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Author Topic: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"  (Read 979300 times)
Pennilenko
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Reply #770 on: August 10, 2013, 08:11:17 AM

I really believe that some of you people shouldn't be allowed to touch an mmo. However, somebody needs to make an epic as fuck single player, with coop, subscription game to get some of you to shut the fuck up.

"See?  All of you are unique.  And special.  Like fucking snowflakes."  -- Signe
Hoax
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Reply #771 on: August 10, 2013, 08:56:57 AM

I really believe that some of you people shouldn't be allowed to touch an mmo. However, somebody needs to make an epic as fuck single player, with coop, subscription game to get some of you to shut the fuck up.

Dear god this. Feels like I've been saying it for 8 years.

Am I the only one that thinks content I can not do is kind of interesting?  I have not had time to raid in years, but I like the fact that it exists.  It makes an mmo feel like an mmo when there are large groups out there, whether or not I can join them.

I think its the very essence of virtual worlds. Someone passing by wearing crazy armor with some massive weapon you've never seen riding something you don't know where it came from. Hearing people discuss something happening on the server between the most badass pvp'ers or pvp guilds or talking about the guy running the economy or the uber guild competing for world firsts. All of those things are part of the experience. The game is bigger than you. Its the only reason to put up with the inferior gameplay that such large games offer.

A nation consists of its laws. A nation does not consist of its situation at a given time. If an individual's morals are situational, then that individual is without morals. If a nation's laws are situational, that nation has no laws, and soon isn't a nation.
-William Gibson
Falconeer
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Reply #772 on: August 10, 2013, 11:09:39 AM

Am I the only one that thinks content I can not do is kind of interesting?  I have not had time to raid in years, but I like the fact that it exists.  It makes an mmo feel like an mmo when there are large groups out there, whether or not I can join them.

I think its the very essence of virtual worlds. Someone passing by wearing crazy armor with some massive weapon you've never seen riding something you don't know where it came from. Hearing people discuss something happening on the server between the most badass pvp'ers or pvp guilds or talking about the guy running the economy or the uber guild competing for world firsts. All of those things are part of the experience. The game is bigger than you. Its the only reason to put up with the inferior gameplay that such large games offer.

Yes, I agree. Count me in. And it is because I cannot do it that the world feels alive and rich and mysterious and gives me the idea that there's a lot going on out there that exists beside me (which is why I am playing a MMO and not another single player). Not to mention that, you know, if I really wanted, I could actually do it.

Threash
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Reply #773 on: August 10, 2013, 11:29:33 AM

I agree, but games should stop making you the hero of the story.  This isn't a single player game, i want to be a random adventurer like i was in EQ, or part of an army like in SB.

I am the .00000001428%
Draegan
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Reply #774 on: August 10, 2013, 12:32:27 PM

I stopped paying attention to lore and story in mmorpgs a very long time ago.
Abelian75
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Reply #775 on: August 10, 2013, 01:09:09 PM

I don't really get why anyone would still be angry about the idea of less-than-fully-accessible raiding.  I get why it would be something one would get angry about back in the day, when every game did it and it was frustrating that there was this new genre of games out there that seemed ALMOST perfect for you, but not quite because they continuously demanded this style of play that you hated and seemed extraneous to you.

Now every game pretty much has abandoned the idea of inaccessible raids.  Why is it such a rage-inducing thing if one game kinda tries it again, at least briefly, at launch?  I get thinking that it's probably not a great decision, and I probably lean slightly toward the "it's probably not going to work" way of thinking, but surely it's kind of nice to see someone going in an ever-so-slightly different direction than everyone else in the world?  And I mean, shit, we're talking EVER-so-slightly here.  These goddamn games are all practically the same thing.

Edit:  Also, because it doesn't deserve it's own post but I just can't help saying it... God, fuck this "elder game" terminology.  Jesus.  Fuck.  At least they aren't calling levels "seasons."

