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Author Topic: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"  (Read 979259 times)
tazelbain
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tazelbain


Reply #980 on: August 23, 2013, 08:46:01 AM

Just because failed games use subscription models does not mean that subscriptions are a failure.  That is the worst possible logic.

I tried this a few pages ago.  Give up now and save your sanity.
Too late. He is deep is Sinji-land. He love X and hates Y.  Every example of Y's success doesn't count because its ghetto. Every example X failing wasn't X's fault.

« Last Edit: August 23, 2013, 08:52:08 AM by tazelbain »

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Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #981 on: August 23, 2013, 09:08:13 AM

Bullshit, I play LOL and it's a great F2P model, this does not mean every F2P model is a good one.  LOL allows you to play the game with little to no distractions in the form of "oh you just found a chest! buy keys to unlock it!" crap that so many companies with F2P attempt to do.

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shiznitz
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Reply #982 on: August 23, 2013, 09:12:08 AM

in the form of "oh you just found a chest! buy keys to unlock it!" crap that so many companies with F2P attempt to do.

That would indeed be a horrible F2P model.  However, I do not think you can name a single game with that specific mechanic.

I have never played WoW.
Abelian75
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Reply #983 on: August 23, 2013, 09:19:48 AM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think don't think Lakov is trying to say that F2P games are all failures and suck.  I think he's just saying that you can't say that the subscription model is totally dead based on the fact that recent subscription-based games have not done very well.  That's not all that hard a statement to defend, really.

I think it's fair to say that the F2P model is good at extracting more money from a rapidly cycling playerbase.  It has a low barrier to entry, and, at a guess, I'd imagine people tend to spend most/all of the money they are going to spend fairly quickly.   So it makes sense that 'failed' MMOs that convert to it have a massive improvement in cash flow;  they've shown that they can't keep people for all that long, so the benefits of the subscription model don't come into effect.  Much better to convert to F2P, as it's better for what the game ended up being.

That's not to say F2P inherently means a game is bad, obviously.  But in the case of MMOs that start out sub-based and end up F2P, I think it's reasonable to conclude that they were hoping initially for a very sticky game, and didn't get one.  Certainly no post-WoW MMO has been anything resembling broad, long-term appeal, so yeah, obviously for them, F2P is going to be an improvement for cash flow.

in the form of "oh you just found a chest! buy keys to unlock it!" crap that so many companies with F2P attempt to do.

That would indeed be a horrible F2P model.  However, I do not think you can name a single game with that specific mechanic.

GW2 and Neverwinter do this, right?  This is pretty damn common, I think.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2013, 09:23:39 AM by Abelian75 »
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Reply #984 on: August 23, 2013, 09:25:38 AM

in the form of "oh you just found a chest! buy keys to unlock it!" crap that so many companies with F2P attempt to do.

That would indeed be a horrible F2P model.  However, I do not think you can name a single game with that specific mechanic.

Neverwinter has that exact mechanic. You found a Nightmare/Feywild Chest! Pay us $1.50 for a key, fucker.
tazelbain
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tazelbain


Reply #985 on: August 23, 2013, 09:29:44 AM

Yep, don't mind it in GW2 since its ignorable junk.

The STO lockbox seem more exploitive.


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Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #986 on: August 23, 2013, 09:32:07 AM

Yup that's exactly what ruined NW for me, stuff like that throws you out of a game.  NW is absolutely the worst at F2P but there are many others close to that bad.  F2P is not the devil and neither is 3d movies but as in both they are both fads and both can be done well but more often done really half assed.

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Reply #987 on: August 23, 2013, 10:15:01 AM

All of Perfect World's F2P stuff is pretty exploitative/cynically designed really.

Too bad since Neverwinter and Blacklight were kinda neat.

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angry.bob
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Reply #988 on: August 23, 2013, 10:16:35 AM

Quote
That would indeed be a horrible F2P model.  However, I do not think you can name a single game with that specific mechanic.

