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CCP have today taken the wraps off Dust 514, a "hybrid MMO/FPS" that not only brings the world of EVE Online to consoles, but somehow ties the game to the PC MMO as well.

Apparently the game will "interact directly" with the PC title, allowing console gamers to manually fight out the battles for planets that are part of the larger MMO conflict.

It will do this by combining FPS and RTS mechanics. The game is being worked on by CCP Shanghai, and there'll be more details announced during CCP's big fan get-together in Reykjavik, Iceland in October.

Did you watch the video? It actually sounds like a pretty interesting idea. It will take a lot of balance though and I'm sure a lot of corps/alliances will take to have people with 360/PS3 so they can "contract" a special group of their best console shooter players.

They really CAN'T be thinking about making this console only can they? Holy fuck, that would be a business fuck up of NGE proportions.

Why do you say that? While it is technically feasible to make a cross platform MMO, I can see why they might not want to do that. I doubt they want to start competing with their main product so a console game seems like a reasonable plan.

If there is a MMO company that is completely 100% NOT CAPABLE OF DEALING WITH LAG it's CCP.  This is going to be a cluster if they bring in twitch.....

That's pretty harsh because although lag is a problem in low sec and with battles involving over 1000 people or when zillions of drones are used,  Eve afaik is still the only game where 100s of people can fight often with minimal lag.

I think this move by ccp is potential genius - it adds a delicious layer of complexity to an already complex game.

Wait, you're saying that taking the biggest expansion to the Eve universe ever made and ripping it out of the hands of a fanatically loyal player base unless they own a console is a good idea? Because that's what it is. It may be a whole other MMO with completely different mechanics etc. but they've already stated it's going to affect sovereignty in the current game and you can bet your ass that it'll have a presence in the market as well.

EVE is already a niece game

I'd say it's a better plan than taking EvE players to a different PC platform game. Let's see how the interface with the MMO and sov works before proclaiming that the sky is falling.

I'd say it's a better plan than taking EvE players to a different PC platform game.

By aiming at the console FPS market they can bring on board players who would never be even remotely interested in EvE and involve them in the game without pulling too many people out of space to do some ground-pounding.

How do you think having a completely different game on a different platform directly impacting the MMO will wash over?

do console MMOs work at all, the lag would probably be horrendous

Tying to two together just seems stupid to me because you know you won't be able to do stuff like bombard a planet from space or cut off supplies in a way that will effect the ground wars etc...

I think the potential for the idea is huge, I think the reality will be a steaming pile.

It could mean that the alliances currently holding lots of space and wealth-generating moons have even more of an advantage, because they are rich (and presumably can pay more mercs). I am in one of those alliances so woo hoo! but objectively I can see that would be a bad idea.

Why fight on the ground when you can just park half a dozen Apocs in orbit and glass anyone that looks at you funny?

I figure each "district" on a planet is a 32v32 map or so and the number of districts in-play goes up and down with the number of online players.

The second someone does everything right in EVE and still loses some territory because of what happened in the console FPS there is going to be bitching to high heaven. If the FPS has any real consequences then players of the main game are going to be annoyed at things outside of their control influencing the game. And adding this in years after the fact rather than at launch is a great way to piss off the existing player base.

Don't be stupid, air power doesn't dominate modern warfare because we're concerned with things like collateral damage and civilian casualties.  In a game, no one gives a fuck about that.  Nuke everything, rinse, repeat.

Remember Hiroshima, Nagasaki?  That's what air power means when you stop caring about anything but winning.

This is why I don't see DUST as an actual MMO since so many recent FPSs claim to be just that and are actually more than anything regular multiplayer experiences: Huxley, Global Agenda, Section 8, etc. No idea where the RTS part comes in. EvE Wars?

Don't be stupid, air power doesn't dominate modern warfare because we're concerned with things like collateral damage and civilian casualties.  In a game, no one gives a fuck about that.  Nuke everything, rinse, repeat.

Remember Hiroshima, Nagasaki?  That's what air power means when you stop caring about anything but winning.

That's pretty harsh because although lag is a problem in low sec and with battles involving over 1000 people or when zillions of drones are used,  Eve afaik is still the only game where 100s of people can fight often with minimal lag.

I think this move by ccp is potential genius - it adds a delicious layer of complexity to an already complex game.

I doubt CCP would handle the integration so poorly that it screws up the entire game. If it does suck, it will probably be in a way that is easily ignored within the context of the larger game, or quickly remedied. CCP isn't stupid - they're going to protect their cash cow.

Ok, 12 hours late but I'll chime in.

