Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
March 28, 2024, 02:30:44 AM

Login with username, password and session length

Search:     Advanced search
we're back, baby
*
Home Help Search Login Register
f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  The Gaming Graveyard  |  MMOG Discussion  |  Topic: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar" 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Pages: 1 ... 15 16 [17] 18 19 ... 98 Go Down Print
Author Topic: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"  (Read 979239 times)
Lakov_Sanite
Terracotta Army
Posts: 7590


Reply #560 on: July 25, 2013, 09:33:31 AM

I don't think MMO's should be devoid of solo content but too many people want the solo content to be the same as the group content. "I want to one man raids" and that line of thinking is when you get homogenized dungeons so they can be scaled down.

Ideally an MMO should have enough fun solo content to keep people entertained but when they try to be all things to all people they tend to suffer.

~a horrific, dark simulacrum that glares balefully at us, with evil intent.
Paelos
Contributor
Posts: 27075

Error 404: Title not found.


Reply #561 on: July 25, 2013, 10:14:41 AM

Ask yourself the following question though. Do people really enjoy large scale raiding?

I'd contend that the vast majority of the players do not enjoy anything over 4-5 people, and see it as more of a hassle getting in their way.

CPA, CFO, Sports Fan, Game when I have the time
Nebu
Terracotta Army
Posts: 17613


Reply #562 on: July 25, 2013, 10:17:40 AM

People enjoy the spoils of raiding and often don't separate that from the exercise of raiding itself.  If they could get those same spoils using a group of 5, I'd bet that the majority would go that route instead.

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Paelos
Contributor
Posts: 27075

Error 404: Title not found.


Reply #563 on: July 25, 2013, 10:34:12 AM

People enjoy the spoils of raiding and often don't separate that from the exercise of raiding itself.  If they could get those same spoils using a group of 5, I'd bet that the majority would go that route instead.

I think the 10 and 25 man split of WoW follows that logic. 25 man raiding for the most part fell off the face of the earth when they introduced the same rewards across the tiers.

CPA, CFO, Sports Fan, Game when I have the time
Ceryse
Terracotta Army
Posts: 879


Reply #564 on: July 25, 2013, 10:57:09 AM

Ask yourself the following question though. Do people really enjoy large scale raiding?

I'd contend that the vast majority of the players do not enjoy anything over 4-5 people, and see it as more of a hassle getting in their way.

I'm probably in the minority, but I do enjoy the large scale raiding. The move to continually downsize the numbers involved are one of the reasons I'm not as into MMOs as I used to be. 20 is the bare minimum for me; I'm also not a huge fan of the smaller group content. I either want to solo, or work with as many as two others.. or at least 19 others. Anything in between just isn't for me.

That said, I have a love/hate relationship with any kind of grouping in MMOs. Love working with a lot of others to bring down content (including the organization/cat-herding aspect). Hate the fact I have to rely on x number of people to not be absolutely moronic.

As for what people will do or prefer? The majority will always go for the path of least resistance (which is always going to be fewer people due to making it easier and easier to organize) regardless of what they actually enjoy most.
Nebu
Terracotta Army
Posts: 17613


Reply #565 on: July 25, 2013, 11:00:57 AM

I love playing in a group of competent people.  My problems arise when all of the good players I know quit the game I'm playing.  You have to wade through so many terrible players in pve MMO's that rebuilding a group can seem like a monumental undertaking.  I don't even want to think about having to constantly fill a 10 or 25 man roster.  That's a nightmare in my mind and that doesn't even consider the rage I feel when one person consistently screws it up for the other 24, wasting their time in the process.

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Ingmar
Terracotta Army
Posts: 19280

Auto Assault Affectionado


Reply #566 on: July 25, 2013, 11:09:47 AM

Ask yourself the following question though. Do people really enjoy large scale raiding?

I often enjoy organized raiding in the 8-10 people zone. I don't mind it when it's 20+ type stuff as long as it is spontaneous everyone-in-the-zone-there's-a-monster-look-out sort of stuff. It's when you get the numbers up higher AND need to organize it all that I think it's not worth the bother.

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
Threash
Terracotta Army
Posts: 9165


Reply #567 on: July 25, 2013, 12:01:51 PM

Yeah, raiding needs to be done in the GW2 model.  Big dragon spawns, everyone on the server that wants to rushes over and kills it. 

