Star Trek Online - "Boldly going where Everyone has gone before"

[stray]

Yeah, but the Defiant was like... the only one, right? Why do you think Worf was such a cockblocker about it?

[Draegan]

If you're ever going to have space battle it would have to be done by shipping date I think.  I would think you can't just add a shit ton of new content that completely changes the game after the game is "established".

I think the best ship combat would have to be instanced so to speak, or scripted.  You and your part of engineers, scientists and captains, etc all board a big ship.  You then have different objectives as a bridge crew or engineering crew and complete objectives.  The whole ship becomes the "zone" you play in.  You react to sirens and data feeds.  Only thing is that there is no shiny graphics and space combat with that.  You're stuck tooling away at the warp core.

Space Combat SIM is better left to Wing Commander etc, I agree.

[geldonyetich2]

I think that some unexplored ground that Star Trek Online should look into is the idea of capital ships that require multiple players to operate.  It works fairly well in the Star Trek MU*s - you have multiple consoles set up (Helm, Engineering, Tactical, Captain, ect) and players can only operate one at a time.

Of course, a fighter or shuttle craft is something else entirely.

[Mrbloodworth]

Yeah, but the Defiant was like... the only one, right? Why do you think Worf was such a cockblocker about it?

No, it wasn't, its was just the first, and the name was the same as the class. 3 total appeared in the DS9 series. The defiant, some other commanded by red squad (Star fleet academy elites gone roge) and another was given to cicso again after the first was destroyed.

Nerd points +5

I think that some unexplored ground that Star Trek Online should look into is the idea of capital ships that require multiple players to operate.  It works fairly well in the Star Trek MU*s - you have multiple consoles set up (Helm, Engineering, Tactical, Captain, ect) and players can only operate one at a time.

Of course, a fighter or shuttle craft is something else entirely.

When i think about it, multiple player means only the command crew. Capitan, 2nd, science, medical, engineering and tactical officer. Hay look...thats 6. Every one else on the ship is an NPC, and you can relieve them at any point, and if you leave, someone takes your place (NPC), just like the shows. I wrote up a short design doc for a game i want to make, and it works this way..i just lack all the skills, and money to do it all myself.

[stray]

Oh yeah, the red squad. Either way, there weren't many though. War and Defiant class starships wasn't really the objective of Starfleet...And they ended up just kamikaze-ing and zerging the Dominion in the end.

[Mrbloodworth]

Oh yeah, the red squad. Either way, there weren't many though. War and Defiant class starships wasn't really the objective of Starfleet...And they ended up just kamikaze-ing and zerging the Dominion in the end.

I understand, but they do have them. Including small fighter craft. I also recall some super fancy shuttle pod on voyager..i don't recall much..but i think it was s really fast or had teeth or something. I also believe the defiant class was a response to the borg, not necessarily the dominion.

EDIT: after digging, i had totally forgotten about the Prometheus-class.

[geldonyetich2]

I'd rather have an exploration one... Hell, Starfleet only if it came down to it. Star Trek combat sucks. I don't care much for tactical/submarine like warfare. Not exciting! Give me dogfighting/Wing Commander instead.

Some games have shown that it can actually be both.

[Typhon]

Combat wasn't really the point of the show.  [...]  I guess to market it to the masses you'd have to make it kill-a-klingon-liscious.

I think you are dead-on here (save for original series, which you could do as "beam to alien planet and fight alien speices which is trying to kill, LOOK! a hot alien chick!).  Which, IMO, reinforces schild argument that this IP sucks for MMO games.  People play games to be aggressive, why would anyone want to play a game with a social-straightjacket like the Federation insists upon.  "let's go online so we can talk about social issues!"   Zzzzzzzzz!!!

Coourse, you could go alternate universe where Federation, Klingon and Romulan are all at war and you get Mythic to make it... later, you could have an expansion called "Trials of Orion".

[Mrbloodworth]

Combat wasn't really the point of the show.  [...]  I guess to market it to the masses you'd have to make it kill-a-klingon-liscious.