Yes, I see the irony in raging about something so trivial in the very same post I am expressing confusion about other people's rage about something far less trivial.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2013, 01:12:01 PM by Abelian75 »
Threash
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Reply #776 on: August 10, 2013, 01:13:07 PM

I don't really get why anyone would still be angry about the idea of less-than-fully-accessible raiding.  I get why it would be something one would get angry about back in the day, when every game did it and it was frustrating that there was this new genre of games out there that seemed ALMOST perfect for you, but not quite because they continuously demanded this style of play that you hated and seemed extraneous to you.

Now every game pretty much has abandoned the idea of inaccessible raids.  Why is it such a rage-inducing thing if one game kinda tries it again, at least briefly, at launch?  I get thinking that it's probably not a great decision, and I probably lean slightly toward the "it's probably not going to work" way of thinking, but surely it's kind of nice to see someone going in an ever-so-slightly different direction than everyone else in the world?  And I mean, shit, we're talking EVER-so-slightly here.  These goddamn games are all practically the same thing.

They get angry because it is a massive commitment of resources that is geared towards the smallest segment of the population.  They get angry because all that effort should be expended on content that everyone can enjoy. 

I am the .00000001428%
Abelian75
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Reply #777 on: August 10, 2013, 01:16:07 PM

For every game ever made?  They always have to have the same strategy and be tailored to the same people?  Again, that would make sense if this was still the status quo.  I was one of those people back then.
MediumHigh
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Reply #778 on: August 10, 2013, 01:23:24 PM

I don't really get why anyone would still be angry about the idea of less-than-fully-accessible raiding.  I get why it would be something one would get angry about back in the day, when every game did it and it was frustrating that there was this new genre of games out there that seemed ALMOST perfect for you, but not quite because they continuously demanded this style of play that you hated and seemed extraneous to you.

Now every game pretty much has abandoned the idea of inaccessible raids.  Why is it such a rage-inducing thing if one game kinda tries it again, at least briefly, at launch?  I get thinking that it's probably not a great decision, and I probably lean slightly toward the "it's probably not going to work" way of thinking, but surely it's kind of nice to see someone going in an ever-so-slightly different direction than everyone else in the world?  And I mean, shit, we're talking EVER-so-slightly here.  These goddamn games are all practically the same thing.

They get angry because it is a massive commitment of resources that is geared towards the smallest segment of the population.  They get angry because all that effort should be expended on content that everyone can enjoy. 

I think that is a faulty argument. Like making a collection of board games but than, instead of making a new board game, you figure out how to add more rules to monopoly. Sure sounds cool, but rarely does it add "fun".
Typhon
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Reply #779 on: August 10, 2013, 01:50:57 PM

I don't really get why anyone would still be angry about the idea of less-than-fully-accessible raiding.  [snip]

Raiding accesbility doesn't bother me at all.  I know that I won't be involved in it.  If I run out of content/get bored I'll stop playing.  I don't care why the dev is slow, I have stopped being invested in games.

I care about leveling and loot.  Best loot only available via raiding makes me not interested in the game.  It doesn't make me angry.

Usually I leave a thread when I've lost interest in a game, to allow those interested in the game to share their common interest without me pissing all over it.  I haven't left because I find the conversation about what folks like/don't like about MMOs interesting, as well as the "what raiding is/should be, how hard should it be, what should the rewards be" interesting.  It seems to me that a few of you in the pro-40-man + BIS camp have complained in the past about PvP being ruined by folks just having better gear, but maybe I'm not remembering properly.
Fordel
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Reply #780 on: August 10, 2013, 01:52:38 PM

Am I the only one that thinks content I can not do is kind of interesting?  I have not had time to raid in years, but I like the fact that it exists.  It makes an mmo feel like an mmo when there are large groups out there, whether or not I can join them. 


You're a known crazy person though  why so serious?

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Pennilenko
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Reply #781 on: August 10, 2013, 06:50:25 PM

You're a known crazy person though  why so serious?

Pretty sure that aptly describes every single person on this forum.

"See?  All of you are unique.  And special.  Like fucking snowflakes."  -- Signe
Rasix
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Reply #782 on: August 10, 2013, 06:57:09 PM

There's a competitive ladder system for craziness.  You have to be a mod or be grouped with a mod to see it.