I am the .00000001428%
Nevermore
Terracotta Army
Posts: 4740


Reply #568 on: July 25, 2013, 12:30:55 PM

The giant monster spawns in CoH and the recent giant monster event in TSW where both like that and they were a lot of fun.  Only problem with them is when /too many/ people show up and the lag monster rears its ugly head.

Over and out.
Threash
Terracotta Army
Posts: 9165


Reply #569 on: July 25, 2013, 12:53:31 PM

There is a lot of culling in GW2, in pve it doesn't bother me in the least but it seems to annoy some people.

I am the .00000001428%
Kageru
Terracotta Army
Posts: 4549


Reply #570 on: July 25, 2013, 03:13:11 PM

Yeah, raiding needs to be done in the GW2 model.  Big dragon spawns, everyone on the server that wants to rushes over and kills it.  

They already do. My guild chat is full of people watching timers for the next world spawn.

I don't think GW2 should bother trying to do raid content. They don't have the revenue stream, they more or less promised a flat power structure, their mechanics are poorly suited to it and the hard core raiders are still wedded to WoW. Their more casual gamer orientation is a comfortable and fitting market niche for them.

Now wildstar is promising raids so that will be interesting, and probably the reason they are talking about a "hybrid" subscription model and have a more cartoony and easy to extend art-style.

Is a man not entitled to the hurf of his durf?
- Simond
Ingmar
Terracotta Army
Posts: 19280

Auto Assault Affectionado


Reply #571 on: July 25, 2013, 03:31:24 PM

The giant monster spawns in CoH and the recent giant monster event in TSW where both like that and they were a lot of fun.  Only problem with them is when /too many/ people show up and the lag monster rears its ugly head.

The giant monsters in CoH were quite a lot more fun than the equvalents in GW2, IMO, I think because the more defined character roles and abilities in CoH made you feel much more like you were contributing in a specific way. At least for me.

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
luckton
Terracotta Army
Posts: 5947


Reply #572 on: July 26, 2013, 05:10:10 AM

There is also a segment of the population that actually wants to see the end-game content for the lorelol reasons.  They could care less about loot or how complex they make the fight; they want to play it as a single-player game would be played: for completion's sake and the story end.

"Those lights, combined with the polygamous Nazi mushrooms, will mess you up."

"Tuning me out doesn't magically change the design or implementation of said design. Though, that'd be neat if it did." -schild
Lakov_Sanite
Terracotta Army
Posts: 7590


Reply #573 on: July 26, 2013, 07:37:47 AM

There is also a segment of the population that actually wants to see the end-game content for the lorelol reasons.  They could care less about loot or how complex they make the fight; they want to play it as a single-player game would be played: for completion's sake and the story end.

Soloing the lich king is an incredibly stupid concept, just saying.

~a horrific, dark simulacrum that glares balefully at us, with evil intent.
angry.bob
Terracotta Army
Posts: 5442

We're no strangers to love. You know the rules and so do I.


Reply #574 on: July 26, 2013, 09:24:44 AM

Soloing the lich king is an incredibly stupid concept, just saying.

Indeed. When in the entirety of the many fiction genres has an individual hero, or a group of five or less accomplished anything of note? I double-dog dare anyone to come up with an example. Personally, I look back fondly on many afternoons reading about Conan farming yeti pelts and plant seeds to turn in for reputation points. Have we forgotten the gripping tale of Frodo and Sam waiting for Borimir to finish his corpse run and all those other guys to get their shit together, find another thirty or so guys, and then have someone pull mobs from the Black Gate until Mordor runs out of orcs and they can all move on to next stage?

« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 09:26:38 AM by angry.bob »

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muß man schweigen.
Kail
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2858


Reply #575 on: July 26, 2013, 09:30:13 AM

There is also a segment of the population that actually wants to see the end-game content for the lorelol reasons.  They could care less about loot or how complex they make the fight; they want to play it as a single-player game would be played: for completion's sake and the story end.

Soloing the lich king is an incredibly stupid concept, just saying.

Mechanically, maybe, but it makes sense in the context of WoW lore.  To the extent that WoW lore makes any sense at all.  The Lich King was just an orc shaman once upon a time, Arthas was just a regular guy until he found a magic sword, etc.  There's no reason another guy with an even more biggerer magicker sword +2 couldn't kill him.  Whatever god like powers he was given are only there by author fiat, there's no reason you can't give the players the same.

IIRC your raid doesn't even beat him in WoW, you just fight him until he gets bored and instakills everyone, and then he gets NPCed to death.  There's no reason you couldn't do that with one guy instead of ten.
Lakov_Sanite
Terracotta Army
Posts: 7590


Reply #576 on: July 26, 2013, 09:37:02 AM

Soloing the lich king is an incredibly stupid concept, just saying.

