StarCraft 2 announcement on the 19th of May

[Strazos]

The same game with pretty graphics and a few new units? Pass.

[MrHat]

The same game with pretty graphics and a few new units? Pass.

As someone who buys a new Madden '08 every year, I bite my thumb at thee sir.

[atricks]

   Starcraft 2 will do amazingly well despite all this.  Damn the stuff i'm reading here reads just like what i was reading the time Starcraft 1 came out and everyone was calling it Warcraft 2 in space.   

   RTS have had bit of a revival lately, with old franchises being resurrected (Command and Conquer 3, Supreme Commander from TA), Company of Heroes, etc.  The time is right for Starcraft 2.   Quite frankly I'm sick of MMOs, and probably will be for a while. 

   Starcraft 2 will be good because it's a highly highly polished experience that just improves on what already worked pretty well.  Take all the Blizzard bias away and it stands pretty well on its own.

   A starcraft mmo should be nothing like Wow or zoned based games.  If anything something like a mmo version of Starflight or Star Control with planets and space battles would work.   "Yet another fucking fantasy MMO" with a space skin it should not be.
 

[Megrim]

Characters and story? What? Starcraft's strength was ONLY it's gameplay. What is this character and story shit? Did I miss a Starcraft?

Yeah I couldn't tell you a single character from Starcraft's story. The gameplay itself, like Warcraft II, was just insanely addictive.

Incidentally, when Starcraft came out, I didn't have a PC at the time. So when the Nintendo 64 version came out, I snatched it up and sunk hours upon hours into that game.

So I'm definitely looking forward to Starcraft II. I haven't played a RTS since Warcraft III (which I was a bit disappointed in).

Kerrigan, Tassadar and Raynor don't ring any bells? Come on now...

[Akkori]

At the very least, BLizzard can do *something* new with SC2 by just packing it full of storylines and campaigns. All the RTS' I played were fun, and their single-player progressions were okay, but I would love to see an RTS come out that would take at least a month to get through on easy/medium difficulty. Then they could support it with patches which regularly introduce more and more stories and campaigns that you could buy for a couple bucks each. Micro-expansion, if you will. Hell, lets go crazy and suggest that they review player-generated content, and if it is up to snuff, use it in a micro-expansion and give the player who made it a cut of the money.
If they could make an RTS that did not fall off in popularity when you did all the campaigns and "death-matched" it to death, then it would be cool.

This could also work to build up the IP enough to prime it for an MMO.

[Darkgar]

It will do well on it's name alone for sure and it's an upgrade to all the SC and WCIII players out there.  I do feel the story will be Metzen-ized and tied to the WoW lore more tightly (ugh *shakes fist*).  Based on current way they are ruining WoW, I do not want Blizzard to do another MMO, they do have this franchise and Diablo to re-visit and I would be happy even if they were a bit "more of the same just updated".

I am not going to like waiting five to three to five more years for Diablo III (a touch of sour grapes on my part - #evil grin#), but D2 for me never got old as quick as RTS's like SC do.  But I will get the game the first time I can get a discount on it for kicks alone.

*dreams of a Zy-El  or Eastern Sun mod for D3 sometime before he retires*

[Yegolev]

I can't believe Blizzard is using their shitty, much reviled bittorrent system to download the trailers.

Why are you shocked?  The largest, most profitable MOG in the world uses it for patch distribution.

[Litigator]

At the very least, BLizzard can do *something* new with SC2 by just packing it full of storylines and campaigns. All the RTS' I played were fun, and their single-player progressions were okay, but I would love to see an RTS come out that would take at least a month to get through on easy/medium difficulty. Then they could support it with patches which regularly introduce more and more stories and campaigns that you could buy for a couple bucks each. Micro-expansion, if you will. Hell, lets go crazy and suggest that they review player-generated content, and if it is up to snuff, use it in a micro-expansion and give the player who made it a cut of the money.
If they could make an RTS that did not fall off in popularity when you did all the campaigns and "death-matched" it to death, then it would be cool.

This could also work to build up the IP enough to prime it for an MMO.

No, I don't want to see an endless story in an RTS campaign. RTS scenarios are built around expanding the options available and constructing the missions around the use of specific units or unit combinations, with the big combined arms battle with all the stuff unlocked at the end. The last act of the campaign needs to feel like a climax, and the arc of the campaign should teach you the units, so you can go from the campaign to the online multiplayer.

I expect Starcraft 2 to be built from the ground up to replace Starcraft as the definitive tournament/e-sport RTS, although the campaign will be stellar; Blizzard's always are.

[Yegolev]

OK my opinion here is that if you want to turn a RTS into a MOG, you will need to set it up so there is an end.  Current graphical MUDs are designed to run continuously, but I think someone needs to set up a territorial-conquest game that terminates once someone wins and everyone starts up a new game.  Of course, I don't really know if I support cross-game persistence in that, so you would not really have a MOG in that case.

[Margalis]

Blizzard has stated that the single player is an afterthought.

Starcraft 2 will do amazingly well despite all this.  Damn the stuff i'm reading here reads just like what i was reading the time Starcraft 1 came out and everyone was calling it Warcraft 2 in space.   

You do realize that when SC1 was first demoed it literally was WC in space and that they totally revamped that game after that right? I don't remember anyone calling it War in space after the revamp.

[AcidCat]

Kerrigan, Tassadar and Raynor don't ring any bells? Come on now...

Well now that you MENTION it! 

[Tannhauser]

Allow me to predict Blizz's long-term strategery now.

Since SC2 is a RTS one may assume Blizz doesn't want another MMO to 'suck away the WoW playerbase' and compete with itself.
So this means D3 will also NOT be a MMO and will be another, shinier version of D2 with more bells and even a whistle or two.

I would kill my family and burn down their houses for a Mass Effect type MMO.

[Megrim]

Couple of articles up on gamespot.

Artistic vision.
Design theory.

This is the direct rip:

Art

At the 2007 Worldwide Invitational event, Blizzard Entertainment is offering tournament play for its hardcore fans and open panel discussions for its inquisitive ones. The company's senior artists, including senior 3D artist Dave Berggren, senior 3D artist Allen Dilling, senior 3D artist Trevor Jacobs, lead technical artist Rob McNaughton, and senior art director Samwise Didier, sit on a panel to discuss how the studio creates art "the Blizzard way."

Didier explains that within the core philosophies of Blizzard art design, "nothing is subtle--every character is over-the-top; every environment is either beautiful or battle-scarred." Says, the art director, Blizzard's characters come to life by means of strong silhouettes, exaggerated proportions, distinctive animations, and "bold, saturated colors" so that they not only look memorable, but are easy to distinguish at a glance--an important quality for real-time strategy units that must often be viewed from a zoomed-out view. Didier adds that at Blizzard, art is something that "isn't finished until the game is shipped"--artists typically work on continued passes right until games are complete.

Technical artist McNaughton then takes the stage and explains how the studio uses a handful of primary art tools to create its games; Adobe Photoshop for texture art, 3D Studio Max for its low-polygon models, Mudbox for its high-polygon models, and its own proprietary toolsets, such as "Startools," to create in-game objects such as trees and other "doodads," and "Scumedit," the updated map editor. McNaughton also points out that Startools and Scumedit will be part of the map- and mod-making tools that will ship wth the game. McNaughton explains that Starcraft II's graphics will be based off of the DirectX 9.0 API will full support for Pixel Shader 2.0, including support for conventional DirectX 9.0 effets such as normal mapping and high dynamic range lighting and bloom. However, though the game will be playable on both WindowsXP and Vista, Starcraft II, in its current early state, does not support DirectX 10. The artist tempers his description of the advanced graphical effects by explaining that although the game will feature advanced graphical effects, it will scale, to some extent, downward to still allow players who don't own cutting-edge PC hardware to play the game.

3D artist Trevor Jacobs then discusses the process of how Blizzard starts with 2D concept art and eventualy arrives at finished models, using the Protoss "immortal" tank as an example to go from hand drawing to rough model (adjusted to make sure the model looks good from the traditional RTS overhead view) to texturing to polish, and 3D artist Allen Dilling reiterates the importance of creating distinctive animations for units. As an example, Dilling shows the Starcraft II flying mutalisk and tiny, doglike zerglings in action, both alone and in large crowds. Starcraft II's units will have multiple "move cycle" animations so they don't all move in unison with the exact same frames of animation; the crowd of zerglings looks especially creepy because none of them seems to be running about in the same way or in the same direction, like a swarm of hyperactive fire ants. Dilling explains that because Starcraft II is being developed with professional competition in mind, the sequel's special effects will be "tight, fast, and quick" such that they don't obscure the action or slow down your computer. However, "landmark events" like the summoning of the top-level protoss mothership unit will be accompanied by sufficient graphical fanfare to point out their importance.