I think you are dead-on here (save for original series, which you could do as "beam to alien planet and fight alien speices which is trying to kill, LOOK! a hot alien chick!).  Which, IMO, reinforces schild argument that this IP sucks for MMO games.  People play games to be aggressive, why would anyone want to play a game with a social-straightjacket like the Federation insists upon.  "let's go online so we can talk about social issues!"   Zzzzzzzzz!!!

Coourse, you could go alternate universe where Federation, Klingon and Romulan are all at war and you get Mythic to make it... later, you could have an expansion called "Trials of Orion".

If you choose the time frame right, this becomes a non-issue. (Borg/ dominion wars, or some war with a race in the future.) That and i have allways thought the different MOS's should be different play styles.

[stray]

People play games to be aggressive, why would anyone want to play a game with a social-straightjacket like the Federation insists upon.  "let's go online so we can talk about social issues!"   Zzzzzzzzz!!!

There aren't enough games like this, in my opinion.


[EDIT]

Mythic.


No.

[Typhon]

People play games to be aggressive, why would anyone want to play a game with a social-straightjacket like the Federation insists upon.  "let's go online so we can talk about social issues!"   Zzzzzzzzz!!!

There aren't enough games like this, in my opinion.

Are you trying to fag up another thread?!

[stray]

Actually no. I'm being sincere about that. Few game developers choose to do anything other than cater to our most juvenile impulses. And Star Trek should be a little more evolved than that. Don't get me wrong, I like running over pedestrians and shooting people as much as the next guy, but I probably had more fun gaming in the 90's, when the market was flooded with adventure titles.

[Ratman_tf]

Actually no. I'm being sincere about that. Few game developers choose to do anything other than cater to our most juvenile impulses. And Star Trek should be a little more evolved than that. Don't get me wrong, I like running over pedestrians and shooting people as much as the next guy, but I probably had more fun gaming in the 90's, when the market was flooded with adventure titles.

Indeed. It would be the proverbial WoW with Star Trek skins. And a game like that would not appease the Trek fanbase at all. It would be Sims Online all over again.

[Merusk]

but I probably had more fun gaming in the 90's, when the market was flooded with adventure titles.

Amen.

YOU may play games to be aggressive, Typhon, but don't assume everyone does.  I love a good game of Civs where I don't have to annhiliate all my competition, or even Sim City or The Sims.  Fuck, I was an entertainer/ merchant in SWG and I get a bigger kick out of crafting in most mmos than beating shit up forever. (Tho I do it so I can explore more)

There's a very large market out there for explorer/ socializer games. 

Problem is
 1) There's too few people who understand how to do it well. (Programming killing is easy, yo.)
 2) It's seen as 'too girly' by machismo-addled geeks who still fume at getting beat-up in high school. (Yes that's a troll, but ask Dave how often he gets ridden about making Virtual Horse Rancher. I'll bet it's a lot.)
 3) The time frame to generate good content to keep an explorer happy > the time to consume/ explore it.

[Venkman]

STO has a lot more opportunity to appeal to a wider cross section of players than SWG did. The latter missed specifically because it lacked two hallmarks of SW: lightsabers and spaceships. But ST could skip or include a bunch of different things and still be a "Trek" experience.

It could even be WoW with Vulcans and do fine. The IP just isn't compelling enough atm to turn the head of the big companies.

I think that some unexplored ground that Star Trek Online should look into is the idea of capital ships that require multiple players to operate.

I like this aspect of SWG. But you don't need a specialized Trek-esque control panel. Just start with multiple-people ships like the Y8 and Millenium Falcon and go. Proven to work already.

Trouble is Trek ships were all aircraft carriers and battleships for the most part where the SW ships we mostly saw were one-seaters and small stuff with the big capital ships in the background. You'd need to go Defiant at least, maybe Voyager like, and leave the biggest ships for zones or whatnot, to keep that personal connection between player-character and ship.

[Typhon]

but I probably had more fun gaming in the 90's, when the market was flooded with adventure titles.