-Rasix
Threash
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Reply #783 on: August 10, 2013, 07:17:59 PM

There's a competitive ladder system for craziness.  You have to be a mod or be grouped with a mod to see it.

Fuck forced grouping, I'm going to post at something awful.

I am the .00000001428%
Malakili
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Reply #784 on: August 10, 2013, 07:28:08 PM




You're a known crazy person though  why so serious?


I considered donating enough money to grief title myself "Hates Fun"  why so serious?
Ghambit
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Reply #785 on: August 10, 2013, 07:57:13 PM

Am I the only one that thinks content I can not do is kind of interesting?  I have not had time to raid in years, but I like the fact that it exists.  It makes an mmo feel like an mmo when there are large groups out there, whether or not I can join them. 

Nope.  You're not the only one.

"See, the beauty of webgames is that I can play them on my phone while I'm plowing your mom."  -Samwise
Draegan
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Reply #786 on: August 10, 2013, 08:21:28 PM

Me playing games casually these days, I know that I can't do some content, but I really love reading/watching/following people who do have time for it. If I can jump into a game and do everything with my casual playing ass these days, the game is not worth playing to me because it's probably really simple and shitty.

Look at WOW in that video. Why would I want to bother doing that?
Fabricated
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Reply #787 on: August 10, 2013, 08:23:42 PM

Sounds to me like the problem is with you then if you need casual access to content cut off in order to want to do it at higher difficulties.

"The world is populated in the main by people who should not exist." - George Bernard Shaw
Abelian75
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Reply #788 on: August 10, 2013, 08:24:49 PM

I care about leveling and loot.  Best loot only available via raiding makes me not interested in the game.  It doesn't make me angry.

Oh, I totally get that.  I wasn't talking about you, and I thought you made a good point earlier that the "LFR raiding is trivially easy" experiment could be interpreted as arguing even more strongly for smaller group content.
Draegan
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Reply #789 on: August 10, 2013, 09:03:12 PM

Sounds to me like the problem is with you then if you need casual access to content cut off in order to want to do it at higher difficulties.

Missed the point completely, not surprisingly. Here's the deal. I don't get any enjoyment out of easy mode games. If I can beat a game on easy mode, I very rarely have any motivation to do it on a more difficulty setting. I find repeating content boring for the most part. I consider "beating" a raid by getting all the loot I want. If there is another set of just a bit better gear on harder mode, to me that's stupid.

It trickles down to the rest of the game. it's all just boring, bland and easy. Might as well be playing a flash game somewhere.
Draegan
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Reply #790 on: August 10, 2013, 09:04:28 PM

I care about leveling and loot.  Best loot only available via raiding makes me not interested in the game.  It doesn't make me angry.

Oh, I totally get that.  I wasn't talking about you, and I thought you made a good point earlier that the "LFR raiding is trivially easy" experiment could be interpreted as arguing even more strongly for smaller group content.

I would love to see a game where everything is 5 man content and give you the option to do it with 4 bot hirlings. Just make it progressively more difficult. I like progression.
Fabricated
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Reply #791 on: August 10, 2013, 09:07:17 PM

Sounds to me like the problem is with you then if you need casual access to content cut off in order to want to do it at higher difficulties.

Missed the point completely, not surprisingly. Here's the deal. I don't get any enjoyment out of easy mode games. If I can beat a game on easy mode, I very rarely have any motivation to do it on a more difficulty setting. I find repeating content boring for the most part. I consider "beating" a raid by getting all the loot I want. If there is another set of just a bit better gear on harder mode, to me that's stupid.

It trickles down to the rest of the game. it's all just boring, bland and easy. Might as well be playing a flash game somewhere.
Then don't play it on easy mode and go straight to normal/hard? I mean, you get to decide what content you want to do right?