Indeed. When in the entirety of the many fiction genres has an individual hero, or a group of five or less accomplished anything of note? I double-dog dare anyone to come up with an example. Personally, I look back fondly on many afternoons reading about Conan farming yeti pelts and plant seeds to turn in for reputation points. Have we forgotten the gripping tale of Frodo and Sam waiting for Borimir to finish his corpse run and all those other guys to get their shit together, find another thirty or so guys, and then have someone pull mobs from the Black Gate until Mordor runs out of orcs and they can all move on to next stage?



The problem being that you are not the single greatest hero in the history of Azeroth. You are some schlub mercenary just like a thousand others walking around doing the same bullshit poop grabbing quests as you.  If the game in any way set you up to be an epic hero the likes of Conan it would make sense but it doesn't and you aren't.  Therefore fighting anything on scale of a dragon or demigod solo is ridiculous.

~a horrific, dark simulacrum that glares balefully at us, with evil intent.
Nebu
Terracotta Army
Posts: 17613


Reply #577 on: July 26, 2013, 09:43:02 AM

The problem being that you are not the single greatest hero in the history of Azeroth. You are some schlub mercenary just like a thousand others walking around doing the same bullshit poop grabbing quests as you.  If the game in any way set you up to be an epic hero the likes of Conan it would make sense but it doesn't and you aren't.  Therefore fighting anything on scale of a dragon or demigod solo is ridiculous.

I believe the key is to change the paradigm.  If you were to introduce skill to a point that some small percentage were capable of becoming epic heroes, perhaps that would provide incentive for players to either get better or stay in the game longer in an attempt to be better.  I think most of us are very sick of the time = power focus and would like some modification to time + skill = power.  The new metagame in WoT, for example, seems to be one of becoming elite in terms of statistics.  It's possible that many people are staying in game (i.e. decreased churn) for this reason alone.  It's not a bad idea given that most players can burn through content at a rate far greater than it can ever be generated.

Then there's the issue of NPC henchmen.  All heroes (and mercenaries) have access to henchmen if they have the money.  If I feel like I can do group content better by myself with 4 henchmen, why not let me?  It's really not much different from 2 good players dragging 3 scrubs through an encounter, is it?
« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 09:44:38 AM by Nebu »

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
angry.bob
Terracotta Army
Posts: 5442

We're no strangers to love. You know the rules and so do I.


Reply #578 on: July 26, 2013, 09:47:20 AM

*edit, directed at Lakov, not Nebu*
Says you. If you want to pay to be a faceless, generic cog in these games go for it. As far as I'm concerned I am the center of the universe, the person who the entirety of the game revolves around. All those other people playing, some of whom are a lot more powerful? They're the center of their own stories. They can be in the same story as me, but fuck them if they try to make their part more important than mine in my portion.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 09:49:03 AM by angry.bob »

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muß man schweigen.
Paelos
Contributor
Posts: 27075

Error 404: Title not found.


Reply #579 on: July 26, 2013, 10:42:11 AM

One MMO I can think of where skill plays a huge factor in how you are seen in game is Puzzle Pirates. There are rankings to the puzzles, along with titles that actually distinguish people as good at a particular job.

CPA, CFO, Sports Fan, Game when I have the time
Typhon
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2493


Reply #580 on: July 26, 2013, 10:44:22 AM

I agree with Bob.  I don't want to play Lakov's game, it sounds lame.  Bob do I need to force one of my friends to play a healer in your game?  Can we do without?  Or do you provide an AI healer?  If yes, shut up and take my money!
Nebu
Terracotta Army
Posts: 17613


Reply #581 on: July 26, 2013, 10:45:06 AM

One MMO I can think of where skill plays a huge factor in how you are seen in game is Puzzle Pirates. There are rankings to the puzzles, along with titles that actually distinguish people as good at a particular job.

Fantasy MMO's need more of this.  Titles that show a player to be in the top xx% in some ability (healing, support, dps) would do wonders.

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Ghambit
Terracotta Army
Posts: 5576


Reply #582 on: July 26, 2013, 11:03:34 AM

*edit, directed at Lakov, not Nebu*
Says you. If you want to pay to be a faceless, generic cog in these games go for it. As far as I'm concerned I am the center of the universe, the person who the entirety of the game revolves around. All those other people playing, some of whom are a lot more powerful? They're the center of their own stories. They can be in the same story as me, but fuck them if they try to make their part more important than mine in my portion.

