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Author Topic: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"  (Read 979502 times)
Draegan
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Reply #805 on: August 12, 2013, 10:39:30 AM

Stuff

The problem with what you said is that none of what you said "dilutes" the challenge to you. If you and your raid want to do encounter on whatever difficulty level, the challenge to you in doing it is that same regardless of what difficulty other people do it on. What is diluted is your epeen. It dilutes your self perceived status as part of that world's power elite and the recognition you want for that forced onto other players. Raiding isn't challenging and it's barely an accomplishment. Stop making this out to be a "not good enough plebs" versus "elite skilled pros" debate to either make yourself feel better or muddy the argument. The argument that your raiding "challenge" is somehow diluted by a solo option for the same gear is literally no different than the argument that gay marriage ruins straight christian marriage. The real problem is that if there's a solo option raids will struggle to find enough people willing to do it.

Reread what you just posted. When you boil the fat away from the meat all it said was "I don't want filthy casuals having the same loot I have". The rest of it is bullshit rationalizing.

First, if raiding isn't challenging and it's barely an accomplishment, then why does WOW have three different raiding difficulties and the one most people use is the easiest? Sounds like you're completely ignorant of the whole genre. You sound like that college football player that play Div 3 saying that the NFL isn't really much of a difference and is just as easy. Beyond the stupid logistics of organizing a team of people and scheduling them, the fights are actually more difficult and challenging.

The rest of your post is just weird and strangely political. This isn't class warfare, it's a fucking video game. Though I have to give you credit as probably the first person who compared raiders and casuals to gay marriage.

Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #806 on: August 12, 2013, 10:44:23 AM

Dark souls should have an easy mode to cater to the non catasses out there.  awesome, for real

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Reply #807 on: August 12, 2013, 10:46:03 AM


-Rasix
Ginaz
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Reply #808 on: August 12, 2013, 10:46:25 AM



MMOs don't lock you out of content, and raids are not substantial amounts of content either.

MMOs, with subs, give you equal access to everything. If you aren't good enough to beat a raid, that's on you. If you don't have enough time to beat a raid, that's on you. If you don't have enough friends to beat a raid, that's on you. If you don't like playing with X amount of players, that's on you.

Every game doesn't need to cater to you. If you want a game where you can do everything in the game, beat all the bosses and see everything by literally doing nothing, you have World of Warcraft.

Some games want specific bosses to be hard. So, if you happen to beat the Badass Dragon they want that experience and challenge to be uniform across the game. So when you tell a friend what you did, he doesn't go did you beat it in LFR? Normal? Heroic? Does he even care about that distinction? Does anyone care at that point when content is so diluted?

Part of the whole raid mentality is taking up the challenge and proving yourself against that challenge and being in a community that respects that and acknowledges that. It's the same thing when solo players gnash their teeth when people tell them to play a single player game instead. Solo players love playing MMORPGs because they like spending time in a world where they come across other players and they enjoy the experience of playing within a shared environment regardless of their direct interaction with other players. So that shared experience matters to them. In reverse, solo or casual players tell raiders, whats wrong with just doing the same raid but just harder? You get your challenge and I get to do the raid too in super easy mode.

Well the problem here is that raiders like the challenges of a difficult raid, and they also like showing off the shared acknowledgement that they completed it. When Mr Raider kills Bad Ass Dragon and tells a buddy what he did and that buddy can say, yeah I killed him to last week! It kind of dilutes the challenge. Raiders like the shared experience of that.

Now lets bring in League of Legends. They have managed to give Bronze level players the same content as Diamond players yet Riot has been able to give higher ranked players a clear distinction. A diamond level play is nearly a completely different game than a bronze level game.

If MMORPGs can somehow show off this distinction you can solve the problem of difficulties. The huge difference is that you can easily recognize skilled gameplay in a game like League whereas watching 20-40 people raid in any difficulty is mostly the same. People moving to avoid fire and spamming abilities. Of course the game-type is so different, it's probably impossible.

If you stopped using terms like "easy mode" I might take what your trying to say more seriously.  It makes you sound like a pretentious l33t dude trying to school the casuals and nubs.
Nebu
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Reply #809 on: August 12, 2013, 10:50:47 AM

Draegan represents the 1% in MMO's but still sees himself as an every-man.  I saw this from him in Rift.  

I'm as hardcore as the next guy when it comes to gameplay and find that I enjoy punishing content.  What I don't understand is why they can't make the high difficulty content for smaller groups.  After 5 people it's more about organization and the least-common-denominator which are precisely the factors that breed elitism in these games.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2013, 10:53:02 AM by Nebu »

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angry.bob
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Reply #810 on: August 12, 2013, 11:26:35 AM

First, if raiding isn't challenging and it's barely an accomplishment, then why does WOW have three different raiding difficulties and the one most people use is the easiest?
Because people have shit to do and if given the choice between spending time grinding away 40,000 hit points on a boss or 4,000,000, the 40,000 wins. What would win even more is 4,000 in a solo instance and that's why raiders don't want them. Because hardly anyone would group raid then. Don't confuse time consuming and a pain in the ass with difficult.

Sounds like you're completely ignorant of the whole genre. You sound like that college football player that play Div 3 saying that the NFL isn't really much of a difference and is just as easy. Beyond the stupid logistics of organizing a team of people and scheduling them, the fights are actually more difficult and challenging.
Yeah, not really that much harder or challenging. Like I said though, other than your own bruised ego, what difficulty other people do a raid at affects you literally not at all. Well, other than the fact that if people could get the same loot running a raid solo you'd have a much harder time finding groups. It's cute though that you're using a comparison of different overall skill levels for a team sport when the comparison should be a teams of evenly skilled basketball players versus two players going 1 on 1. Group versus Solo does not equal Hard versus Easy. If anything, solo play is considerably harder than group play and requires much more player skill and knowledge.


The rest of your post is just weird and strangely political. This isn't class warfare, it's a fucking video game. Though I have to give you credit as probably the first person who compared raiders and casuals to gay marriage.

Everything you write screams the traditional MMO "class warfare". I used the gay marriage comparison because you're using the exact same argument that traditional marriage "defenders" use to claim gay marriage somehow affects their own marriages. The reality is it has no affect whatsoever other than someone is doing something differently than you did to get the same outcome and you don't like it so they shouldn't be allowed to do it. You write that you enjoy the challenge of a raid, but what you're actually communicating is that you enjoy having things that other people don't have because it makes you special. Those are two different things and you're trying to cloak the latter in the former because it removes the dickishness.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2013, 11:33:47 AM by angry.bob »

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Draegan
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Reply #811 on: August 12, 2013, 11:58:06 AM

If you stopped using terms like "easy mode" I might take what your trying to say more seriously.  It makes you sound like a pretentious l33t dude trying to school the casuals and nubs.

That's your problem not mine. I don't even play WOW, and haven't in years, but I don't see how you can not call LFR easy-mode. Especially after watching that video.
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Reply #812 on: August 12, 2013, 12:03:39 PM

What I don't understand is why they can't make the high difficulty content for smaller groups. solo players.
But also what bob said, not just inflating hp and damage, just making things /tailored/ to a difficult solo run where a good player will be successful, but a bad player will not be. Why are solo players stuck in the overland where there is little reward for good or bad playing?

And I agree about the difficulty of solo play, as someone who used to solo a lot in EQ and EQ2. It was tough in EQ (with my necro) and there were things I could pull off that gave that sense of accomplishment...but then some diptard trinity group would just roll right in and easily tackle the same thing. And maybe then a raid-geared solo player will also come roll the content, because even though I supposedly 'don't need' raid gear because I'm not raiding, raid-geared characters ARE able to play all other content with gear that's WAY over-tuned for it (and then bitch about how easy it is).

I've been saying for years that a proper dungeon would have tiered instances (all content, just different numbers): Solo, Group, Raid, Public. There, everyone is happy.

Except as this always boils down to, nobody WANTS to raid, they HAVE to.

I don't think I've ever agreed this much with a.bob in the history of not being a community. No, no class bullshit at all.
Draegan
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Reply #813 on: August 12, 2013, 12:05:29 PM

Draegan represents the 1% in MMO's but still sees himself as an every-man.  I saw this from him in Rift.  

I'm as hardcore as the next guy when it comes to gameplay and find that I enjoy punishing content.  What I don't understand is why they can't make the high difficulty content for smaller groups.  After 5 people it's more about organization and the least-common-denominator which are precisely the factors that breed elitism in these games.

I hardly represent the 1%. I leave that for the neckbeards. Unfortunately some people can't see past the old hardcore vs. casual debate where it's either raiding or nothing. Like you, I would love to see a game that had no raiding and a serious 5 man progression based game. That would be awesome.

