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Author Topic: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"  (Read 979271 times)
Draegan
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Reply #1015 on: August 24, 2013, 01:47:54 PM

They were willing to pay a sub for a month or two.  It still failed.

Yeah so?
Rendakor
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Reply #1016 on: August 24, 2013, 02:18:01 PM

It failed because it was a mediocre game with nothing to do once you finished the story.

"i can't be a star citizen. they won't even give me a star green card"
Threash
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Reply #1017 on: August 24, 2013, 02:27:26 PM

It doesn't matter why it failed, only that it did just like every single other game that has tried it since WoW.  A sub means it has a much higher barrier for entry and an impossible barrier for returning.  Millions of people are going to try Wildstar too, and their subs are going to crater because it simply doesn't work anymore.

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Draegan
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Reply #1018 on: August 24, 2013, 02:47:41 PM

It doesn't matter why it failed, only that it did just like every single other game that has tried it since WoW.  A sub means it has a much higher barrier for entry and an impossible barrier for returning.  Millions of people are going to try Wildstar too, and their subs are going to crater because it simply doesn't work anymore.



So many wrong things with your post.
1) A game that is shit, will lose subscribers.
2) The barrier for entry for any sub game is no more than any other video game that isn't free right out of the gate.
3) The fate of Wildstar's subs won't be based on if it's a sub or not. It'll be based on whether or not they made a fun game. They're not looking great due to the game being a standard quest treadmill tye of game that has been done over and over for 10 years.
MediumHigh
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Reply #1019 on: August 24, 2013, 03:06:59 PM

Lolz I'm forgetting that mmo's don't exist in the real world. No mmo has ever failed because people would rather do the same thing for free or with a group of friends already playing WoW. But instead failed because those gosh darn developers didn't try enough, didn't spend enough money, wasn't original enough etc, etc. We can go over the all the things f2p gaming has over subs but it kinda wouldn't matter, because the genre doesn't "work that way". Failure means something entirely different.

People had fun playing age of conan
And then they stopped playing.
People had fun playing Warhammer Online
And then they stopped playing.
People had fun with rift...
And then they stopped playing.

Ironically around the same time...

I wonder why...

Those games was buggy and unfun.... everyone found several different games buggy and unfun... at the same time... over the course of several years. What a coincidence.
Threash
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Reply #1020 on: August 24, 2013, 03:07:44 PM

A game that is shit still does fine as F2P.  Everyone here thinks every game is shit.  Therefore every game would be better off as F2P.

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Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #1021 on: August 24, 2013, 03:16:38 PM

Most of this argument is backlash of people upset with wow's success and attributing the whole thing to being a fluke.  As though no other MMO can be fun, no MMO will ever get 1mil+ subs, it's impossibru!

~a horrific, dark simulacrum that glares balefully at us, with evil intent.
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Reply #1022 on: August 24, 2013, 03:18:39 PM

A game that is shit still does fine as F2P.  Everyone here thinks every game is shit.  Therefore every game would be better off as F2P.

Define shit. Are we assuming games that can no longer support themselves with a sub fee as shit? If so would the only good game made since 2004 be WoW and EvE?  Ohhhhh, I see.
Threash
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Reply #1023 on: August 24, 2013, 03:27:40 PM

A game that is shit still does fine as F2P.  Everyone here thinks every game is shit.  Therefore every game would be better off as F2P.

Define shit. Are we assuming games that can no longer support themselves with a sub fee as shit? If so would the only good game made since 2004 be WoW and EvE?  Ohhhhh, I see.

I was being sarcastic, i think all of the games that people are complaining about are about as good as wow.  People are just not going to stay subbed to them, wow's endgame isn't any better than swtors and people keep naming that as the reason their sub model failed.  I don't think any of the MMOs, at least the big ones, since WoW are any less "fun" and yet people still bail after a month of two.  If someone can explain to me why the end games of Rift or SWTOR do not compare to WoW's I'm all ears, but i played both of those games extensively and the reason people bailed was "I don't like doing this anymore".  There is no viable endgame that will keep people around five/six months anymore, much less years like back in the EQ/WoW days.  Not only that but people simply will not tolerate long leveling curves, WoW at launch was good for a six month sub before you even sniffed the end game.  Now anything over a month is going to be dismissed and abandoned.  The last game to have a viable long term endgame was GW1 and maybe Shadowbane before that.  Everything else has been dungeons, heroic dungeons, raids, heroic raids, pvp battlegrounds.  And that is exactly what Wildstar is going to be and why people are going to bail en masse just like the other games and people are going to claim it was horrible.  It won't be horrible, it will probably be pretty damn good, people just don't want it anymore.

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Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #1024 on: August 24, 2013, 03:28:43 PM

Lolz I'm forgetting that mmo's don't exist in the real world. No mmo has ever failed because people would rather do the same thing for free or with a group of friends already playing WoW. But instead failed because those gosh darn developers didn't try enough, didn't spend enough money, wasn't original enough etc, etc. We can go over the all the things f2p gaming has over subs but it kinda wouldn't matter, because the genre doesn't "work that way". Failure means something entirely different.

People had fun playing age of conan
And then they stopped playing.
People had fun playing Warhammer Online
And then they stopped playing.
People had fun with rift...
And then they stopped playing.

Ironically around the same time...

I wonder why...

Those games was buggy and unfun.... everyone found several different games buggy and unfun... at the same time... over the course of several years. What a coincidence.

How many big MMO's have been released in the last decade, compare to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_in_video_gaming the games released in 2012, how many of those were duds, how many were hits?  You are taking 6 games and making a wild jump in saying they can't ALL be bad.  Yes, yes they can.

~a horrific, dark simulacrum that glares balefully at us, with evil intent.
Threash
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Reply #1025 on: August 24, 2013, 03:36:55 PM

You keep claiming the games are bad when they were very faithful copies and usually improvements over WoW. 

I am the .00000001428%
Draegan
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Reply #1026 on: August 24, 2013, 03:37:55 PM

Lolz I'm forgetting that mmo's don't exist in the real world. No mmo has ever failed because people would rather do the same thing for free or with a group of friends already playing WoW. But instead failed because those gosh darn developers didn't try enough, didn't spend enough money, wasn't original enough etc, etc. We can go over the all the things f2p gaming has over subs but it kinda wouldn't matter, because the genre doesn't "work that way". Failure means something entirely different.

People had fun playing age of conan
And then they stopped playing.
People had fun playing Warhammer Online
And then they stopped playing.
People had fun with rift...
And then they stopped playing.

Ironically around the same time...

I wonder why...

Those games was buggy and unfun.... everyone found several different games buggy and unfun... at the same time... over the course of several years. What a coincidence.

You're a special guy. F2P works, subs work. B2P works. It's just that a majority of games, post-WOW did not work very well. When WOW had LFD, other games refused to put that into the game until later. When WOW had addons, some games refused to use them. When WOW had a robust "end game" other games released with nothing. There are just terrible design decisions all over the place.

Age of Conan? The game was entirely broken and unfinished. Dungeons were completely empty. Raids were broken. Classes weren't even remotely balanced. Once you hit 80, sieges were broken. You think it was just subscriptions that kept people from continuing to play? Dumbass.

Warhammer Online? A game that was horribly created, balanced, and it's end game was buggy as shit. People had fun up to level 20 and quit because the game sucked. And you wonder why people stopped playing?

People had a lot of fun in Rift, for a very long time. They could probably still be sub based honestly. But they had too many changeups at the higher end of management. Also, their design decisions in the past year or so were awful anyway.

I mean seriously, get a fucking clue. Some of these games worked really well free to play, you know why? Because they aren't worth subs. But play for free, have fun for three weeks, drop $5 makes you money. If you want to make a game designed to keep people interested a few days at a time random times in the year, then sure. You make a free to play game.

If you're going to make a sub based game, you need to make a good game worth the sub. People. a lot of people, wouldn't mind spending $15/mo on a game to support it. it's just gotta be good.

I don't know why I wasted my time replying.
Threash
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Reply #1027 on: August 24, 2013, 03:40:41 PM

A game would need to invent a whole different endgame to be worth a sub.  "Good" or "bad" don't even come into the picture if we are talking raiding and dungeoning as endgame.

I am the .00000001428%
MediumHigh
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Reply #1028 on: August 24, 2013, 03:46:55 PM

How many big MMO's have been released in the last decade, compare to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_in_video_gaming the games released in 2012, how many of those were duds, how many were hits?  You are taking 6 games and making a wild jump in saying they can't ALL be bad.  Yes, yes they can.