Ironically, the most 'heroic' I've ever felt in gaming is within large raids/squads (when I know we all die if I fuckup, the mission will fail if I dont show at the rally point, or perhaps I didnt work hard enough grinding/crafting gear [I was the guy in my guild who did Cenarion Circle to keep pace with the rest of my guild that was already on Rags as I was just getting back into WoW]).  Solo gaming to me is NOT heroic; you're just playing out an on-rails storyline just like every other mundane who bought the game.  Any heroics in this sense is strictly locked up inside subjective experience due to storyline.  Similar can be said for small autogrouped & balanced instances wherein the magic wears off the moment the last boss goes down.  

So the more people you add to this equation, and the more difficult a task, the more important one becomes.  This is why in all my gaming history (tis lengthy), nothing comes close to vanilla WoW raids and early WW2O gameplay as for providing a sense of true heroics, importance, and tension.

Shit... heroics!?   awesome, for real   I've got a ton of stories for that.  None of them involve shit like solo-grinding scholomance.

"See, the beauty of webgames is that I can play them on my phone while I'm plowing your mom."  -Samwise
Nebu
Terracotta Army
Posts: 17613


Reply #583 on: July 26, 2013, 11:09:14 AM

Solo gaming to me is NOT heroic; you're just playing out an on-rails storyline just like every other mundane who bought the game.

That's because the MMO solo game is poorly designed and targeted at the ability of the below average gamer.  If some of the solo content required a significant skill component (like most single player games), then you would feel pretty damn spiffy about defeating a tough encounter.  Particularly if only a few people were similarly able to defeat it.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 11:11:05 AM by Nebu »

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Ingmar
Terracotta Army
Posts: 19280

Auto Assault Affectionado


Reply #584 on: July 26, 2013, 11:12:47 AM

Soloing the lich king is an incredibly stupid concept, just saying.

Indeed. When in the entirety of the many fiction genres has an individual hero, or a group of five or less accomplished anything of note? I double-dog dare anyone to come up with an example. Personally, I look back fondly on many afternoons reading about Conan farming yeti pelts and plant seeds to turn in for reputation points. Have we forgotten the gripping tale of Frodo and Sam waiting for Borimir to finish his corpse run and all those other guys to get their shit together, find another thirty or so guys, and then have someone pull mobs from the Black Gate until Mordor runs out of orcs and they can all move on to next stage?



The problem being that you are not the single greatest hero in the history of Azeroth. You are some schlub mercenary just like a thousand others walking around doing the same bullshit poop grabbing quests as you.  If the game in any way set you up to be an epic hero the likes of Conan it would make sense but it doesn't and you aren't.  Therefore fighting anything on scale of a dragon or demigod solo is ridiculous.

[MAJOR SPOILER] from the end of the Jedi Knight storyline in SWTOR puts the lie to this notion, as it applies to MMOs as a whole. There's no reason WoW couldn't be structured in a way to make you the center of the story instead of Thrall or whoever.

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
Phred
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2025


Reply #585 on: July 26, 2013, 11:22:52 AM

There is also a segment of the population that actually wants to see the end-game content for the lorelol reasons.  They could care less about loot or how complex they make the fight; they want to play it as a single-player game would be played: for completion's sake and the story end.

Some games just can't be made to please everyone.
Paelos
Contributor
Posts: 27075

Error 404: Title not found.


Reply #586 on: July 26, 2013, 11:49:00 AM

One MMO I can think of where skill plays a huge factor in how you are seen in game is Puzzle Pirates. There are rankings to the puzzles, along with titles that actually distinguish people as good at a particular job.

Fantasy MMO's need more of this.  Titles that show a player to be in the top xx% in some ability (healing, support, dps) would do wonders.

Yes, it would be very helpful, but it would probably piss off the bads and make them quit. So likely no dice.

CPA, CFO, Sports Fan, Game when I have the time
Trippy
Administrator
Posts: 23611


Reply #587 on: July 26, 2013, 11:57:40 AM

One MMO I can think of where skill plays a huge factor in how you are seen in game is Puzzle Pirates. There are rankings to the puzzles, along with titles that actually distinguish people as good at a particular job.
Fantasy MMO's need more of this.  Titles that show a player to be in the top xx% in some ability (healing, support, dps) would do wonders.
UO did this for crafting.
Lakov_Sanite
Terracotta Army
Posts: 7590


Reply #588 on: July 26, 2013, 12:10:09 PM

Don't confuse my statement for my own desires when it comes to narrative.
There is nothing in online games that makes you feel epic or heroic beyond the norm of the world(every other person is a hero)

If you want to believe you are, great, awesome but it's also completely in your head because the game itself does not tell you that. 
Then I'm forced to wonder, if you have to go through THAT much effort to try and be the hero in a game, why not just play a game where you are the hero?

