Blizzard giving PvE to PvP transfers to friends

[Morat20]

Are you having that hard a time finding a group ?

Apparently some people are finding it very difficult to do end game instances due to being on a low population server.

I'm on a high-pop server, and finding Scarlet Monastary groups remains a bitch. I finally had to get a guildie to handle the Armory for me. I have to go back to the Library -- I need a staff upgrade, and he's got a nice one.

[Xanthippe]

Lower instance grouping pretty much doesn't happen on my server.  People get 70s to run them through stuff.

I assume this is the case on most servers with post-60 population, and seems a normal part of the mmo experience (and a flaw at that which could be remedied fairly nicely - see CoX's sidekick option).

But when you can't raid the endgame - as so many people want to do - that's really a tough problem that needs a solution of some sort.  Server mergers or just instance merges?

[Modern Angel]

Lower instance grouping pretty much doesn't happen on my server.  People get 70s to run them through stuff.

I assume this is the case on most servers with post-60 population, and seems a normal part of the mmo experience (and a flaw at that which could be remedied fairly nicely - see CoX's sidekick option).

But when you can't raid the endgame - as so many people want to do - that's really a tough problem that needs a solution of some sort.  Server mergers or just instance merges?

Or force the issue and allow pve to pvp transfers.

WoW at the endgame is raiding. Whether that's good or not is a different argument. The pve servers, even the medium and high pop ones, are almost universally in a very poor state. Everyone in their right mind supports the change: the casuals who want to spice things up but chose poorly, the guys who want to play with some friends but their friends are on the pvp server,  the raiding guilds who want to recruit a gem on a pve server, the raiders on pve servers who have a shitty recruitment pool... everyone is grumbling about this because it's fucking dumb.

This isn't some secondhand thing here. We've essentially crapped out on raiding because even though we're on a medium pop pve server there simply is not a recruitment pool of decent players. It's not there and it's not going to be there. If they actually institute the lowered levelling time pre-60 in a timely fashion (HA!) there are strong indications we may reroll. Yeah, that's a good solution for server crowding: force everyone to hit up the pvp servers if they're interested in endgame content, make the pve servers even worse as far as in-game talent and don't change a thing.

[Nonentity]

Pretty much 90% of the top raiding guilds are all on PvP servers.

Just sayin'.

[Chimpy]

It all comes back to the horde/alliance population imbalance from the beginning. If Blizzard had made even one serious attempt at keeping some form of population balance on the whole, I think a lot of these issues would have been less glaring now. A lot of the "problems" can be traced back 2+ years.

But at this point, Blizzard does not care about what the health of their population is, as long as they retain a good amount of people until the next expansion, they are happy. And even with the "poor" state of raiding on PvE realms, a lot of their customers who like to raid will continue to play, and many of them will do so and pay 25 bucks every 3 months to change realms.

[Chenghiz]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I recall the population imbalance being actually pretty marginal on PVP servers. I don't think this is a matter of imbalance at all; just a matter of people wanting to keep their options open. I briefly rerolled on an Alliance PVE server to level up with a friend before quitting that character, partially because the population was just horribly stupid and partially because I would never have had the chance to transfer that character to a PVP server if I so desired later on. I think it's that second factor that has caused PVP servers to be more populous.

[Trouble]

FoH on their first Kael'thas kill got an Ashes of Al'ar (1% droprate) which went to Furor. FoH on their first Illidan kill got one of the Legendary Blades of Azzinoth (rough 5% droprate). Probably coincidental of course, but who doesn't like more flames for the fire?

[Fabricated]

The 1-60 game isn't that bad if you only try to find PuGs for popular instances. For alliance I haven't ever really had trouble finding pugs for Deadmines, (ugh) Gnomer, Uldaman, Sunken Temple (because everyone HAS to get their dumb class quest done). You can find the odd group of people who wanna hit BRD/Maraudon, but most people don't bother with those anymore.

I can NEVER get a pug for Shadowfang Keep despite it being a kickass instance. Blackfathom Deeps/Razorfen Bore 1 and 2 I can kinda live without.

This is on Proudmoore, which is a release-day PvE server with a piss-poor recruiting pool. If I didn't like the people in my little guild so much I'd ditch in a second for a better server. PvP servers lick my balls though. Fuck any server where some asshole can ruin my questing/grouping.

[caladein]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I recall the population imbalance being actually pretty marginal on PVP servers. I don't think this is a matter of imbalance at all; just a matter of people wanting to keep their options open.

Alliance to Horde ratios:

All 70s: 1.4 : 1
PvP 70s: 1 : 1.1
PvE 70s: 2.1 : 1

Also, I don't really think it's a serious issue for the vast majority of the player base. But when some well progressed guild says "LF1 *your class/spec* with *your stats*" and your response can only be "God damn transfer restrictions" that sort of feeling tends to bubble up with stories like these.

As for the low-level instances... one 70 can trivialize ZF or lower, so they're probably not going to get run much in an actual PuG.

[Azazel]

J. Kaplan disappeared after his guild's little fiasco

tell me more about this

[Phred]

J. Kaplan disappeared after his guild's little fiasco

tell me more about this

Someone said he meant GFrazier and I think they must be right because I don't remember any fiasco involving Legacy of Steel.

[Azazel]

cool. tell me about that instead.

[Trippy]

http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=1884.0

GFrazier was/is Blizzard's Web guy (it's not clear if he's still there). He ran his own guld callled "Kali Compton" which was one of the more visible and vocal ones during Beta. They were basically hated by everybody (Alliance and Horde) for their PvP zerg and ganking tactics and corpse camping. Shortly after release Blizzard instituted a strict guild naming policy which include a restriction on including real life locations in the name and such. People complained that Kali Campton violated that rule but nothing was being done about it. GF either deleted some of those posts himself or get a moderator friend to do it and I think he got somebody banned in game as well for posting some personal but publically available information about him on the forums. When all that was discovered his guild was disbanded and he promptly "disappeared" from the face of the Internet never to be heard from again.

[Ironwood]

Good.  I remember that.  He was fucking stupid.

[Phred]

He's still at Blizzard. He replied to a suggestion I sent in about searches on the Armory.

[Modern Angel]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I recall the population imbalance being actually pretty marginal on PVP servers. I don't think this is a matter of imbalance at all; just a matter of people wanting to keep their options open.

Alliance to Horde ratios:

All 70s: 1.4 : 1
PvP 70s: 1 : 1.1
PvE 70s: 2.1 : 1

Also, I don't really think it's a serious issue for the vast majority of the player base. But when some well progressed guild says "LF1 *your class/spec* with *your stats*" and your response can only be "God damn transfer restrictions" that sort of feeling tends to bubble up with stories like these.

As for the low-level instances... one 70 can trivialize ZF or lower, so they're probably not going to get run much in an actual PuG.

Yeah, but it's more than that. The endgame is designed around being mobile and having a full field of vision now. PvP players learn early on to heal on the move, to always watch out around them, as they level. On any given pve server people don't learn that early on. Also, where do you think the housewives and sixty year old guys wanting to see what their kids are up to go? Not gank central.

So you don't just get a concentration of players into griefing and ganking on a pvp server but a concentration of GOOD players. Then it compounds itself because a good player in a mediocre guild finally says "Fuck it" and heads over to a pvp server, too. Seriously, I'm not hyperbolising when I say that the player base is not good enough to do the backend raids on most pve servers. We've crapped out post-Gruul because we cannot find people who can do this shit and it's the easy stuff. My server has one Vashj kill; other pve servers are even worse where you have a Gruul kill, some KZ clears and that's IT.

[Ironwood]

He's still at Blizzard. He replied to a suggestion I sent in about searches on the Armory.

He can be at Blizzard if he wants.  As long as he's quiet.

[Azazel]

http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=1884.0

Thanks. BTW reply #5 from Schild is worth some lolzors.

[Trippy]

http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=1884.0

Thanks. BTW reply #5 from Schild is worth some lolzors.

And he thinks he should be paid to consult for MMORPG companies :-D

[Kalei]

As with all these games, it seems that expecting people not to cheat when the opportunity arises is like telling them not to breathe.  Everyone expects it, even accepts it, but the bottom line is, the game loses its integrity and it pisses people off when they find out.

With that said, somewhat of a fix may lie in having your employees play on their own private server.  That way they can get the experience needed to see the problems in the world but not try to mesh with the general public.

It seems to me that even by working for the company, you are privy to even water-cooler information that would give you an advantage and that's not good for business.

[Kalei]

http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=1884.0

GFrazier was/is Blizzard's Web guy (it's not clear if he's still there). He ran his own guld callled "Kali Compton" which was one of the more visible and vocal ones during Beta. They were basically hated by everybody (Alliance and Horde) for their PvP zerg and ganking tactics and corpse camping. Shortly after release Blizzard instituted a strict guild naming policy which include a restriction on including real life locations in the name and such. People complained that Kali Campton violated that rule but nothing was being done about it. GF either deleted some of those posts himself or get a moderator friend to do it and I think he got somebody banned in game as well for posting some personal but publically available information about him on the forums. When all that was discovered his guild was disbanded and he promptly "disappeared" from the face of the Internet never to be heard from again.

I never heard that one.  Interesting.

[ajax34i]

It seems to me that even by working for the company, you are privy to even water-cooler information that would give you an advantage and that's not good for business.

The advantage is bigger in a PvP game than in a PvE game.  And for both, you could make sure that whatever advantage there is, it still takes a large investment of TIME to reap the rewards.

[Ralence]

Or force the issue and allow pve to pvp transfers.

  When they do increase the exp pre-60, whenever that happens, I won't be one bit surprised if they use that as an excuse to allow the PvE->PvP server transfers.  It will essentially mean that even levelling on a PvE server would have taken you as long as the new exp system as it would currently on a PvP server based on their logic.  And if they don't, once people start re-rolling because it's even easier to level on a PvP server, I think they'll be forced to make the decision at some point.

  The largest problem I see now is that the low-level populations are just not present, at least not on the three servers I've tried.  Finding a tank for any instance pre-50 is fairly non-existant, healers being the second most desired, and lacking class.  There is however, no shortage of Mages or Warlocks.

[Jayce]

  When they do increase the exp pre-60, whenever that happens,

What?  First I've heard of that.

[caladein]

  When they do increase the exp pre-60, whenever that happens,

What?  First I've heard of that.

At Blizzcon they said they wanted to speed up leveling from 20 to 60 through: an increase in quest experience in those levels, a decrease in total experience required, a retuning of zones (Dustwallow Marsh was mentioned), and the change of some group quests into normal ones (Stromgarde in Arathi and the Ogre quests in Alterac were mentioned).

[Xanthippe]

Looking forward to it.  I've gotten 3 to 60 or higher, and really don't want to level any others unless they rework 20-60.

[Fabricated]

It'd be nice if they reworked the elite quests in Arathi and Alterac...those were hard to find groups for even right after release.

[Simond]

I think I read somewhere that most world elites in Azeroth, barring named, etc, are being turned into normal mobs. I'm pretty sure that Stromgarde was specifically mentioned as well.

[Ironwood]

Doesn't that halve the experience tho ?

:)

[Simond]

Personally speaking I'd rather have less xp per formerly-elite mob + soloable quest than elite mobs xp + unsoloable until green/grey, what wiith the tweaks to the 21-58 xp curve & across-the-board 30% increase in quest reward xp that will go live at the same time as the mob changes.

[Sogrinaugh]

Kail, i can't believe you are not embarassed to say that crap.  PvP servers are not a bug, or stupidly designed boss encounter.  The fact that see nothing wrong with something so blatantly hypocritical is disturbing.  Another expansion is on the way (so gear doesn't matter much), they are changing the xp curve (so leveling a new character should be much less painful), if you want to stomp noobs that bad re fucking roll and endure it yourself, else fuck off.

