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f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  News  |  Topic: So, About That Nasty SOE/Sigil Thing 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
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Author Topic: So, About That Nasty SOE/Sigil Thing  (Read 69021 times)
Yoru
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Reply #70 on: May 01, 2007, 05:56:45 PM

I am very rarely on that sort of form, unfortunately.

Your post is getting laughs and forwarded around on an internal company mailing list here. Two people just happened to be having a flamewar about whether/how much Vanguard sucks and one of 'em whipped out the FOH link.
dusematic
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Reply #71 on: May 02, 2007, 02:26:19 AM

Here's the thing about Sigil and why I'm not really in the SOE is evil camp.

Vanguard wasn't going to be a good game. We knew that when we first heard about it, and every step of the way they proved us right.

That development, arguably, wouldn't have made the game any better had they had another 6 months to a year of money left. In fact, I'm not even sure that anyone in that development should be in gaming. The art is terrible, the concept art was terrible, the performance was shit, the optimization was shit, the music and effects sounded stock, the design was - at best - amateur hour. I'd like to see ANYONE, including members of the dev team prove me wrong.

Normally, I'm willing to bend over backwards to defend a dev team or game. But only 2 games in history have garnered as much distrust and anger as this one. Everything about the game, head to toe, was karaoke night at Applebees. It was a goddamn joke, and honestly, SOE should gut that team to hell and back and keep only the MAYBE talented but misguided few on board. And McQuaid should be sent to the London f'in Tower.

Edit: Just for the record, I'm sure a lot of blood, sweat and tears were put into Vanguard. I'm SURE there are talented people on board on the title. I'm SURE those people would and may still do great stuff elsewhere. Unfortunately, blood, sweat, tears and unrequited love don't make a good game. You have to know what fun is first, and the design team behind Vanguard doesn't have a fucking clue what fun even means let alone what it "is." And it's utterly fucking astounding that the person who is often credited as the brain behind Everquest couldn't make a fucking diku clone. COULDN'T CLONE HIS OWN DAMN PRODUCT WITH MICROSOFT BACKING. That man should be quarantined.

Oh, and get him off the internet, his posts are filled with more bullshit than anyone else's I've ever read. And I read some pretty arrogant, pompous trash.



I might grant you that the game is karaoke night at Applebees.  I did play it for the first month, I gave it an honest try.  Too painful.  The music and graphics ARE sweet though.  That's a fact.  As for the problems with the game, they are numerous and we don't need to really go into them.  The real issue is, of course, a lack of common sense.  Let's cut the hysterics.  What the fuck do you expect Brad to say?  Honestly?  I mean, not that I even care I just don't understand in what reality you exist that anyone would ever just come out and say "hey, my game sucks!  i suck too!  basically i'm so incompetent i deserve to die!" 

Whatev.   The point is, he's not the first to make a crummy game.  I think he's actually been pretty forthright about shit if you read between the lines.  Consider a company like Creative Assembly.  medieval 2 Total War is severely crippled by bugs, and the patch fiasco going on right now is sort of a paen to corporate incompetence and poor customer support.  And I think you'll find that's fairly common.  Whereas, this guy Brad actually cares/is desperate enough (same thing) to write his ass off all over the internet.  Why would you begrudge him for that?  Be real.

Edit:  The difference between old sites like Lumthemad et al. was that those people actually played the games they criticized in an effort to make them better.  I saw your Vanguard review, there's no way in hell you even gave it a chance. 
« Last Edit: May 02, 2007, 02:31:05 AM by dusematic »
schild
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Reply #72 on: May 02, 2007, 02:28:30 AM

Brad talks game but has never proven us otherwise. While I can name a shitload of companies that do that, not many of them are public in the way MMOG companies are - especially in the way Brad and his Vision are. Basically, he needs to shut the fuck up and make something decent before he gets the time of day.

Also, Vanguard was pretty fucking brown ugly. But that's total opinion.
dusematic
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Reply #73 on: May 02, 2007, 02:35:52 AM

Unless cheddar bob finally bought you that new PC, you wouldn't have the specs to see the game in all its glory. Subjectively you might not like the graphics.  But subjectively I don't like Doesteovsky, even though objectively I can recognize him as a good writer.  I just don't get the Brad hate.  He seems like he has TTH (tries too hard) but at least he tries.
schild
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Reply #74 on: May 02, 2007, 02:39:18 AM

If he's trying too hard, maybe he's just not good at making games.

