CCP Shanghai making console FPS aka EvE 360 - via Kotaku

[DLRiley]

Eww basically savage 2.....

[Dtrain]

What? Something new?!?!?!?! NOT ON *MY* INTERNETS!!!!

Seriously though, It's a very innovative idea. With innovation comes risk. I have my doubts that the console shooter will be worth playing, but I haven't made my mind up about it.

I doubt CCP would handle the integration so poorly that it screws up the entire game. If it does suck, it will probably be in a way that is easily ignored within the context of the larger game, or quickly remedied. CCP isn't stupid - they're going to protect their cash cow.

In any event, it will be interesting to see, and I'm sure a lot can be learned from the effort - hopefully for the betterment of MMOs, which I think we all recognize, could use a little innovation.

[patience]

I doubt CCP would handle the integration so poorly that it screws up the entire game. If it does suck, it will probably be in a way that is easily ignored within the context of the larger game, or quickly remedied. CCP isn't stupid - they're going to protect their cash cow.

I'm just going to quote someone else who is more eloquent than myself.

Ok, 12 hours late but I'll chime in.

Everything they are doing here is a good business move, and likely to be a financial success. Although its tempting to talk about the specifics of the game, they're not important.

So instead, the part that actually affects us..

From the interview posted earlier: they admit to wanting to make EVE your one stop shop for sci-fi, regardless of what gameplay you prefer (RPG, RTS, FPS.. etc). Most people who followed CCP for a long time would know this. Its also what I vaguely referred to as EVE's "full potential" in the past, and what any decent long term vision for the game has to incorporate.

Side note: The only reason EVE has this potential and other games don't is the single shard universe model and the fact that its easier to segment and detail a huge environment (space) than try to work in the reverse direction (Star Wars Galaxies: Jump to Lightspeed for example).

This move is not about expanding EVE, its about expanding the EVE IP. A major difference that has far reaching implications for the players, which I'll try to explain.

A: Expanding EVE means keeping it as one universe, and whether or not the game is accessible from different platforms (read: consoles, mobile phone) is utterly irrelevant. It means having a single account where you have the ability to go anywhere in the single universe powered by a single database, and do any of the various forms of gameplay genres.

Some people would stick to their spaceship sims, others would hang out inside stations playing EVE RPG with their avatars, some would squat inside starbases directing ground units (RTS) and the rest would play the shooter portion on planets and inside orbital installations.

B: Expanding the EVE IP means making additional games that fall under the same backstory and fiction. This is what we have with DUST; they're aiming for a halo effect where people start playing one game and eventually merge over to other "EVE universe" games. CCP wants EVE to be the next Star Wars or Star Trek, and its certainly possible despite starting on the other side of the game/movie divide. I definitely like the cutthroat and ruthless EVE universe more.

However, I'll wager most people don't think the fiction behind this game is what makes it so good, and why people keep playing it. I'll even go as far as to say the fictional elements in EVE are utterly irrelevant to the MMO since they barely exist outside of a few gameplay mechanics and ingame news feeds.

A or B? Why not both!

The only hope players will hold onto is that B magically becomes A if CCP develop and integrate its' separate games enough to feel like one world. I don't see that ever happening, but this is the part where people can really say "fuck consoles". Even if CCP wanted to try it, they wouldn't be able to because of the platform restrictions in hardware, storage and patch verification. If DUST 514 was a PC-only shooter, things might be different but its not - and simply releasing for the PC does nothing, as its going to be bound by console development rules. Unlike EVE with patches every few months and hotfixes on a weekly basis, DUST players will be lucky to get one or two patches and DLC packs a year.

Anything else, you goddamn ruiner?

In short, A = building a really uber virtual world, and B = building a really uber intellectual property. B is a smarter business direction, since you can stay alive even when EVE tanks and all the code becomes obsoleted. Its also where the real money is at, and its the quicker/easier approach to giving players a similar experience.

But as a long term fan of EVE the game, A is what I would rather have even if it means not seeing it for five years and having it suck for another three. Why? Its the only manner in which I see EVE holding decades-long continuity with constantly increasing relevance/playerbase/fun. Having a good rp universe is only relevant if CCP plan on telling the stories by launching more books, movies and tightly controlled/scripted games.

tl;dr - Definitive proof that CCP is more interested in creating a sweet sci-fi IP and telling stories based on it, than creating sweet virtual worlds and letting us do it. The fact that this takes place in the EVE Universe and will have some level of integration does not make it a new chapter in EVE Online, or even an MMO to begin with.

tl;dr2 - Why work hard and do one thing amazingly well, when you can work less, do lots of things decently and get way richer?

[Dtrain]

Since A and B are the new hotness, let me respond in kind: 

If confirmed cash cow A is threatened by 'potential not realized' cash cow B, CCP will take cash cow B out behind the barn and shoot it. Of course cow B is an uknown at this point, but I don't think that CCP has the next Halo on their hands here.

[Amarr HM]

No but Halo isn't the best FPS shooter out there either, just the most popular and accessible.

[Dtrain]

Not holding Halo up as an example of quality, which is entirely subjective, but as an example of popularity.

Point being that this has the potential to be a very small tempest in a very small teacup.

[Simond]

Don't be stupid, air power doesn't dominate modern warfare because we're concerned with things like collateral damage and civilian casualties.  In a game, no one gives a fuck about that.  Nuke everything, rinse, repeat.

Remember Hiroshima, Nagasaki?  That's what air power means when you stop caring about anything but winning.

How's the military genius life treating you?

He's right, air power is incapable (IRL) of taking land, by its intrinsic nature.  Do you think that Enola Gay turned around, landed and accepted Japan's surrender?  Ever hear of the Battle of Britain?  The reason has nothing to do with avoiding or not avoiding collateral damage.

Of course whether this will play out the same in Eve is questionable.

And you're not quite grasping the consequences of "Exterminatus!" - 'Oh, they still refuse to surrender? Deploy the Rorquals and start dropping compressed slabs of metal from 100Km up. Don't stop until there's nothing with vertebrae left anywhere on the planet'. There's plenty of planets in EVE, plus terraforming tech. The first, last and only response to ground combat should be "Kill everything, wait a couple of decades for the pollution to die down, then re-terraform what's left".

Naturally that makes for a shitty game but hey, we were talking in-game fluff not design. 

[tazelbain]

Who frickin' cares about the EvE IP?  I doubt even EvE roleplayers like it.

[Typhon]

[...]The first, last and only response to ground combat should be "Kill everything, wait a couple of decades for the pollution to die down, then re-terraform what's left".[...]

Unless want you want is onthe planet, say for instance, an extremely valuable and heretofore un-relocatable life form that creates this spice, AND THE SPICE MUST FUCKING FLOW!!!  Oh wait, that's Dune.  Ok, so maybe it's just tech or people that you want and you don't want to just eradicate them all.

Most of the combat in Eve seeming to be financially driven, the scorched earth policy might not be so financial attractive to your shareholders.  WHO MIGHT MAKE YOU LIVE OUT THE REST OF YOUR LIFE IN A PAIN AMPLIFIER!!!1!.  (sorry, all better now)

[Amarr HM]

A lot of people who play FPS want meaningful combat and purpose to their gameplay, most shooters are based on K/D ratio and killboards but lack any depth except hurrah I teabagged you. It appears difficult to create an MMO that's strategically involving and at the same time incorporate combat elements to appease the FPS gamers all under the same umbrella. To try and tie them in so they both feel part of the same universe and have purpose is a bold move and one I would champion if they can pull it off.

[palmer_eldritch]

A: Expanding EVE means keeping it as one universe, and whether or not the game is accessible from different platforms (read: consoles, mobile phone) is utterly irrelevant. It means having a single account where you have the ability to go anywhere in the single universe powered by a single database, and do any of the various forms of gameplay genres.

Some people would stick to their spaceship sims, others would hang out inside stations playing EVE RPG with their avatars, some would squat inside starbases directing ground units (RTS) and the rest would play the shooter portion on planets and inside orbital installations.

B: Expanding the EVE IP means making additional games that fall under the same backstory and fiction. This is what we have with DUST; they're aiming for a halo effect where people start playing one game and eventually merge over to other "EVE universe" games. CCP wants EVE to be the next Star Wars or Star Trek, and its certainly possible despite starting on the other side of the game/movie divide. I definitely like the cutthroat and ruthless EVE universe more.

But they're not doing either of those. They seem to be doing something in between.

Dust is not just an additional game with the same backstory and fiction. What happens in Dust will have a major effect on the Eve universe, as it will affect sovereignty, or so CCP seem to be saying.

For those who don't play Eve, now that this thread has been moved to the MMO board, sovereignty is the be-all and end-all of Eve for the significant minority of players who play in zero security space. The big "war" thread on the F13 Eve forums is basically a discussion of who has sovereignty, and the battles which take place as alliances try to gain and retain sovereignty - to own space so they can build stuff and do stuff in it.

What we seem to be gettign here is two separate games, with - I would guess - two distinct communities, who will interact in ways we don't really know yet, but which seem significant.

[gryeyes]

Except the only people who gives a shit about interacting with EVE are currently playing the game. Having some fucks on another platform dictating how/where/when you play is not a good selling point. So either the interaction is purely superficial and does not have a large impact on the game play, and if thats the case why fucking bother with the hassle. Or it does have a large impact, which is unappealing to console users, and infuriating to the MMO user base.

The FPS success will not be based on its interaction with EVE. It might succeed in spite of it but not because of it. Its also shitting where you sleep, which is never a good idea. And all of the really awesome possibilities with the concept (real time interaction with ground forces,logistics,Boarding parties synced up with real ships in EVE etc) is not going to fucking happen. ESPECIALLY not with it being console based. The concept is bold innovative and exceptionally difficult to make work. Tossing in the element of cross platform interaction is   of epic proportions. Excluding a PC version is even worse.

I still think it will be folded into EVE somehow. I just dont see the alternative happening.

[Endie]

Who frickin' cares about the EvE IP?  I doubt even EvE roleplayers like it.

I dunno.. I think that the Eve IP has a unique element: as a long-term player of the game (especially one who plays in 0.0 and who has been part of, then later funded and run big, world-changing invasions) I feel part of that IP, or more correctly to have contributed to it.

[Hawkbit]

This whole thing made me think of the Battlezone remake someone did in the late 90s.  Ship FPS with basic RTS stuff.  Not a bad game, just needed a bit more time and support.  I could see a game like that fitting right into EVE's world.  

I'm not seeing the hate, especially since we don't know anything about it yet.  It would be pretty cool to have resources in EVE only capturable if the DUST part of your corp owned that area.  

Let the sky fall, imo.

[Engels]

For me, this is on up there with making the new IL-2 sturmovik game PS3 only. The core audience are probably only PC-only. I suspect that CCP got some exclusive MS deal with lots of dev money if they pushed it out only on XBox.

[gryeyes]

I'm not seeing the hate, especially since we don't know anything about it yet.

We know it wont be available on EVE's native platform. What the fuck else does one need to know?

[tazelbain]

Who frickin' cares about the EvE IP?  I doubt even EvE roleplayers like it.

I dunno.. I think that the Eve IP has a unique element: as a long-term player of the game (especially one who plays in 0.0 and who has been part of, then later funded and run big, world-changing invasions) I feel part of that IP, or more correctly to have contributed to it.

I consider that worldliness, not IP. I mean if Minmatar were never slaves but in fact space Hippies.  Would it make any difference to the state 0.0 political affairs that you enjoy.  In fact the EvE IP goes out of it way to make itself irrelevant to the players so they can do their own thing.

[Tige]

A lot of people who play FPS want meaningful combat and purpose to their gameplay, most shooters are based on K/D ratio and killboards but lack any depth except hurrah I teabagged you. It appears difficult to create an MMO that's strategically involving and at the same time incorporate combat elements to appease the FPS gamers all under the same umbrella. To try and tie them in so they both feel part of the same universe and have purpose is a bold move and one I would champion if they can pull it off.

What I wouldn't pay for a fps with gigantic maps that require use of tactics.   

[Amarr HM]

What I wouldn't pay for a fps with gigantic maps that require use of tactics.    

Not sure if you are being facetious here? I have played some FPS that make good use of tactics, ETQW uses deployables like radars and Battlefield from what I have heard can be quite tactical. As far as gigantic how gigantic are we talking?  But what I was saying was attaching a game of this ilk so that it can make a tangible difference to a persistent game world would be much sought after by fans of the genre.

I mean bragging rights in an FPS shooter usually boil down to your K/D ratio or your shot accuracy, but to say you helped in the battle of X system to gain control of sov and you were a hired merc or some such (I don't know how it's gonna fuckin work either) and become part of a decent backstory would pretty much be the pinnacle of that type of gaming experience.

[Tige]

Not sure if you are being facetious here? I have played some FPS that make good use of tactics, ETQW uses deployables like radars and Battlefield from what I have heard can be quite tactical. As far as gigantic how gigantic are we talking?  But what I was saying was attaching a game of this ilk so that it can make a tangible difference to a persistent game world would be much sought after by fans of the genre.[/quote]

Not being sarcastic at all.  I agree with you.  As far as the size of the maps, they need to be big enough to have more than one funnel or chokepoint.  Definitely bigger as not to be able to target your opponents as soon as you spawn or zone in.  Even with scopes or deployable sensors.

Re-rail.... I think CCP will pull it off.  They caught hell for the first year after the release of EVE then people saw they had something good, not for everybody, but good. 

[tmp]

Most of the combat in Eve seeming to be financially driven, the scorched earth policy might not be so financial attractive to your shareholders.

Pretty much. Nuke the whole established infrastructure flat and then spend billions and years to rebuild it, or pay a fraction of that to have ground teams take that stuff over in fraction of time, too. Hard decision...

[patience]

And you're not quite grasping the consequences of "Exterminatus!" - 'Oh, they still refuse to surrender? Deploy the Rorquals and start dropping compressed slabs of metal from 100Km up. Don't stop until there's nothing with vertebrae left anywhere on the planet'. There's plenty of planets in EVE, plus terraforming tech. The first, last and only response to ground combat should be "Kill everything, wait a couple of decades for the pollution to die down, then re-terraform what's left".

Naturally that makes for a shitty game but hey, we were talking in-game fluff not design. 

Oh yes Exterminatus worked really well for the Germans didn't it? Read some military history before the ghosts or grandparents of the British find this post and laugh at you.

Crushing air dominance without ground support doesn't work at securing the win. Besides as others have mentioned including myself you can't afford to blow up everything.

Who frickin' cares about the EvE IP?  I doubt even EvE roleplayers like it.

They don't only because CCP has continually fucked up in their efforts to cater to that community. They want to like Eve and appreciate the backstory but they are less than thrilled with how well that backstory has been integrated into the core game among other problems.

Except the only people who gives a shit about interacting with EVE are currently playing the game.

Because the gameplay appeals to them. Duh.

This is why people in other industries broaden the appeal of their products by promoting their IP in other markets.

CCP is going to be in a bind though if they fail to make a game that attracts this broader market they are trying to get into.

Hopefully they are successful to the point they start branching out into Smartphones so I can get my Eve Offline fix :)

[Sir T]

Well CCP has done it usual strategy for anything controvertial. Lock all the threads on it, move the "discussion" to one thread on one of the least trafficked parts of the official forums. And in a week or so they will lock it without any comment and do whatever they feel like. Que the vultures.

Sorry guys, this is going to suck ass.

Who frickin' cares about the EvE IP?  I doubt even EvE roleplayers like it.

They don't only because CCP has continually fucked up in their efforts to cater to that community. They want to like Eve and appreciate the backstory but they are less than thrilled with how well that backstory has been integrated into the core game among other problems.

I know people in the eve roleplaying community. This statement is 100% true. They even told CCP that the Gallante would be hammered in the recent faction warfare upgrade but CCP ignored them, again, and they have been proven right, again.

CCP has fucked up nearly everything they have implemented off their own bat.

[gryeyes]

The lore and setting for EVE is awesome, its not really present in the game. I think theres even novels and PnP stuff out now?

[UnSub]

I think it is a good move - gets players who would probably never touch EvE playing in the EvE universe.

Plus it is creating (and will create) the only thing EvE is good for: drama.

[Hawkbit]

Plus it is creating (and will create) the only thing EvE is good for: drama.

Pretty sure we're full up after only three pages.

[UnSub]

Plus it is creating (and will create) the only thing EvE is good for: drama.

Pretty sure we're full up after only three pages.

Are you kidding? DUST offers the chance for YEARS worth of drama. All the "I took the system but my opponent paid off all the mercenaries" and "Goonswarm has all the best consoletards" and the like. It'll be awesome.

[Goumindong]

Oh yes Exterminatus worked really well for the Germans didn't it? Read some military history before the ghosts or grandparents of the British find this post and laugh at you.

Crushing air dominance without ground support doesn't work at securing the win. Besides as others have mentioned including myself you can't afford to blow up everything.

Eve is not earth, you can absolutely afford to just blow everything up. Its one of the core tenets in the lore and its a logical conclusion when you're dealing with populations which are neither tied to planets, and are spread across a galaxy of 5,000 systems with multiple planets each. There is no MAD in play here that prevents blowing things up from being profitable. There is no technological limitation that would prevent them from doing it.

[patience]

Eve is not earth, you can absolutely afford to just blow everything up. Its one of the core tenets in the lore

And in that lore they never needed or used soldiers...

You are right that in Eve MAD scenario doesn't exist but I wasn't referring to MAD at all.

[Hoax]

This is amazing because its amazing in just how daring CCP is willing to be who the fuck looks at this idea and says, oh yeah lets do this.  Crazy.  I'm not sure why they didn't branch into rts instead of fps but w/e the balls they show makes me love them so damn much.

[schild]

This is amazing because its amazing in just how daring CCP is willing to be who the fuck looks at this idea and says, oh yeah lets do this.  Crazy.  I'm not sure why they didn't branch into rts instead of fps but w/e the balls they show makes me love them so damn much.

I'm not sure those are balls you're seeing.

[Falwell]

The major reason people are pissed in the Eve community is that it's, apparently, consoles only. I don't think there's a snowball's chance in hell of that holding and I think they'll announce a PC version at Fanfest. IF they do that, CCP is gonna pick up a lot of steam with this bad boy, and rightfully so.

Question on consoles as I'm WAY out of the loop. Do console games have to specifically support a mouse or does the hardware force integration where it can?

[gryeyes]

 I'm not sure why they didn't branch into rts instead of fps but w/e the balls they show makes me love them so damn much.

You missed the memo its a RTS/FPS hybrid. But ya they do have balls, I am sorely disappointed there was no update on WoD. 

[Comstar]

A lot of the complaining would disappear if it was PC rather than Console only.

As is, the only way I can see it working is if the console players interact with the PC players like NPCs via a market screen. We buy them planets to fight over, they buy our guns/tanks/ammo. The planet fights themselves don't effect sov in space and sov in space dosn't effect planet sov.

Seeing as CCP has no experience in a FPS, much less a console game, and it took them 5 YEARS of post-launch to get the game to a useful state, and the one big CCP has done, of 1000+ player battles ,don't count for a console FPS, I can see the game being a clusterfuck for everyone.

Going to create a lot of Drama though, which is always a good thing to watch. From a distance.

[Endie]

I couldn't read the whiny Goonfleet thread on this, but I will say this: there is only one alliance in Eve which can draw on a larger base of console players than it has of Eve players, without necessarily having to shift a single one away from playing Eve to do so.  In case some of you want to work it out for yourselves I'll not spell it out, but it rhymes with Poonfleet.

And now, the awful derail: