HellGate: London Subscription Information

[Nija]

What they should do is let you subscribe for a month, download all the updates and shit, then let you cancel the sub. That way you could buy like 2 months worth a year and keep up to date. Or if something super cool just came out and you want to check it out, pay your $10, grab it, be done with it.

There are a few types of people when it comes to obsessive/compulsive games like Hellgate and Diablo. 1) casuals. 2) addicts. 3) the in-between guys.

If you let the in-between guy throw you $40/year (buying a sub every 3 months to batch-download the updates they're missing out on) and you let the casuals throw you $20/year (once every 6 months) - you might end up getting more money than making everyone pay the addict price ($120/year) and scaring them away.

[schild]

No, not really. You just have to make it worth subscribing. The hardcores will make everyone else feel like an asshole anyway. They're gonna make money off the box alone, so there's no incentives to letting casuals get anything out of the affair. I'm going to shine my armor with their tears.

[Furiously]

Has anyone ever looked at what percentage of X-box 360 players have a Live account?

I'm going to guess there is a large portion of the game playing audience that says, "I bought the box, why should I pay $10.00 a month."

And they will bitch about those stupid people who pay. Afterall, B-Net was free111!!!11!

[Hoax]

This pricing model is fine, you fucking people do protestith too much me thinks.

If you dont pay, you get everything but hardcore, extra bank and character slots, if you like the game enough to NEED the extra stuff, then stfu and pay $10/month.  The only shady thing is the whole queues bit, they need to take that out of the PR speak and hide it somewhere deep on their website.

This is a nice new pricing scheme that I think will work well if people can stop shoving sand into their vagina's w/ a fucking tonka truck just for the sake of wanting something to cry about.

[Furiously]

No the shady bit is your appearance changes with the pay version. (Not that I care one way or another.)

[Nija]

No, I'm talking about this stuff.

Elite

    * Regular content updates, small ones every month and large ones every three months. (ie. new quests, dungeons, weapons, monsters, etc. that can only be accessed by elite players.)

Free Play

     * Can play with elite players in all areas of the game that come with the shipped game but not in new areas added post launch.

http://hellgateguru.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3873

[Hoax]

Ahhh ok that's just total fucking bullshit then, basically this is the equivalent of the no HD 360, you can pay less but you would have to be fucking stupid.

They were on the right path, but they got way too greedy.  Stupid fuckers.  But I'll give them money if I can socket magical powers into a magical shotgun and blow the bejesus out of demons, for the promise of rare color coded shiney goodies.

[Typhon]

But I'll give them money if I can socket magical powers into a magical shotgun and blow the bejesus out of demons, for the promise of rare color coded shiney goodies.

AMEN BROTHER!

For all the pissing about the elite pricing I'm curious - how many people who don't pay for the elite membership are going to hang around more then two months anyway?

[Murgos]

...shoving sand into their vagina's w/ a fucking tonka truck..

I think I saw that one.

[Lantyssa]

I got a laugh: Today's Penny Arcade

[Strazos]

Any idea of how many accounts you can have with your cd-key? If you can have many, then its solved for the non-paying users.

Sounds like a bunch of kids crying because they can't do what they want for free.


Also, I for one was always sort of surprised that b-net was free once Blizzard moved to client-based services, running the games on their own servers.

[Megrim]

Well, for one, i would imagine it is a really, really good way of remaining popular and having great word of mouth.

[Azazel]

Do they expect you to buy a retail box for this?

Is the game online-only?


If the answer to both of those questions is Yes, then they can go fuck themselves and stuff their queues and character slots and added (read: held-back) content up their arses.

[Ragnoros]

Do they expect you to buy a retail box for this?

Is the game online-only?


If the answer to both of those questions is Yes, then they can go fuck themselves and stuff their queues and character slots and added (read: held-back) content up their arses.

Yes

No

Sounds like they are pulling a RuneScape to me. Mind you the Box won't be free but basic online will be. Want more? $10 please.

Also IMHO people should stop bitching about the fee. Yeah you payed $50 to get the game but something has to cover development costs, and servers cost money to buy and keep running. Also assuming they deliver on their promise of regular updates I'm quite happy. Hell as one poster said if Bliz had done the same for Diablo2 I would have been all over it.