EDIT:  Yes pvp players are more deserving of stomping noobs then pve players.  Leveling up you may or may not be the type that likes to take advantage of other people in bad situations.  Most people who aren't, change from leveling because they grow to hate the other faction.  Some are unattached to their characters and the game itself that they dont really care, but for people who really get into it thats what happens.  If you are the type of person who could just walk into a new situation and get your rocks off killing level 40's that need more gorilla hair or whatever, i consider you a wretched individual but its just a game so whatever.

Modern, the reason pvp servers are more progressed is that they select for an ever-so-slightly higher grade of player.  Other people, who also made their server selection based on guestimated demographics (and i knew several people in my own guild and the other top horde guild on my server) who did the same.  People who didn't necessarily care that much about pvp/world pvp, but who didn't want easymode leveling and who had a competitive bent.

As an aside, pre-tbc i played an elemental shaman who was for the most part denied elemental loot regardless of my dkp totals.  This was true of all the top horde guilds on my server (all the guilds capable of killing c'thun and making progress in nax).  So, i began going through every "somewhat" progressed guild on every fucking pvp server i could find, and found that almost universally Horde PvP guilds practiced this policy of "progression over everything" loot distribution policy.

The only exceptions?  1)  Overrated, the at-the-time #1 horde guild in the US, and 2) pve servers.

I would say PvP servers are most likely much more progressed because they contain a more hardcore, willing-to-sacrifice (for lack of a better term) playerbase then pve servers.

As to the present direction the thread has gone, GFraizer is still on the interwebs, just not in a official moderating capacity on blizzards forums (where i'd bet anything he posted as Fangnoob aka Fangtooth, untilll he got blown out for being such a raging moron).  His website is www.expectnothing.com , i remember from my starcraft playing days.

I hope the elite-to-normal change is not universal.  The troll city in the Hinterlands is one of my favorite spots in the 1-60 game.  I found a group to do it with for every character i leveled except my UD mage & priest, because it didnt exist then.

Another thing i really hope blizzard does before the launch of WotLK is normalize the item/exp transition from azeroth to outland, so that scholo loot is only slightly worse then ramparts loot, etc.  Its such a waste of content and genuinely cool dungeons that no one even touches the level 60 stuff anymore.  It also makes no sense that ramparts mobs give double (or more?) the exp of azerothian dungeon mobs.

[Fabricated]

Kail, i can't believe you are not embarassed to say that crap.  PvP servers are not a bug, or stupidly designed boss encounter.  The fact that see nothing wrong with something so blatantly hypocritical is disturbing.  Another expansion is on the way (so gear doesn't matter much), they are changing the xp curve (so leveling a new character should be much less painful), if you want to stomp noobs that bad re fucking roll and endure it yourself, else fuck off.

EDIT:  Yes pvp players are more deserving of stomping noobs then pve players.  Leveling up you may or may not be the type that likes to take advantage of other people in bad situations.  Most people who aren't, change from leveling because they grow to hate the other faction.  Some are unattached to their characters and the game itself that they dont really care, but for people who really get into it thats what happens.  If you are the type of person who could just walk into a new situation and get your rocks off killing level 40's that need more gorilla hair or whatever, i consider you a wretched individual but its just a game so whatever.

Modern, the reason pvp servers are more progressed is that they select for an ever-so-slightly higher grade of player.  Other people, who also made their server selection based on guestimated demographics (and i knew several people in my own guild and the other top horde guild on my server) who did the same.  People who didn't necessarily care that much about pvp/world pvp, but who didn't want easymode leveling and who had a competitive bent.

As an aside, pre-tbc i played an elemental shaman who was for the most part denied elemental loot regardless of my dkp totals.  This was true of all the top horde guilds on my server (all the guilds capable of killing c'thun and making progress in nax).  So, i began going through every "somewhat" progressed guild on every fucking pvp server i could find, and found that almost universally Horde PvP guilds practiced this policy of "progression over everything" loot distribution policy.

The only exceptions?  1)  Overrated, the at-the-time #1 horde guild in the US, and 2) pve servers.

