APB: Finally, I Can Be A PUNK!

[Ghambit]

I wish I could argue/discuss it, but as usual I cant.  All of the justification for the payment model is in an NDA-lockbox.
Just trust in knowing that this isnt SWG with RMT.  And there's no existing model for APB; it's a totally new type of "MMO," so a lot of this whole dev. is experimentation.  I wouldnt doubt if they fidget with the payment model a few more times anyways.

How are we defining "crap" btw?  We talkin crap as everything in the game?  Or we talkin crap that just looks/sounds like Packaged Ass.

[LK]

I have faith that this will work out for them.

[HaemishM]

I'm actually on board with the 20 hours a month gametime pay structure. I think it's a good compromise for charging by the minute. The way I tend to play MMO's, I'd probably subscribe for a few months, then settle into a 20-hour or less play pattern.

[EvilJohn]

Hi all,

Great to finally get this out there so we can start seeing reactions and feedback.

On one note with the pre-order items - I am/was very much against putting real functional items in the pre-order (better guns etc.) simply because we are an action game. The pre-order has benefits - early access so that you can get the RealTag and character names that you want is one. The cosmetic items are meant to be fun and give the pre-order folks a leg up in some customization, not give them a functional advantage against non-pre-order players.

I'll be lurking as usual - and will try to answer questions about the business model where I can.

[Ghambit]

Yah, how hard will you come down on folk who make RL money from their own in-game creations?
As I understand it currently, there's no way to convert playtime credits to real money right (inside the game)?  In a way, I guess this will place an arbitrary limit on values of things as there's only so much coin people will be willing to pay for something that has no value outside of the game and can't be legally traded in RL.  (assuming you disallow such things)

Why not just take it one step further and broker each real money transaction in-game, taking a chunk from each one, rather than charging a flat playtime currency.  Not only will this prevent too much "crap" from entering the game, but you'd make a lot more damned money also and so will your players.  If you cant do a direct buy type setup, then just set up the playtime currency as able to be bought AND sold.  This imo would give the whole game more "weight" and make the districts more worth fighting over.

[tmp]

How are we defining "crap" btw?  We talkin crap as everything in the game?  Or we talkin crap that just looks/sounds like Packaged Ass.

I meant the latter, since they said the requirement to pay for the stuff you make yourself was there to curb amount of the shitty things in the AH or wherever it ends.

[LK]

I see a lot of hypotheticals in this situation that I'm not entirely sure I'm comfortable with. It's GTA (game) meets Second Life (social / customization / economy). I've never been about paying money for buying looks though, but this game would create a scenario where I could make money myself to do it for other (gullible) people. More power to them for putting out a business model that sees people fall over themselves to make money through creation of unique content and them skimming a bit off the top of every transaction.

I'm really more interested in seeing if the game is fun and the world feels great to be in.

[Ghambit]

I think a viable goal is to create a game that would thrive from having money involved.  It IS crime-based after all.  (sans pimps and hoes)
Thing is, the way they're wording it, it's only viable as a playing-time currency and has no real value outside the game.  Basically, you'd be spending hours mixing a playlist just to earn a few bucks of game-time.
I think if you're going to go that route, might as well take it to the limit and allow people to sell back their credits to Realtime for real cash.  THAT's when things become interesting.

[LK]

THAT's when things become interesting.

The potential for lawsuits and drama is interesting, sure.

I think if you accrue enough RTW points you could probably offload them for real cash at market or below rates through behind-the-scenes channels. They will have logs, sure, but if you're smart about it I'm sure you could make a livable wage creating content for this game.

[Signe]

I'm with Haemish on this.  That's how I tend to play - hard for a while and then, if I like the game, I settle into a few hours every day or two.  I've already pre-ordered this and Righ probably will also.  I've been looking forward to this game since I made this thread!  Will there still be a chaos server?  I hope so.   

[Zzulo]

Hm. Not really sure if this game is for me. I don't believe that a monthly fee is entirely warranted, but perhaps I have not yet seen everything the game has to offer.

[Azazel]

I think I'll wait. It's the kind of thing I'd like to fuck around with on a 7-10-14 day trial at my own leisure, not get herded into a one-weekend-long beta on the devs' schedule that requires a 12gig download...

[UnSub]

Although I'm interested in this, I don't have time for serious PvP and my FPS skills have waned, so it will be a free trial for me before deciding to buy.

... may get the box if the reviews are good enough, given it comes with 50 hours rather than just 1 month.

[Ollie]

Personally I'm leaning towards the 20-hour model as well, especially since I realised the hours are only deducted once you actually enter the PvP zones. Bumbling around the social hub doesn't cost a thing beyond the initial box price, neither does personal customisation.

Most of my game time will be spent happily playing dress the dolly, so the cheapest available plan works for me.

[TripleDES]

In my opinion, 9 bux a month for an action game is too much. I get the idea that they can't undersell their own game due to the price of limited time options, but still, compared to the range of gameplay options (excluding all the customization stuff, which is free apparently, anyway) given by MMOs that are just slightly more expensive per month, APB does relatively seen not offer too much.

I guess my own disappointment with all of the announced stuff is that for that cost, I'd have expected a GTA-like large roaming zoneless gameworld. Which APB is not. For 9 bux a month, you get two and a half larger hosted Unreal maps.

I'm likely preordering this, 50 hours of action gameplay may get me to decide, whether I want to continue playing this. Hell, I haven't crossed the 24 hours mark in Just Cause 2 yet. And I've only 120 hours in TF2. This is probably not really making the case for the complaints above, but unlike single player action games, where I can cheat my way to unlocks, in APB you have to work for it in the end. If the costs for various shiny things and the mission payouts don't change from beta, you'll be playing a damn lot to get that stuff. They kept saying it's not a grind due to there being no character levels, but there's a grind in disguise (item unlocks and fucking expensive stuff).

Most of my game time will be spent happily playing dress the dolly, so the cheapest available plan works for me.

There's in-game currency needed to be spend to change your character. You need to get that somehow. I think clothing customization is free, but you can't clone the items, so if you want multiple designs, you need multiple copies of each item, which again cost in-game currency, which you have to get. Either by playing, needing game time to be paid if you're out of it, or do the built-in RMT.

[Ollie]

Well isn't that just poopy. There go my pink, frilly dreams of playing virtual dollhouse, all shattered to a million tiny pieces.

Thanks for clarifying. I'll just have to wait and see how the actual PvP rewards pan out, and how much PvP I have to do to fuel my customisation needs without engaging in marketplace shenanigans.
If Realtime Worlds decides to be stingy with in-game currency in the hopes of squeezing more money out of me, there will be words. Naughty ones, even.

[TripleDES]

You'll still be able to play dress-up at a minimal fee/effort, just don't expect it to be completely free. Doing things like changing haircut will cost some a little in-game currency, heavier bodymods are worth multiple mission payouts. Clothing prices seem to scale by perceived exclusivity and style, easily crossing into 2-3 mission payout territory. Unless you blow through the 50 action hours too fast, you might go scots-free a while. But since the current clothing choice seems to be beta-related intentionally meager and simple (or so it's claimed), I can't tell you if the ostensibly upcoming stuff's cheap or also expensive as shit (tending to latter, looking at other items). Plus, it is rumored that some clothing items are to be unlocked, requiring you to play away action hours, tho I never seen real evidence about this one.

[Ghambit]

There'd be no game if customization was somehow free or detached from the in-game currency.  The whole point is to force creative action to somehow be the coolest man/woman on the server.  To do this, you have to shoot people in the face... and then break out the Wacom.

[Mrbloodworth]

I'd have expected a GTA-like large roaming zoneless gameworld. Which APB is not.

I don't think you can make this call yet. We don't know if the instances are large or detailed enough to feel GTA-right. Instancing does not automatically mean tiny.

[LK]

I don't believe each zone is as massive as say, Vice City is, but look at gameplay video, I expect there to be more detail in the ground. Each city block might be acceptable for interesting methods of getting around and having firefights in.

I get the feeling that the size of each Action Zone will be equivalent to one of Crackdown I's districts.

[Ghambit]

To me it's not really the size that matters because for the most part the creative elements preclude all that.  BUT, I do expect the zones to be visceral enough to immerse me, not just glorified UT3 levels you fight in.

[kondratti]

To do this, you have to shoot people in the face... and then break out the Wacom.

I am kind of wondering if this is two disjoint sets though... (PvPers and content creators)

[Ollie]

I'm sure there is plenty of overlap, or at least enough to see the game's marketplace remain healthy with a steady stream of new items. The kind of PvPer drawn to persistent worlds and progression usually likes to look good while pummelling other people in the face. It's more the Counter Strike crowd who don't necessarily give a hoot about customisation – if my simplistic and groggy Monday-morning analysis is to be believed, that is.

Personally, I'm buying APB almost solely because of the stunning character creator, and view the PvP bits as a necessary evil. I fully expect 99 percent of the populace not to share my particular brain injury.

[UnSub]

Crafters get screwed by the RL cost to list items. It's not like the PvPers are being charged 1c a bullet in a direct way, but listing items costs.

[Musashi]

I have a sneaking suspicion that PvP people have a lot more in common with content creators than they're comfortable admitting.  Look at all the external content that gets created for Eve.  All those videos and memes are coming from somewhere.  It's fun to RP when it's called for.  It's only crosses the weird threshold when you're going somewhere in public dressed up like Sephiroth.

[Sky]

RL cost to customize? I've gone from very interested as a big fan of GTA to really no interest at all any more. Nice job, and thanks for saving me some money!

[LK]

RL cost to trade. None to personally customize.

[Sky]

Back to cautiously pessimistic, then.

[Ghambit]

Are they RMT to simply LIST something in the marketplace?  Or only if the purchase is made?

[UnSub]

Going back to that FAQ:

You can also use RTW Points to purchase items from other players on the Marketplace or sell your own items on the Marketplace to gain additional RTW Points.

Can I create items and sell them to other players?

Yes. However, selling your creations to other players incurs a small RTW Points fee. This process is called Manufacturing a customized item.

The following Manufacturing costs will be present at release:

Item Type (MFG cost in RTW points)

All vehicles (10)

Clothing - Major (head, torso, legs) (5)

Clothing - Minor (accessories, underwear, and footwear) (2)

Theme / Song (2)

Symbol (2)

Remember, there are NEVER any charges for all personal customization.

Why charge such low RTW Points value Manufacturing costs at all?

We believe the quality of the experience would suffer if the Marketplace were inundated with junk. The intent of the nominal Manufacturing charge is to prevent high volume of low quality items from crowding the Marketplace listings.

Additionally, we are investigating systems that would recognize reputable sellers and save on their Manufacturing costs.

Why is the amount I receive for a successful Marketplace sale different than the final auction price?

Similar to other auctions, there is commission on successful transactions.

However, there are no listing fees nor is there any charge for unsuccessful Marketplace auctions.

What about items I’ve already equipped or worn?

When you equip a weapon or wear a customized shirt, for example, that item becomes “worn”.

“Worn” items cannot be traded to other players without first paying a Refurbishment cost.

This Refurbishment cost is charged in the same currency as the original item.

For example, if you wear a customized shirt that you purchased from the Marketplace – the Refurbishment fee would be in RTW Points as that shirt would require a Manufacturing fee before it could be traded or sold.

However, if you purchased an N-Tec Assault Rifle from a Contact, equipped it, and then decided to trade it to another player – the Refurbishment fee would be in in-game currency because the item was originally purchased in the same fashion.

Simple rule: if the item was originally a customized item – such as clothing or a vehicle – Refurbishment would cost RTW Points; otherwise, if it was purchased from a Contact – Refurbishment would cost in-game currency.

The following Refurbishment costs will be present at release:

Item Type (REF cost in RTW points)

All vehicles (10)

Clothing - Major (head, torso, legs) (5)

Clothing - Minor (accessories, underwear, and footwear) (2)

Theme / Song (2)

Symbol (2)

If I'm reading it right: the RMT cost hits on the sale of the item, not the listing. So a good crafter might be able to earn enough RTW to not have to pay real money when selling items, but that really depends on how well the market works. Also, there is another money sink in 'refurbishing' items before you can wear them. Again, it depends on how the economy goes to determine how 'expensive' refurbishment actually is.

Given that RTW is selling in-game currency for RL $, they better keep a real close eye on that in-game economy.

EDIT: Also, the market takes a cut during auctions as well.

[Kageru]

Innovation in billing at least. The clever trick here, if I understand it correctly, is to convert money into points into game-time. This means everyone becomes used to using the in-game points and can be tempted to make impulse purchases without having to visit a website and drag out the credit card.

A comment from elsewhere, "Look and customization is sick. Gameplay feels like an out of date shooter. But with a group of friends it is fun.".

"How dynamic are the missions, are they original and un-repetitive ? They're pretty repetitive."

"That doesn't explain the huge lag when driving. I only had 26ms lag and still my car was retarded when I was driving."

APB versus BC2... Doesn't look like much of a challenge. Especially in the gameplay where she puts a full clip into a cop doing an arrest and has to reload and go to melee range to kill him. Also a great idea to give the cops AoE and long duration stun as a core mechanic. That's proven to be fun in previous shooters.  Of course with no Aussie servers it's pretty much a non starter anyway, high pings are bad.

I guess they really hope I'll care what my costume looks like or if I have racing stripes on my tank car. I suspect they're going to find that relatively few people care enough to pay a sub for the privilege.

.... are they *really* charging people to beta the game? 

[UnSub]

Of course with no Aussie servers it's pretty much a non starter anyway, high pings are bad.

Guess I won't be getting a box after all.

[LK]

That video is pretty bad to represent the game. I think we talked about it before.

[Kageru]

/shrug.

It's from their media presentation. If they can't make it look better than that for a demo they've got issues. The PAX one looks a little better (they have vehicle damage in) but still...

And it has a whole *2* maps / zones to play on? How could that ever get boring.

[Sheepherder]

Those two movies killed any interest and any future interest I may have in the game.  It reeks of fucking Driv3r.