GW2 and Neverwinter do this, right?  This is pretty damn common, I think.

I have at least 3 FTP games  currently installed that have that exact mechanic. It's super common as far as I know.

My kid plays Clone Wars Adventures and those fucking boxes drop like flies. It's a real pain in the ass telling him over and over again that I'm not spending $100 to buy keys to unlock them all.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2013, 10:19:39 AM by angry.bob »

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Malakili
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Reply #989 on: August 23, 2013, 10:19:19 AM

Hell, even Team Fortress 2 has that mechanic.  They added it to Counter Strike: GO last week also.
angry.bob
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Reply #990 on: August 23, 2013, 10:21:25 AM

Hell, even Team Fortress 2 has that mechanic.  They added it to Counter Strike: GO last week also.

Wow... What do the Counterstrike boxes have in them? I haven't played in years but it would be so easy to fuck up the game with anything but purely cosmetic stuff.

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Malakili
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Reply #991 on: August 23, 2013, 10:23:54 AM

Hell, even Team Fortress 2 has that mechanic.  They added it to Counter Strike: GO last week also.

Wow... What do the Counterstrike boxes have in them? I haven't played in years but it would be so easy to fuck up the game with anything but purely cosmetic stuff.

It's all purely cosmetic. Gun skins and such.
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Reply #992 on: August 23, 2013, 10:41:28 AM

That is one petty ass reason to not like F2P.

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Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #993 on: August 23, 2013, 11:03:43 AM

Gameplay suffers when you try and monetize every little thing, I can't believe I even need to try and defend this concept.

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Reply #994 on: August 23, 2013, 11:15:08 AM

It's an MMOG. The entire existence of actual gameplay is up for debate. Suffering practically defines the very nature of MMOGness.

Typhon
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Reply #995 on: August 23, 2013, 12:17:48 PM

Bullshit, I play LOL and it's a great F2P model, this does not mean every F2P model is a good one.  LOL allows you to play the game with little to no distractions in the form of "oh you just found a chest! buy keys to unlock it!" crap that so many companies with F2P attempt to do.

You want every side of the conversation slanted to support your premise.  You hypothesize that someone could make an MMO RPG that folks would be willing to pay a sub for in this F2P-dominanted market.  Then you seem to deny that it's possible that there are F2P models that wouldn't fuck up these types of games.  It's far easier to create a F2P model that doesn't suck than it is to create a great MMO RPG.

I respond with, "Could a really good game not also be successful adopting a F2P model" and I point out that there IS a really good game, in a different genre (MOBA versus MMO RPG), that uses the F2P model in a way that doesn't impinge upon gameplay whatsoever. 

And you say, "Bullshit, I play LOL and it's a great F2P model, this does not mean every F2P model is a good one."  I wasn't saying that all F2P models are great.  I think most F2P models suck.  But I"m actually able to point to a couple of games (LoL, Team Fortress, GW2) that are doing well and don't have a suck-ass F2P model.  You are unable to point to a game that has come out in the last five years that has been 'good', let alone 'good enough to justify a sub' - because they don't exist.

If I followed your arguing technique I would respond with, "bullshit, you played SWTOR, the number 2 MMO RGP in the market and you say that sucks so it's clearly not possible to have an MMO RGP that doesn't suck", which would invalidate your initial premise of "someone could make a great MMO RGP".

If you hate F2P and yearn for the days of sub-based, just say it.  It seems to me you are saying, "in this current market it's totally possible that someone is smart enough to build an awesome MMO RGP, but dumb enough to not consider the current marketplace and hobble themselves with a business model that customers do not seem to want".

Which is why I'm saying, that's not possible as people adopting rocket-power-ponies as the preferred mode of travel.  Yeah, it's possible.  No, it's not going to happen.  If someone is smart enough to build a great game they are at least smart enough to know that their business model has to adopt to the times.
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #996 on: August 23, 2013, 12:45:39 PM

 Head scratch

Half of those quotes weren't even in response to what you've been saying.