I can't see why anyone would ever claim that though...

Oh, and I didn't play it on my PC.
dusematic
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Reply #75 on: May 02, 2007, 02:51:45 AM

If it makes you feel any better I only singled you out because I knew you were the least likely to stub your vagina.
Murgos
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Reply #76 on: May 02, 2007, 04:40:41 AM

The real issue is, of course, a lack of common sense.  Let's cut the hysterics.  What the fuck do you expect Brad to say?  Honestly?  I mean, not that I even care I just don't understand in what reality you exist that anyone would ever just come out and say "hey, my game sucks!  i suck too!  basically i'm so incompetent i deserve to die!" 

The problem is that he shouldn't say a god damned thing.  If he had kept his inept trap shut there would have been 1/10th the ridicule.  He is actually giving people a target to point and laugh at every time he opens his mouth.

He, and his game, would be in a better position in almost every way if he would just shut-the-fuck-up.

"You have all recieved youre last warning. I am in the process of currently tracking all of youre ips and pinging your home adressess. you should not have commencemed a war with me" - Aaron Rayburn
Big Gulp
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Reply #77 on: May 02, 2007, 05:24:12 AM

The music and graphics ARE sweet though.

No, they aren't (at least the graphics aren't, I have no idea about the music).  WoW has good graphics because it had competent art directors even though it's only pushing 1/4 of the polys Vanguard pushes, if that.  You can have the most complex rendering system imaginable, but without competent artists you wind up with flat, uninspired shit and wolf heads on human bodies.

That isn't "sweet" graphically.

ETA:  I doubt that Warhammer has anywhere near the graphical bells and whistles that vanguard does either, but look at the screenshots...  That was artwork produced with care and love, and it shows.  It has a distinct style beyond the "blah" that constitutes the artwork of either Vanguard or EQ2.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2007, 05:28:08 AM by Big Gulp »
Engels
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Reply #78 on: May 02, 2007, 09:55:33 AM

To each his own. Wolf heads aside, the detail on many of Vanguard's art is stellar, imho. An industry first in many instances, from what I can see. Warhammer's art is the same fisherprice regurgitated codswaddle WoW offers the kiddies. You're welcome to it.

That said, the basic premise of the argument, that you don't need reams of polies to make good art, stands.

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Strazos
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Reply #79 on: May 02, 2007, 11:53:45 AM

I think one reason Warhammer is going with the graphics they are, is that the focus of the game is big PvP battles, and having high-end graphics are sort of counterproductive to that goal.

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McCow
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Reply #80 on: May 03, 2007, 08:10:10 AM

They also mentioned that re-doing the artwork for Dwarves/Greenskins was high on their list of things to do (Early alpha movies and all).  I would expect it to change over the next coming months.

Words words words
HaemishM
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Reply #81 on: May 03, 2007, 12:37:06 PM

I saw your Vanguard review, there's no way in hell you even gave it a chance. 

MMOG's are no longer special. They no longer get more than 30 minutes to not suck, just like every other type of game out there.

Besides, I played Vanguard before I ever actually played it, but I played it back when it was called Everquest. McQuaid needs to stop thinking it was his "creative genius" that made Everquest and MMOG's popular, instead of the perfect storm of timing, timing and timing.

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Reply #82 on: May 03, 2007, 04:00:28 PM

What Dusematic sees as trying too hard, I see as:


,

,

, and finally
Alluvian
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Reply #83 on: May 12, 2007, 09:49:54 AM

The difference between old sites like Lumthemad et al. was that those people actually played the games they criticized in an effort to make them better.  I saw your Vanguard review, there's no way in hell you even gave it a chance. 

You can't compare LTM and a modern MMOG site and completely ignore everything that has happened in the 7+ years between them.  At least not without sounding like an idiot.