I would say PvP servers are most likely much more progressed because they contain a more hardcore, willing-to-sacrifice (for lack of a better term) playerbase then pve servers.

As to the present direction the thread has gone, GFraizer is still on the interwebs, just not in a official moderating capacity on blizzards forums (where i'd bet anything he posted as Fangnoob aka Fangtooth, untilll he got blown out for being such a raging moron).  His website is www.expectnothing.com , i remember from my starcraft playing days.

I hope the elite-to-normal change is not universal.  The troll city in the Hinterlands is one of my favorite spots in the 1-60 game.  I found a group to do it with for every character i leveled except my UD mage & priest, because it didnt exist then.

Another thing i really hope blizzard does before the launch of WotLK is normalize the item/exp transition from azeroth to outland, so that scholo loot is only slightly worse then ramparts loot, etc.  Its such a waste of content and genuinely cool dungeons that no one even touches the level 60 stuff anymore.  It also makes no sense that ramparts mobs give double (or more?) the exp of azerothian dungeon mobs.

I imagine the Hinterlands will get the nerf-stick if Arathi/Alterac do, since that quest series is needed for the mallet to summon the (worthless) Ghaz'rilla and get the egg for the generic ST quest reward (which is one of the better itemized quest rewards in the game).

I'd honestly love for Blizz to reitemize the whole 1-60 game so people have a REASON to hit up Blackfathom Deeps/Razorfen Kraul/Razorfen Downs/Shadowfang Keep. Make the items useful, remove green drops from bosses, replace with good twink gear. THAT'S how you'll get people back into those.

[Kail]

Kail, i can't believe you are not embarassed to say that crap.  PvP servers are not a bug, or stupidly designed boss encounter.  The fact that see nothing wrong with something so blatantly hypocritical is disturbing.  Another expansion is on the way (so gear doesn't matter much), they are changing the xp curve (so leveling a new character should be much less painful), if you want to stomp noobs that bad re fucking roll and endure it yourself, else fuck off.

Edit: Original version of my reply was somewhat offensive, I feel.  So, axed it.

The toned down reply is basically that this is a game.  It sounds like you're taking this very seriously, like clicking on a PvP or PvE toggle actually MEANS something about you, as a player.  People theoretically click on the game play style they find the most fun when they start up.  If they find they made a mistake, PvP players can switch, but PvE players cannot, and I don't see why.  I don't see why the devs should restrict what some players can do but not what other players can do, unless they can give a good reason, and I haven't heard a good reason.  If you have one, I'd love to hear it, but the only thing you've said has been that PvP servers have better players, which is the reason why PvE players want to transfer there in the first place, not a reason to prevent them from doing so.

And I have no desire to transfer my PvE characters to a PvP server, so your rants about how I should reroll or whatever are kind of pointless.  I do think it's a strange mechanic, and I don't see a reason for it.  That doesn't mean that I'm staring at the character transfer screen every day, lusting over the thought of raping lowbies or something.  I do have a few lowbie characters on PvP servers, too, they're just not very frequently played.  So it's not like I personally have a huge stake in this particular issue.  It just doesn't seem like a very good rule to me.

[Merusk]

  I don't see why the devs should restrict what some players can do but not what other players can do, unless they can give a good reason, and I haven't heard a good reason.

Because they're HARDCORE and better than you, man.  Don't you get it? You suck at life because you chose the wrong server on a game!

[WindupAtheist]

Yeah, we don't want you PVE nubs being able to play on a PVP server without going through the crushing hardcore rite-of-passage that is leveling up on one.

Listen you god damn kids, WoW PVP servers are so motherfucking soft that a card-carrying "Hooray for Trammel!" carebear like me went to one and had a good time stabbing faces until the game itself just plain bored me.  Hell, I got to a much higher level on my PVP server than I ever did on my PVE one, just because the fighting helped maintain my interest longer.

I can't see why PVP and PVE servers ought to be treated differently at all, as far as transfers are concerned.  It's not like all the PVP on the PVP servers actually... you know... does anything.