Personally I don't like raiding anymore and don't plan to ever do it again. I don't have time for raid schedules and frankly, I find scripted encounters where precise movement is required while tapping  keys in a rotation or if you fail everyone dies and you have to repeat everything over again.. unfun and stupid. Especially in a DIKU/Hotbar style game.

Take your request for a progression based 5 man dungeon game. I would argue the same thing that there shouldn't be any difficulty settings. Keep the difficulty up and slowly nerf the dungeon as time goes on. This whole three difficulty settings thing in an MMORPG is bad design in my opinion. There are more elegant ways to increase content consumption.
angry.bob
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Reply #814 on: August 12, 2013, 12:06:32 PM

That's your problem not mine. I don't even play WOW, and haven't in years, but I don't see how you can not call LFR easy-mode. Especially after watching that video.

Mostly because normal people don't give a shit let alone describe it using a term that's generally accepted to be derogatory. It's a huge indicator that you're an elitist twat.

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Draegan
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Reply #815 on: August 12, 2013, 12:10:05 PM



Except as this always boils down to, nobody WANTS to raid, they HAVE to.

I don't think I've ever agreed this much with a.bob in the history of not being a community. No, no class bullshit at all.

Says who? When I was younger I enjoyed the shit out of raiding. I really did enjoy grouping with a bunch of other people in a dungeon setting. The only reason why you see "raiders" these days getting smaller and smaller is because when you keep offering easier and easier solutions to the same thing over time, you're going to lose the bigger raids out of attrition. It's bound to happen.

There are people out there that really love raiding and all that comes with it. Part of it is the epeen. Part of it is the loot. Part of it is the challenge. Who doesn't love beating something difficult then bragging about it to everyone? That's fucking human nature.
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Reply #816 on: August 12, 2013, 12:10:23 PM

I'd be more sympathetic to the 'make all content soloable!' idea if someone could explain to me how to make the 4 Horsemen in Naxxramas fight work for a solo player while still retaining any semblance of how it worked before.

Also, throwing this out there: I like having raids be different content than dungeons/solo stuff just because if I do decide to go raiding, I want to see something new, not rehash something I already did just with more people.

EDIT:

And Sky, you're wrong about the 'nobody wants to raid' thing. I enjoyed all the (easy mode casual scrub 10-man) raiding I did in TBC-Wrath era for its own sake.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2013, 12:12:46 PM by Ingmar »

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Ghambit
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Reply #817 on: August 12, 2013, 12:12:31 PM

That's your problem not mine. I don't even play WOW, and haven't in years, but I don't see how you can not call LFR easy-mode. Especially after watching that video.

Mostly because normal people don't give a shit let alone describe it using a term that's generally accepted to be derogatory. It's a huge indicator that you're an elitist twat.

You're angrier then normal these days.  Punkbuster come out with a patch recently or something?

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Draegan
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Reply #818 on: August 12, 2013, 12:12:51 PM

That's your problem not mine. I don't even play WOW, and haven't in years, but I don't see how you can not call LFR easy-mode. Especially after watching that video.

Mostly because normal people don't give a shit let alone describe it using a term that's generally accepted to be derogatory. It's a huge indicator that you're an elitist twat.

Sorry I hurt your feelings dude. Make sure you cry really loud next so I can hear it.
Draegan
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Reply #819 on: August 12, 2013, 12:15:01 PM



Also, throwing this out there: I like having raids be different content than dungeons/solo stuff just because if I do decide to go raiding, I want to see something new, not rehash something I already did just with more people.

Which is what Wildstar is doing I think. They have solo, 5 man, 20 man and 40 man content that is all separated.
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #820 on: August 12, 2013, 12:16:39 PM

I'll try and expand a bit on one liners which c'mon Rasix, was a little funny.

There is nothing inherently wrong with multiple difficulty levels in games.  In fact nearly every game out there these days offers some kind of easy/normal/hard setting(we will exclude dark souls because it's niche on purpose)  Also saying "easy mode" is not really an insult when some things like LFR are exactly and purposefully that.  

The argument has always been that making things easier devalues the achievements of others and I think that argument has a kernel of truth but is very wrong-minded.  Difficulty settings in any single player game are for one reason only, to cater your gaming experience to your own preferences.  While some prefer to tone it down and play on easy mode, I know many(on this site specifically) that choose to ramp things up because even normal mode is too much a cake walk. No one bats an eye in single player games, yet in online games it's wildly regarded as "catering to casuals".