I've done some awesome things in mmo's that made me feel heroic as part of a group, I've also done some awesomely badass things in solo games. In neither case did I have to go out of my way to set up a scenario where I had to augment the game narrative to enjoy myself.

~a horrific, dark simulacrum that glares balefully at us, with evil intent.
Abelian75
Terracotta Army
Posts: 678


Reply #589 on: July 26, 2013, 01:22:20 PM

There's plenty in the game that tells you so, for quite a few MMOs I have played.  WoW, for one.  There are numerous quests that reference how incredibly awesome you are and how thank god you are there because there is some serious shit going down and they need someone like you.

Yes, it doesn't make sense that there are thousands of epic, incredible heroes in the world, but that's because the worlds don't make sense.  You may choose to believe you are just a "pretty good" mercenary or whatever in MMOs these days, and I can see why that would be appealing, but there is no more validity to that belief than believing you are one of the greatest heroes of your age in WoW.  Plenty in the narrative supports that.

This reminds me of the hilarious anger when people were like "OMG HOW COULD 25 PEOPLE KILL ILLIDAN THAT'S RIDICULOUS."  There aren't, like, "power levels" in real life, or even in most fiction.  Games have them because they are games, but even the goddamn narratives of games don't have them in anywhere near as rigid a sense.  There aren't "levels" of heroism.  If you go out and constantly solve hideous problems and vanquish horrible, evil foes on a daily basis, well fuck, you are a miraculous goddamn hero.  Yes, there are a thousand heroes in WoW because it makes no sense.  You can't make it make sense as a whole.  You just have to choose what to consider real and what to consider a game abstraction.

My point in all this rambling is that MMOs are even more impossibly weird than most games where you kill 1000 people, and it's silly to act like there's some "correct" way to interpret exactly how much of a hero you are and who it would be ridiculous for you to be able to kill.
Ingmar
Terracotta Army
Posts: 19280

Auto Assault Affectionado


Reply #590 on: July 26, 2013, 01:37:13 PM

One MMO I can think of where skill plays a huge factor in how you are seen in game is Puzzle Pirates. There are rankings to the puzzles, along with titles that actually distinguish people as good at a particular job.

Fantasy MMO's need more of this.  Titles that show a player to be in the top xx% in some ability (healing, support, dps) would do wonders.

Yes, it would be very helpful, but it would probably piss off the bads and make them quit. So likely no dice.

As long as you can't see the entire chart and it's just a reward/prestige thing for the people who make the list, I don't see why it would cause a problem. A bigger (potential) issue is coming up with a measurement system that doesn't cause behaviors that are actually detrimental in an actual encounter but get you farther up a list.

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
Sjofn
Terracotta Army
Posts: 8286

Truckasaurus Hands


Reply #591 on: July 26, 2013, 01:45:04 PM

One MMO I can think of where skill plays a huge factor in how you are seen in game is Puzzle Pirates. There are rankings to the puzzles, along with titles that actually distinguish people as good at a particular job.

Oh, the heady days when I was ULTIMATE rank in four puzzles.

God Save the Horn Players
Paelos
Contributor
Posts: 27075

Error 404: Title not found.


Reply #592 on: July 26, 2013, 01:52:21 PM

I was ultimate in sailing. For some reason I can't bilge. Like at all.

CPA, CFO, Sports Fan, Game when I have the time
Rasix
Moderator
Posts: 15024

I am the harbinger of your doom!


Reply #593 on: July 26, 2013, 01:59:20 PM

It's because you're bad.  LFM Blackjack raid, need someone that can actually bilge.

-Rasix
Paelos
Contributor
Posts: 27075

Error 404: Title not found.


Reply #594 on: July 26, 2013, 02:04:32 PM

It's because you're bad.

Well obviously.

CPA, CFO, Sports Fan, Game when I have the time
Pages: 1 ... 15 16 [17] 18 19 ... 98 Go Up Print 
f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  The Gaming Graveyard  |  MMOG Discussion  |  Topic: Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"  
Jump to:  

Powered by SMF 1.1.10 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC