APB: Finally, I Can Be A PUNK!

[Musashi]

Even though he can't spell to save his own life and his grammar is balls.

Seriously, though.  He's gone too far in this thread.  This game isn't worth it, Bloodworth.  I'm sure there will be people here who will play with you when it releases, if that's why you're so hell bent on defending this turd.  Take a deep breath.  You've done all you can here, one way or the other.

[LK]

I find Bloodworth's enthusiasm for games a refreshing change from the rest of the pessimism and negativity that is the mainstay for this forum, even when he is completely wrong.  I also find that he generally comes off far more intelligent, and clearheaded than  the rest of you who get caught up on incorrect word usage and enjoy repeating what has been said in 5 different fonts.

Pessimism and negativity come from a very experienced background in game industry practices. Cautious optimism is reserved from people that don't promise the moon, hide the faults, and deliver something that's actually fun. You'll find plenty of games on here that we discuss with the respect they deserve because *they aren't pieces of shit being passed off as Gold (Master)*.

Also, let's get specific. You're using blanket statements for individual circumstances. Bloodworth's enthusiasm for APB, not games, though in general he is, and there hasn't been too much concern about that except in this very, very specific example. You're talking about me, not "the rest of you", though I haven't done anything that anyone else here hasn't done, but it'd seem weird for you to comment on other people's tactics in other threads instead of what I've done here. Perhaps most insulting is you attempting to criticize the entire board's population and hoist Bloodworth as a paragon of excellence, an example to follow. I bet I could see your ego from orbit.

Who the fuck are you again?

[Outlawedprod]

Someone mentioned WAR and Aion box sales success... I don't see how this can sell more boxes than WAR or Aion.  Fantasy mmo is the realm of PC audience.  This game ties in more to the Xbox/PS crowd which is strange if the gameplay was going to be this limited why didn't they make this an Xbox game.  It feels like an Xbox game to me.

The biggest failure of the gameplay and mission design to me is that they failed to learn the lessons of Saints Row 2 vs GTA4.  The advancement is far too complicated and is not explained at all.  You have me do 4 missions in the intro to teach me the game but in reality it taught me nothing other than I will be pressing F a lot.  I also don't like getting spammed with do this or do that every few minutes.  None of this would matter if it wasn't for the fact that gameplay is greatly impacted by the advancement because they aren't just some random achievements that do nothing.  Until Bloodworth posted that stuff I didn't even realize these roles and perks existed.  You could argue that you're supposed to go online and read up on this stuff on their website or something but in this day and age I believe if you cannot encapsulate a full disclosure on gameplay and system mechanics into your tutorial you have failed.  People like to make fun of the simplicity of Nintendo games but there is a reason they are fun to play and sell.  People don't like to read instructions, the N games simplify gameplay and usually add some stuff to give just enough depth for the hardcore players, and you can jump right in and feel like you are having fun.  More companies need to examine this philosophy or improve their ability to create an incredible tutorial.

Bloodworth's comments about just going around doing stuff and eventually you get them just didn't seem to work out for me as a criminal.  As far as my comment about 4 stars earlier I don't think I ever hit 5 no matter how many cars I blew up or people I ran over.  Maybe it wasn't 4 stars but that other rep level was at 4 that got me the APB.  It was never explained to me beforehand so at the time I really didn't know WTF was happening when I would get an APB every 10 minutes or so.

What I wanted was an online sandbox GTA type experience with some cool action whether that's through missions or open world stuff.  I wanted to take a car ram it into city hall and try to shoot the mayor and see how long I could live before every enforcer in the city would come down on me.  There's nothing cool like that or robbing a bank.  What incentive do I have to do this stuff?  If the impetus is to just round and do shit till something cool happens how the hell is that better than the pvp or interaction in any other mmo?  That feels just like a glorified battleground.  If it's just to shoot people there are a lot of other games.  The gameplay is subpar to crackdown or GTA so the multiplayer would have to make up for it but it just doesn't click for me because of all the hurdles I went through to make the mission multiplayer actually fun.  Now they do have some open world stuff but the world seems pretty limited by the 80 player cap.  I rammed a truck into a store and some loot was there but I had no idea wtf I was supposed to do next.  It made me hold the loot doesn't just go into the bottomless sack inventory so I didn't know how I was supposed to cash it in.  I did manage to figure out you can jack a car and take it to some point for money (when I saw the blue icon on the screen I thought it was where I could take the car to own it permanently).  