"The world is populated in the main by people who should not exist." - George Bernard Shaw
Kageru
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Reply #792 on: August 11, 2013, 08:02:19 AM

Am I the only one that thinks content I can not do is kind of interesting?  I have not had time to raid in years, but I like the fact that it exists.  It makes an mmo feel like an mmo when there are large groups out there, whether or not I can join them.  

It's fascinating, but I don't need to be playing the game to follow stuff I'm ineligible for, which also means I'm not paying. It's pretty much what I read this forum for, being able to hear about events like massive Eve battles, catass raiders and feral communities like Salem without having to invest that much (often not very fun) time.

I can believe there are some people who believe they'll be titan pilots, hardcore raiders or PvP badasses "one day" and thus keep playing, but I suspect the increased number of games available means people not having fun will with the gameplay they have access to will just silently vanish.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2013, 08:09:59 AM by Kageru »

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Mrbloodworth
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Reply #793 on: August 11, 2013, 11:20:04 AM


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Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #794 on: August 11, 2013, 07:36:29 PM

People spend untold hours watching other peoples LOL matches. I'm not saying it's right but disposable time ain't exactly rare.

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Kageru
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Reply #795 on: August 11, 2013, 07:49:20 PM


Not sure that's a direct equivalent, is an LoL player locked out of substantial content until they've proven they're hard-core? Do they get lesser versions of the same characters and gear?

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Rendakor
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Reply #796 on: August 11, 2013, 07:50:15 PM

It was always pulling teeth to get people to watch strategy videos when I ran my WoW guild, and they were all in the 10-15 minute range. Usually I'd just watch it and do my best to explain the strat on Ventrilo; only after we had wiped to the same mechanic a few times would we take a break mid-raid for everyone to watch the video.

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Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #797 on: August 11, 2013, 08:34:17 PM

While I don't think watching videos should be a bar to set for content, it's not as though people don't waste time on equally stupid stuff that's all I'm saying here.


If you are super into a raiding game and watching a 15min fight video helps more power to you.  Personally I never watched or studied ANY encounter in my hardcore days because the truth was it's never a one shot and wow mechanics were never so hard for dps that I didn't figure it out by the second round.

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Ginaz
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Reply #798 on: August 12, 2013, 12:12:05 AM

The way I look at the MMO group vs solo argument is that I'm like Wolverine.  Most of the time I prefer to do stuff on my own because, in the context of the game, I'm pretty bad ass on my own.  However, when I need to tackle something more difficult, thats when I go with the rest of the X-Men.  Except for Cyclops.  Fuck that guy.  He's always trying to mow my lawn with Jean Grey.
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #799 on: August 12, 2013, 06:16:00 AM

Cool story bub.

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Malakili
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Reply #800 on: August 12, 2013, 06:54:46 AM

While I don't think watching videos should be a bar to set for content, it's not as though people don't waste time on equally stupid stuff that's all I'm saying here.


If you are super into a raiding game and watching a 15min fight video helps more power to you.  Personally I never watched or studied ANY encounter in my hardcore days because the truth was it's never a one shot and wow mechanics were never so hard for dps that I didn't figure it out by the second round.

People will always watch videos.  These games are very reward oriented.  If watching videos helps people get their reward with less effort, they will.  It is as simple as that.  It is the same reason people use 3rd party sites to help them get through quests super quickly. 

Heck, that's one of the reasons I like the idea of MMOs that are less progression oriented and focus more on world development. 
Lucas
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Reply #801 on: August 12, 2013, 07:27:06 AM

I agree, but games should stop making you the hero of the story.  This isn't a single player game, i want to be a random adventurer like i was in EQ, or part of an army like in SB.

Me too but I guess that, in the last 10 years, the market tried to (rightfully, from a business perspective, of course) exploit the larger amount of MMO population that want to gain teh phat lewt, and engage in all the "mini activities" that nowadays form a MMO.

Personally, even after all these years and failed/not successful enough projects, I'm still in the "social experiment" - sandbox party where I'm perfectly fine to be Mr. Nobody while exploring and engaging in roleplaying activities with a small portion of the population (but yeah, I'll keep playing DIKUs as well).