The panel winds down with a brief presentaton on environments from 3D artist Dave Berggren, who suggests that Starcraft II will take place both in new worlds and in worlds that had appeared in the original game. Berggren shows concepts for the protoss world of Bel'Shir, a lush, jungle planet that had once served as a religious retreat for the race before it was sacked by the zerg--the planet has since become covered in ruined temples. Berggren also introduces Braxis Alpha, the terran settlement that appeared in yesterday's video presentation. Braxis Alpha will be a combination of industrial wasteland and mountainous regions, covered in craggy rock formations and factory-like debris, such as loose gears and turbines that jut out from mountain faces. Finally, Berggren shows concept art of the zerg world of Char (where Kerrigan, the former terran ghost unit-turned-zerg-commander holds court), which will, like in the previous games, be a craggy, volcanic planet covered in lava floes. Berggren points out that although Blizzard's art team is taking advantage of modern texturing approaches to environments by mapping terrains and overlaying photorealistic textures, the art team will also make final passes to tweak environmental areas by hand.


Design

Believe it or not, even though the Blizzard Worldwide Invitational 2007 event is home to music concerts and some of the biggest game tournaments in the world, one of the most intriguing activities is actually sitting quietly in a theater. Three of Blizzard's top creative talents, creative director Andy Chambers, senior game designer Dustin Browder, and vice president of game design Rob Pardo sit on a panel to discuss gameplay details for the company's newly announced sequel, Starcraft II.

Pardo begins the discussion by revisiting several of the studio's previous games, going back as far as Warcraft II, which the vice president cites as the first Blizzard game to garner a significant following as a competitive multiplayer game. Pardo explains that the original Starcraft arose from the team's desire to create a fast-paced real-time strategy game like Warcraft II, but in a different universe, then describes how Blizzard's subsequent RTS project, 2002's Warcraft III, took a very different approach by offering slower-paced gameplay with smaller armies, hero units, and many units with activatable abilities to appeal to "the average gamer." Pardo suggests that the units in both the original Starcraft, and in the sequel, will instead act as "movers and shooters"--mostly autonomous forces that generally lack special abilties, but will instead be used in large control groups to "do their own thing" in battle, rather than requiring the micromanagement of high-level Warcraft III play.

Pardo continues to contrast Warcraft III against Starcraft II, explaining that Warcraft III had less of an emphasis on economic buildup to allow more focus on battles. The 2002 game also, suggests the VP, was much less about early-game victories. While that game did introduce "creeps"--neutral creatures that could be fought to gain experience points for your hero units, early armies in Warcraft III were generally capable of only harrassing your enemies, not defeating them outright. Pardo suggests that "with Starcraft II, [Blizzard is] really going back to its roots to make a true sequel to Starcraft"--a sequel where resource management will be much more central to gameplay, with less micromanagement of different units with special abilities, and in which full-on early-game "rushing" (making an all-out assault at or near the beginning of a new game session) will be much more viable. In fact, the VP goes on to state that the game will probably offer more early "tech tree" optons--different development paths players can take by building different structures and researching different upgrades--which will make early-game scouting more important, and will make early-game rushing a more-diverse and deeper strategy.

Pardo also suggests that Warcraft III might have been a more-forgiving game for beginners--differences in skill levels seemed less pronounced in that game. Says the VP, in Starcraft II, there will be many more nuances that will separate highly skilled players from beginners, and good players from great ones. So in contrast to the sometimes-protracted matches of Warcraft III, Pardo expects the average Starcraft II multiplayer match to last about 20 minutes of real time; possibly even as little as 15 minutes when played by the pros. Pardo points out that there will be numerous subtleties added to the game that expert players will learn to use to their advantage, such as a revamped "high ground" system. In the previous Starcraft, ground units that had a height advantage by standing on high ground gained attack bonuses, but would also reveal themselves when attacking. In the sequel, units with high ground will still gain the attack bonuses but will remain concealed by the "fog of war" (the black shroud that covers unexplored areas)--a fact that can be used together with other line-of-signt nuances to your advantage.