[WindupAtheist]

I played the shit out of Diablo 2, but I did it all offline.  All online play ever added was lag and the company of total mouthbreathing dumbfucks.  They can cram this "Let's make everything a pseudo-MMO so we can charge a subscription fee!" strategy up their ass.

[squirrel]

I played the shit out of Diablo 2, but I did it all offline.  All online play ever added was lag and the company of total mouthbreathing dumbfucks.  They can cram this "Let's make everything a pseudo-MMO so we can charge a subscription fee!" strategy up their ass.

A big part of me agrees with this. Yes I know dev time costs money. Yes I know infrastructure costs money. But don't fucking fool yourselves, MMO's (particularly post-WoW) reinforced one important concept to the business community: games can have recurring revenue. Recurring revenue =  for investors and managers. So I'm pretty skeptical how much of this is 'for the good of the game' and how much is 'because that's what we said in our business plan'.

As schild said - if the value is there, fine. After all it would be hard to offer something crappier than the current $20 MMORPG's. So if it's a fucking amazing game with a huge and extended online component, fine. But if it's 1/3 of a finished game requiring a subscription to actually play in a worthwhile manner - well fuck it. PC gaming's dead after all isn't it? :P

[Azazel]

It's sounding an awful lot like the second of those, really. Additional subscriber "elite" -only content beginning almost immediately (becauuse, after all, why would you sub up front if there were no benefits for it) really scream to me of content that's being developed and will be pretty much ready on release, but will be held back and out of retail for the "l33t" subscribers.

I hope this game falls flat on it's face. We don't need this form of bullshit proving to be a successful model. And schild, I know you're both wet and hard for this game right now, but I think you're going to end up horribly disappointed.

[Merusk]

Mmmm.. Titan Quest.

[Typhon]

Wow.  Just wow.  People all over the web working overtime to get themselves all lathered up over this one (BluesNews and Hellgate posters have lost their minds).

Instead of leaping instantly to an impossible worst case scenario, why not calmly and rationally think about what this means to you.  You can play the game offline, just like anyother action RPG, such as, say, Diablo 2.  Then, if you really like it, and you have friends, you can go online and try it as a group.  Maybe it's not too laggy, and the difficulty adjusts itself correctly so that its a decent challenge as a group.  Then, and only then, should you consider paying a fee to unlock the other stuff.  What's the other stuff?

From BluesNews - http://www.bluesnews.com/cgi-bin/board.pl?action=viewthread&threadid=77644

• 24/7 support - if the game is buggy, you won't be playing, let alone need support
• no server queues - if the game isn't fun offline, why would you go online?  if the game isn't fun in a group, why would you go online?  if the game isn't popular, why would there be queues?
• extra characters - there are only three character "types" (with some subtypes within those), I believe you get three slots to start.  If you want more slots you must really like this game so maybe you should think about paying a subscription to support additional development of this game, eh?
• a larger inventory - choices, choices, it's all about choices.  if the game isn't so exciting to you that you play enough to fill out the inventory this shouldn't be a problem
• access to additional game modes - at launch this means one thing: mutliplayer.  This game wasn't built for multiplayer, it was tacked on.  Therefore, Hellgate mutliplayer is almost certainly going to be a diversion, not something that sets the online PvP world aflame.
• and more - access to additional content: items, monsters, eventually zones and char classes.  I read this as "immediate access to stuff that we'll be putting into an expansion pack".
  

But I guess thinking things through rationally like that isn't fun. It's more fun to imagine that the game sucks but at the same time is hugely popular, and for some reason even though it sucks you want to play very badly so that you are spending all your leisure time stuck in queues while you are forced to watch the elite sub sonofabitches drive by in their mercedes with hot succubi in the back... and then those elite bastids get cool loot that pwns you even though you haven't gotten an elite subscription and therefore can't do multiplayer!  Holy Crap! Bill's an evil genius!

GameSpy has a longerish interview with evil Bill - http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/hellgate-london/786714p1.html

Not everything is a fucking conspiracy.  Maybe, just maybe, it's possible that they are wanting to change their business model because of their experience with Diablo 2.  Maybe they are thinking - it's good for us, let's us add in those things that we wanted to do but didn't have time without the suits breathing down are necks for wasting time on shit that doesn't make us anymore money.  Yeah, that's the ticket... and it's good for the customer cause they get a (somewhat) steadier stream of updates.  Course, that's probably naive, they probably eat babies in their basements and need your cash to buy more babies.

