APB: Finally, I Can Be A PUNK!

[lesion]

When it comes to payment, you want players to be thinking as little as possible about it, rather than thinking about if they got enough value from 50 hours to put some more cash in.

Which means this is a good thing, right? Supporting quality over mindless dickery? The fall of the almighty dollar! Utopia! Healthy bacon!

[NiX]

Which means this is a good thing, right? Supporting quality over mindless dickery? The fall of the almighty dollar! Utopia! Healthy bacon!

I just realized you started posting again.

[Mrbloodworth]

I saw that too.

I can see the decision making process that goes, "This will be GTA Online - the business model will build itself!" but it is flawed because actually collecting money is critical to seeing the game continue to live. It also influences design decisions.

I don't disagree with some of their pricing options - pay for hours rather than a month's unlimited subscription if you want - but I think they should have put the model they preferred out there as the default (which would be a monthly payment, not 50 hours with the box) and then get the player to opt out if they choose to. When it comes to payment, you want players to be thinking as little as possible about it, rather than thinking about if they got enough value from 50 hours to put some more cash in.

Thing is, he did say right in that article that the game is not designed for people to sit there and play 12 hour sessions, its oriented to be played like other titles not in the MMO sphere. As far as the creation of the payment plan, I did not read it as dire as you guys do apparently. Reads to me like they waited to form the payment model until they knew what the game play was to be like, who they wanted to target and how much people typically play games of this nature per month (market research). Lets be real here, 50 hours in a month is a good chunk of play sessions spread out, i would almost dare to say that most here even in traditional MMO's do not put that much time in, the other large factor is those hours only go towards time in action zones, its is completely irrelevant to the time you put in the social areas.

As for the pay for the ours you use, I think its brilliant, especially for me, I can pick up 20 hours (that can be used at any time) for the price of a few snacks and log on and play with friends infrequently. That's much better for many who most likely never use what they pay for in a pay 15 a month system, to me its time wasted as ill never use it all, I don't think i ever have. No worry about recurring fees, no worry about accounts and CC numbers linked. Play when I want, for however long I want, and none of it is wasted as time passes. Sure, perhaps the monthly payment is a better deal, but not when you factor in at the end of the month, time used or not, im out of time VS. Pay for hours when I play.

Lets face it, people are more transient thies days, there are to many games not to be, and the subscription system seems to be falling by the wayside more and more.

* Purchase a retail version of APB – either in-store or online.
$49.99 US – £34.99 UK – €49.99 EU (Suggested Retail Pricing)

* APB includes 50 hours of Gametime and unlimited free access to the Social Districts where all of the game's customization takes place

* After the 50 hours of Gametime are consumed, choose either:

* Gametime 20 hours for $6.99 US – £5.59 UK – €6.29 EU – for those who expect to play infrequently. (Gametime Hours never expire)

* Unlimited Gametime 30 days for $9.99 US – £7.99 UK – €8.99 EU – for those who expect to play frequently. (With discounts for 90 day and 180 day selections)

* All Realtime Worlds services, including Gametime packages are purchased with RTW Points – real money values shown above are RTW Points-value equivalents.

* No commitments – you’re only charged when you select additional Gametime to purchase, no automatic payments are required.

* Earn RTW Points by selling your customized creations or rare item rewards on the Marketplace, and use these RTW Points to purchase services such as Gametime packages!

Seems rather awesome to me! Considering they also removed the manufacturing fee.

EDIT: For the record, I have been a good boy, I have not broken the NDA. If using that icon is bad form, why do we have it?

[Sheepherder]

If using that icon is bad form, why do we have it?

So that you can do something in bad form without breaking the NDA, obviously.

[UnSub]

Thing is, he did say right in that article that the game is not designed for people to sit there and play 12 hour sessions, its oriented to be played like other titles not in the MMO sphere.

Then who is their target market? FPS players who want to pay to play where lots of no cost FPS servers exist? Players who wanted multiplayer GTA?

They might not expect people to play APB 12 hours a day, but there will be a group who do. By charging a sub / access fee and promising persistence of character, they've put APB into the MMO sphere no matter how they try to say that comparison isn't valid.

Reads to me like they waited to form the payment model until they knew what the game play was to be like, who they wanted to target and how much people typically play games of this nature per month (market research).

Let's be real here: RTW knew what the game was going to be like - GTA Online. I can't say for sure if where APB is now compared to the original design docs , but the basic template was there from the start.

Who they wanted to target comes to all those players who liked GTA and wanted to form gangs to fight each other, plus MMOFPS players.

