HellGate: London Subscription Information

[Trippy]

The other thing is that I don't mind buying expacks to pay for extra content. God only knows how many games' expacks I have sitting in the shelf behind me. I take issue with the way these guys are presenting the extra content, and the fact that they've decided to pull a "Legacy of Ykesha" to tie basic upgrade functionality to paying an ongoing fee. $10 a month. How much do expacks generally cost for games in the US? $20? $30? (I don't live there, so I don't know). I know new retail games run $40-50. So unless you're getting a full expnasion pack's worth of new content every couple of months, I'm not seeing the value.

As I said, It's not personal (I've never had much excitement for this title), but I think it's simply a greed-based decision on the back of WoW's success, and if the business model works for this game it sets a very bad precedent for PC games and gamers.

The problem is that GW has shown that the "free-to-play and then make money off expansion packs" business model is difficult. Thanks to EQ people expect quite a bit of content in an expansion pack and that's expensive to do, made even tougher when the game is free-to-play. Hence Flagship is going the "let's gimp the free-to-play version as much as possible so everybody will want to subscribe and then we can skimp as much as we want on the extra subscriber content" route.

Personally I think they should just go subscription-only for online-play but I think their Diablo free-to-play heritage is making them to do this half-assed split-model.

[MrHat]

If the rings make the "ping" sound when they drop, count me in.

I wish it wasn't that simple, but for me, it is!

[Typhon]

[..]and if the business model works for this game it sets a very bad precedent for PC games and gamers.

lol, wake the fuck up.  The old way of making and distribution PC games is dead.  Consoles + MMOs and their success (especially WoW) have essentially killed that business model.  Game makers are desperately trying to find a middle ground between going out of business, going completely console and going MMO.  It's going to take a couple different tries to get to something that PC game players will tolerate.  I see Hellgate's business model as a different take, an evolution from the Diablo model.  If you dislike it that much, don't buy it.

I, on the other hand, am interested in the game, I hope the single player experience gives me as much fun/longevity as Diablo 2.  Because I liked Diablo 2.  If it doesn't, I'll move on to something else.  If I like, I'll try to talk my friends into buy it, and we'll try it online.  If we like it alot, we'll talk about going with subs.  It's just that simple.

If I'm "sucking developer cock" because I think the folks who are spazing out about the online version having elements that are pay-to-play are being foolish... then you have a fucked up version of what sucking cock is.  I've got to say, calling me Typhus and cock sucker just because I disagreed with you doesn't make me want to read anything else that you type.  I do find it ironic that you just gave Schild shit in another thread, accusing him of essentially the same thing.

[Azazel]

If I'm "sucking developer cock" because I think the folks who are spazing out about the online version having elements that are pay-to-play are being foolish... then you have a fucked up version of what sucking cock is.  I've got to say, calling me Typhus and cock sucker just because I disagreed with you doesn't make me want to read anything else that you type.  I do find it ironic that you just gave Schild shit in another thread, accusing him of essentially the same thing.

The "Typhus" thing was a typo/mistype, made in haste. I apologise for that - it's how I read/remembered your handle. (Aside from the disease, it's the name of a Special Character used by one of my Warhammer 40k armies, hence my internal confusion).



I wrote that you're sucking dev cock because I found your posts to be both overly-apologetic and over-enthusiastic about every aspect of the model and game itself. If you like, I'll take that back also - I apologise for saying that you suck dev cock. Which is still quite different to calling you a "cocksucker" in more general terms, anyway.

I'll refer to your posts defending the game seeming a little too much like the typical rabid fanboi fare for unreleased product and apologist for every element of the upcoming business model/pricing scheme. Usually most any of us here even when we mostly-like something, do admit that some elements of a game/structure/whatever aren't perfect, yet your post was uncompromisingly positive in every aspect.

As for PC games, I'm not interested in everything or even a large number of titles I buy being of a recurring-charge business model, and I can't imagine a lot of other people would either. I'm quite happy with the "buy quality product, play it, buy some more content 6 months down the track once or twice" that's in place now. If a lot more titles come out across all platforms, then that's fine by me as well, as long as the PC version feels like a proper game and not a shabby console port (ie: WH40k Fire Warrior).

[Ragnoros]

Snip

OK then, your last couple posts made valid arguments and were both cordial and well thought out. I hereby retract any ill will sent forth towards you.


Also the "Ping".
Yes I'm drunk. What of it.

[eldaec]

Even at $10 per month, isn't this cheaper and shinier PvE Planetside, only with actual updates.

I don't know if I'll bother, and Planetside has shown that MMOFPS isn't necessarily as sticky as devs would like, but I'm not sure where all the angst comes from?

[Yoshimaru]

[Typhon]

I agree, I twisted your words, you didn't directly call me a cock-sucker... sure made that sentence flow more smoothly though.

I'll refer to your posts defending the game seeming a little too much like the typical rabid fanboi fare for unreleased product

I see the way the paladin jumps in the air and his sword "hits" the demons and it looks... not good.  There models seem too stiff. 

If that was too mild how bout this - the combat mechanic currently looks like ass.  If it's like this when it launches, I won't play regardless of what their business model is... because it looks like ass.  I was being mild because, as you say, the game hasn't launched yet.

and apologist for every element of the upcoming business model/pricing scheme. Usually most any of us here even when we mostly-like something, do admit that some elements of a game/structure/whatever aren't perfect, yet your post was uncompromisingly positive in every aspect.

I THINK that the business model, if done correct (note: BIG if) seems like it's mostly positive.  If they don't put enough into the offline game they will fuck themselves via word of mouth and no one will have to worry about this type of model ever again.  Until that day comes, I think it's a decent new twist on the tired, and failing PC game development and sales business.  ... plus Bill's cock just taste good!  (dammit! did I type that last part out loud?!)

[El Gallo]

Just reading this thread has inspired me to dust off my pindlebot for my annual return to D2 for a month or so.

[MisterNoisy]

• 24/7 support - if the game is buggy, you won't be playing, let alone need support
• no server queues - if the game isn't fun offline, why would you go online?  if the game isn't fun in a group, why would you go online?  if the game isn't popular, why would there be queues?
• extra characters - there are only three character "types" (with some subtypes within those), I believe you get three slots to start.  If you want more slots you must really like this game so maybe you should think about paying a subscription to support additional development of this game, eh?
• a larger inventory - choices, choices, it's all about choices.  if the game isn't so exciting to you that you play enough to fill out the inventory this shouldn't be a problem
• access to additional game modes - at launch this means one thing: mutliplayer.  This game wasn't built for multiplayer, it was tacked on.  Therefore, Hellgate mutliplayer is almost certainly going to be a diversion, not something that sets the online PvP world aflame.
• and more - access to additional content: items, monsters, eventually zones and char classes.  I read this as "immediate access to stuff that we'll be putting into an expansion pack".
  

Late to the party, but this stood out - is it just me, or does a lot of this list (limited space/character slots, limited game modes, lack of support, limited multiplayer/server access) sound an awful lot like the types of restrictions you get on the demo versions of games?

[Sky]

lol, wake the fuck up.  The old way of making and distribution PC games is dead.  Consoles + MMOs and their success (especially WoW) have essentially killed that business model.  Game makers are desperately trying to find a middle ground between going out of business, going completely console and going MMO. 

It's greed. PC gaming has always been niche, has always been elitist, will never have the market of a cheap (or not-so-cheap console...you want to see a market that's going to get squeezed too much, it's the 'cheap' consoles costing $400-600 and games $60/ea, heh) console. The only thing that's changing is the fact that we don't need retailers anymore.

PC games are dying, lol. That's always a good one.

[WindupAtheist]

I can't wait until every game out there has a server slapped on to store player data so the developer can stick his hand out for some of that sweet, sweet subscription revenue.

[Ironwood]

Hell, surely that's just a natural evolution Intelligent Design of Digital Distribution tho, eh ?  After all, if you've got the hardware to throw the game out in the first place....

[Typhon]

PC games are dying, lol. That's always a good one.

Have you been to a EB Games or whatever store in the last 6 months?  Do you like the chioce of PC games that aren't MMO?  I have and I don't.  Maybe it's me that's changing.

[Murgos]

Of the last 5 games I have purchased, 4 were PC games.  Maybe that's because the next-gen consoles just don't have a lot of good releases right now or maybe it's because PC's still have the better quality games of the type I like to play?

[Azazel]

Though the consoles get more releases these days, PC games still have quite a respectable amount of shelf space at the four EB's in my area, as well as the four indy retailers. Certainly they have a ton more shelf space than I've seen devoted to all of Nintendo's platforms combined, you know, ever.

Come to think of it, PC games account for more shelf space than 360 and PS3 titles combined in my local shops, and while the latter two platforms' space will only increase over time, it'll be the X-Bpx and PS2 titles that shrink to make space.

Console games seem to have a higher percentage of churned-out shovelware crap as well.

[schild]

In upper/middle class white areas, there are more PC games on shelves than in the ghetto. Certain EBStops are designated as PC stores as well. Yes, EBStop is of the impression that ghetto folk can't afford good PCs. In my experience working in the ghetto, they're absolutely right. As for the amount of crap shovelware, it's about equal, you just don't see it because you don't shop at Target or Walmart for your games and EBStop only stocks the Console shovelware since it sells better than your 4x PC Space Sims. Remember, Cars was the number 2 selling console game of last year.

[Azazel]

Erm, we don't really have ghettos as you know them here.

I live in a working-class area, one of the EBs is in a pretty rough/seedy area of town (though it's in a shopping centre), one indy store in a slightly less rough area (though it's one of those doorways leading to upstairs places). Neither area would be a great place to hang out in at night. An EB and an indy store are in a huge mall, and two more EBs and 3 of the indy stores are in the inner-city, central business district. Though here, inner-city living means expensive studio apartments instead of tenements or low-end accomodation.