Amen.

YOU may play games to be aggressive, Typhon, but don't assume everyone does.  I love a good game of Civs where I don't have to annhiliate all my competition, or even Sim City or The Sims.  Fuck, I was an entertainer/ merchant in SWG and I get a bigger kick out of crafting in most mmos than beating shit up forever. (Tho I do it so I can explore more)
[...]

My point was that this IP (which is expensive) is a poor choice because an expensive IP should aim for mass market because, well, it's already expensive.  That this IP seems ear-marked for non-combat-focused play styles (which are typically niche games) makes it a poor choice.

I play and enjoy a variety of game styles.  That doesn't distract me from recognizing that the mass market loves to beat the hell out of mindless critters.  I'm all for someone finding the right way to put together a game of a type that has previously only been niche in such a way that it goes mass-market, but I think using an expensive IP is a poor choice to try to achieve that goal.

Edit: spelling, grammar

[stray]

I don't know what the mass market is anymore. Kind of a chicken and egg thing there. Especially with MMO's. Few even try anything different, and if they do, it's ends being fubar'ed anyways. How the hell is anyone supposed to know what people truly like that way?

[Akkori]

WHat about a game where you pick your Ship (server), which is one of the many StarFleet has in operation. You play a crew member, of course, but as your Ship heads out into the unknown, the crew members are responsible for plotting the course (through a vote system, or an internal competition of some kind). The crew also enhances or detracts from the efficiency of the Ship though your assigned duties. If the crew collectively does a good job (making stuff, fighting aliens, protecting from pirates, guarding the officers on away missions, filling crew needs through crafting, etc...) over the course of some time period (weeks at least), the ship discovers new territories, new content, new rewards, faster rank for the crew, and, more importantly *bragging rights* between all Star Fleet Ships.

Not really new stuff taken individually, but I don't recall ever hearing about an MMORPG that allowed each individual server to become rather unique through the actions of the players. Of course, this would mean the game would need a robust space combat system, a deep crafting system, a twitch ground combat game (ala BF2), and great AI. But then again, any game out there right now would probably benefit from that list, heh.

[geldonyetich2]

That's good.  However, if it were me, I would indoctrinate the players thinking.  Okay, that was a mild exaggeration.  Here's what I'm thinking:

Start everybody out in the Starfleet Academy.  Put them through a rigorous, interactive training process for their chosen profession.  (Note that the training process isn't just a tutorial, it's considered part of the game, it's supposed to be fun.)  Actual players (with developer moderation) run these training programs.  When it's determined that you're both (A) adequately trained to fulfill your duties for the faction and (B) not a total spaz you are then able to be assigned to serve aboard a ship.  Therein begins the main game, with your virtual Starfleet career, perhaps with lots of nifty promotions and maybe one day you'll even end up a captain of a starship.

The only trouble with this approach is it that you're basically screening anybody who doesn't take the game seriously.  Maybe we can siphon them off to a luxurious life as a carnivorous grief-tribble or something.

That's it, my head's too full of ideas to keep them locked up, back to learning Java.

[rk47]

Actually that's a good idea geldon. I really hate tutorials that are too accepting of idiots who have no idea what their class are capable of. They really need to have tutorials that show a PVP or PVE at high level so people at least get a general idea of what their class supposed to do in some situations, not just 'dps lulz'

[stray]

The only trouble with this approach is it that you're basically screening anybody who doesn't take the game seriously.  Maybe we can siphon them off to a luxurious life as a carnivorous grief-tribble or something.

Or this guy..



Which is actually who I'd prefer to be.

Either that, or Ensign Ro (the imcompetent one who got her away team killed)

[Ghambit]

WHat about a game where you pick your Ship (server), which is one of the many StarFleet has in operation. You play a crew member, of course, but as your Ship heads out into the unknown, the crew members are responsible for plotting the course (through a vote system, or an internal competition of some kind). The crew also enhances or detracts from the efficiency of the Ship though your assigned duties. If the crew collectively does a good job (making stuff, fighting aliens, protecting from pirates, guarding the officers on away missions, filling crew needs through crafting, etc...) over the course of some time period (weeks at least), the ship discovers new territories, new content, new rewards, faster rank for the crew, and, more importantly *bragging rights* between all Star Fleet Ships.