There aren't really that many direct comparisons for APB that currently exist, since the MMOFPS genre is still a bit of an under-developed beast. However, the publicly available information indicates APB is a PvP heavy game. You can't do that casually. You can't PvP an hour a week and expect to progress. So there may be players out there who burn through those 20 hours pretty quickly and then they are presented with having to pay more to play. That isn't going to make the FPS player happy, even if they chose the option that didn't suit them.

If you want people to continually play a fee, it isn't a good idea to keep showing them a bill / make them consider if they want to pay up. The 20 hours option is a nice, friendly option to have that presents players with an exit point. It's great for players, but bad for RTW.

Lets be real here, 50 hours in a month is a good chunk of play sessions spread out, i would almost dare to say that most here even in traditional MMO's do not put that much time in, the other large factor is those hours only go towards time in action zones, its is completely irrelevant to the time you put in the social areas.

It doesn't matter about whether 50 hours (or 20 hours) is a lot or a little. It's perceptions of value and a large potential exit point. Personally I think that 50 hours with a box will probably see more APB players around at the end of first month, because they'll still have a varying amount of time left to play. But past that point it is the 20 hours option that worries me (or would, if I were at RTW).

APB is already being charged at less than standard MMO sub prices - a good move imo - but that 20 hour option gives casuals a value check every time it pops up. And if you are only playing a PvP title 20 hours (or less) a month, every time you have to put some money back in you have a chance to wonder if you are actually getting that value back.

On top of that, I think the payment system they announced wasn't as clear or simple as it should have been. Further changes have muddied the waters.

I'm all for some variety in payment models. However, when a senior person pops up and says, "No, we really didn't think about our payment model much until recently, then we announced further changes," I wonder about the future success of their game. Unless they are running a charity, the revenue they collect back is critical to surviving, so you'd expect they'd put some serious time into thinking it through. Unfortunately, even if RTW has spent that time, they've ended up with a muddled system.

And we haven't even discussed what RTW points now do, nor the announcement that players might be able to earn extra play-time in-game.

As much as Hellgate: London failed due to bugs, its poorly thought out payment model was critical in its destruction (on Flagship's side, anyway).

[Sky]

Planetside showed just how adamant most fps players are against a fee, despite delivering a game experience they couldn't get with any free fps, and the fee being a goddamned pittance (I paid about the same as contribution to hosting our clan's server for bf1942 back in the day, because truly free fps is  ). And the GTA crowd wants to pony up for the box and be done with it.

It's an odd market niche, and they're approaching it from a funny angle.

[Mrbloodworth]

I guess I just see it as appealing personally, and, thats its a good middle ground. *shrug* But you are right, most users do not realize someone is paying for the servers in any FPS, its just not them. So, I don't think there is anyway around that perception other than to continue to offer more and more MMOFPS type games with middle ground fees. Its not like APB is the first, and it sure won't be the last.

[Margalis]

Thing is, he did say right in that article that the game is not designed for people to sit there and play 12 hour sessions, its oriented to be played like other titles not in the MMO sphere.

Other titles are free.

I don't buy that they waited until the end to figure out a business model, this reeks of business model in search of a game. They knew they were going to make GTA Online and they knew there was going to be a recurring revenue model. Period. Maybe they didn't nail down the exact details of how much it would cost etc but from day one the POINT of the game was recurring revenue.

Pretty much exactly the same deal as Hellgate with exactly the same question: why exactly am I paying for this?

[Mrbloodworth]

APB Dave Jones and Jesse Knapp Interview

Other titles are free.

That's incorrect, your just not the one paying. I am sure many players do indeed think they are free though.

As for what are you paying for, take a look at current Unreal hosting prices and player counts. Now, imagine the server you will need to rent to host 100 players, and all the streamed customization data (buffer made images, music, logos, appearance) and persistence, and AI logic ETC... That's all for one instance.

I don't think you could afford it.

[UnSub]

That's incorrect, your just not the one paying. I am sure many players do indeed think they are free though.

It's free from the player perspective (which is why EA's Project $10 is coming under fire from certain players). That's what counts.

I can't see APB existing for long as a box sale + sub fee model + microtrans. It'll have to move to box sale + F2P (or maybe even F2P, much like CrimeCraft).

[Mrbloodworth]

Time will tell, perhaps i am jaded because comparatively, this system is cheaper, and more flexible than any other MMO I may play (other than perhaps, some FtP titles, but there the cash shop/grind issue)

It's a persistent online game and as a result as on-going costs. These 50 hours don't have an expiration date and if you do run out you can buy an unlimited package which is a lot cheaper than many other persistent games/mmos out there. The payment model is designed to be flexible for all types of players. If you're good enough in the editors you will be able to play for free.

Whats not to like?

EIDT: and isn't this basically the payment model for most MMO's in Asian territories?

[UnSub]

It's PvP only. PvP-centric titles aren't for casual players. And its main competitors only charge the box cost to start (and keep) playing.

[Mrbloodworth]

It's PvP only. PvP-centric titles aren't for casual players. And its main competitors only charge the box cost to start (and keep) playing.

I know, you keep saying this, I just don't agree.

[Malakili]

It's PvP only. PvP-centric titles aren't for casual players. And its main competitors only charge the box cost to start (and keep) playing.

I know, you keep saying this, I just don't agree.

On which point in particular?

[Mrbloodworth]

Mostly: PvP-centric titles aren't for casual players.

Mostly though, I'm not sure me and Unsub are in any real disagreement, other than He feels that a sub for this game type isn't worth it, I don't. Everything else is not really relevant, and neither of us know if we are right.

I agree, most users think FPS games are free after the box price, so I am interested in how all this shakes out. TBH, I see this as one model where the "hardcore" (uses the most resources) are not subsidized by the "casuals" (pays for way more than they use), hence the push back. Thing is, they also offer month to month, and its a better deal.

[Stormwaltz]

Mostly: PvP-centric titles aren't for casual players.

This casual gamer politely disagrees with you.

What makes an FPS casual is playing it with friends, laughing as I get shot in the face by a coworker. I know the guy, he knows me, it's not personal and it's all good.

PvP against strangers is not casual, it's competitive. You can't be casually competitive.

[Mrbloodworth]

Mostly: PvP-centric titles aren't for casual players.

This casual gamer politely disagrees with you.

This one politely disagrees with you.  

The problem is people are comparing FPS, that are mostly a large group of individuals doing there own thing, to this title, that is clearly oriented to group based play and team work.

You guys are giving the same complaints that solo players did in Planetisde. I would 100% agree with you if this was any other FPS thats just about kill counts, and e-peens and lots of people working alone even while on teams until he server resets.

You guys need to keep up, really: Instant Action.com, Quake live, Battlefield heroes, global agenda, the agency on facebook, Team Fortress 2, Combat arms, crime craft. You are saying NONE of those can be played casually.

But still, what does any of that have to do with two options in pricing, casual when you want time, or monthly. We already went over the "is it worth it to you" discussion.


Unrelated:

Hello, my name is EJ Moreland and I have been involved in the development of APB for the last three years as the Lead Designer. I'd like to take a moment to talk about APB and the choices we've made.
 advertisement

What is APB?

For those who haven't heard of it, APB is a persistent - online - action game that focuses on player creativity and player-to-player conflict. Players participate in fast-paced third-person combat across a sprawling urban city and have a comprehensive set of customization editors at their finger tips to create their own unique designs for imagery, clothing, vehicles, and music.

Ultimately, we believe players will show off their prowess at the action game or their creativity with the customization - or both - to become a celebrity within the community.

What's so different about APB?

Well, for starters, we're an action game, not an RPG, and though we do have progression, the focus of combat is your ability to put the cross-hairs on your opponent, work within small-group tactics, and know your surroundings. Add diverse urban environments with a hundred players where the combat moves between alleys, main streets, and even in frantic car chases across the city and we believe APB isn't your typical online game.

Another key difference is that we are purely a player-versus-player game and all your teammates and opponents are living, breathing human beings. To accomplish this, we've created a matchmaking system that lives in the background and does its work while you're playing rather than making you wait in lobbies to find ideal opponents.

Lastly, APB is about players expressing their creativity and tastes. Starting with your avatar, you customize physical details with a myriad of choices, including body size, hair, scars, muscularity, ethnicity, facial structure, and even tattoos, which can be created by you in the Symbol Designer.

However, we don't stop with physical appearance. You can also use the same imagery created in the Symbol Designer to create clothing designs with hundreds of clothing choices at your disposal - shape, texture, coloring of various aspects, and image design/placement.

You can do the same for several types of player-owned vehicles including paint schemes, additional physical and audio components, and the same powerful image design and placement choices.

There are even ways to express your creativity and tastes with audio. The Music Studio allows you to create music that can be used as taunts called Death Themes, which play for your opponent when you kill or arrest them. Players can even create longer compositions that can be played from your car or various jukeboxes in the Social areas.

Don't want to make your own music to listen to? We have many licensed music tracks as well as the ability for your to bring your own MP3 library into the game - and play it from your car stereo for others to hear if they have the same track in their library, otherwise our music matching will use last.fm technology to find a comparable track for their listening pleasure.

"Create. Conflict." is not just a catchy tag-line... it is what makes APB something quite different.

Check your expectations at the door

We're an open-world, urban action game where Criminals fight Enforcers - it's seems easy to have expectations such as " online" or "Cops and Robbers online", right?

Not exactly. We certainly share some similarities with both expectations above but we recommend coming into APB with an open mind - it shares as much with experiences like Counter-strike as it does with any open world crime game.

All Points Bulletin is something that we feel is completely different than what's out there online or offline - and at its core it's about you... your tastes, your creations, your skill, and your stories.

See you in San Paro.

Source

[Sky]

Sure, jump into an online fps that's been around a few years and try to enjoy anything but the comedy of your quick and relentless dirt-napping as you are screamed at by vets for not having every map and route not memorized. Very casual-friendly. Then let those vets buy better things to pwn you with.

What could go wrong?

Stormwaltz bring up the only casual way to enjoy fps. Outside maybe my crazy taxi runs in bf2, since everyone had unlocks and played so much, I would just try to ferry players from spawn points to the front lines, or what I felt was a good destination. Just drive unarmored vehicles around like a madman without shooting people. But that's not really playing as intended, eh?

[Mrbloodworth]

So, all FPS games are only played by those that got it at launch, AND play all day.

Got it.

For the record though, I was referring to casual play time, not skill ETC.. Its still moot, the game has both monthly, and by the hour options.

[Engels]

I'm gonna side with Bloodworth here. I think we need to redefine the term 'casual', because according to Stormwaltz, I'm an anomaly playing BF:BC2 for an 20 minutes to an hour every other day. Sure, its taken me a bit of time not to die constantly, but it didn't require serious catassing to do so. No more than CoD MW or W@W.

[Stormwaltz]

I use "casual gamer" in the sense of "non-competitive / play for fun" rather than "plays for two hours a week." I feel "raison de jouer" is a more useful metric in quantifying the style of a gamer than time they invest in gaming.

I play games for around 20 hours a week and have been known to stay up until 7AM doing so. However, I have a relatively low tolerance for frustration and difficulty, so I classify myself as a casual gamer. Conversely, I know people who play FPS very competitively for just a few hours a week and don't mind being headshot over and over and over again. I classify them as hardcore gamers.

[Mrbloodworth]

I use "casual gamer" in the sense of "non-competitive / play for fun" rather than "plays for two hours a week." I feel "raison de jouer" is a more useful metric in quantifying the style of a gamer than time they invest in gaming.

I play games for around 20 hours a week and have been known to stay up until 7AM doing so. However, I have a relatively low tolerance for frustration and difficulty, so I classify myself as a casual gamer. Conversely, I know people who play FPS very competitively for just a few hours a week and don't mind being headshot over and over and over again. I classify them as hardcore gamers.

I seem to break your mold then. I don't have a ton of time, and I don't mind being competitive with the time I have (i'm not even going to claim I am any good). Perhaps you just don't like shooters? The very nature of shooters is one where the scale goes from "Fucking awesome" to "OMGWTF" with little in between. I guess, under your definition, I don't see how offering the pay by hour is a bad thing. If we use your definition, 7$ for 20 hours still seems like the best fit for a "casual". Hell, why pay for time your not going to use with the monthly? Five bad encounters down the line, you were going to take it personal and leave anyway  

I'm gonna side with Bloodworth here. I think we need to redefine the term 'casual', because according to Stormwaltz, I'm an anomaly playing BF:BC2 for an 20 minutes to an hour every other day. Sure, its taken me a bit of time not to die constantly, but it didn't require serious catassing to do so. No more than CoD MW or W@W.

I guess your "hardcore". So you should buy the monthly, or even the lifetime if they offer it (Yeah, i'm being snarky)


But yeah, just to be clear again, when ever I said casual I was referring to playtime, not sure why anything else would matter when talking about game time prices.

[Lantyssa]

Mostly though, I'm not sure me and Unsub are in any real disagreement, other than He feels that a sub for this game type isn't worth it, I don't. Everything else is not really relevant, and neither of us know if we are right.

So how're Global Agenda's numbers doing?

[Mrbloodworth]

Mostly though, I'm not sure me and Unsub are in any real disagreement, other than He feels that a sub for this game type isn't worth it, I don't. Everything else is not really relevant, and neither of us know if we are right.

So how're Global Agenda's numbers doing?

They haven't started charging yet, that's kind of a different beast, its has a large PvE portion, and PvP, and the last bit is what you pay for, Agency VS agency (We can call this end game if you like, and this is where the competition comes in).


The main issue I think is people are more than fine with paying subs for MMORPG, but once you start trying to hybridize and bring in shooter like combat, its gets tricky to fight perceptions, for many of the same reasons Unsub has stated.