" He's so impatient, it's like watching a teenager fuck a glorious older woman." - Ironwood on J.J. Abrams
Sky
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Reply #802 on: August 12, 2013, 08:33:07 AM

The way I look at the MMO group vs solo argument is that I'm like Wolverine.  Most of the time I prefer to do stuff on my own because, in the context of the game, I'm pretty bad ass on my own.  However, when I need to tackle something more difficult, thats when I go with the rest of the X-Men.  Except for Cyclops.  Fuck that guy.  He's always trying to mow my lawn with Jean Grey.
I liked in Giant Sized X-Men 2 when Professor X made everyone sit and watch videos on how to avoid Magneto's area effect and deal with a Juggernaut add.
Draegan
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Reply #803 on: August 12, 2013, 08:37:26 AM


Not sure that's a direct equivalent, is an LoL player locked out of substantial content until they've proven they're hard-core? Do they get lesser versions of the same characters and gear?


MMOs don't lock you out of content, and raids are not substantial amounts of content either.

MMOs, with subs, give you equal access to everything. If you aren't good enough to beat a raid, that's on you. If you don't have enough time to beat a raid, that's on you. If you don't have enough friends to beat a raid, that's on you. If you don't like playing with X amount of players, that's on you.

Every game doesn't need to cater to you. If you want a game where you can do everything in the game, beat all the bosses and see everything by literally doing nothing, you have World of Warcraft.

Some games want specific bosses to be hard. So, if you happen to beat the Badass Dragon they want that experience and challenge to be uniform across the game. So when you tell a friend what you did, he doesn't go did you beat it in LFR? Normal? Heroic? Does he even care about that distinction? Does anyone care at that point when content is so diluted?

Part of the whole raid mentality is taking up the challenge and proving yourself against that challenge and being in a community that respects that and acknowledges that. It's the same thing when solo players gnash their teeth when people tell them to play a single player game instead. Solo players love playing MMORPGs because they like spending time in a world where they come across other players and they enjoy the experience of playing within a shared environment regardless of their direct interaction with other players. So that shared experience matters to them. In reverse, solo or casual players tell raiders, whats wrong with just doing the same raid but just harder? You get your challenge and I get to do the raid too in super easy mode.

Well the problem here is that raiders like the challenges of a difficult raid, and they also like showing off the shared acknowledgement that they completed it. When Mr Raider kills Bad Ass Dragon and tells a buddy what he did and that buddy can say, yeah I killed him to last week! It kind of dilutes the challenge. Raiders like the shared experience of that.

Now lets bring in League of Legends. They have managed to give Bronze level players the same content as Diamond players yet Riot has been able to give higher ranked players a clear distinction. A diamond level play is nearly a completely different game than a bronze level game.

If MMORPGs can somehow show off this distinction you can solve the problem of difficulties. The huge difference is that you can easily recognize skilled gameplay in a game like League whereas watching 20-40 people raid in any difficulty is mostly the same. People moving to avoid fire and spamming abilities. Of course the game-type is so different, it's probably impossible.
angry.bob
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Reply #804 on: August 12, 2013, 09:56:25 AM

Stuff

The problem with what you said is that none of what you said "dilutes" the challenge to you. If you and your raid want to do encounter on whatever difficulty level, the challenge to you in doing it is that same regardless of what difficulty other people do it on. What is diluted is your epeen. It dilutes your self perceived status as part of that world's power elite and the recognition you want for that forced onto other players. Raiding isn't challenging and it's barely an accomplishment. Stop making this out to be a "not good enough plebs" versus "elite skilled pros" debate to either make yourself feel better or muddy the argument. The argument that your raiding "challenge" is somehow diluted by a solo option for the same gear is literally no different than the argument that gay marriage ruins straight christian marriage. The real problem is that if there's a solo option raids will struggle to find enough people willing to do it.

Reread what you just posted. When you boil the fat away from the meat all it said was "I don't want filthy casuals having the same loot I have". The rest of it is bullshit rationalizing.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2013, 10:08:21 AM by angry.bob »

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muß man schweigen.
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