So you buy the game, play a bit, and decide that you don't want to spend $10/month.  Even then you still aren't out of the game!  From the GameSpy interview, Bill speculates that there will come a time when they need to sync content between subscribers and non-subscribers.  Just wait until that time comes and you'll get all/some of the elite content either for "free", or rolled into an expansion.

[Trippy]

What happens to all your extra character stuff (slots, items, inventory, etc.) if you subscribe and then unsubscribe?

[Surlyboi]

What happens to all your extra character stuff (slots, items, inventory, etc.) if you subscribe and then unsubscribe?

Smedley comes to your house and physically removes it from your hard drive.

(Yeah, I know smed has nothing to do with Hellgate, but who can resist a poke?)

[Ragnoros]

Smedley comes to your house and physically removes it from your hard drive.

(Yeah, I know smed has nothing to do with Hellgate, but who can resist a poke?)

Possible, but more likely they are just disabled/locked out so you can't access them until you resub. 

Or here I"ll quote the man.

GameSpy: What if someone subscribes to Elite, but chooses to end their subscription? Does their gear undergo some Back To The Future effect where it just fades away?

    Bill Roper: [chuckles] Nothing will ever disappear. We don't want you to suddenly lose items. Your worst-case scenario in those events (and granted, we haven't figured out every nuance of what happens to items like that) is that you would lose access to things. For example, as a "value player," you have three character slots, while the Elite has twelve. So you'd keep your three top slots, and we might have a way to choose who your top three guys are. So if you stop or cancel for whatever reason, you have access to those three, but not the rest. Those other characters won't get deleted, you'll never lose them, you just can't use them.

    Same things with items, or extra stash space. We'd just gray those things out; close that part of the bank. The basic idea is that you don't lose things, you just can't use them.

Edit more: Bill also mentioned CoX as his model for the content updates. Wanting to do a nice big chunk of content every quarter. Mind you Cryptic sucks at getting them out in a reasonable amount of time but such is life.

[Merusk]

The difference between 'lose' and 'cant access' is so subtle as to not be worth splitting that hair, imo.   One plays real MMOs with the understanding that some day it'll all go away.  I buy S.P. games for the fact that I can play them years later and still get the full experience.

  That's not the case here, so just call it like it is.  Yes, you lose those items when you stop paying, until such time as you pay again.  Saying it any other way is trying to politic your way around and not scare people off.

[Typhon]

As far as numbers of chars go, my take is that it's like Diablo.  They don't care how many chars you have offline cause it's not eating up their disk space.  Online, the subbed/not subbed rules apply as far as number of chars (12 if subbed/3 if not) - which is somewhat consistent with what Diablo did (if you didn't use your char for three months, they deleted it).

As far as the other stuff - my guess is that you only get the elite content for single player (items, monsters, zones) if you sub elite.  All of the other elite perks only apply if you are going online (queues and pvp for launch, longer term stuff like guild housing, etc)

What I'm concerned about is that the 3D action experience will not be as satisfying as Diablo.  I see the way the paladin jumps in the air and his sword "hits" the demons and it looks... not good.  There models seem too stiff.  The weapon contact... uh, yeah.  The special maneuvers all seem to be some sort of jumping straight up and down with spinning/sword action.  If it's not fluid and easy to control it's going to annoy me.  Course, it hasn't launched yet so hopefully they have time to tighten that stuff up.

[NiX]

What I'm concerned about is that the 3D action experience will not be as satisfying as Diablo.  I see the way the paladin jumps in the air and his sword "hits" the demons and it looks... not good.  There models seem too stiff.  The weapon contact... uh, yeah.  The special maneuvers all seem to be some sort of jumping straight up and down with spinning/sword action.  If it's not fluid and easy to control it's going to annoy me.  Course, it hasn't launched yet so hopefully they have time to tighten that stuff up.

Every video I saw was the guy running backwards kiting the mobs and that was it. I wasn't too impressed with how the combat looked. They need to make some side plan for .. "value players". Something to the tune of EQ2's optional packs that you can throw down 3-10 bucks for and get a decent amount of content out of.

[schild]

Value players.


Lol.

[MrHat]

Value players.


Lol.

Ya, that reeked of marketing bullshit.

[schild]

Hat, I was making fun of the people. Not the marketing.