Not really new stuff taken individually, but I don't recall ever hearing about an MMORPG that allowed each individual server to become rather unique through the actions of the players. Of course, this would mean the game would need a robust space combat system, a deep crafting system, a twitch ground combat game (ala BF2), and great AI. But then again, any game out there right now would probably benefit from that list, heh.

This is precisely the same idea I had.  It's basically the sandbox within the sandbox, within the sandbox.  You basically have a system similar to ryzom ring or merely a gross example of instanced housing, where each ship is an instance or server in its own right.  Each server is GMed by a "Q" who monitors the goings-on in that particular server and moderates his/her universe (the Q could be the server admin/owner actually).  Everything that gets explored in each server is uploaded to a master server that fleshes out to all the other servers... along with stats, etc. (parallelism)  Somewhat like a Spore model, where a person's creatures and civs are uploaded to a master server for others to explore - done with small bits of code that represent larger elements.

The Starfleet element could be a server unto itself, where politics, resource management, and mission creation are the main gaming elements.  As ships come "online" players can be assigned posts dependent on their individual expertises.  Basically, Starfleet is the "player lounge."

A player could conceivably take on the role of admiral, politician, crafter, omnipotent Q, starship captain, or rogue pirate.... not to mention any race represented in the UFP.  Along with all that, they can play "God" and create their own universe on their own server boxes.

The "Q" would of course have their own "Continuum server" to act as their player lounge.  This continuum would simply be the conglomeration of the tools they'd need to flesh out and monitor their universes, along with the usual chat and metagames.  The catch is, every Q's universe is ultimately effected by the other's.  This creates an inherent game "balance" that the Q's must maintain to exact their own existences and supports the idea of Universal Entropy.

Couple all this with Permadeath, robust ranking, reputation, and inherent twitch skills and RL understanding of your character's role (i.e. you actually should have to know the processes involved in rerouting power, plotting a course, or repairing a plasma injector)... and you've got a good ST game IMO.

[rk47]

Don't touch that Permadeath button....

[WindupAtheist]

Hey guys.  The real world called.  It wants me to remind you that none of the stuff you're talking about would sell enough to make developing it worthwhile in the first place.

[geldonyetich2]

I'm honestly not so sure about that.  Where's our past precedent that says that games have to not take themselves seriously to sell well?

[UnSub]

I'm honestly not so sure about that.  Where's our past precedent that says that games have to not take themselves seriously to sell well?

I'm looking at the "we won't let you pass the tutorial map until you play it up to a standard we feel is appropriate" and the "enforced teaming because that's what happens in ST" and know that this can't be serious.

Plus: sandboxes suck. There, I said it. I don't now, and will never, play an online game to pretend it's my second life other job. Game > sandbox to most people who don't obsess about this kind of thing.

There is no way that a ST MMO could appear fully formed without a length of time and budget unheard of in MMO development circles. The only way a ST MMO is going to happen is as PE ironically started their planning - to get a few key systems up and working, then adding other stuff over time.

[stray]

Sandboxes and "joblike" experiences have nothing to do with each other. Ideally, a sandbox is supposed to be dynamic enough so as to give players more than ONE thing to do. And plenty of titles (almost all of them actually) that set out to be "games" or call themselves games are nothing but "joblike". They all reward repetitive foozle whacking, and offer little else.

[Mrbloodworth]

I'm honestly not so sure about that.  Where's our past precedent that says that games have to not take themselves seriously to sell well?

I'm looking at the "we won't let you pass the tutorial map until you play it up to a standard we feel is appropriate" and the "enforced teaming because that's what happens in ST" and know that this can't be serious.

Plus: sandboxes suck. There, I said it. I don't now, and will never, play an online game to pretend it's my second life other job. Game > sandbox to most people who don't obsess about this kind of thing.