The main issues with varying difficulty in multiplayer games is two-fold:

First is that people prefer consistency, a sense of fairness and stability.  Having different leagues in LOL or even professional sports works fine but if suddenly you had MLB players going up against farm teams(in games beyond exhibition) people would cry out. The same goes for matching bronze LOL players against diamond in ranked matches.

Bear with me, I know most mmo's aren't about pvp.  Even if we exclude player vs player combat, the gear race in these games is still very player vs player and while you may not enjoy that aspect of the game it's simply impossible to get rid of it due to human nature.  It need not even be about raids, simply getting a rare fashion item or non combat pet can be a point of pride(the oozling pet in wow back in the day was a big deal)

Everyone has difficulty settings they are happy with and whatever setting you play skyrim on, it's how simply how that world is for you.  It's when you start bringing in people playing simultaneously at different difficulty levels for the same rewards there is discontent and worse, disassociation with the game.  People stop thinking of it as THEIR GAME and start seeing the man behind the curtain.  

The second is:  When you try to cater to everyone, you get Mcdonalds.

Why must mmo's be all things to all people? We don't ask the same in our single player games and yet when it comes to the massively multiplayer we want, nay DEMAND it cater to all types.  Wow suffers from its own terrible weight on this issue, it's become a giant machine to pump out subs and each passing iteration has brought seemingly more for all types of players yet the quality suffers more and more.  It's a classic case of being spread too thin on all parts.

We should be applauding any game that wants to bring in 40, even old style eq70 player raids if that's what they want to do and if they do it well.  Most online games now are either blatant cash grabs with F2P or so homogenized that every aspect is as bland as a big mac.

God I went on too long here....

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Nebu
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Reply #821 on: August 12, 2013, 12:18:13 PM

I hardly represent the 1%. I leave that for the neckbeards. Unfortunately some people can't see past the old hardcore vs. casual debate where it's either raiding or nothing. Like you, I would love to see a game that had no raiding and a serious 5 man progression based game. That would be awesome.

Personally I don't like raiding anymore and don't plan to ever do it again. I don't have time for raid schedules and frankly, I find scripted encounters where precise movement is required while tapping  keys in a rotation or if you fail everyone dies and you have to repeat everything over again.. unfun and stupid. Especially in a DIKU/Hotbar style game.

Take your request for a progression based 5 man dungeon game. I would argue the same thing that there shouldn't be any difficulty settings. Keep the difficulty up and slowly nerf the dungeon as time goes on. This whole three difficulty settings thing in an MMORPG is bad design in my opinion. There are more elegant ways to increase content consumption.

Sounds like we want the same game.  If it also has a reasonable PvP component (even just battlegrounds), I'd be happy for 6 months.  Why have we not played more MMO's together?  I imagine we'd have some interesting discussions.


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Mrbloodworth
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Reply #822 on: August 12, 2013, 12:30:39 PM

Draegan represents the 1% in MMO's but still sees himself as an every-man.  I saw this from him in Rift.  

I'm as hardcore as the next guy when it comes to gameplay and find that I enjoy punishing content.  What I don't understand is why they can't make the high difficulty content for smaller groups.  After 5 people it's more about organization and the least-common-denominator which are precisely the factors that breed elitism in these games.

Part of why I liked LOTRO. All the small group/full group content + Difficulty.

I Can give two shits about "Raids", to each his own. Only time it affects me is PvP ( In Typical power crazed MMO's ) and if the development is only about that. I Have planetside for real raids, and logistics, and planing, and challenge. It also takes less time.

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Reply #823 on: August 12, 2013, 12:57:24 PM

Raid ARE harder by default even if it is only by enflating the HP of a boss, because the more people you need to do any content the higher the flat number of mistakes to be committed by those people. Every additional person is a chance for mistakes and blunders. In a group of five, if we do two mistakes each on average on a given boss, we have ten mistakes. In a group of 40, that number multiplies.

That is why solo content is pretty much generally considered easier, because YOU are responsible for everything and you can keep under control the number of "mistakes" in each encounter much more easily. Same with your own learning process.

So we can disagree forever, but raid content is -withouth getting into the specific of any raid in any game- harder by default, because more people means more chances for mistakes. This is why it feels like winning at the NFL instead of Division 3, because it literally WAS harder to get everything in order to win.

