization wasn't enough to save COH but it's literally the ONLY things people talk about when they mention that game and it's still referenced as one of the best customizing process in any game yet.  No one feature no matter how good can save a game but you can bet it's important.

[Sjofn]

Yeah, I'm not saying the game is going to fail because draken chicks have a whole six hair styles to pick from, but for the people who think of that as very important (and they exist), it's a terrible, terrible first impression.

[Typhon]

The character editor in CoH, by itself, is an argument against how important character customization is to the total gamer population - because it was probably the best/most full featured character editor to date and the game still tanked.

Hats in TF2, by itself, is a strong argument for how important character customization is to the total gamer population - because Valve made a ton of money on hats.

Character customization is a nice-to-have, but you still need a game people want to play to make them want to customize their character.  And, like hats, you can always add them later if it's making you money.

You've got it backwards.  No, customization wasn't enough to save COH but it's literally the ONLY things people talk about when they mention that game and it's still referenced as one of the best customizing process in any game yet.  No one feature no matter how good can save a game but you can bet it's important.

You basically just repeated EXACTLY what I said, and added, "you've got it backwards". 

Let's list it out;

I said: "it was probably the best/most full featured character editor to date and the game still tanked"
You said: "it's still referenced as one of the best customizing process in any game yet" AND "customization wasn't enough to save COH"

I said: "Character customization is a nice-to-have, but you still need a game people want to play"
You said: "No one feature no matter how good can save a game but you can bet it's important"

Maybe you meant, "mostly I agree with you, but here's some nuance you're missing".  Which would be fine, except for the, "you've got it backwards" part.  Reading your posts makes my eyes hurt.

[Lakov_Sanite]

The character editor in CoH, by itself, is an argument against how important character customization is to the total gamer population

This is what you said that was backwards.  You seem to be saying that having great customization on a tanking game must mean that feature isn't important to most but that customization is all people talk about.  If it wasn't important it wouldn't be the first feature mentioned and sometimes the only one mentioned when talking about COH.  Everyone agrees that was the one thing they got right and is still talked about and remembered fondly by any who played the game.  If you do not consider this a valid reason for why character customization is important then I don't know what else to say.


Edit:  Just wanted to add that if the same argument was used with anything else it would sound ridiculous.  "That game had the best graphics ever sure but it tanked so obviously people don't care that much about graphics"  no one feature will ever make a game good, you just can't measure the appeal of one part based on overall success.

[Ingmar]

Fancy character customization couldn't save a game that was incredibly grindy, pissed people off by constantly nerfing everything in the least diplomatic way they could think of, had almost literally nothing to do at level cap, and had the worst F2P setup ever designed. It does not follow that it isn't a very important feature to a lot of people, it just means that it can't part the fucking Red Sea.

[Typhon]

You needed to read both sentences.  Here is the second sentence again (paraphrased) - Hats in TF2 made Valve big money.  The conversation about whether folks like character customization should end there.  Folks like it. I like it.  RPG folks like it.  FPS folks like it.  MOBA folks like it (LoL). 

Which leads us to the second question.  How much do they like it?!  This is largely and unanswerable waste of time, but the CoX example is illustrative of an extreme - you can have the greatest character customization engine ever, but that won't keep people playing/paying if you don't have a good game.

So the point of my post was, "Folks like character customization, but they demand more than just Dolly Dress-up".

[Ingmar]

You needed to read both sentences.  Here is the second sentence again (paraphrased) - Hats in TF2 made Valve big money.  The conversation about whether folks like character customization should end there.  Folks like it. I like it.  RPG folks like it.  FPS folks like it.  MOBA folks like it (LoL).  

Which leads us to the second question.  How much do they like it?!  This is largely and unanswerable waste of time, but the CoX example is illustrative of an extreme - you can have the greatest character customization engine ever, but that won't keep people playing/paying if you don't have a good game.

So the point of my post was, "Folks like character customization, but they demand more than just Dolly Dress-up".

It isn't particularly unanswerable:



They like it to the tune of millions and millions of dollars.

[sam, an eggplant]

Holy shit, Lineage 1 outearns WoW? Those numbers can't be right.

[Lakov_Sanite]

"based on f2p earnings" makes the number for wow suspect in the first place.

[sam, an eggplant]

$213m/yr at $180/yr/sub is only 1.2m subscriptions. We know WoW has ~8m subscribers. Is SirBruce responsible for this chart, or is it somehow trying to portray WoW's non-subscription transactions only?

[veredus]

The fine print says purely their f2p earnings listed for WOW and SWOTR.

[Hoax]

No idea how trustworthy the numbers are but its possible they got them all from investor/shareholder reports maybe?

Surprised a little that so many are still playing and buying shit for Lineage 1 and Maple. Crossfire for those wondering is the Chinese stolen version of Counterstrike.

Why isn't Dota2 on there? I thought for sure they were making more money from it than CS?

[Megrim]

Because authentic and verifiable information.

[Threash]

No idea how trustworthy the numbers are but its possible they got them all from investor/shareholder reports maybe?

Surprised a little that so many are still playing and buying shit for Lineage 1 and Maple. Crossfire for those wondering is the Chinese stolen version of Counterstrike.

Why isn't Dota2 on there? I thought for sure they were making more money from it than CS?

Cause its been out a month or two i assume.

[Ingmar]

Does not include subscription revenue. Might include a lot of WoW's overseas stuff since that isn't subs.

[Kitsune]

So yeah, still waiting on one of my good f13 friends to slip me a friend invite here.  Only been on the beta signup since 2011, no hurry or nothing. 

[Flood]

So yeah, still waiting on one of my good f13 friends to slip me a friend invite here.  Only been on the beta signup since 2011, no hurry or nothing. 

Same here.  Where does the line start so I can get in it?  I'm actually craving me some MMO, and NWO isn't really cutting it.  Please save me from Hearthstone. 

[Rendakor]

I'm also itching to try this out. I think I got a weekend one a while back but I worked almost the whole period so didn't get a chance to give it a shot.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Wish I could give my key away.  Playing the beta made me realize I hate mmo betas because half the fun for me is exploring content and I won't want to do it again at release.

[luckton]

New article on crafting @MMORPG.com.

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/632/feature/8200/page/1

It actually sounds somewhat interesting!

[Kitsune]

The crafting system is actually the bulk of my reason for wanting to try the game.  Unlike the 'pile x things into a window, click combine' crafting, this one looks like it allows for some small measure of crafter control.