Dark Days Are Coming - New Funcom Project

[Ard]

The game releases in two months and they've shown almost nothing to the public.  Far less than Tera and Guild Wars 2 have shown, one of which releases in a few weeks and the other with no release date.  I think that pretty much sums up everything that needs to be said, and I used to be a pretty big Funcom fanboy.  I am not throwing money at another one of their games at release (or possibly ever again) if this is how they're going to approach it.  

[Jherad]

The game releases in two months and they've shown almost nothing to the public.

That about sums it up for me - I don't play MMOs (now) that I don't feel very confident I'll enjoy from the outset for a couple of months. Doubly so for Funcom.

This usually means extensive beta testing with an open beta towards the end, and I'm very wary of 'beta weekends'. I'm certainly not about to pre-order for beta access. If it turns out great, I'm sure I'll hear about it down the line - of course then I'm not going to pay a big premium for the box.

Probably a sign that I'm getting too old to be considered 'target audience'.

[Shatter]

Everything Ive seen this game looks bad/unfinished...like a year away unfinished.   The fact they wont release more info or havent just makes it that much scarier

[Ingmar]

The game releases in two months and they've shown almost nothing to the public.  Far less than Tera and Guild Wars 2 have shown, one of which releases in a few weeks and the other with no release date.  I think that pretty much sums up everything that needs to be said, and I used to be a pretty big Funcom fanboy.  I am not throwing money at another one of their games at release (or possibly ever again) if this is how they're going to approach it.  

TERA is kind of a bogus comparison since that game has actually been out for what, a year? Just not here.

[blackwulf]

According to this interview: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fFn_Msxtys

90% of the beta testers plan to buy and play the game.

Some more kinda interesting stuff in that interview.

[Ard]

TERA is kind of a bogus comparison since that game has actually been out for what, a year? Just not here.

My point wasn't the game content so much as the PR content.  The secret world isn't even a blip on the public's radar, and it's not far from release.  Even if the game is somehow magically rock solid, it's still going to bomb silently in the dark.

[Ingmar]

According to this interview: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fFn_Msxtys

90% of the beta testers plan to buy and play the game.

Some more kinda interesting stuff in that interview.

I am suspicious at the idea that 90% of beta testers would even answer a survey, in any game.

[Ghambit]

TERA is kind of a bogus comparison since that game has actually been out for what, a year? Just not here.

My point wasn't the game content so much as the PR content.  The secret world isn't even a blip on the public's radar, and it's not far from release.  Even if the game is somehow magically rock solid, it's still going to bomb silently in the dark.

The fact that it's not on the radar is more appealing to me than otherwise. 

[blackwulf]

TERA is kind of a bogus comparison since that game has actually been out for what, a year? Just not here.

My point wasn't the game content so much as the PR content.  The secret world isn't even a blip on the public's radar, and it's not far from release.  Even if the game is somehow magically rock solid, it's still going to bomb silently in the dark.

The fact that it's not on the radar is more appealing to me than otherwise. 

Seconded.  GW2 and TERA look like more of the same old same old.  Granted, each adds something new to the genre, but neither has enough to grab me.  If I'm going to play another big budget fantasy MMO, I'm gonna wait and see what Zenimax has cooking.

[Kageru]

You are going to wait for a title that is probably years out for which not details are known from a company with no MMO heritage? .... alright.

Both of these games are trying some new things. I'm just not sure that Secret Worlds experiments are going to add much to gameplay, whereas GW2 is doing some interesting stuff (if it works).

[UnSub]

90% of the beta testers plan to buy and play the game.

The problem with that stat is:

1) no discounting - if the choice is yes or no, then it is easy to select 'yes' but it doesn't mean you'll carry through
2) no mention of sample size
3) data quality control could be an issue - how many times can someone answer yes?
4) how was it polled? If it was a forum thread, it will be full of yes people.

And all it takes is one patch before people start screaming that TSW is ruined and they aren't buying it.

[Nevermore]

Seconded.  GW2 and TERA look like more of the same old same old.  Granted, each adds something new to the genre, but neither has enough to grab me.  If I'm going to play another big budget fantasy MMO, I'm gonna wait and see what Zenimax has cooking.

I may not be as convinced that GW2 is going to be as awesome as a lot of people here are hoping, but I still can't see how anyone would think it's 'more of the same old same old'.

[blackwulf]

Seconded.  GW2 and TERA look like more of the same old same old.  Granted, each adds something new to the genre, but neither has enough to grab me.  If I'm going to play another big budget fantasy MMO, I'm gonna wait and see what Zenimax has cooking.

I may not be as convinced that GW2 is going to be as awesome as a lot of people here are hoping, but I still can't see how anyone would think it's 'more of the same old same old'.

Eh, just watching the videos.  It doesn't inspire me.  I really love the manifesto they have and agree with a lot of their points, but I'm not excited about WvWvW.  I think I'm ruined for MMO pvp because of DAOC.  Nothing comes close to RvR and the fun of running a small group around and feeding off the zerg or the bridge lurking stealthers. Also the realm abilities; all these new MMO's that feature pvp are so afraid of having anything from pvp impact pve, that they won't implement anything special for it like DAOC's realm abilities.  Ahh, I'm gettin way off topic, I guess what I'm getting at is that to me WvWvW looks like a sugar free version of RvR and it will only irritate me if I try it.

So, take out the WvWvW (what a pain in the ass to type) and you've got what?   Lineage 2 with world events instead of quest hubs?  I hear you still have to grind the world events in order to level.  I guess it could be fun the first time through.  I'm also not excited about the lack of character diversity, the locked in UI with only a few hot keys.  I dunno.  Despite their vocalizations to the contrary it seems like this is shaping up to be an MMO-lite.

To me, at least TSW is really stepping way outside the box and they are going back to some old school philosophies like when you are a noobie things should be hard and maybe even a little tedious, that way when you unlock some badass skills you really appreciate them.  The skill system is intriguing to me, and the setting is different, and they are not shilling this game all over the place as the second coming of your chosen savior.  They seem unfazed by the fact that they are not cloning WOW, and I'm very grateful.  How many potentially great MMOs sucked in the last 5 years because they had investors clamoring for them to be like WOW?  For those reasons, I'm gonna give them a try.

With regard to this, Kageru:

You are going to wait for a title that is probably years out for which not details are known from a company with no MMO heritage? .... alright.

I can wait.  We all have other MMO's we kinda like and play from time to time, right?  I mean if TSW doesn't keep me busy, I can always go check out new content on SWTOR.  Then there's the new Neverwinter MMO coming later this year, and Mech Warrior...  You're wrong about no MMO heritage, though.  Matt Firor and his core team are the guys who brought us DAOC, and left before Mark Jacobs and EA messed things up too badly.

[Draegan]

So many false perceptions in that post it's tough to separate things, especially TSW.  TSW isn't shilling the game all over the place because they're out of money most likely.  I won't touch the rest.

[Ragnoros]

I may not be as convinced that GW2 is going to be as awesome as a lot of people here are hoping, but I still can't see how anyone would think it's 'more of the same old same old'.

It's still just diku. Pick class, kill mobs, level up, repeat. Yes the artwork is amazing, and the graphics, and the classes and skills are super well done, and meaningful pvp , and, and, and... But still just a select a thing, press 1231, diku.

Mind you if you are in the mood for a REALLY well done diku, it will hopefully be Raptor Jesus. But if you are not, then, more of the same old.

[tmp]

But still just a select a thing, press 1231, diku.

Mechanically it doesn't appear TSW is any different than that, though. Ok, maybe it's more of a 1111112 since they put more focus on rogue points "resource building" but it's not much of a change.

[Kageru]

It's still just diku. Pick class, kill mobs, level up, repeat. Yes the artwork is amazing, and the graphics, and the classes and skills are super well done, and meaningful pvp , and, and, and... But still just a select a thing, press 1231, diku.

Mind you if you are in the mood for a REALLY well done diku, it will hopefully be Raptor Jesus. But if you are not, then, more of the same old.

Indeed.. It involves pressing buttons repeatedly and we've seen that before.

Though in another way it's funny how your description is starting to match all the first person shooters. Kill 100 players, level up, unlock new weapon, repeat.

[Draegan]

I may not be as convinced that GW2 is going to be as awesome as a lot of people here are hoping, but I still can't see how anyone would think it's 'more of the same old same old'.

It's still just diku. Pick class, kill mobs, level up, repeat. Yes the artwork is amazing, and the graphics, and the classes and skills are super well done, and meaningful pvp , and, and, and... But still just a select a thing, press 1231, diku.

Mind you if you are in the mood for a REALLY well done diku, it will hopefully be Raptor Jesus. But if you are not, then, more of the same old.

GW2 is not a 1231 repeat diku combat though.  Skills are more reactionary.  For example, if you play a Ranger with a greatsword, you have 5 abilities due to your weapon:

1: Autoattack
2: Charge
3: Block/Counterattack
4: Bleed
5: Stun

All on various cooldowns.

The thing with combat is that, yes it's tab targeting, but you don't need to target.  You'll always hit what is in front of you.  Many class/weapon combinations are like this.  There is no DPS rotation like a Rift or WOW.

[Soukyan]

I may not be as convinced that GW2 is going to be as awesome as a lot of people here are hoping, but I still can't see how anyone would think it's 'more of the same old same old'.

It's still just diku. Pick class, kill mobs, level up, repeat. Yes the artwork is amazing, and the graphics, and the classes and skills are super well done, and meaningful pvp , and, and, and... But still just a select a thing, press 1231, diku.

Mind you if you are in the mood for a REALLY well done diku, it will hopefully be Raptor Jesus. But if you are not, then, more of the same old.

By that definition, this forum is Diku. By that definition, this forum is Diku. By that definition, this forum is Diku. Look in the hole! There might be a snake!

[Nevermore]

I may not be as convinced that GW2 is going to be as awesome as a lot of people here are hoping, but I still can't see how anyone would think it's 'more of the same old same old'.

Eh, just watching the videos.  It doesn't inspire me.  I really love the manifesto they have and agree with a lot of their points, but I'm not excited about WvWvW.  I think I'm ruined for MMO pvp because of DAOC.  Nothing comes close to RvR and the fun of running a small group around and feeding off the zerg or the bridge lurking stealthers. Also the realm abilities; all these new MMO's that feature pvp are so afraid of having anything from pvp impact pve, that they won't implement anything special for it like DAOC's realm abilities.  Ahh, I'm gettin way off topic, I guess what I'm getting at is that to me WvWvW looks like a sugar free version of RvR and it will only irritate me if I try it.

Except for the stealth 'sub game' WvW looks pretty much exactly like RvR, or at least as close as you'll ever see again most likely.  Zergs take/defend keeps, small groups capture/defend smaller objectives, the map looks to have chokepoints and ambush spots, you have siege, castles with doors to beat down, keep lords to kill.  Seriously, what more do you want?  DAoC's realm abilities were a bad idea, frankly.  They were just a pvp diku grind ironically, with the haves getting stronger and the have-nots just cannon fodder.  GW1 went out of it's way to put people on equal footing in pvp, which is a good thing in my opinion.  If grinding is what turns you on, GW1 had pvp titles and fluff abilities you could grind for so I'd be surprised if GW2 didn't as well.  DAoC RvR was fun but there's some serious rose colored glasses being worn by some people (not just the person I'm replying to).

Frankly, it isn't the pvp that has me hesitant about GW2.  That game looks like it has every kind of pvp one could want, outside of maybe duels.  It's the pve and cash shop that gives me pause.  To say GW2 is uninspiring because of the pvp is just a headscratcher. 

[Shatter]

PvP in GW2 is exactly why I want to play.  For a change a game will launch with what looks like a pretty solid world pvp system that anyone can join in at starting at level 1.  The bonus is 3 sides going at it vs the typical 2 which adds a nice element.  Im tired of games saying they have PvP and its just battlegrounds.  Add in the fact GW2 has no sub which again...bonus.  Im guessing for a PvPer that GW2 will offer more / better / fun PvP then we've seen in the past 7 years of MMO game launches.  Their Dev's seem to be making PvP more of a priority in their game then most MMO's do which is usually throwing in 3 battlegrounds and add the letters P V P to the box. 

[Ragnoros]

GW2 is not a 1231 repeat diku combat though.  Skills are more reactionary.  For example, if you play a Ranger with a greatsword, you have 5 abilities due to your weapon:

1: Autoattack
2: Charge
3: Block/Counterattack
4: Bleed
5: Stun

All on various cooldowns.

The thing with combat is that, yes it's tab targeting, but you don't need to target.  You'll always hit what is in front of you.  Many class/weapon combinations are like this.  There is no DPS rotation like a Rift or WOW.

Glad I could lead to some discussion, even if just telling me how wrong I am. I was unaware of the non-targeted nature of attacks in GW2, that is somewhat interesting if the case, however I am guessing it only holds for melee classes, unless archers are playing a Third Person Shooter now.

However, in regards your argument that GW2 is not plain old diku combat, congratulations on describing a WoW warrior exactly in your example of how non-traditional a GW2 Ranger is.

1. Autoattack - Check, and basically the biggest diku staple of all time.
2: Charge - Check, same name even, also Intercept and Intervene.
3: Block/Counterattack -Take your pick from Overpower/Revenge/Shieldblock/Shieldwall
4: Bleed = Rend/Deep Wounds
5: Stun = Throw Down/Concussive Blow
All on various cooldowns.

I will grant you that the design of Guildwars is more elegant in that you don't have fucking 50 buttons to manage at any given time. I always hated that about WoW, and it can be seen in the fact a warrior has three buttons just for charge (plus more like Heroic Leap, depending on spec). However the removal of Mortal Strike, Heroic Strike and Slam from the Warrior damage rotation does not make GW2 a special snowflake.

Anyway, if I am at the point of shitting on the thread let me know and I will gladly bow out. I am not meaning to argue that GW2 is or will be a bad game, just that as Nevermore said, it is nothing new, simply refined.

[Draegan]

You just don't seem to grasp the system in GW2.  Yes if you boil it down, it's just pressing buttons and you're doing damage.  But it's no where near having "rotations" like WOW or RIFT.  For example, the Bleed has a 20? or so second cooldown.  

There are more buttons you can be pushing with 3 utility skills, a heal and an elite.  Not counting your pet has an ability that you can fire off.  In any case, everything is reactionary.  You simply don't stand behind a mob and go 1, 2, 4, 1 ,2, 5 --> wait for buff --> 4, 3 , 1 , 1 etc.

Your list of warrior abilities matched to my list is just a bit hamfisted.  You are trying to fit your definition into a different system.  Like you said, the design is more elegant and you don't have 50 buttons.  When playing a Warrior, you're firing off additional abilities as the come off cooldown or become available due to the rage mechanic.  It's a completely different feel to combat.

In GW2 you are reading and reacting to what is going on around you.  In WOW, not so much unless it's PVP.

Also, it somewhat holds to archers, however you can fire off in a single direction without a target.  You can target someone and shoot them too, so you don't have to FPS aim.  However if there is an NPC/PC that you can attack in between you and your target, you will in that NPC/PC instead.

The system is unique to Guild Wars 2.  This could be semantics, but just to disregard the system to just "same ole same ole DIKU combat" is just stupid.

edit:
Wrong thread, so I'll stop unless you want to pick it back up in the GW2 thread.  In any case, the combat in TSW is pure DIKU WOW-Rogue combo point system combat without autoattack.

[Zetor]

Watch this vid if you want to see a decent appraisal of GW2 combat.

tl;dw:
- there is no autoattack; the 'basic attack' (skill 1 for each weapon) actually does more than just do damage, and sometimes is a combo of 2-3 skills (it turns into the next skill after use).
- you can designate one ability (attack or utility skill, even heal) to autocast every time it's available... COH has this too, and it's usually not a good idea to use this on your no-cooldown basic attack (if using this functionality at all). The character controlled by the dev actually dies after he puts his self-heal on autocast
- you can just hit buttons as they light up, but you'll be missing out on combos and control abilities etc, along with dodging attacks and supporting your team as well as possible
- no tank/healer/dps trinity, though arguably damage/support/control isn't THAT different

GW1 was the anti-diku in many ways, and while GW2 does pick up a fair bit of diku-itis (high level cap, gear, etc) I wouldn't call it "eq 3.0" or anything.

e: and yeah, we should move this to the GW2 thread

[blackwulf]

Except for the stealth 'sub game' WvW looks pretty much exactly like RvR, or at least as close as you'll ever see again most likely.  Zergs take/defend keeps, small groups capture/defend smaller objectives, the map looks to have chokepoints and ambush spots, you have siege, castles with doors to beat down, keep lords to kill.  Seriously, what more do you want?  DAoC's realm abilities were a bad idea, frankly.  They were just a pvp diku grind ironically, with the haves getting stronger and the have-nots just cannon fodder.  GW1 went out of it's way to put people on equal footing in pvp, which is a good thing in my opinion.  If grinding is what turns you on, GW1 had pvp titles and fluff abilities you could grind for so I'd be surprised if GW2 didn't as well.  DAoC RvR was fun but there's some serious rose colored glasses being worn by some people (not just the person I'm replying to).

Frankly, it isn't the pvp that has me hesitant about GW2.  That game looks like it has every kind of pvp one could want, outside of maybe duels.  It's the pve and cash shop that gives me pause.  To say GW2 is uninspiring because of the pvp is just a headscratcher. 