There is no way that a ST MMO could appear fully formed without a length of time and budget unheard of in MMO development circles. The only way a ST MMO is going to happen is as PE ironically started their planning - to get a few key systems up and working, then adding other stuff over time.

Sand boxes are all about player enabling tools and a nice backdrop (No, im not advocating user content on the 3d art ETC.. level).

What you do with them is up to you.....

[Simond]

Going back to the TV series discussion tangent (which was both more productive and more interesting than the main thrust of the thread which appears to be a lot of people proving that they didn't learn a single god-damned thing from SWG): New Trek TV series?

Klingons. (Or Romulans, Cardassians, or whatever). Leave Starfleet alone except as occasional antagonists, focus on a Klingon cruiser on patrol. Hell, they could get away with setting it at the same time as TNG/DS9 and just retelling things from an alternate PoV.

[Ratman_tf]

Plus: sandboxes suck. There, I said it.

#1 PC game of all time beyotch.

[stray]

Going back to the TV series discussion tangent (which was both more productive and more interesting than the main thrust of the thread which appears to be a lot of people proving that they didn't learn a single god-damned thing from SWG): New Trek TV series?

Klingons. (Or Romulans, Cardassians, or whatever). Leave Starfleet alone except as occasional antagonists, focus on a Klingon cruiser on patrol. Hell, they could get away with setting it at the same time as TNG/DS9 and just retelling things from an alternate PoV.

Well, like I said earlier to Geldon, I like the Roddenberry commie-hippy stuff. By that I mean his utopian take on the future, not necessarily crystal spaceships and trippy time portals. I don't think Star Trek is really Star Trek without it. And I'd always want the stories to have Starfleet at the forefront, because that's what they represent.

I think there definitely need to be more stories about Romulans though. I watched each series back to back a few years ago, and still know nothing about them.

[Ratman_tf]

I think there definitely need to be more stories about Romulans though. I watched each series back to back a few years ago, and still know nothing about them.

They're evil Vulcans with cloaking devices. Not sure if there's anything more to know. 

[Morat20]

Couple all this with Permadeath

Congratulations. Your game is an epic failure.

Here's a bit, fat, juicy fucking hint from the real world: Role-playing games and perma-death do not get along. They are two things that never, ever, go together.

People like their characters. They give them names. They play them for hours and hours. And they do not wish to reroll them because the baby cried at the wrong moment, and especially not because some jackass named "E3ltrt" or whatever decided to gank them while they were off taking a piss.

[Venimor]

> Well, like I said earlier to Geldon, I like the Roddenberry commie-hippy stuff. By that I mean his utopian take on the future, not necessarily crystal spaceships and trippy time portals. I don't think Star Trek is really Star Trek without it. And I'd always want the stories to have Starfleet at the forefront, because that's what they represent.


That 'Roddenberry commie-hippy stuff' that you like was window-dressing and propaganda at best, and drama-killer at worst. Roddenberry used it to lame the scripts of better Trek writers than himself.

Roddenberry was an LAPD beat-cop who penned simplistic, hackity morality-play TV scripts for westerns and cop shows, and parlayed that into becoming a producer of questionable ability. The silly utopian propaganda that he came up with was a duck-blind for some rather extreme right-wing views on the use of force. When it came to Star Trek, established science fiction writers had to hobble around with the Prime Directive preventing them from doing anything fun or interesting with the characters, whereas Roddenberry's involvement with Trek scripts often led to blatant gunboat diplomacy or displays of advanced technology to settle issues. Being constrained by the ethics of Jainist monks when it comes to new worlds to explore is no fun at all, but Trek fans demand that it be part of the experience.

It is this core inconsistency in the underlying philosophy which remains today in the license, and which destroys so much of the potential of what Star Trek could be. It is one of the various and sundry reasons why Trek games tend to suck despite all of the fervor that gets them made.

Good luck with your Trek MMO, Perpetual Paramount.  

[Draegan]

There is a lot of hate in that post.