Logically.. no they can't. I mean we like to say they are because we stopped playing them, but we "stopped" playing games long before the "magical unicorn we call mmorpg's" were invented. Before mmo's you played a game for a month or two and buggered off to gamestop/local nerd store to buy/rent another game. Sometimes you played the same game for 6 months. Sometimes you play the same game for a year. Sometimes you luck out and you play a "classic" game that keeps you entertained for 2 or 3 years till the sequel came out. But those instances were the exception not the cardinal rule. Most of the time you was happy beating a game in a few weeks, maybe a couple months, before you moved onto the next. Than the mmo came about and demanded "all" of your free time and that became the norm. In mmo land you play a game for years; catassing under the same dungeons and talking with the same online friends. And that was ok because the pay model supported this trend. Now the trend is changing. Its not the games being bad, its the players.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2013, 03:49:23 PM by MediumHigh »
Draegan
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Reply #1029 on: August 24, 2013, 03:49:24 PM

You keep claiming the games are bad when they were very faithful copies and usually improvements over WoW. 

That's a 100% ignorant statement. It's like saying a Honda Civic is a faithful and improved copy of a Ferrari because it has four wheels.
Threash
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Reply #1030 on: August 24, 2013, 03:54:36 PM

You keep claiming the games are bad when they were very faithful copies and usually improvements over WoW. 

That's a 100% ignorant statement. It's like saying a Honda Civic is a faithful and improved copy of a Ferrari because it has four wheels.

Bullshit.  WoW isn't that good when compared to something like Rift.  The reason people played one for eight years and the other for two months has jack shit to do with their relative quality.

I am the .00000001428%
Malakili
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Reply #1031 on: August 24, 2013, 03:55:35 PM

Are there numbers on the percentages of people who actually pay for things and how much they pay?  I honestly suspect the reason why games with dwindling subs to so well when they go F2P is because by that time only the people who really love your game (and every game has some percentage of this die hard population), and it is precisely those people who will and now can spent 50, 100 dollars a month on your game.
Threash
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Reply #1032 on: August 24, 2013, 03:58:41 PM

Are there numbers on the percentages of people who actually pay for things and how much they pay?  I honestly suspect the reason why games with dwindling subs to so well when they go F2P is because by that time only the people who really love your game (and every game has some percentage of this die hard population), and it is precisely those people who will and now can spent 50, 100 dollars a month on your game.

No, games that go F2P always experience a massive influx of new players who think "meh, its free whats there to lose" or "meh, i guess i can come back now that its free to see if its any better".  Enough of those players have low enough impulse control to make them money.  The die hards probably continue to be subbed.

I am the .00000001428%
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #1033 on: August 24, 2013, 04:17:17 PM

Quote
Logically

I don't think that word means what you think it means.


~a horrific, dark simulacrum that glares balefully at us, with evil intent.
Draegan
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Reply #1034 on: August 24, 2013, 04:26:41 PM

You keep claiming the games are bad when they were very faithful copies and usually improvements over WoW. 

That's a 100% ignorant statement. It's like saying a Honda Civic is a faithful and improved copy of a Ferrari because it has four wheels.

Bullshit.  WoW isn't that good when compared to something like Rift.  The reason people played one for eight years and the other for two months has jack shit to do with their relative quality.

ooooook.
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Reply #1035 on: August 24, 2013, 04:36:23 PM

Did I miss the memo were WoW became the best game every made?
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #1036 on: August 24, 2013, 04:47:15 PM

Did I miss the memo were WoW became the best game Most profitable every made?

Yes.

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Miasma
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Reply #1037 on: August 24, 2013, 04:49:21 PM

"Best" is entirely subjective, there are people who honestly believe Duke Nukem Forever is the best game ever.  All we can go on is most successful and that is WoW by an order of God damn magnitude.

Edit: Lakov beat me as I fact checked order of magnitude.
MediumHigh
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Reply #1038 on: August 24, 2013, 04:56:16 PM

Did I miss the memo were WoW became the best game Most profitable every made?

Yes.

We are making WoW the best compared to all other failed games, so technically according to some folks in this thread, WoW is the best mmorpg ever made. 
Rendakor
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Reply #1039 on: August 24, 2013, 05:20:23 PM

WotLK-era WoW is the best MMO I've ever played. They've since ruined it, and no MMO has been as good as WoW was at that time.

"i can't be a star citizen. they won't even give me a star green card"
Simond
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Reply #1040 on: August 24, 2013, 05:25:14 PM

Everyone here thinks every game is shit.
You could have just left it at that, you know.