Pardo ends his part of the talk by emphasizing that Blizzard remains committed to making the three factions distinct, and to making Starcraft II's gameplay true to the original game, but also different and new. For instance, the VP cites the new protoss units and abilities that have been shown--the ability to "warp-in" to different locations, and the powerful mothership unit. Says the VP, yes, Blizzard could have also looked to create a "terran version" and a "protoss version" of these new units and abilities, but the team did not. It is instead looking to balance the factions against each other while keeping them distinct. Pardo suggests that Starcraft II will, like the original game, still be a game about "hard counters"--such as how certain units can be directly "countered" (defeated decisively) by specific counter-units; as an example, Pardo shows a brief demonstration of protoss templar units, which are the counter-unit to zerglings, annihilating a swarm of the tiny zerg infantry with their "psi storm" ability. Says Pardo: "Yes, [Starcraft II] will stil be fast-paced and have 'multitasking' for resources and combat, but it'll be a very different game."

The floor is then given to game designer Dustin Browder, who uses his time to cite specific examples of different units in play. To begin with, Browder shows a demonstration of the protoss stalker, a ground-based unit that can attack both air and ground enemies and isn't all that tough, but can "blink" (warp in and out) to any location to which they have line of sight. The obvious uses of this handy ability include pursuing fleeing units by constantly "blinking in" in front of them, but they can also apparently be used as powerful base raiders by bypassing terrain barriers if you have an aerial scout, such as the protoss phoenix, to quickly get you line-of-sight beyond terrain obstacles. In addition, extremely skilled players will be able to defeat slower-moving melee enemies with stalkers by sticking and moving, repeatedly blinking in and out of range. The designer shows a demonstration of stalkers up against a group of protoss zealots, somewhat slow melee units that simply aren't able to close in for a hit as the stalkers keep blinking away and firing constantly, eventually winning the battle.

Browder shows how the new units and new abilties for existing units will help diversify gameplay and work within the counter-unit system. For instance, the protoss immortal, a ground-based tank unit, is extremely tough but slow (and can therefore be countered by quick-thinking players with enough resources to build up counter-units, and is also therefore not able to effectively flee from a losing battle), and possesses a powerful energy shield that is triggered only from heavy-duty fire. This makes the immortal a natural counter-unit for the terran siege tank, whose powerful cannons can't do much against the immortal's energy shield. However, the slow-moving immortals themselves can be easily countered by a large swarm of zerglings, which don't deal enough damage to trigger the immortals' shields, and are too quick for the tank to outrun.

Browder then shows an additional example of the kind of subtleties that will separate skilled players from unskilled players. The protoss phoenix, a flying unit, has a special "overload" ability that creates a damaging energy field around itself, then renders it immobile and helpless shortly afterward. Browder shows a simulated battle between a player with six phoenix units and another player with only four. The player with six phoenixes apparently chokes and uses the overload ability too early, allowing the other player to dodge out of harm's way, then arrange the four phoenixes around the now immobile six in a loose formation and overload the six into oblivion, which suggests that sheer numbers won't always prevail in the face of high-level skill in Starcraft II.

Browder then shows a demonstration of protoss warp-in technology, which can be used to mount a powerful surprise offense by summoning a large army seemingly out of nowhere. However, the same tech can apparently be used for base defense; the designer shows how an early zergling raid on a protoss base goes sour as the tiny zerg suddenly find themselves boxed in between protoss buildings and a small contingent of melee-attacking zealots, with immortal tanks lobbing fire from a distance. The designer closes by stating that the team's goals are to "recapture the magic of the original Starcraft, which was a wonderful, wonderful game," and to "make Starcraft II about these three unique races by generating new tactics and strategies."

The panel then takes various questions which reveal some intriguing new details about the sequel. An audience question about future beta plans prompts Pardo to state that Starcraft II will likely have a "closed beta by invitation, similar to [Blizzard's] other products, though this time, [Blizzard] will also enlist the help of pro players to help test for balance." When asked about the status of the terrans (who were decimated at the end of the Brood War expansion pack for the original Starcraft), creative designer Andy Chambers explains that "the UED terran forces were destroyed by Kerrigan's zerg armies (though a few surviving companies may stil be around somewhere)," and that the Terran faction in Starcraft II will primarily consist of the "evil empire" of the Terran Dominion. When asked about the status of lead character Jim Raynor, Chambers replies that since Starcraft II takes place four years after Brood War, "Raynor has been having some adventures for sure," but declines to comment further. Chambers also suggests that the ancient Xel'Naga, which helped both the protoss and zerg races become what they are (but were later destroyed by the zerg) will also figure into Starcraft II's story "in a rather epic tale." To cap the presentation, Browder fields a final question that may come as a relief to some players: that there are "no plans at this time for naval combat in Starcraft II."

---


So, they seem to be aware of some of the major concerns the SC community has: clarity of visual presentation - something much lamented in War3, gameplay speed, the viability of tech vs early pressure and low(er than usual) system requirement. Oh and the single-player is going to be "epic", which i suppose puts a dampener on all of you who are becrying Blizzard's commitment to the non-multiplayer part of the game.

I think at the moment i am in the 'cautiously optimistic' camp (what you say? My avatar? Fanboi, huh, what? Nooo....), much the same as i was regarding Supreme Commander. Here's to hoping Blizzard have their head screwed on right.

[Trippy]

creative director Andy Chambers

Oh, the irony :-D

(Yes it really is that Andy Chambers)

[Merusk]

creative director Andy Chambers

Oh, the irony :-D

(Yes it really is that Andy Chambers)

Please explain for the slow among us who don't actually follow devs like they're sports stars. All I get from Google is some guy who used to work for Games Workshop in some capacity.

[Trippy]

creative director Andy Chambers

Oh, the irony :-D

(Yes it really is that Andy Chambers)

Please explain for the slow among us who don't actually follow devs like they're sports stars. All I get from Google is some guy who used to work for Games Workshop in some capacity.

Andy Chambers was the designer on the 2nd and 3rd editions of WH40K and left right before the 4th edition came out (don't remember how he's credited in that edition). Andy didn't create WH40K, that was Rick Priestly, but Andy's the one who did the design during the big growth phases of that game so he's the one I think most people associate with as the designer of the game. It's somewhat like how people associate Rob Pardo as the designer of WoW even though it was actually Allen Adham who did the original design.

[Teleku]

Dear god that Protoss Mothership looks powerfull.  Not only does it have the independance day type weapon and shield, it also can create a god damn black hole that sucks everything into it.  I wonder if each race gets some sort of mega ship.  They should call the Terran one a Titan ;).

[Paelos]

I own the original Starcraft. I didn't buy the expansion and I don't plan on buying this one either. Polish alone won't do it for me in the RTS market anymore. You have to do something really new for me to get excited about the game, and multiplayer RTS has sucked away the last part of my soul that gives a damn.

[Morat20]

I own the original Starcraft. I didn't buy the expansion and I don't plan on buying this one either. Polish alone won't do it for me in the RTS market anymore. You have to do something really new for me to get excited about the game, and multiplayer RTS has sucked away the last part of my soul that gives a damn.

The Brood War expansion was a pretty good one. Effectively wiped out the last balance problems, added a bunch of new strategic options, and (IIRC) gave the AI a kick to the pants.

[Samwise]

I forget sometimes that the original Starcraft didn't have medics, or lurkers, or dark templar, or dark archons, or devourers, or corsairs.  Which is a testament to how well the new units fit in to the game, even though many of them seemed cheesy at first glance.

Looking forward to seeing what they come up with for SC 2.

[Morat20]

I forget sometimes that the original Starcraft didn't have medics, or lurkers, or dark templar, or dark archons, or devourers, or corsairs.  Which is a testament to how well the new units fit in to the game, even though many of them seemed cheesy at first glance.

Looking forward to seeing what they come up with for SC 2.

As a dedicated fan of all things Protoss, I did live for the days when I'd manage to snag a Zerg broodling (or whatever they were called -- it's been years) and start creating my own Zerg army.

When playing against the NPC, I almost always had my own collection of Overlords for transport. :)

I think I might reload the game and call up some of friends and get a little action going. I haven't played an RTS since Age of Mythology (and that damn thing never ran quite right with my router...)

[Register]

The full ingame demo video is out at the starcraft 2 website. There's a huge 400+ MB Hiigh Res vid there - catch is its using the infamous Blizzard Bitorrent thingie for distribution. It's pretty though - at high res you get to see the tiny moving parts and details that gets missed out in the you tube clips; and it comes with commentary discussing on the various units as they are introduced.