Everything they are doing here is a good business move, and likely to be a financial success. Although its tempting to talk about the specifics of the game, they're not important.

So instead, the part that actually affects us..

From the interview posted earlier: they admit to wanting to make EVE your one stop shop for sci-fi, regardless of what gameplay you prefer (RPG, RTS, FPS.. etc). Most people who followed CCP for a long time would know this. Its also what I vaguely referred to as EVE's "full potential" in the past, and what any decent long term vision for the game has to incorporate.

Side note: The only reason EVE has this potential and other games don't is the single shard universe model and the fact that its easier to segment and detail a huge environment (space) than try to work in the reverse direction (Star Wars Galaxies: Jump to Lightspeed for example).

This move is not about expanding EVE, its about expanding the EVE IP. A major difference that has far reaching implications for the players, which I'll try to explain.

A: Expanding EVE means keeping it as one universe, and whether or not the game is accessible from different platforms (read: consoles, mobile phone) is utterly irrelevant. It means having a single account where you have the ability to go anywhere in the single universe powered by a single database, and do any of the various forms of gameplay genres.

Some people would stick to their spaceship sims, others would hang out inside stations playing EVE RPG with their avatars, some would squat inside starbases directing ground units (RTS) and the rest would play the shooter portion on planets and inside orbital installations.

B: Expanding the EVE IP means making additional games that fall under the same backstory and fiction. This is what we have with DUST; they're aiming for a halo effect where people start playing one game and eventually merge over to other "EVE universe" games. CCP wants EVE to be the next Star Wars or Star Trek, and its certainly possible despite starting on the other side of the game/movie divide. I definitely like the cutthroat and ruthless EVE universe more.

However, I'll wager most people don't think the fiction behind this game is what makes it so good, and why people keep playing it. I'll even go as far as to say the fictional elements in EVE are utterly irrelevant to the MMO since they barely exist outside of a few gameplay mechanics and ingame news feeds.

A or B? Why not both!

The only hope players will hold onto is that B magically becomes A if CCP develop and integrate its' separate games enough to feel like one world. I don't see that ever happening, but this is the part where people can really say "fuck consoles". Even if CCP wanted to try it, they wouldn't be able to because of the platform restrictions in hardware, storage and patch verification. If DUST 514 was a PC-only shooter, things might be different but its not - and simply releasing for the PC does nothing, as its going to be bound by console development rules. Unlike EVE with patches every few months and hotfixes on a weekly basis, DUST players will be lucky to get one or two patches and DLC packs a year.

Anything else, you goddamn ruiner?

In short, A = building a really uber virtual world, and B = building a really uber intellectual property. B is a smarter business direction, since you can stay alive even when EVE tanks and all the code becomes obsoleted. Its also where the real money is at, and its the quicker/easier approach to giving players a similar experience.

But as a long term fan of EVE the game, A is what I would rather have even if it means not seeing it for five years and having it suck for another three. Why? Its the only manner in which I see EVE holding decades-long continuity with constantly increasing relevance/playerbase/fun. Having a good rp universe is only relevant if CCP plan on telling the stories by launching more books, movies and tightly controlled/scripted games.

tl;dr - Definitive proof that CCP is more interested in creating a sweet sci-fi IP and telling stories based on it, than creating sweet virtual worlds and letting us do it. The fact that this takes place in the EVE Universe and will have some level of integration does not make it a new chapter in EVE Online, or even an MMO to begin with.

tl;dr2 - Why work hard and do one thing amazingly well, when you can work less, do lots of things decently and get way richer?

How's the military genius life treating you?

He's right, air power is incapable (IRL) of taking land, by its intrinsic nature.  Do you think that Enola Gay turned around, landed and accepted Japan's surrender?  Ever hear of the Battle of Britain?  The reason has nothing to do with avoiding or not avoiding collateral damage.

Of course whether this will play out the same in Eve is questionable.

[...]The first, last and only response to ground combat should be "Kill everything, wait a couple of decades for the pollution to die down, then re-terraform what's left".[...]

Who frickin' cares about the EvE IP?  I doubt even EvE roleplayers like it.

I'm not seeing the hate, especially since we don't know anything about it yet.

I dunno.. I think that the Eve IP has a unique element: as a long-term player of the game (especially one who plays in 0.0 and who has been part of, then later funded and run big, world-changing invasions) I feel part of that IP, or more correctly to have contributed to it.

A lot of people who play FPS want meaningful combat and purpose to their gameplay, most shooters are based on K/D ratio and killboards but lack any depth except hurrah I teabagged you. It appears difficult to create an MMO that's strategically involving and at the same time incorporate combat elements to appease the FPS gamers all under the same umbrella. To try and tie them in so they both feel part of the same universe and have purpose is a bold move and one I would champion if they can pull it off.