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Venkman
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Reply #997 on: August 23, 2013, 06:30:56 PM

Of course F2P is "healthy" it's easy to swindle people out of money when they don't think they are paying much at a time.

You know where most of us probably first tried a F2P model? It was the internet, back in the pay per MB days.  There's a reason most companies no longer use this model, it's because customers would much rather just pay a flat fee than have to worry about every single minute online.

For starters, and again, we all need to be honest with ourselves, privately if not publically:We are all going to pay whatetever the fuck is asked of us for whatever the fuck we're interested in at that time. That's an axiom that poweres whole industries, random forum assertions aside.

But with that said:

Lakov: f2p workks for the inverse of your point. Subscriptions eventually make people think about their recurring investment whereas MTX never does because "eh fuckit it's only $0.99" so what"? f2p strokes the same part of our animal brain as slot machine do. Nobody gives a shit about a quarter or even fifty cents. But charge a recuring entrance fee to the Luxor in Vegas? No way.

Subs compel thinking. MTX is pure impulse. The latter exists because biologically, businesses do not WANT thinking!

tl;dr: when the hell am I getting my beta invite?!
Malakili
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Reply #998 on: August 23, 2013, 07:38:04 PM

I guess I'm just broken.  I'd much rather budget 15 bucks into my monthly spending that worry about keeping track of this and that.  I mean to the point where I haven't actually put money into any free to play games besides LoL where you buy things a la carte.  In the few other cases when I have spent money on other F2P games, it has always been the monthly subscription option (LotRO and Planetside 2).   

That isn't even to say anything of the idea that it totally and utterly shatters any illusion that your RPG is actually its own little world when I can buy things for cash or that it has game design ramifications that I abhor. 
Rendakor
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Reply #999 on: August 23, 2013, 08:59:16 PM

I'm with Malakili; I don't mind paying the $15 particularly because it's a small, recurring charge that I don't have to think about. Having to whip out the CC for some MTX item in an F2P game gives me time to think about it; I much prefer a monthly fee to access the content over being nickle-and-dimed. I've resubbed to EQ2 for a few months here and there, but the only times I've bought things in their cash shop it's been with the free points they give you for subbing.

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Reply #1000 on: August 23, 2013, 10:32:07 PM

I agree with the three previous posts.  If I find a game fun, or initially interesting enough I guess to be more specific, I'll pay the monthly sub.  If I can't spare $15 a month on something that is (hypothetically) going to provide me X hours of entertainment then I probably need to re-prioritize some things in my life regarding my finances anyway.  Plus I feel like a monthly sub is at least a small barrier to the mouth breathers and interweb riff raff. 

I find the MTX thing ranging from annoying to almost breaking the flow of a game for me.  I don't want to see advertisements, no matter how cleverly crafted, in the game I'm playing to escape reality.  And while there's definitely a spectrum of just how "pay2win" FTP games are, they all are to some degree or another.  Why wouldn't they be?  How else are they going to generate revenue?  "Hey we spent the money to develop a game that has no initial cost to get into and has no in-game incentives designed into it at all for us to recoup the cost of said development, much less an ongoing revenue stream."  Yeah.

Eh, whatever.  Wildstar - send beta invite plzktx

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apocrypha
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Reply #1001 on: August 24, 2013, 12:30:42 AM

I however am not prepared to pay a $15/£10 monthly sub to a game any more.

F2P can work and some companies have done it in a way that suits me. The ones that spring to mind that work for me are Guild Wars 2, Warframe, STO, Path of Exile and World of Tanks. Some that have really got it wrong were Neverwinter Online, WarThunder, SWTOR, MWO.

If the cash items & services are mostly cosmetic, reasonably priced, additions to an existing generous free supply of whatever and (importantly) not shoved down your throat every 5 seconds then I am happy to contribute some money to the game. I pretty much never pay as much as $15/month on any game I'm playing (or combination of games) and I am very good at keeping mental track of how much I spend on F2P titles.

If I feel I'm being gouged or forced to pay for essential services & items, or if the entire game is designed as a giant advert for the cash shop (hello NWO) then I'm just not interested.

For me, a box cost plus a monthly sub is a relic of the past. A game would have to be stupendous for me to consider that. Wildstar is not going to be that game.

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Reply #1002 on: August 24, 2013, 02:06:22 AM

That is one petty ass reason to not like F2P.

Ya as I've said before I find it baffling how ppl get their panties in a bunch over those stupid chests. It's like a tax on ppl who failed math or something.
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Reply #1003 on: August 24, 2013, 03:23:50 AM

There was some game recently that wouldn't let me delete them, can't remember which one. That was over the line.

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Reply #1004 on: August 24, 2013, 07:43:37 AM

Lakov is right here. There are some very good F2P models out ther that work and make tons of money, like LOL. There are a lot of mediocre F2P games out there tha make money like SOE's stable. There are a lot of awful F2P games that either make some money or make a lot but the games are shit.

That has no bearing on Sub based games. You can not infer that because SWTOR failed and went f2p that subs are worthless. SWTOR's first incarnation was worthless. F2P just allowed more people to play and drop 5 bucks into their terrible F2P setup.

The trend is that really bland, awful, failing, old or whatever games went free to play to save themselves. What everyone here is stupidily saying is that all those games failed because they were sub based. When SWTOR launched they sold a shit load of boxes and ALL of those people were willing to drop $15 a month.

If a developer could actually make a good game, they will get subscriptions. Unfortunately MMOG developers are really fucking bad and either don't develop games with standard features, or they never make anything new.

The only things I'm interested in the future are games like what EQN is promising that I'm sure won't actually be a reality. Then there are a string of space sims like Star Citizens and CCP's Valkyrie.
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Reply #1005 on: August 24, 2013, 08:53:08 AM

It's not SWTOR, its every single freaking game since WoW.  Everything but WoW is either dead or F2P or delusional, we can damn well infer something from that.

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Malakili
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Reply #1006 on: August 24, 2013, 09:46:05 AM

It's not SWTOR, its every single freaking game since WoW.  Everything but WoW is either dead or F2P or delusional, we can damn well infer something from that.

Yes, that F2P is a great model to use if you have a bad game and still want to make money.
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Reply #1007 on: August 24, 2013, 10:40:00 AM

I guess its the echo chamber of this forum. Years of data and discussion and you guys are still debating how dead subscription fees are? Dear lord. I guess because "free game" to half of you means runescape and its legions of 13 year olds. Yes, can't have them unwashed kids on my lawn. The sub hasn't worked since WoW. Period. Only the EVE and the DarkFalls of the world can charge a sub. Why? Because if your into that type of gaming your part of the hardcore, I.E, the game sucks, the mechanics suck, I play it for the non-gaming aspects AND dumb enough to be charged 15 dollars a month for the privilege.
Draegan
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Reply #1008 on: August 24, 2013, 11:58:32 AM

I guess its the echo chamber of this forum. Years of data and discussion and you guys are still debating how dead subscription fees are? Dear lord. I guess because "free game" to half of you means runescape and its legions of 13 year olds. Yes, can't have them unwashed kids on my lawn. The sub hasn't worked since WoW. Period. Only the EVE and the DarkFalls of the world can charge a sub. Why? Because if your into that type of gaming your part of the hardcore, I.E, the game sucks, the mechanics suck, I play it for the non-gaming aspects AND dumb enough to be charged 15 dollars a month for the privilege.

The only data that we have is devs continue to make crappy games and when they fail the go f2p. Look at swtor millions signed up for a sub. Millions. That should tell you something.
Evildrider
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Reply #1009 on: August 24, 2013, 12:11:39 PM

But then you have people, like this dude in my pub guild, that bought 160 bucks in cartel coins Tuesday to try and get a mount.
Ginaz
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Reply #1010 on: August 24, 2013, 12:14:03 PM

There was some game recently that wouldn't let me delete them, can't remember which one. That was over the line.

It was Neverwinter.
Miasma
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Reply #1011 on: August 24, 2013, 12:21:05 PM

I guess its the echo chamber of this forum. Years of data and discussion and you guys are still debating how dead subscription fees are? Dear lord. I guess because "free game" to half of you means runescape and its legions of 13 year olds. Yes, can't have them unwashed kids on my lawn. The sub hasn't worked since WoW. Period. Only the EVE and the DarkFalls of the world can charge a sub. Why? Because if your into that type of gaming your part of the hardcore, I.E, the game sucks, the mechanics suck, I play it for the non-gaming aspects AND dumb enough to be charged 15 dollars a month for the privilege.
What do you mean "since WoW"? Since the most successful MMO in history? Still the most successful MMO in history even after eight years?  No f2p game can even come close to dreaming of what WoW makes in subs. "Free to play" games still make huge amounts of money from people who voluntarily sign up for $15 a month. Any sane game publisher would make people pay $15 a month until the money runs out before going f2p.  There is nothing to lose, f2p people don't care about playing a game a year after launch.

Whatever Blizzard's next MMO is there will be a (possibly optional) sub and tens of millions of people will happily pay it.

Edit: Removed unwarranted profanity.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2013, 07:12:21 PM by Miasma »
MediumHigh
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Reply #1012 on: August 24, 2013, 12:58:11 PM

I guess its the echo chamber of this forum. Years of data and discussion and you guys are still debating how dead subscription fees are? Dear lord. I guess because "free game" to half of you means runescape and its legions of 13 year olds. Yes, can't have them unwashed kids on my lawn. The sub hasn't worked since WoW. Period. Only the EVE and the DarkFalls of the world can charge a sub. Why? Because if your into that type of gaming your part of the hardcore, I.E, the game sucks, the mechanics suck, I play it for the non-gaming aspects AND dumb enough to be charged 15 dollars a month for the privilege.

The only data that we have is devs continue to make crappy games and when they fail the go f2p. Look at swtor millions signed up for a sub. Millions. That should tell you something.

I didn't know millions of people wanted to play a Star Wars game. Who could have saw that coming?
Draegan
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Reply #1013 on: August 24, 2013, 01:07:47 PM

I guess its the echo chamber of this forum. Years of data and discussion and you guys are still debating how dead subscription fees are? Dear lord. I guess because "free game" to half of you means runescape and its legions of 13 year olds. Yes, can't have them unwashed kids on my lawn. The sub hasn't worked since WoW. Period. Only the EVE and the DarkFalls of the world can charge a sub. Why? Because if your into that type of gaming your part of the hardcore, I.E, the game sucks, the mechanics suck, I play it for the non-gaming aspects AND dumb enough to be charged 15 dollars a month for the privilege.

The only data that we have is devs continue to make crappy games and when they fail the go f2p. Look at swtor millions signed up for a sub. Millions. That should tell you something.

I didn't know millions of people wanted to play a Star Wars game. Who could have saw that coming?

Yeah and they were willing to pay a sub for it. That's the fucking point. Just look at FFXIV. They are opening up with a sub again. I bet you a ton of people are going to be paying it. Samething with Wildstar and TESO. 1 or all 3 of those might go free to play because they might be dogshit games, but the lesson to learn is that people are still willing to pay subs.

So the business model is not dead. The sub model is just one of many options now.
Threash
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Reply #1014 on: August 24, 2013, 01:43:10 PM

They were willing to pay a sub for a month or two.  It still failed.

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