The term "value" is HILARITY.

[Azazel]

I wrote a long SirBruce-ish post, but I'll do it short and sweet instead.

Typhus, stop sucking the devs' cocks so hard on this. You're as bad as the worst of the "the sky is falling" types.


Speaking for myself, I've never been super-pumped for this title, but I think that the business model for this game will be a bad thing for gamers if it succeeds, which is why I hope it doesn't.

The game's not going to be D3 anyway.

[Trippy]

Or here I"ll quote the man.

GameSpy: What if someone subscribes to Elite, but chooses to end their subscription? Does their gear undergo some Back To The Future effect where it just fades away?

    Bill Roper: [chuckles] Nothing will ever disappear. We don't want you to suddenly lose items. Your worst-case scenario in those events (and granted, we haven't figured out every nuance of what happens to items like that) is that you would lose access to things.

Good to see that they've thought long and hard about the problem of subscribing and unsubscribing before deciding on their business model

Edit more: Bill also mentioned CoX as his model for the content updates. Wanting to do a nice big chunk of content every quarter. Mind you Cryptic sucks at getting them out in a reasonable amount of time but such is life.

Cryptic hasn't been that bad. They just celebrated their 3 year anniversary and there's been 9 updates in that time, so 3 per year isn't quite one a quarter but it's not too bad, especially since they've all been free.

[Engels]

Not to mention that their releases are generally flawless, with occasional tweaks needed here and there. I wish the same could be said for most MMOs out there.

[Ragnoros]

Cryptic hasn't been that bad. They just celebrated their 3 year anniversary and there's been 9 updates in that time, so 3 per year isn't quite one a quarter but it's not too bad, especially since they've all been free.

Hey I wasn't bashing CoX. That was simply a fanboy being unhappy about waiting for new content. It would have been nice getting one every four months but it was never consistent. You would get one then wait seven months for the next and then have one in two then wait another five. But thats not the point. The point -I think- is I love CoX. Also mind you that they weren't "free" three years of CoX would be $540 before taxes.

I wrote a long SirBruce-ish post, but I'll do it short and sweet instead.

Typhus, stop sucking the devs' cocks so hard on this. You're as bad as the worst of the "the sky is falling" types.


Speaking for myself, I've never been super-pumped for this title, but I think that the business model for this game will be a bad thing for gamers if it succeeds, which is why I hope it doesn't.

The game's not going to be D3 anyway.

i'm going to stick up for him here, hope you don't mind to much man.

Look Azazel (whenever someone stats a sentence with the word look you already know how the rest is going down) FSS is not the devil for wanting extra cash for extra stuff. For your $50 box fee you get offline and basic online gameplay. You can play as much as you want as long as you want. However if you like the game and want to make a guild and buy a house and go raid (God I hope there wont be raids) the new uber Diablo boss then they want want some compensation. Yes you could argue that it should have been in the game to start with, but you can argue that with most any game. Reality is they have to ship it sometime, just like every other big game. You could also say they should give us the stuff for free to keep everyone happy. But hey, player goodwill doesn't keep the power on, or pay for server upkeep.

Now mind you this could all be a moot point. People have already had these arguments before, and they will have them again. But if the game sucks no one will give a flying fuck.
Myself I'm hoping for the best.

[dusematic]

If the rings make the "ping" sound when they drop, count me in.

[Margalis]

I'm not paying a monthly fee for an online FPS game when so many FPS games have free online modes. It is that simple to me and I'm sure many others will feel the same way.

[Azazel]

Look Azazel (whenever someone stats a sentence with the word look you already know how the rest is going down)

Margalis essentially nailed my first point.

The other thing is that I don't mind buying expacks to pay for extra content. God only knows how many games' expacks I have sitting in the shelf behind me. I take issue with the way these guys are presenting the extra content, and the fact that they've decided to pull a "Legacy of Ykesha" to tie basic upgrade functionality to paying an ongoing fee. $10 a month. How much do expacks generally cost for games in the US? $20? $30? (I don't live there, so I don't know). I know new retail games run $40-50. So unless you're getting a full expnasion pack's worth of new content every couple of months, I'm not seeing the value.

As I said, It's not personal (I've never had much excitement for this title), but I think it's simply a greed-based decision on the back of WoW's success, and if the business model works for this game it sets a very bad precedent for PC games and gamers.