What I wouldn't pay for a fps with gigantic maps that require use of tactics.    

Most of the combat in Eve seeming to be financially driven, the scorched earth policy might not be so financial attractive to your shareholders.

And you're not quite grasping the consequences of "Exterminatus!" - 'Oh, they still refuse to surrender? Deploy the Rorquals and start dropping compressed slabs of metal from 100Km up. Don't stop until there's nothing with vertebrae left anywhere on the planet'. There's plenty of planets in EVE, plus terraforming tech. The first, last and only response to ground combat should be "Kill everything, wait a couple of decades for the pollution to die down, then re-terraform what's left".

Naturally that makes for a shitty game but hey, we were talking in-game fluff not design.  :grin:

Who frickin' cares about the EvE IP?  I doubt even EvE roleplayers like it.

Except the only people who gives a shit about interacting with EVE are currently playing the game.

They don't only because CCP has continually fucked up in their efforts to cater to that community. They want to like Eve and appreciate the backstory but they are less than thrilled with how well that backstory has been integrated into the core game among other problems.

Plus it is creating (and will create) the only thing EvE is good for: drama.

Pretty sure we're full up after only three pages.

Oh yes Exterminatus worked really well for the Germans didn't it? Read some military history before the ghosts or grandparents of the British find this post and laugh at you.

Crushing air dominance without ground support doesn't work at securing the win. Besides as others have mentioned including myself you can't afford to blow up everything.

Eve is not earth, you can absolutely afford to just blow everything up. Its one of the core tenets in the lore

This is amazing because its amazing in just how daring CCP is willing to be who the fuck looks at this idea and says, oh yeah lets do this.  Crazy.  I'm not sure why they didn't branch into rts instead of fps but w/e the balls they show makes me love them so damn much.

 I'm not sure why they didn't branch into rts instead of fps but w/e the balls they show makes me love them so damn much.

Take one teensy little interceptor (and remove the wierd non-Newtonian speed limiter that the Eve client fits to it).  Give it a good run-up, point it at a planet and start accelerating.  My ares can go from zero to 4km/s in a second, so using s=0.5*a*(t^2) a mere 450,000 km is enough for your interceptor to be doing relativistic velocities by the time it hits the planet 75 seconds later.  It asks questions of the eve physics engine (where is the energy stored which is being translated into planet-shattering speed?) but it works.

I couldn't read the whiny Goonfleet thread on this, but I will say this: there is only one alliance in Eve which can draw on a larger base of console players than it has of Eve players, without necessarily having to shift a single one away from playing Eve to do so.  In case some of you want to work it out for yourselves I'll not spell it out, but it rhymes with Poonfleet.

A lot of the complaining would disappear if it was PC rather than Console only.

As is, the only way I can see it working is if the console players interact with the PC players like NPCs via a market screen.

I couldn't read the whiny Goonfleet thread on this, but I will say this: there is only one alliance in Eve which can draw on a larger base of console players than it has of Eve players, without necessarily having to shift a single one away from playing Eve to do so.  In case some of you want to work it out for yourselves I'll not spell it out, but it rhymes with Poonfleet.

Yeah, I bet GoonPlatoon shall rise again.  For real this time.

And I'm surprised people think that the interaction between Xbox and MMO will be so tricky.  Given that Shadowrun seemed to handle console and pc players interacting in real time, I am surprised that people think that the interaction likely here (shared database, chat, some resource transfer dialogues) will be that much worse.

Pure speculation alert!  I think the "interaction" will be limited to public (or private, if you know what crew you want to hire and don't mind losing the bargaining power) contracts placed by EVE player factions for DUST squads to respond to.

Maybe one of the big reveals is that this new FPS will be included with EVE on PCs?

Problem is that FPSes don't last as long as MMOGs, hell, consoles don't last as long as EVE.

Give it six months after launch, and the only people playing will be direct offshoots of EVE alliances.

Didn't the presenter have a big grin when someone asked him "what about the PC?", or am I just imagining shit again?

I don't buy this.  If you can get people still playing Planetside and even bloody WWIIOL (which was really never good) after all these years then the fact that Dust 514 is, in its own right, an MMO suggests that it will maintain stickiness outside moonlighting pod pilots.

Didn't the presenter have a big grin when someone asked him "what about the PC?", or am I just imagining shit again?