Markers on screen.  That's another problem for me.  If you match make me against another group and I have to find them for the objective why do they disappear off the minimap so fast sometimes.  I can see if they get to the edge and get far away they should disappear but why can't they linger on the main map for 5 seconds or so.  Mission objectives don't always have the minmap marker for me either I can't figure that out.  Sometimes I'll be facing north and it won't show the minimap marker arrow for the next point if it's like due south.  I turn due south and move forward and then it shows up.  

Well on one hand the loosening of the discussion embargo by the RTW rep did one thing.  This thread is now longer than the Dsmart thread =p

[Outlawedprod]

As a separate thought I wanted to mention something about customization.  Blizzard has the most successful mmo on the market as we all know.  I think a dance editor for WoW has been asked for by subscribers for a long time and Blizzard themselves have mentioned it in interviews as something that would be interesting to have.  With all the money and power they have it could easily have been done if they wanted.  Except I think most realize that ultimately it's just an extra and is not going to keep people playing because they come back for the quests/loot grind/combat.

I certainly hope some of the good things involving customization in this game are appropriated by other devs.  They certainly can bring folks to the table but I can't see them being the main selling point unless your game is some Sims type of experience.

[caladein]

I bought this game, some of my friends have bought this game.  We will derive some enjoyment out of our purchases, but there is no way I'm defending APB as a game.  That's crazyness.

It's like I have no desire to defend my 1000+ hours spent in Matrix Online, even though I enjoyed it quite a bit.  Fun was had, but not really because the game was any good.  I enjoyed it (and have and will enjoy my time in APB) purely because I'm playing with friends and will gets lots of "Remember that one time..." stories to tell when we're playing a much, much better game and something similar but not nearly as memorable happens.

[kildorn]

I find Bloodworth's enthusiasm for games a refreshing change from the rest of the pessimism and negativity that is the mainstay for this forum, even when he is completely wrong.  I also find that he generally comes off far more intelligent, and clearheaded than  the rest of you who get caught up on incorrect word usage and enjoy repeating what has been said in 5 different fonts.

Exactly. Without Hope to compare ourselves to, we'd all think this was a normal feeling, and not decades of bitter disappointment after bitter disappointment ;)

[Outlawedprod]

I think part of the problem with this game's responses is a mixed message from the dev and their PR.  That response they had to the RPS post pretty much is all about customization and seeing the world.  Obviously it's PR speak but still I don't think I've seen anything in the promo videos or dev interviews that were ever released that talked about the incredible gameplay and action they are going to deliver.

Exactly. Without Hope to compare ourselves to, we'd all think this was a normal feeling, and not decades of bitter disappointment after bitter disappointment ;)

I think this guy lost hope
http://savygamer.co.uk/2010/06/17/apb-review/

[FatuousTwat]

Who the fuck are you again?

[Hoax]

Bloodworth, you are not shilling. You are possessed.

How's Vanguard treating you these days?

Are you implying that Bloodworth will come up with a public apology and the admission that the game is shit in about a month the same way I did?

Besides, I didn't mean he's possessed because he likes the game a lot, even though I am not used to these levels of rabid fanboism on the f13 boards. I said it because he can't refrain from posting, he's getting voracious and compulsive as the sane child of some famous insane posters who have their own dedicated thread on these boards. He seems out of control and unable to stop. He's haunting the APB thread as an aroused poltergeist, helping people like a community manager, fixing holes in RTW bad GUI choices like an excited producer and providing links to advertising interviews like a marketing grunt. It's only a matter of minutes after anyone posts anything in this thread before Bloodworth comes to help, link, fix, suggest, debate, point out, agree, disagree, or simply battle for APB's "right" to be appreciated in full.

I don't understand what the hell happened to him, he really seems possessed by a nasty APB demon which compels him to post and link all he can about the game right before someone finally calls an exorcist.


I have different memories about the Vanguard saga, but if this is what I did, I guess I had that exorcism and I am glad I stopped. For the apologies, use the search function.

You are both forgetting that Falconeer went on to do the exact same shit in the Aion thread. Much the same way that MBW did a more minor version of his current schtick in the Global Agenda thread, there wasn't as much of a flame war though because nobody gives a fuck about Global Agenda because it sucks.

This is one of the better posts so far.

I think many people are selling the core gameplay short. The driving takes some serious taking used to but there is skill to it and you can master the various npc cars, if the pc cars are much better in terms of speed/handling the driving game itself is quite good. The shooting is not all roses but it gets the job done, ambushes, sniping, mowing down etc. APB's shooter elements are as I said earlier are better than f2p fps games I used to dabble in and watch my little brother play.

If you couldn't even enjoy the core gameplay for 5 hours you either:
a) don't like the core gameplay and should stop posting in this thread
b) aren't very good at these things and got curbstomped too much which is bound to happen in a 100% pvp game and can be quite unpleasant with the global voip and cross faction tells allowed (smart move there lol).

I think everyone involved in large part just couldn't l2p because the whole game is poorly explained and introduced on every fucking level the fact that one stubborn defender keeps trying to avoid admitting that clearly RTW just doesn't understand some shit that should be really obvious game making 101 and if you get that wrong we can be pretty safe betting that have and will get other shit wrong as well.

[Kageru]

To my mind anything that educates the consumer should almost be protected by law. If the product is asking for money then that is when their ability to control information sources ends. And since reviews are going to be written on launch it would seem in their interests that these are reviews from people who have fully experienced the game rather than those rushing to write a review from the retail copy they just got. Doubly so for a game where gameplay mechanics are not initially obvious.

But really, it does make you appreciate the skill and confidence of Blizzard that they could run a no-NDA beta and the multiple degrees of fail we've had since then.

[Rendakor]

Hoax, you're saying that the core gameplay and shooting are better than the average f2p fps title; that would make APB a fine game if it was also f2p. Since it's box cost + sub (or hourly fee or whatever) that's not a fair comparison.

[Hoax]

Hoax, you're saying that the core gameplay and shooting are better than the average f2p fps title; that would make APB a fine game if it was also f2p. Since it's box cost + sub (or hourly fee or whatever) that's not a fair comparison.

It is the comparison though. I tried comparing the core shooter gameplay to Planetside and Global Agenda (it is better than both) but people complained about that as well.  Is it a better shooter then any true team fps with vehicles? Not even kind of. The controls aren't nearly as tight, the gun variety is very lackluster crouching and leaning is currently only toggle instead of hold are my top three complaints.  But it is a much more dynamic and fluid match making system, the witnessing back up dispatch systems are neat and despite complaints about the world size I'd still say its more fun then just playing de_dust 24/7 servers.  Also like all MMO's the other humans make the game for you or they don't if you are most f13 posters who really hate playing with other people which is something that has confounded the shit out of me for the past five years. Be warned though there is going to be so much bad player interaction in this game. Open mic? Cross faction whispering? Full customization? Thugs? Think about it. There will be very very bad things happening but also some gems that you just don't really get from a standard fps.

For example, I rolled another account and put in 5 hours of action on the crim side yesterday and today this was my second time playing so I knew what I was doing. I basically just grabbed the SMG and the ammo resupply character upgrade which is really all you want or need until you get to the organization level 6-8 guns and only took response/dispatch/backup missions against big teams.

During a mission that was 5 v 4 where we had to set 3 objectives on fire and the enforcers needed X kills and there was no timelimit both sides were very organized. The enforcers though were talking on voice the whole time and I could hear them, which was awesome. We barely barely barely won (they needed 1 more kill) we finally broke through and got them all, they got back just as we set it on fire 2 people had to run from the firefight and if they had died we would have lost. You know, close tight fun pvp the good stuff. BUT the whole matchmaking + world thing really shone through on this one. I leave the scene of the mission, back in my group of one on my newb toon and all the enforcers are loading up into a car and I walk up to them and say over mic "IGNORE ME!" as I steal a car right in front of them and run away since the matchmaker wasn't going to give them a mission against me 4 v 1 at my low level. Much hilarity ensued.

[Ghambit]

Oh dear, even the devs/publishers know this game is shit: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2010/06/17/apb-review-embargo-set-week-after-release/#more-32106

[Threash]

While the game is clearly no where near as fun as Bloodworth would have you believe it is almost not nearly as bad as everyone else is claiming.  Free to play after box sale with a cash shop and they would get a sale from me.

[Lantyssa]

Free to play after box sale with a cash shop and they would get a sale from me.

That's the operative phrase.  It's not though.  Their pay model is not appealing in the least.

[FatuousTwat]

I don't really get what people are talking about with the driving, yeah it's floaty, but so was GTAIVs, and they both took about the same amount of time to get used to.


Agreed with the F2P thing.

[Kageru]

I think the open world is largely a dis-incentive. When I want to shoot things in BC2 I can log on, find a server with ~30 people on it and hop into the action. And if the other side is a bunch of organized clan people rolling PUG's I can leave and find another. Having to run to the battle, battles that are imbalanced and start from unequal positions and no easy way to find a more balanced battle quickly just sounds like something that would get old real fast.

I mean if they come out with an open world FPS that has good progression (even if only customisation) and supports really large scale strategic battlegrounds with some sort of persistent progression to the battle I'd play it even if the shooty wasn't competitive with traditional FPS games. But if all the game is offering in terms of gameplay is small scale skirmish action with bad balance I don't see the allure at all once I've become bored of the cusomisation. Global agenda was the same with their AvA devolving to small skirmish battles and a really abstract strategic level.

[jakonovski]

You mean...

No formal reviews of the Beta. This means:

* No posts about the Beta in the BiiF forum
* No grades/points in your posts (e.g. graphics = A/90, gameplay = B/80, overall=B/80)
* No non-personal play/don't play statements. It's okay to say to say you will or will not play at release but no blanket statements about whether you think other people should play or not play.

Your statement and what's put there is very different. I think the keyword is "No formal reviews of the Beta."

I was actually trying to make a bit of a joke. Because it would be awesome if some random person bought the game retail and got banned for reviewing it.

[Falconeer]

I tried comparing the core shooter gameplay to Planetside and Global Agenda (it is better than both)

I disagree. And not even better than Crimecraft, which is the closest thing to APB (and of course F2P).

[Hoax]

I tried comparing the core shooter gameplay to Planetside and Global Agenda (it is better than both)

I disagree. And not even better than Crimecraft, which is the closest thing to APB (and of course F2P).

Anyone on this board who doesn't know your opinion is suspect as fuck at this point deserves what they get. Also we're purely talking about shooter elements not the games in their entirety. Global Agenda is fucking undeniable shit -feeling not only floaty but clunky which are too things that shouldn't even be possible to be at the same time- and Planetside is getting a whole ton of rose glasses treatment from everyone AND had the absolute worst cone of fire in any game that I can think of.

[caladein]

I never played Planetside, but I think Global Agenda has better shooter mechanics than APB by some distance.  I said this before, but the only recent "shooter" I've played that's worse than APB on its shooting mechanics is Alpha Protocol.

[Falconeer]

Honestly, you might be right on the rose glasses when it comes to Planetside, nostalgia plays tricks on me, but I like the shooter elements of Global Agenda more than APB's. Also, Crimecraft. Have you tried it?

That said, I don't think neither Global Agenda or Crimecraft are that good when it comes to pure shooter elements, they are pure F2P material. But I find them mildly more satisfying than APB's.

[jakonovski]

Looks like the embargo article spawned some fallout:

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2010/06/17/apb-statement-from-realtime-worlds/
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2010/06/18/an-ancient-argument/

[Lantyssa]

Anyone on this board who doesn't know your opinion is suspect as fuck at this point deserves what they get. Also we're purely talking about shooter elements not the games in their entirety. Global Agenda is fucking undeniable shit -feeling not only floaty but clunky which are too things that shouldn't even be possible to be at the same time- and Planetside is getting a whole ton of rose glasses treatment from everyone AND had the absolute worst cone of fire in any game that I can think of.

For me, vehicle reactions were a second behind and usually responded by turning far more than justified for how long I had my hand on the key.  I got better at it, but it was still bad and very easy to over-stear.  Aiming was far more difficult than either of those games.  With a sniper rifle I would try to line up my shots and quite often wobble on either side of a stationary target.  There wasn't enough fidelity.  Trying to hit a moving target was worse.

Now I'll admit to not being that great at shooters, but if I can't line up a shot because I'm fighting the game rather than my own reflexes, something is wrong.

[Sky]

I don't really get what people are talking about with the driving, yeah it's floaty, but so was GTAIVs, and they both took about the same amount of time to get used to.

I'm currently playing GTA4, so I'm pretty familiar with the driving in GTA4 right now.

APB's driving doesn't compare.

Also:

Actually, there is no official support for controllers in first release. We have seen it working, but we're not supporting it officially for now.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

Driving calls for analog control. Sure, some people get ok with digital controls, but it's still inherently jerky. Going from a game where I can make subtle adjustments and use an analog gas pedal to straight digital on a keyboard. Not even a comparison, and for a game that features driving as a main component, that's pretty piss-poor.

Planetside is getting a whole ton of rose glasses treatment from everyone AND had the absolute worst cone of fire in any game that I can think of.

My specialty was the thumper - a grenade launcher. Although I prefer it in most games (I love trajectory fire), it's especially good for mmo fps. The grenade launcher in TR was a lot of fun, and also colored my perspective on that game, which I enjoyed quite a bit.

[HaemishM]

Also like all MMO's the other humans make the game for you or they don't if you are most f13 posters who really hate playing with other people which is something that has confounded the shit out of me for the past five years. Be warned though there is going to be so much bad player interaction in this game. Open mic? Cross faction whispering? Full customization? Thugs? Think about it. There will be very very bad things happening but also some gems that you just don't really get from a standard fps.

Actually, the people themselves didn't bother me at all, even dying to the same fucker. What bothered me boiled down to the mechanics. How do I pump multiple shots into a person, see the blood spray indicating a hit and then die to one shot from this fucker who according to the GUI was armed with the exact same gun as me? That happened WAY TOO MUCH. Even if it was my lack of skill (something I firmly admit to), the game sure didn't make that clear. That's where the frustration started - the game is unclear about a lot of things which contribute to whether or not you'll be able to compete.

Yes, there are moments of amazing fun in the game. Crashing into shit, blowing up a car with a guy in it, when those things happen they are fun. But they aren't enough to sustain the game for me, to overlook the frustration, and certainly not to pay a sub fee or even for a box + $7/20 hours.

[Koyasha]

What bothered me boiled down to the mechanics. How do I pump multiple shots into a person, see the blood spray indicating a hit and then die to one shot from this fucker who according to the GUI was armed with the exact same gun as me? That happened WAY TOO MUCH.