We're talking working-class, high unemployment, drugs sold on the streets etc, lots of recent immigrants, (as my area is one of the two main areas where the government has traditionally dumped the new arrivals and refugees since postwar), but it's still not the same as ghettos as you know them as there's a mix of professionals working all over the place. It's a far cry from the richer Whitetown or Jewtown areas though.

Not sure abotu Target's selection of PC games, but K-Mart and Big W both have reasonable selections of PC stuff. Even though I dont shop for my games there, I do check them out. No Wal-Mart in this country though  :-D.

[Nija]

fwiw, the Targets here have more PC shelf space than any single console.

Let's say:

PC: 5
PS2: 4
Wii: 3
DS/GC: 4
Xbox: 2
360: 4
ps3: 3

I don't even go in EBs anymore. I'm strictly online only, or 'wild hair' while I'm at Frys.

[Merusk]

The EB games here has a half-shelf in the middle of the floor that has "New" PC games on one side, and used on the opposite side.  The rest of the store is console gaming.   I put 'new' in quotes because a good chunk of space was the Diablo2 chest which I hardly qualify as new and a few copies of some cancelled MMO when I was last there. (I think it was AC2) 

Target carries as much PC software as they do Console, but half the PC shelf-space is for TurboTax, Quicken, and educational games.  Wal*Mart uses a half-shelf with the same setup as Target vs the standard Console display boxes.   Toys-R-Us, I don't recall the PC gaming section, but most of their stuff around  here is Nintendo-related.  Best Buy uses 3, 3/4 display shelves for PC stuff. Games on one side, the rest of the PC stuff on the other, so they've got the biggest selection, and it's about equal to the console displays.  Only problem is one entire rack is dedicated to MMOs.

[Strazos]

My GameStop uses 1 2-sided floor rack for PC; one side has the pretty new stuff, the other side is the older software mixed with shovelware crap.

Yeah, it's small; we have about the same amount of space of PS3 and Wii combined.

[Miasma]

Best Buy seems to have a pretty large selection of PC games, an aisle's worth at least.  I figure EB games only stocks PC games which are sure-thing hits because they make most of their money on used console games so they have no reason to push PC titles.

[Typhon]

The EB games here has a half-shelf in the middle of the floor that has "New" PC games on one side, and used on the opposite side.  The rest of the store is console gaming.   I put 'new' in quotes because a good chunk of space was the Diablo2 chest which I hardly qualify as new and a few copies of some cancelled MMO when I was last there. (I think it was AC2) 

This is my experience, both in malls, and in stripmalls.  Area is predominately white, upper/middle class (Cherry Hill, NJ).  PC Games area is a tiny island in a great big sea of console.

[Strazos]

No shit, Cherry Hill? Why Hello Thar, from the Voorhees store.


But yeah, Typhon is spot on; the type of are which you would think would produce the kind of people who'd have a least a few folks into PC gaming. Instead, it's all PS2/DS/360.

Also, lots of Spoiled-As-Fuck children, but that's beside the point.

[Typhon]

Howdy Vorhees!  Your area is nicer then mine now, Cherry Hill is a traffic-bloated nightmare.

[Megrim]

Azazel, don't you live in Melbourne or something? What the hell...

[Azazel]

Yes. Yes I do. What would you like to know?

[Megrim]

I'm trying to figure out where in Melb you live, going by your last post.

[Azazel]

I live in West Footscray/Maidstone. Nearish West.

It's about in the middle of Sunshine (major seedy shithole w/EB, Big W, Target), Footscray (also a shithole w/Dungeon Crawl, K-Mart) and Highpoint (nice enough area, actually w/EB, JB x2, Myer, Target, Big W, TRU). 10 minutes East/West/North and I'm in one of those 3 places, so plenty of places to buy and check out games. Then there's the CBD 1/2 hour or so away with at least 7 more places to buy stuff..

[Megrim]

Oh yea, Sunshine. Never been there myself but i've been told that the name does not reflect the nature.

[Azazel]

You can probably safely skip visiting there.

[MrHat]

So, will HG:L have an online distribution option?

[Sky]

Have you been to a EB Games or whatever store in the last 6 months?  Do you like the chioce of PC games that aren't MMO?  I have and I don't.  Maybe it's me that's changing.

You buy PC games at an EB store? Lolinternet. That's what they invented UPS for. As I've said, PC gamers all have PCs. Most have internet. Most internets have online stores. I can't believe they still stock PC games at all. Yeah, I was at EB a couple weeks ago to return a game I ordered online and pick up a new one in exchange. So it's good for that. And shitting on developers by buying used games. ;)

[schild]

A shitload of people, believe it or not, hate shopping online. Even those of us with Amazon Prime.

[LK]

Preferred shopping methods:
1. Online, Download after purchase
2. Offline, Go to the Store
3. Online, Shipped

Those are also how fast I can get the product to my hands after deciding I want something.