Dear god that Protoss Mothership looks powerfull.  Not only does it have the independance day type weapon and shield, it also can create a god damn black hole that sucks everything into it.  I wonder if each race gets some sort of mega ship.  They should call the Terran one a Titan.

I think its mentioned that the mothership comes with limited energy - the one in the demo was able to use all 3 abilities only because they cheated to gave it extra energy. Also, from the looks of it the ground laser (planetcracker) seems to drain and remove the glowing blue shield around the mothership - my guess is that its an offense that sacrifices defense.

[Teleku]

Oh yeah, I'm sure they will balance it.  It's just that all 3 of those abilities are pretty damn powerfull on their own, and all packed into one ship.  Can't wait to see what the other races get.

[schild]

They'll balance it. It'll just take 3 years of koreans bitching and moaning on their forums until they get it right.

[Trippy]

They'll balance it. It'll just take 3 years of koreans bitching and moaning on their forums until they get it right.

Pretty much, though they are doing something different this time around and are recruiting the top SC players to be a part of the early balancing phase of the Beta.

[Miasma]

Even when Blizzard eventually manages to balance it they seem to have taken the whole paper/rock/scissor idea a bit too far.  Things like how battlecruisers can't touch those new protoss ships but tiny little hand held gunfire tear them up.  Whenever you want to attack an enemy base you're going to need to bring about ten different units to counter everything...  Gameplay is probably going to devolve into building up three or four types of units and just hoping the other guy focused on the units you can destroy.

Meh, I hope the solo campaign has a good story.  That leads into an MMO damn it.

[Teleku]

Nah, Warcraft 3 and SC1 both did the paper/rock/scissor thing.  It just means that you choose a particular build strategy based around a few unit types and hope your opponent doesnt build or has time to change his build to something that counters yours.  Trying to build a few of everything doesnt seem to ever work great since you cant micro manage everything to be its most effecitive, and you wont have the time to upgrade the wide array of units you have to their full potential.

[Paelos]

Nah, Warcraft 3 and SC1 both did the paper/rock/scissor thing.  It just means that you choose a particular build strategy based around a few unit types and hope your opponent doesnt build or has time to change his build to something that counters yours.  Trying to build a few of everything doesnt seem to ever work great since you cant micro manage everything to be its most effecitive, and you wont have the time to upgrade the wide array of units you have to their full potential.

Does this not seem hopelessly stupid to yall? This kind of crap made me absolutely despise those versions of RTS. I mean having units with advantages and disadvantages is fine, but making them so that they are horrible vulnerable to a specific type of unit while making them overpowering to another doesn't add to the gameplay in my view. I understand like anti-air, anti-ground, long range strike, etc, but this just seems to be overkill to the point of absudity.

[Teleku]

Err, what else do you want?  Just build a bunch of random units with no real strength or weakness's over each other and throw them all in a blob at a base?  Can you give an example of the types of RTS you like?  Blizzard goes for the heavy paper/rock/scissor approach, which allows for a fairly deep tactical game (for an RTS) that remains fast paced and fun.  Not saying you have to like it, but I always enjoyed it.  It's a big step up from many other RTS's (past and present) where you just build up a blob of the best unit for your side as fast as you can and insta win.  Blizzard, as usual, is just bending realism to better allow for fun gameplay.  This is fine.  If I want a terribly realistic (sort of) strategy game, I'll just start up a new game of HoI2 ;).

[Trippy]

Nah, Warcraft 3 and SC1 both did the paper/rock/scissor thing.  It just means that you choose a particular build strategy based around a few unit types and hope your opponent doesnt build or has time to change his build to something that counters yours.  Trying to build a few of everything doesnt seem to ever work great since you cant micro manage everything to be its most effecitive, and you wont have the time to upgrade the wide array of units you have to their full potential.

Does this not seem hopelessly stupid to yall? This kind of crap made me absolutely despise those versions of RTS. I mean having units with advantages and disadvantages is fine, but making them so that they are horrible vulnerable to a specific type of unit while making them overpowering to another doesn't add to the gameplay in my view. I understand like anti-air, anti-ground, long range strike, etc, but this just seems to be overkill to the point of absudity.

I agree that the sort of extreme counters that the video implies can be kind of annoying but it's understandable why Blizzard does it that way. If you don't have explicity counters then people just turtle and build up masses of the most powerful unit and throw those at each other as is what is happening in C&C 3 right now (Mammoth Tanks rule all though they are about to get massive nerfs).