[Lantyssa]

I think you missed my point.  Which offers more for the player to do?  How are GA's numbers considering it has yet to start charging?  Do you think APB is going to fare better?

[Sheepherder]

The main issue I think is people are more than fine with paying subs for MMORPG, but once you start trying to hybridize and bring in shooter like combat, its gets tricky to fight perceptions, for many of the same reasons Unsub has stated.

It isn't perception.  I can play a shooter and have the entirety of my costs aside from the box purchase subsidized by complete strangers, who pay money so that I may shoot them in their sandbox.  They set the rules, but I don't give a shit, it's free until I choose that it not be free.

Micro transactions on new skins (guns, cars, clothing - not improved versions, just a nickle-plated handgun rather than matte black) would work.  A regular expansion cycle would also work (alone, in concert with RMT, or packaging large chunks of RMT together).  Lastly, there's the option of letting guilds rent instanced city blocks with housing/hideouts/business fronts where they control contruction, decoration, security, and some of the game rules (guildmates only / allied guilds only / open to the world sort of thing).

[EvilJohn]

Hi all,

Apologies for not being slightly more active/responsive - a) I didn't want to attract masses because of my occasional responses as I don't think the community here would appreciate that, and b) it's been real busy in preparations for our Key to the City (open beta) event and release.

As for the NDA, I prefer respecting the moderators' view on NDAs rather than making exceptions or even implying it - I am a guest of this forum and I have no intention of offending my hosts (including most of you).

That said, the NDA IS coming down very soon - and like every product, there are things folks like and things folks don't.

Just to clarify, our design docs NEVER read "GTA Online - money hatz!". We've done quite a few interviews where we've said a variety of games inspired what we are doing - and we realize it will be a difficult message/experience at first. Everything that is different or unfamiliar has a hard time gaining acceptance - it's why the holiday season is generally filled with sequels or related products from existing/established franchises.

I'll be back when the NDA drops, and do my best to clear up any confusion or misunderstandings about how things work.

I've always believed that APB should speak for itself, and pretty much everybody will have the opportunity to try it out very - very soon. I look forward to seeing what folks think.

[Azazel]

Hopefully you have a trial with a small-enough-to-make-it-worthwhile client for the trial, because I am in no way am to pay up the usual cost of a retail box just to see if I like any game, these days.

[Rendakor]

Did you miss the part where he said Open Beta?

[Malakili]

Did you miss the part where he said Open Beta?

So, are we just going ahead and calling these free trials now then?  I mean, I know thats how lots of people treat them anyway, but you seem to be suggesting that an open beta is an excuse not to have a good free trial system also, or at least that its a substitute.

[Rendakor]

That's pretty much what they are, yea. Expecting a free trial other than that right around launch is silly.

[HaemishM]

Open betas might as well be called "Freeloaders Parade" or "Server Meltdown Trial Run." To the consumer, it's a free trial, to the creators, it's a full-on fire drill in the server room. There's certainly little chance any actual testing gets done other than how many monkeys does it take to make our servers assplode.

[Azazel]

Did you miss the part where he said Open Beta?

More like I don't care. I much prefer to trial a game on my own timetable, such as when I have a break from work etc. I'm not fucking 20 years old and willing to schedule around a short pre-launch open beta clusterfuck.

That's pretty much what they are, yea. Expecting a free trial other than that right around launch is silly.

Not really. I'm the potential paying customer. Don't offer a trial? I'm not going to give that much of a fuck, I just won't give your game a chance. Ergo, you lose my interest, my custom and my cash.

Oh, and most, if not all MMOs offer a free trial. I guess they're all silly. 

[Falconeer]

Oh, and most, if not all MMOs offer a free trial. I guess they're all silly. 

Not around launch. Which is what Rendakor said.

[Mrbloodworth]

I think you missed my point.  Which offers more for the player to do?  How are GA's numbers considering it has yet to start charging?  Do you think APB is going to fare better?

I think you assume global agenda isn't doing well. I was on last night, and this title (GA), its a bit hard to really know how many people are playing with the end user tools.

There were 30ish dome instances, each holding about 60 people, this does not account for those in a match, and I looked on the NA server list and found there were an average of 20 matches of each game play type going on (so, between 20 people per match on the largest match type, and now one for solo, with smatterings of 10, 4, and 6 for some game types), I did not look at the new solo stuff, or AvA (no agency anymore) or the new raid mission type. AFAIK only 20 million has been used to develop that title, and every one of those players above bought the box. There are three regions for servers now (NA, EU and pacific rim). Average wait time for me to be matched for any of the types I checked out, was about 60 seconds.