Ground-based FPS to co-exist on a PC and a console? I don't think so. This'll probably be only for consoles with some eventually-devolved impact on the EVE PC game. Like periodic XML data exports to populate some vague leaderboard that shows Corp/Alliance "advancement" while the EVE players continue their economic warfare. There'll be crossover people, as there's probably enough EVE players that also own consoles. But even if every Eve player buys the FPS version, that's not a big enough audience by half to justify the expense of an action shooter.

Problem with that idea has already been said, mouse+keyboard>controller

How much money do you think they wasted on trying to figure out avatars and walking AMBULATION.

I've not played it or know much about it to be honest, but unless the console players are given mouse and keyboards the hypothetical PC port people are discussing would eventually drive a nail in the console version, so it wouldn't be good business savvy to produce one.

As people keep saying Endie Shadowrun=pile of steaming piss  :grin:

I've not played it or know much about it to be honest, but unless the console players are given mouse and keyboards the hypothetical PC port people are discussing would eventually drive a nail in the console version, so it wouldn't be good business savvy to produce one. That's why I can't see it happening.

EVE players will buy anything to get an advantage in the war.

The point about Shadowrun isn't that it was a good game - I detested it, personally - but that it proved that console and keyboard players, and in this context just as importantly XBox Live and PC gamers, could be happily integrated.  And yet there are still people on this page saying that can't happen.

The point about Shadowrun isn't that it was a good game - I detested it, personally - but that it proved that console and keyboard players, and in this context just as importantly XBox Live and PC gamers, could be happily integrated.  And yet there are still people on this page saying that can't happen.

As people keep saying Endie Shadowrun=pile of steaming piss  :grin:

I've not played it or know much about it to be honest, but unless the console players are given mouse and keyboards the hypothetical PC port people are discussing would eventually drive a nail in the console version, so it wouldn't be good business savvy to produce one. That's why I can't see it happening.

Why would console and PC players have to fight in the same sectors? With a ton of battlegrounds on each planet, the server could allocate exclusive battlegrounds proportional to the numbers of each type of player logged in.

The point about Shadowrun isn't that it was a good game - I detested it, personally - but that it proved that console and keyboard players, and in this context just as importantly XBox Live and PC gamers, could be happily integrated.  And yet there are still people on this page saying that can't happen.

Anything can happen. But the core problem (controller vs keyboard mouse) isn't going to go away unless you make PC users use a 360 controller (conceivable), make the console owners buy a keyboard (less so), or gimp the levels to LCD the whole experience.

Am I mistaken that ps3 was also mentioned?

If it is console only, it has to be ps3, otherwise they lock out Russia, which means locking out subscribers that control about 30% of space.

I remember all the gaga about it before it launched and the resounding meh after.

This will end in tears without a PC port.

All the way through this thread people are saying this sort of thing.  I'm intrigued as to why.

I personally think they would be better off without a PC port of this.

Does Nintendo outsell 3rd parties?

How many more rhetorical questions can be asked?

I was talking to a friend about this and considering we could get a bunch of our friends that don't have the patience for EVE but do play COD4/5, etc at least a couple of hours a day to log in and fight our battles for us. The fact that we could supply them with extra kit is just bonus.

Hopefully CCP is going to integrate the two games so that you have to lock some planets down in the console/FPS version in order to gain control of systems.  Then you would have to plan your attacks very well and have great coordination.  Oooh, then they could make it where you have to have a certain number of missions completed to gain control, in tier 1-5.  Wait, didn't somebody do this and fuck it up?

All the way through this thread people are saying this sort of thing.  I'm intrigued as to why.

So many PC FPS purists on this board who don't realize they're a minority...

This is pretty much what i was trying to say, as inoffensively as I could, with stats showing the huge disparity.

Between 1998 and 2006, PC game software sales halved from 1.8 billion to 970 million dollars.  Over the same period, console games software sales almost doubled from 3.7 billion to 6.5 billion dollars.  Even if that trend has suddenly stalled for some inexplicable reason then that's almost seven times more money in consoles than in PC games.  PC Games don't even register on the US top ten charts, desipte the fact that to appear would only require the top PC game to sell a quarter of the units of the top console title - http://uk.gamespot.com/news/6213502.html  Only in PCphilic regional markets like the UK does the occasional PC blockbuster (Sims 3) creep in at the bottom end of the chart - http://forum.pcvsconsole.com/viewthread.php?tid=17755&page=20

On another PC related note, we pulled some disturbing numbers this past week about the amount of PC players currently playing Multiplayer (which was fantastic). What wasn’t fantastic was the percentage of those numbers who were playing on stolen copies of the game on stolen / cracked CD keys of pirated copies (and that was only people playing online).

Not sure if I can share the exact numbers or percentage of PC players with you, but I’ll check and see; if I can I’ll update with them. As the amount of people who pirate PC games is astounding. It blows me away at the amount of people willing to steal games (or anything) simply because it’s not physical or it’s on the safety of the internet to do.

Two, the numbers on piracy are really astonishing. The research I’ve seen pegs the piracy rate at between 70-85% on PC in the US, 90%+ in Europe, off the charts in Asia. I didn’t believe it at first. It seemed way too high. Then I saw that Bioshock was selling 5 to 1 on console vs. PC. And Call of Duty 4 was selling 10 to 1. These are hardcore games, shooters, classic PC audience stuff. Given the difference in install base, I can’t believe that there’s that big of a difference in who played these games, but I guess there can be in who actually payed for them.

Minority or not, they're still better players.

It's a company, you can't seriously expect them to be content with niche numbers for the rest of their existence.

I still see nothing to indicate that the worst case scenario is nothing more than:

-Console game flops
-Lack of console participation ruins the fun in EVE for a week or two
-CCP is collectively sad and heartbroken, but not retarded so...
-Game impact from the console title is scaled back to 'little to none'

It's a risk - I personally feel the game is doomed, Lords of Everquest style, but hopefully they come up with a winner. And if not, there's always plan B.

So many PC FPS purists on this board who don't realize they're a minority...

Just to quell those who say it's not fair because if their DUST team sucks, they lose the planet: It takes more than one DUST vs DUST fight to capture a planet, so the whole "What if my team sucks?" thing won't determine your loss from the beginning.

I still see nothing to indicate that the worst case scenario is nothing more than:

-Console game flops
-Lack of console participation ruins the fun in EVE for a week or two
-CCP is collectively sad and heartbroken, but not retarded so...
-Game impact from the console title is scaled back to 'little to none'

It's a risk - I personally feel the game is doomed, Lords of Everquest style, but hopefully they come up with a winner. And if not, there's always plan B.

now they have to share it with the mouth breathing 12 year old console FPS crowd.

Surly, my comment wasn't directed specifically at you; rather at the general sense that ignoring PC gamers would somehow hurt this title.

Surly, my comment wasn't directed specifically at you; rather at the general sense that ignoring PC gamers would somehow hurt this title.

So many PC FPS purists on this board who don't realize they're a minority...

You misunderstand. We know full well we're the minority. But ignoring the one platform upon which Eve exists for the one market it serves makes a big assumption about the power of the EVE "brand" outside of the socioeconomic uniserver PC game.

This is the biggie. I'd wager that your average console player knows little to nothing of the Eve universe simply because it is such a core PC experience and is the antithesis to most console games in general.

CCP is going to have to go BIG on marketing as launch nears. A few banners on the MMO sites and a few articles on the typical gaming sites accomplishes jack shit. We're talking TV ads, console marketplace ads, magazine and newspaper articles, the full meal deal. Far north of what even Warhammer and AoC pumped out marketing wise.

If they bring it to market then journalists will fall over themselves to write about it.  The average FPS is, to this day, little more than a mod of CS or Quake with some graphical upgrades.  To a lazy journo something with a hook as big as Dust's will be a welcome delight.

Having said that, I'm still excited for what this could be. CCP is a great combination of visionary, stubborn, and (mostly) realistic about the strength of their property. But being known for precisely one thing has its drawbacks :-)

Having said that, I'm still excited for what this could be. CCP is a great combination of visionary, stubborn, and (mostly) realistic about the strength of their property. But being known for precisely one thing has its drawbacks :-)

makes me think that's what Huxley should have been.

If they bring it to market then journalists will fall over themselves to write about it.  The average FPS is, to this day, little more than a mod of CS or Quake with some graphical upgrades.  To a lazy journo something with a hook as big as Dust's will be a welcome delight.

announcing that for three years they've secretly been developing a twitch, non-diku MMO that ties into their existing product with each impacting the other to some extent. 

Absolutely.  Everyone (including me) has been bitching about MMOs being staid and stuck in a decade-old rut.  Here we have one of the proven innovators in the genre announcing that for three years they've secretly been developing a twitch, non-diku MMO that ties into their existing product with each impacting the other to some extent.  I don't really see why anyone interested in the MMO genre wouldn't want to see that sort of risk-taking behaviour.  It certainly puts the hype about the same-old-same-old disaster which was Vanguard into sharp contrast.

Holy shit, whats the name of the non-diku twitch MMO? Or are we just throwing the MMO label around for kicks? This game could be counterstrike with a leaderboard that updates into EVE, lets not go projecting grandness onto stupid.

Who could possibly have a problem with innovation! Taking "risks" with design and platform for no observable justification beyond the mythic "console EVE fans" is not deserving of anything but disdain. Stupid is not revolutionary, the "console" factor does nothing but exclude the only people who who have any idea what EVE or CCP is and bring a set of restrictions that hinder every single design goal we have heard.

Please stop with the, WHO HAS PROBLEMS WITH PROGRESS ITS A NEW DAWN OF INNOVATION WITH CONSOLE FPS/RTS HURF BLURF. The premise is stupid, the execution nearly impossible to make work and even if perfectly executed it still wont be bringing in a wide audience.

Oh bugger off. Gryeyes nailed it, but even more so, like I said: They had enough trouble with walking. I'm 100% sure I'd rather them be putting Shanghai to work on the White Wolf MMOG than some nebulous fps game.

"this is a great idea if it works, I hope it works, but it'll be tricky."

Schild, the ambulation was due out about 7 or 8 months ago.  It looks to me like they worked out the potential for this new approach and decided not to announce until they'd done feasability work.  I very much doubt if they reckon they've wasted a penny, as a result.

Please stop with the "this is the end of the universe liquidate your ISK while you still have time" blurf.  You've offered no justification for it so far.  I, like most people, am just saying "this is a great idea if it works, I hope it works, but it'll be tricky."

And grammatical sentences are those which observe the rules of grammar.

But I think it is important somebody out there tries.

Good for them! They have posited a concept that excludes their established fan base for a platform extremely ill suited for the intended game. Those innovative geniuses!

So, out of curiosity, do you have your expectations set low enough so that when this inevitably turns out to be a terrible game you won't be let down? Just wondering.

Regarding the final bit, CCP knew nothing about developing an internet spaceship game when they started.

They already have their existing fanbase.  The way to make a growth star instead of a cash cow is to appeal to a new market.  Yes, they'd be dumb to alienate their existing market to do so, but so far the only evidence of that is contained in shrill doomcasting from forum posters.  It might happen, but there is no evidence.

I assume that most software houses, when they decide to develop a new game, do not think "lordy me we can't develop that for the PS3!  Our Wii users will have their noses put right out of joint!"

Please stop with the "this is the end of the universe liquidate your ISK while you still have time" blurf.  

Surely you mean "grammatically correct." You can't have something just be grammatical. It's either correct or incorrect. Thanks for the compliment though, I never considered myself a great poster.

Come on, nobody is even going there.

It's not possible to win an argument with schild, especially if you're right.

I'm surprised people still don't realize this.

Read this thread.  Read Gryeyes' posts, which sound like those of RandomList on Kugut.

And that alleged strawman was just paraphrasing the first two lines of the preceding Gryeyes post.  Developing a PC-only RTS of Call of Duty, for instance, while dumb (because the big money is in console games if you must be exclusive) does not "alienate" 360 users.  If he just doesn't understand "alienate" and meant "exclude" then that's cool.  But "alienate"?  Nah, that's what I'm happy to mock.

I wish I could say I was intentionally trolling

To add to that you quite obviously know fuckall about Eve otherwise you'd realise a large proportion of the playerbase couldn't give two fucks about sovereignty. The ones that do care likely either already own or will buy an x-box/PS3 for this. The ones that care but don't make the purchase might even enjoy the fact that the fucked up sov system has been improved in a positive way.

If CCP had announced a PC RTS / FPS that directly impacted on EvE, there would still be complaints because EvE isn't an FPS / RTS game and doesn't attract (in the main) those kind of players. But where else does EvE go?

But is that really any better than the shadowrun solution?

Also if they allow a keyboard for chat, you're forcing the console players to have a keyboard anyway, so you might as well allow normal FPS style keyboard/mouse control on both platforms and then everyone is happy.

It is simply because you take all inequity of the control scheme out of the equation. Perceived, real, or otherwise. In effect, CCP could just turn your PC into a console simply by making the Dust client only accept commands from an Xbox controller or whatnot.

Falwell: I suppose that the problems would be that (a) the joy of PCs is that you can work around anything.  The driver would probably be hacked around on launch day; and (b) that being seen as deliberately crippling PC users would probably cut sales on the platform, without making it cheaper to develop for.

What the fuck is that supposed to mean!?!?

Ignoring the fact im not the one insistent on making the debate hyper personal because I dont like my cockfaggery being called out.

I am in fact a mouth breathing retard.

In Shadowrun the problem wasn't so much that the control system was perceived to be unfair

I am in fact a mouth breathing retard.