That is something that's really starting to bug me, too.  I score a bunch of hits, I know they're hits because I see blood spatter, the enemy doesn't die, then he hits me just one to three times and I die, and he has the same damn gun.  I could fully accept it when I miss because I suck at FPS aiming, but I didn't miss - I was hitting, as evidenced by the blood spray.  So why were my hits so much less effective?

[Morfiend]

What bothered me boiled down to the mechanics. How do I pump multiple shots into a person, see the blood spray indicating a hit and then die to one shot from this fucker who according to the GUI was armed with the exact same gun as me? That happened WAY TOO MUCH.

That is something that's really starting to bug me, too.  I score a bunch of hits, I know they're hits because I see blood spatter, the enemy doesn't die, then he hits me just one to three times and I die, and he has the same damn gun.  I could fully accept it when I miss because I suck at FPS aiming, but I didn't miss - I was hitting, as evidenced by the blood spray.  So why were my hits so much less effective?

I also found this happening to me a lot. In fact, its my main source of my frustration with the game.

[Morfiend]

I tried comparing the core shooter gameplay to Planetside and Global Agenda (it is better than both)

I disagree. And not even better than Crimecraft, which is the closest thing to APB (and of course F2P).

Anyone on this board who doesn't know your opinion is suspect as fuck at this point deserves what they get. Also we're purely talking about shooter elements not the games in their entirety. Global Agenda is fucking undeniable shit -feeling not only floaty but clunky which are too things that shouldn't even be possible to be at the same time- and Planetside is getting a whole ton of rose glasses treatment from everyone AND had the absolute worst cone of fire in any game that I can think of.

I have to totally disagree. I think the core shooting elements of Global Agenda are pretty good, besides the no hit boxes thing. I personally feel the core game for GA is better than any of these other FPS/MMO hybrids that have come out recently.

[Furiously]

What bothered me boiled down to the mechanics. How do I pump multiple shots into a person, see the blood spray indicating a hit and then die to one shot from this fucker who according to the GUI was armed with the exact same gun as me? That happened WAY TOO MUCH.

That is something that's really starting to bug me, too.  I score a bunch of hits, I know they're hits because I see blood spatter, the enemy doesn't die, then he hits me just one to three times and I die, and he has the same damn gun.  I could fully accept it when I miss because I suck at FPS aiming, but I didn't miss - I was hitting, as evidenced by the blood spray.  So why were my hits so much less effective?

I also found this happening to me a lot. In fact, its my main source of my frustration with the game.

Range.

[FatuousTwat]

Err, isn't the person going to be the same distance from you as you are from him?

[TripleDES]

That is something that's really starting to bug me, too.  I score a bunch of hits, I know they're hits because I see blood spatter, the enemy doesn't die, then he hits me just one to three times and I die, and he has the same damn gun.  I could fully accept it when I miss because I suck at FPS aiming, but I didn't miss - I was hitting, as evidenced by the blood spray.  So why were my hits so much less effective?

This game works like the Battlefield series. If you see blood on anything that isn't a stationary character, you've missed. APB features the same hit indicators around the reticule as in BF.

[Hoax]

I have to totally disagree. I think the core shooting elements of Global Agenda are pretty good, besides the no hit boxes thing. I personally feel the core game for GA is better than any of these other FPS/MMO hybrids that have come out recently.

Agree to disagree then. Everything about the gameplay in Global Agenda makes the game into a very slow and stale experience. The rediculous melee flailing looked and played like ass and the jump jets were an insult to anyone who had ever played Tribes though it sounds like they have taken at least a step towards improving them in recent weeks.

[Ghambit]

Hoax, are you playing this thing??  Your tenor since the beginning of this thread seems to have shifted into pre-order mode.  If your cheap ass is buying this game, I might consider actually doing so myself.

[LK]

My rage for this game has subsided. I'm not going to play it, even though I wish I could play around with the avatar customizer with all options unlocked. If you guys like it, by all means, play it. The game seems fun at first until you discover how deep the rabbit hole goes. Or, in this case, sink hole.