I disagree about the realm ranks being bad for the RvR.  I really enjoyed being able to continually improve my character through PVP.  And not some fake pvp gear improvement.  It was real, and I could use those abilities anywhere.  I enjoyed beating PVE content meant for full groups with just a partner or two because we had high realm ranks and actual useful abilities.

Yeah, I know it doesn't mesh with the whole "everyone should always be equal in pvp" philosophy.  I don't agree with that.  I like RPGs because they are about improving your character through effort or time.  In DAOC if you were new to rvr, you ran with stronger people or a zerg until you could hold your own.  Part of the fun for me is finally getting strong enough to give that Saracen stealther some payback for what he did to me when I was a low RR noob.

Now, I'm sorry for this diversion about GW2.  I hope I didn't start it, but if I did, it was mainly because I was trying to express why I was planning to buy TSW before GW2.  The GW2 3 server battle thing just seems artificial to me, and I'm just afraid it WILL be a bit like DAOC, but not nearly enough, and I'll just be frustrated.  That's just my feeling - obviously I could be wrong, and if I get some reports from people I actually know who like the game, I might end up giving it a try.

Back to the thread topic:  So many games are working so hard to appeal to masses, that they become something like what a Taco Bell (WOW) is when compared to that really good taco cart on the corner of 5th and 47th (DAOC) - I like how TSW isn't trying to be a Taco Bell - they are are at least trying to keep that family owned restaurant feel.  Maybe I'm all wet, and I'm gonna find that my perceptions are way off.  We'll see!

[Kageru]

On reflection my main feeling for the difference between TSW and GW2 is the question of content. GW2 is trying to take a decent step with breaking down quest grinding and making multi-player dynamic events the foundation of it. That's an approach that has the potential to take the game off the rails, allows good re-use of content and all that content is inherently co-operative. And there'll be lots of space to iterate on it and add new content. Likewise the PvP system seems reasonably innovative and well thought out, and once again inherently co-operative and community building.

The secret world seems to rely on fairly traditional instances and the idea of "secret puzzles" which I'm a lot more dubious about. They end up being a speed run or a visit to the cheat site respectively, and they tend to need a lot of hand crafted content with repetition quickly becoming tedious through lack of variation. When they claim the game is strongly story driven I get suspicious. Though of course the details remain a mystery themselves.

Shame though, adore the secret world concept.

[HaemishM]

I don't know that I would say that the puzzle quests are anything like "SECRET PUZZLES." Hell, they use most of the hand-holding techniques with map markers and changing cursor icons that other MMOG's do. Maybe it gets more secret/spoilery in the later instances, but in the first instance, it's mostly the same type of questing and environment interaction you've come to expect in MMOG's, only with cutscenes like the Tortoga bits of Age of Conan.

[blackwulf]

One of the big complaint's I've heard from people who've played the game is that the animations are boring/bad.  This might be of interest to you all (form the official forums):

Making animations for over 500 abilities is quite the task, therefore we have to use some placeholder animations on some of the abilities when showing a game still in production. We are working on it, and it will be amazing 

[tmp]

That is good to hear (if the miracle patch indeed happens again)  At the moment it just looks so bad it pretty much kills the interest i might have in the game otherwise.

[HaemishM]

One of the big complaint's I've heard from people who've played the game is that the animations are boring/bad.  This might be of interest to you all (form the official forums):

Making animations for over 500 abilities is quite the task, therefore we have to use some placeholder animations on some of the abilities when showing a game still in production. We are working on it, and it will be amazing 

Game releases in what, 2 months? Good luck with that, because the combat animations are REALLY bad.

[Draegan]

I don't believe it.  But if AOC had a miracle patch, I have to give them them a pass.. for now!

Also link the thread.  I'm curious to read it.

[blackwulf]

I don't believe it.  But if AOC had a miracle patch, I have to give them them a pass.. for now!

Also link the thread.  I'm curious to read it.

Here you go: http://www.darkdemonscrygaia.com/showthread.php?t=26959

[Valmorian]

I got to play Secret World at PAX East.  God DAMN is that game boring.  It's the same old tab target and press number key combat, quests are the standard collect X whatevers.. ugh.. 

I guess if you still like the WoW gameplay and want a new skin on it.. knock yourself out.

[Mrbloodworth]

Watch this vid

That looked fun. I'm just afraid that things like, level disparity between friends, and other MMO standards are still present. I think I burned out with SWTOR.

[Modern Angel]

90% of the beta testers plan to buy and play the game.

I missed this but it bears stressing: any time you EVER see Erling talk about anything, assume he's lying. He's pathological when it comes to pre-release interviews.