And to clarify, sure you can make a specific 5 person thing which is much harder than a specific 40 person raid, but the human element works against humans, so everything is easier if you can  keep that to a minimum.

Draegan
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Reply #824 on: August 12, 2013, 01:05:03 PM



Sounds like we want the same game.  If it also has a reasonable PvP component (even just battlegrounds), I'd be happy for 6 months.  Why have we not played more MMO's together?  I imagine we'd have some interesting discussions.



I haven't played an MMORPG more than a few weeks since Rift releaed, and that was my last hurrah into raiding. Since then no MMORPG has captured my attention. I played GW2 a lot, but I played that more like a single player game than anything else. WvW was fun for a few weeks too.

I've been playing LOL almost exclusively these last few months. I'd love to play video games with you next time a good MMORPG comes out (if that ever happens). Maybe EQN will be something. Wildstar, for me, will be something I try for a month or so from my view point now. I have no desire for a raid game, and I'm tired of quest treadmill leveling games.
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Reply #825 on: August 12, 2013, 01:12:42 PM

Dito. Ain't no one got time for that!

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Reply #826 on: August 12, 2013, 01:45:53 PM

I am glad I blundered into this if only to remind me why I walked away from this genre.

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Reply #827 on: August 12, 2013, 01:50:04 PM

I wish MMO content had more of a simple-complex scale rather than the current type of easy-hard which usually means more or less just more damage and hp for the mob (with maybe a new type of special attack or two if it's a boss). It might not be very popular though since too good mob AI tends to make games not enjoyable to alot of the player base.
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Reply #828 on: August 12, 2013, 01:52:56 PM

MMO's tend to attract players that enjoy the time = power progression.  FPS/MOBA games tend to attract players that enjoy skill = power paradigm. 

Different strokes for different folks.  I know I prefer something in the middle... which is why WoT appeals to me so much.

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Reply #829 on: August 12, 2013, 04:33:48 PM

I agree with Draegan's wall of text with the caveat that I don't consider requiring more people to be legitimate challenge after a certain point.

Requiring 40 people basically means you have to be a serious member of a guild, put up with guild politics bullshit and drama, etc. The skill it tests is social organization. If a game requires a 5-person group if you have an active circle of friends playing you can tackle it, or maybe do it with randoms. At 40 you're blocking people off not based on challenge but on guild membership.

That said I don't see why content has to be accessible to all players. After I beat Xenoblade I didn't do any of the "post-game" bosses, I had played enough of the game and moved on. That's content I never saw but I greatly enjoyed the game so I don't feel cheated.

The resource argument is also a bit tricky. On some level it makes sense not to spend resources on things most players won't experience, but that's also an argument against branching paths of any kind, optional quests, etc. IMO it adds a lot to the world for something to exist, even if you've never personally experienced it. Within reason of course.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2013, 04:35:39 PM by Margalis »

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Reply #830 on: August 12, 2013, 08:47:00 PM


Everyone wants a game perfect for them, and developer time and focus is limited.

I'm beginning to wonder if there was a multi-player mod for a game like skyrim, and content packs, whether I could happily wave good bye to the idea of MMO's. People who play for achievement want an audience but I just want to explore a world with friends rather than having the drama and effort of having to fill a raid team or the anonymity of LFR. So maybe the problem is there's nothing between single player and MMO.

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Margalis
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Reply #831 on: August 12, 2013, 09:21:58 PM

When I first played Daggerfall I thought "man, this game is practically already a multi-player game, why not just have multi-player?" but the more I thought about it the more I thought it wouldn't work.

I do agree that small group / co-op stuff is pretty different from massive. I think the problem is that if you are an "MMO" you can engage in MMO-style pricing, whereas if you're a game with small group support it's harder to get away with that - though that's probably changing.

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Reply #832 on: August 13, 2013, 05:11:35 AM


Everyone wants a game perfect for them, and developer time and focus is limited.

I'm beginning to wonder if there was a multi-player mod for a game like skyrim, and content packs, whether I could happily wave good bye to the idea of MMO's. People who play for achievement want an audience but I just want to explore a world with friends rather than having the drama and effort of having to fill a raid team or the anonymity of LFR. So maybe the problem is there's nothing between single player and MMO.


I've said many times on these forums before, but I wish someone would attempt another game like NWN.  The best privately run persistent world servers in those games were better experiences than MMOs in my opinion.