I still place my vote with "PC version but the game has an absolutely minimal interaction with EVE".

If CCP really must expand the EVE franchise how about starting with a console FPS, without all the additional nonsensical baggage (MMO/RTS cross platform blah blah stupid).

I think the number of people who care about sov is probably larger than the number of people directly affected by it.

I think the number of people who care about sov is probably larger than the number of people directly affected by it.

I though pretty much every player in Eve is effected by SOV.  Moon mining and SOV go hand in hand.  Moon resources ties directly into the T2 market and most players buy T2 items as soon as they can train to use them.  SOV conflicts direct effect mineral prices which in turn directly effect everyone playing.  Did trit loose 25% of it value due to end of the big war or loot drop changes?  I do not know but could believe it was the end of big war about SOV.

I though pretty much every player in Eve is effected by SOV.  Moon mining and SOV go hand in hand.  Moon resources ties directly into the T2 market and most players buy T2 items as soon as they can train to use them.  SOV conflicts direct effect mineral prices which in turn directly effect everyone playing.  Did trit loose 25% of it value due to end of the big war or loot drop changes?  I do not know but could believe it was the end of big war about SOV.

I though pretty much every player in Eve is effected by SOV.  Moon mining and SOV go hand in hand.  Moon resources ties directly into the T2 market and most players buy T2 items as soon as they can train to use them.  SOV conflicts direct effect mineral prices which in turn directly effect everyone playing.  Did trit loose 25% of it value due to end of the big war or loot drop changes?  I do not know but could believe it was the end of big war about SOV.

This is fucking obvious you idiot savant that's what I'm fucking saying to you hahahahaha, god you're so fucking dumb it's unbelievable.

The people tangentially affected like that don't care who holds sov.

Three posts in a row, dont hurt yourself with the stupid now.

Failure will be because the "Eve" brand means dickall to anyone outside of one tiny pocket of the MMO space. High brand awareness needs high affinity to be a success, and the latter Eve does not have. And no matter how much marketing put behind it, you'll never outspend those with a vested interested in continuing their specifically-FPS franchises.

I don't think they want the PC audience to touch this game unless they're of the hardcore mentality where they'd buy a console just to give their EVE corp and advantage.  EVE's existence is propped up almost completely on the dramatic interaction of other players.  They don't want to dilute this pool of players by providing them another gaming option.

Which also leads to, what I believe is, one of CCP's big misunderstandings. People outside of Eve are into the drama stories, NOT the IP itself. Tears are bringing the interest, not backstory, setting or lore.

Small poles aside, why would liking the EVE universe preclude playing FPS's?   :uhrr:

Yet another interview (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fTR9xK6iJo) with Hilmar post GDC presentation. Looks like there's a good possibility it'll be playable at fanfest.

The way the player was moving/turning/strafing/aiming like he was trapped in a jar of molasses felt just right for controller fps.

Or, at least, a lot more sense than going to a completely different demographic on a completely different medium with a completely different game as your first step. A parallel here is Halo to Halo Wars, but at least that attempt was on the same platform.

1. That wasn't even gameplay. That was either scripted or straight up CGI.

But I don't see Planetside here. I see co-op and competitive FPS, something appropriate to the console platforms. Whatever persistence results from battles will exist in whatever meta connection they make to the core Eve game.

Rather, the video looked way too good for any current console game; lighting, shadows, etc were spot on.

Well initially I thought DUST was going to be small scale battles like 32 players max but in an interview he said the rooms they are going for would range from 16-256 players. (well after watching that youtube clip I see that it is supposed to be less than 255, bah) So at the very least they are getting close to the large sizes PS offered while at the same time offer more intimate sessions for people who want to get away from feeling like a cog in the war machine.

I don't think it makes a lot of sense to be interacting in realtime while you are fighting on the planet and flying in space

This is now the thing I'm most curious about. Getting that many people in an FPS without gimping the UI to below acceptable levels for those FPS players is still so elusive most companies don't even try.

Looks a lot like traditional console fps autoaim based nonsense.  :cry:

Any idea or mechanic that means the console gamers are reliant on Eve players to do something means waiting around for the FPS players which will suck for them, this is assuming Dust players are tied to an alliance/corp.

FW

Yeah, I think this is the key to giving dust players bikes to ride while they wait for their fleet to open opportunities in the real war. I imagine they'll have the factions issue open contracts all day long.


In EVE players can be occupied with NPC missions and ratting, not sure that translates so well to the FPS.

He even stated that they hope maybe in the future DUST teams will be able to align with alliances. That means pending CCP being able to implement it, it'll be possible.