Edit: the other problem is that if the units aren't unique and useful in some way and are just scaled versions of each other they tend to be very boring. This is one of the problems TA suffered from. They had this fancy formula, balancing resource costs with unit abilities, that they used to crank out additional units on a regular basis but many of them were just scaled versions of existing units.

[Megrim]

Age of Empires uses rock/paper/scissors. Cavalry > archers > infantry > cavalry. The balance system employed in Starcraft is a little more complex than that. Furthermore, Warcraft3 uses a 'soft-counter' system, which is a different beast entirely.

[Margalis]

Nah, Warcraft 3 and SC1 both did the paper/rock/scissor thing.

Before Brood War SC was not really Rock/Paper/Scissors all that much. In Broodwar most of the new units served a much more specific purpose, especially the air units.

One of the problems Blizzard had balancing was that units like Hydralisks, Mutalisks and the Protoss airplanes (forget name) were general-purpose. It was hard to make Mutalisks balanced against both other air units and other ground units.

I like harder counters to some degree, but the video was really pushing it with "now here is a new unit called the 'Tank Killer' and this one here is called the 'Zergling Zapper'" I expect Clippy to pop up and give me helpful hints. "It looks like you are repelling a mass of zerglings would you like to build some laser beam guys??"

I think the big problem they have is that they are aiming at the Korean  competitive market. They can't make any major changes or innovate at all without making too many waves there. An upgraded SC is exactly what that audience wants.

[Megrim]

Are you thinking of Scouts?

The problem (for example) with Mutas in vanilla was not so much in and of themselves, but - against Terran for instance - in combination with 'lings. Muta/ling came out too fast (even with spawning pool nerfs) and in numbers far too large to be dealt with by Terran Wraiths/Goliaths (both do explosive damage, Mutas are 'small' in size, meaning they take 50% from explosive) especially since Goliaths did not have Charon missile range upgrade. Vanilla rines fared even worse, since Stim was pretty much a once-off thing, and with no healing available the greater cost-efficiency of the 'lings would run right over them, while Mutas drew fire.

The addition of Medics meant that the Z player now had to split the Terran lines, draw M&M (Marine/Medic) goups out of position, or flank to split the concentrated fire in order to beat down a push.

[Register]

So far we have not had any data on whether explosive/concussive/normal damage types still exist in SC2 - if damage types/unit size are removed for other forms of countering then the complexity have not really increased.

I feel that in the demonstration of unit counters the matches were conveniently skewed - in the Warp rays vs. Battle cruisers example the BCs have already used up all their yamato cannons abilities and are damaged from the previous fight. Looking at the last battle, one on one BC vs WR is not nearly as skewed as one might believe, and the Yamato Cannon seems to be able to one shot/heavily damage the protoss ship still.

Looking at the Immortal example,  I would guess the 'hard shield' to be a creative method to buff the dragoon without just resorting to conventional methods like greater hit pts and range or damage. With this ability I would guess that the immortals should be pretty strong against battlecruisers / colossus too.

The Banelings metamorphosis is an interesting way to make zerglings play a strong role even in the endgame - in fact, I see much of the balancing efforts aiming at letting lower tier units retain a role in the end game - much like every piece in Chess having their role and value, without being totally worthless once the match moves closer towards the endgame.

More than merely unit vs unit countering, the introduction of complete fog of war coverage for high ground will add significant complexity to terrain - High ground units can now shower death and destruction from above with impunity (in SC1 the units on high ground reveal themselves when they fire - and open themselves to counterattack). As such, high ground might stand as high in strategic importance as choke points - and it is more important than ever to have air units to accompany your ground troops.

Damn, sorry for sounding too fanboish, but the gameplay vids rekindled fond memories of old days in LAN shops fighting both friends and strangers...  :mrgreen:

[Trippy]

More than merely unit vs unit countering, the introduction of complete fog of war coverage for high ground will add significant complexity to terrain - High ground units can now shower death and destruction from above with impunity (in SC1 the units on high ground reveal themselves when they fire - and open themselves to counterattack). As such, high ground might stand as high in strategic importance as choke points - and it is more important than ever to have air units to accompany your ground troops.

Or you can build one of the new ground units that can move up and down levels to scout.