Edit: Of course, the big problem these days is that no one is going to sell that kind of versatility in a game for 50 bucks and leave it at that.  It's a damn shame.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2013, 06:18:41 AM by Malakili »
amiable
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Reply #833 on: August 13, 2013, 05:16:32 AM



I've said many times on these forums before, but I wish someone would attempt another game like NWN.  The best privately run persistent world servers in those games were better experiences that MMOs in my opinion.

It would be nice, but I nowadays the company that made it would probably be too interested in monetizing the toolset.  "Pay 500 Macguffin points (20 dollars) for the Evil Temple tiles!"
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Reply #834 on: August 13, 2013, 05:58:55 AM

Eh, Enterbrain does that with RPGMaker and it still does a pretty healthy business despite being a really weird niche product mostly used by the Japanese to make horror games.

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Reply #835 on: August 13, 2013, 06:26:27 AM

I don't really see a problem with the company trying to make some money either.  NWN persistent worlds were a lot of fun, I spent more time on them than any recent MMO.

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Reply #836 on: August 13, 2013, 06:44:23 AM

A more robust/more scriptable/less janky NWN type game would be awesome, but I think the AAA industry has all but told modders to fuck off at this point, minus Bethesda and that's just with the Elder Scrolls series which has a long history of it.

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Reply #837 on: August 13, 2013, 06:44:47 AM

RMT universally shits up whatever game it is in.

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Reply #838 on: August 13, 2013, 09:48:36 AM

Man, looks like I should have waited a few days before posting my little "Y U ALL SO ANGRY" post.  Much more pertinent now.

But basically, this:

Why must mmo's be all things to all people? We don't ask the same in our single player games and yet when it comes to the massively multiplayer we want, nay DEMAND it cater to all types.  Wow suffers from its own terrible weight on this issue, it's become a giant machine to pump out subs and each passing iteration has brought seemingly more for all types of players yet the quality suffers more and more.  It's a classic case of being spread too thin on all parts.

Also, I'm not sure if some of you realize just how easy WoW's LFR is.  I get where the gut reaction to Draegan's comment about LFR being "easy-mode" came from, because there have been some goddamn toxic communities on the WoW servers I've played on, and the constant douchebaggery from the "elite" guilds made me want to set people on fire.  That said, at some point, you do have to accept that that is the only fitting term.  To clarify...

And Sky, you're wrong about the 'nobody wants to raid' thing. I enjoyed all the (easy mode casual scrub 10-man) raiding I did in TBC-Wrath era for its own sake.

There is absolutely no comparison between the mocking term "easy-mode" applied to these 10-man raids (which were actually fairly hard in some cases, especially optional bosses and hard modes and such), and the word "easy-mode" applied to LFR raids.  LFR is ridiculously easy.  If you haven't experienced it, you have to just trust that it is in a class of its own.  Literally, you will learn nothing about the abilities or mechanics of virtually any boss doing LFR.  It's designed so that 25 total strangers can, without communicating or having experienced the fights before, reliably defeat pretty much every encounter, despite the fact that these encounters have mechanics designed to involve coordinated play (which are then gutted into being meaningless for the LFR version).  Occasionally one boss is "hard" enough that it takes a few tries of blindly attacking it to win (again, without communication or preparation).

So when you see someone talking about "easy modes" of modern raids, please do not mistake these people for being the same dudes who based the old "easy mode" raids, which were in fact "fairly tough" raids.  This is ACTUAL easy mode.

(Btw, regarding the discussion about why difficulty levels might not work as well in a multiplayer setting, I have to point out:  Difficulty levels, especially the naive "choose how hard this game should be!" arguably kind of suck even in single-player games much of the time)
Typhon
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2493


Reply #839 on: August 13, 2013, 12:57:34 PM

[snip]
Part of the whole raid mentality is taking up the challenge and proving yourself against that challenge and being in a community that respects that and acknowledges that. [snip]

Question to those advocating for large raids and best gear for largest raids - why wasn't Vanguard successful?  Not a snarky question, just wondering about your take on the failure of Vanguard.  I don't know anything about Vanguard except that it was supposed to be more on the challenging/punishing side of the house.  Vanguard seems like it would have drawn the type of people that Draegen is talking about in that quote.  My impression (from people posting about it here) was that it was a reasonably well designed and implemented game, but it seems like few played it.

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