4-5 years post launch it'll be in. When the game doesn't matter anymore.

CCP would save themselves a lot of tears if they don't bother expecting Dust fps'ers to care about the EVE mmorpg'ers.

If EVE and dust can supply each other with any type of resource (isk) it is just fucking bizarre to imagine that Dust corps/guilds/clans/whatever won't get caught up in EVE politics.

The most lucrative activity will be coming from the most lucrative regions of 0.0 (because that is where the money is and that is where people are willing and able to pay), but Goons or Razor or AAA or whoever aren't suddenly going to be issuing open invitations to their enemies to fight in these regions and get access to their isk, Dust corps are either going to become allied to these blocs, or are at least going to have to come to arrangements with them, just to get into the end game.

You're assuming that we'll continue to be in control of the planets or the market.  

Imagine this scenario:  DUST (console) players outnumber the EVE playerbase 3:1 on opening day, and CCP implements automatic battleground generation to accomodate the number of DUST players looking for a fight.  ALL of the planets in [Your Alliance Space] suddenly become battlegrounds, and, contracts or not, DUST players fight over them daily.  Planets change sovereignty daily, at the whim of a much bigger playerbase.  Daily, no matter what EVE players do, just cause there are so many console players looking for a fun fight, anywhere.

Given what we know of EVE lore and CCP design philosophy; my guess is that on order to take control of an installation on a planet, the fleets will have to shoot at a shield for 15 minutes then drop a pod onto the surface.

X hours later the dust players on the attacking side can clone jump to the pod and start the FPS instance. (X being a number adjustable by the defending team choosing how much strontium goes in a fuel bay and calculated from that by some arcane formula only understood by 3 people, 2 of whom are dead, and the third of whom is in Epsilon squad.)

Defenders can clone jump in any time they like.

For one assuming the Dust players don't care about the sov mini game

You are making an enormous assumption if you think dust players will be able to arbitrarily attack planets without any fleet support.

They even said it would be a strategy game. Even though they haven't elaborated on exactly how it obviously has to discard some of the pick up and play aspects of the FPS genre so players are forced to think even more about resources, territory and/or manpower.

They said it would have RTS elements, not that it would be a strategy game. It'll probably end up being 80-90% FPS and the rest "strategy". There's a reason GoW, Halo and CoD are the top played FPS. You don't need to think, just be good at shooting.

Yeah, Eve is at least partially RTS (admittedly only really for those in a few exalted positions at the heads of corps and alliances).  Doesn't dominate the gameplay of most, though.

Can't agree with that unless you are completely segregating how players have to plan and manage their career plans from SOV when considering Eve's strategic elements. SOV isn't the only thing in the game that requires strategic thinking.

So what? Before it could've been argued sports gamers don't like getting bogged down in managing their teams over playing the game but the complexity of managing a team and career mode have been adopted well. Before it could've been argued fps gamers wouldn't like being forced to not be able to run into a room and gun down people because in 1-3 hits they die but stealth games took off.

It all depends on the execution.

Well initially I thought DUST was going to be small scale battles like 32 players max but in an interview he said the rooms they are going for would range from 16-256 players. (well after watching that youtube clip I see that it is supposed to be less than 255, bah) So at the very least they are getting close to the large sizes PS offered while at the same time offer more intimate sessions for people who want to get away from feeling like a cog in the war machine.

This is a bit disappointing. FPS' with large scale combat tend to slow down game pace to the point of near boredom (example - being the one guy who couldn't get a tank/plane/jeep in Battlefield.) The size of the maps that are needed to accomodate that many players really slams on the brakes. Most console players are used to Halo/COD style FPS' now, I doubt they're going to be into waiting 5 minutes for a tank respawn.

(Just call me bitter that it's not going to be on PC.)

They even said it would be a strategy game. Even though they haven't elaborated on exactly how it obviously has to discard some of the pick up and play aspects of the FPS genre so players are forced to think even more about resources, territory and/or manpower.

Just as a reminder for those interested, CCP will be streaming tomorrow's keynote live here. (http://www.eveonline.com/evetv/)

[Dust character] development comes via achievements, which in turn unlock new tiers of gear. This gear is available for purchase via a microtransaction system, and as DUST 514 doesn’t require a subscription, real money exchanged for virtual goods will be the business model. At launch, EVE Online and DUST 514 will have separate economies, but CCP didn’t discard the possibility of merging their respective economies at some point.

ick.

Oblivion got some criticism over the buying in-game items thing, though.

That wasn't over the principle of buying items, though; it was over the price point for the items.