"You're really a good person, aren't you? So, there's no path for you to take here. Go home. This isn't a place for someone like you."
Draegan
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Reply #1041 on: August 24, 2013, 07:19:18 PM

Did I miss the memo were WoW became the best game Most profitable every made?

Yes.

We are making WoW the best compared to all other failed games, so technically according to some folks in this thread, WoW is the best mmorpg ever made. 

You're not very smart are you?
Spiff
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Reply #1042 on: August 24, 2013, 11:48:38 PM

This: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/08/24/sure-sounds-like-blizzard-wants-to-take-wow-f2p/#more-166207 may be of interest to the discussion, otherwise resume the name-calling.
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #1043 on: August 25, 2013, 12:52:22 AM

That article is funny.  Wow adding Micro transactions like helmets and exp potions is not them going F2P, it's them trying to have their cake and eat it too.

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Typhon
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Reply #1044 on: August 25, 2013, 06:26:54 AM

So back to Wildstar CC.  What impact does 4 or 5 different "break out" keys, one for each different CC-type have on PvP?  I realize they are multi-use, so you'll probably have those keys available anyway (e.g. double-tap movement key to roll).  I guess I want to believe that it will elevate those with more skill over simple gear checks.

I also wondering if PvE will be similar enough to PvP (from a CC/CC-breakout perspective) that folks exclusively PvEing till the level cap, then giving PvP a whirl cause they are bored will have something of a clue about what to do and won't simply get stomped.  I think this is one of the things that WAR got right - get folks PvPing as soon as possible, and try to make it as fun as possible early on so that PvP is another selling point at the end of the game (I'm saying that early WAR PvP was fun/done right, and nothing else).
Draegan
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Reply #1045 on: August 25, 2013, 07:06:07 AM

That article is funny.  Wow adding Micro transactions like helmets and exp potions is not them going F2P, it's them trying to have their cake and eat it too.

This. It's them saying, "well we can sell sparkle ponies for $25.. so those suckers will definitely buy a xp pot for their 15th alt AND pay $15 a month. HAHAHAH."

Though, in time, WOW will go free to play but that will be in 5 years when Blizzard puts something else out there, or some other company makes a better game where WOW's subs tank to the sub 1 million mark in the NA/EU.
Malakili
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Reply #1046 on: August 25, 2013, 07:07:11 AM

So back to Wildstar CC.  What impact does 4 or 5 different "break out" keys, one for each different CC-type have on PvP?  I realize they are multi-use, so you'll probably have those keys available anyway (e.g. double-tap movement key to roll).  I guess I want to believe that it will elevate those with more skill over simple gear checks.


If the measure of skill in a game is being able to mash 1 of 4-5 different keys when you get CCed then you don't exactly have a high skill ceiling.
Typhon
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Reply #1047 on: August 25, 2013, 07:38:02 AM

So back to Wildstar CC.  What impact does 4 or 5 different "break out" keys, one for each different CC-type have on PvP?  I realize they are multi-use, so you'll probably have those keys available anyway (e.g. double-tap movement key to roll).  I guess I want to believe that it will elevate those with more skill over simple gear checks.


If the measure of skill in a game is being able to mash 1 of 4-5 different keys when you get CCed then you don't exactly have a high skill ceiling.

Only the stun-break is a mash, from what they said.  Given the language in their marketing, and the "only the best" conversations, I'm still curious about how rich they will try to make their combat model.  Its not clear (to me) that they'll focus on least-common denominator and the ceiling will be pretty low (and by 'not clear' I mean, %5 chance they'll do something more clever).

More clever?  Suppose there are 5 different cc-break buttons, each with 5 different interaction types (so far there are only three interaction types, 'mash' and 'click' and double-click the correct movement button).  Let's say that there are 5-8 different attack types, many of them with different interaction types.  Add some interaction between the cc-break at the attacks and you've deepened the game quite a bit.  For someone with good muscle memory and a strong motivation to become good at these games, not an insurmountable problem.  For you average casual MMO player the skill ceiling is already pretty high.
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #1048 on: August 25, 2013, 08:38:33 AM

Quote
"CC in MMOS is not complicated or annoying enough"
-No one ever

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WWW
Reply #1049 on: August 25, 2013, 08:58:06 AM

WotLK-era WoW is the best MMO I've ever played. They've since ruined it, and no MMO has been as good as WoW was at that time.
This pretty much. Even the worst part of WotLK (Trial of the Crusader) was better than everything in Cata.

"The world is populated in the main by people who should not exist." - George Bernard Shaw
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