Yes, when Lum ranted about EQ1, he did so to try to make the game a better one.  Do you think Lum would have kept playing EQ1 and ranting about it if there were dozens of other MMOG games out there?  He probabaly would have shrugged and found a game that was more to his liking (and then maybe rant at that one).
Anos
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Reply #84 on: May 17, 2007, 11:31:04 AM

Quote
Reply #8 on: April 25, 2007, 06:25:49 AM
So SOE is going to buy out Verant Sigil and take over the development of Everquest Vanguard?

Wonder if Brad will get his old job back - Chief Creative Officer, wasn't it? Something like that, anyway; whatever translates to "You can come up with ideas all you like, just stay the hell away from actual development"--Simond

You win sir...
« Last Edit: May 17, 2007, 11:32:38 AM by Anos »
Kludge
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Reply #85 on: June 13, 2007, 07:47:03 PM

SOE has already started rezzing VG, with today announcing a HUGE server merge, giving a patch yesterday with 309 bug fixes, fixing what's left of hitching, falling thru world and into meshes, lowering amt. of crafting complications, fixing houses and even throwing in a few  new features.

And that's all before VG devs could get cozy in their new home (or lack thereof). Of course, it's probably already too late with the biggest servers pulling in just a couple hundred players at a time. That's what, 2-3 WoW servers?
Fabricated
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Reply #86 on: June 13, 2007, 09:01:15 PM

SOE has already started rezzing VG, with today announcing a HUGE server merge, giving a patch yesterday with 309 bug fixes, fixing what's left of hitching, falling thru world and into meshes, lowering amt. of crafting complications, fixing houses and even throwing in a few  new features.

And that's all before VG devs could get cozy in their new home (or lack thereof). Of course, it's probably already too late with the biggest servers pulling in just a couple hundred players at a time. That's what, 2-3 WoW servers?
That's one tenth of a single WoW server.

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Morat20
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Reply #87 on: June 13, 2007, 10:36:39 PM

SOE has already started rezzing VG, with today announcing a HUGE server merge, giving a patch yesterday with 309 bug fixes, fixing what's left of hitching, falling thru world and into meshes, lowering amt. of crafting complications, fixing houses and even throwing in a few  new features.

And that's all before VG devs could get cozy in their new home (or lack thereof). Of course, it's probably already too late with the biggest servers pulling in just a couple hundred players at a time. That's what, 2-3 WoW servers?
That's one tenth of a single WoW server.
Yeah, I think queues on a WoW server cut in at 3500 players now.
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Reply #88 on: June 14, 2007, 02:01:29 AM

SOE has already started rezzing VG, with today announcing a HUGE server merge, giving a patch yesterday with 309 bug fixes, fixing what's left of hitching, falling thru world and into meshes, lowering amt. of crafting complications, fixing houses and even throwing in a few  new features.

And that's all before VG devs could get cozy in their new home (or lack thereof). Of course, it's probably already too late with the biggest servers pulling in just a couple hundred players at a time. That's what, 2-3 WoW servers?
That's one tenth of a single WoW server.

Or roughly the number of people inside the Ironforge AH during prime time on a given realm.

'Reality' is the only word in the language that should always be used in quotes.
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Reply #89 on: June 14, 2007, 03:16:37 AM

SOE has already started rezzing VG, with today announcing a HUGE server merge, giving a patch yesterday with 309 bug fixes, fixing what's left of hitching, falling thru world and into meshes, lowering amt. of crafting complications, fixing houses and even throwing in a few  new features.
Speaking of SOE server merges I heard an interesting thing from somebody while playing CoH a couple of days ago.

I've been creating lots of alts these days trying to figure out if there's a power set combination that's interesting enough to do the grind all over again and have been grouping with lots of people who are playing on Trial accounts, for some reason. I like to ask them what other MMORPGs they've played to get some idea of their general MMORPG experience and one person I talked mentioned Matrix Online and so we got to talking about that.

He said that the SOE server merges in MxO ruined the game by sticking more people in each remaining server than they could handle. He mentioned something about people standing on top of each in phone booths that I didn't quite understand but given how poor the networking code was in that game when I tried out the Beta I'm not surprised it was more than the server can handle.

This sort of thing reminds me companies that buy up other failing/struggling companies, fire most of the people, and keep just those assets that are profitable with high margins -- e.g. maybe the company had some lucrative service contracts or something. They are basically "efficiency" experts and are able to wring out profits from otherwise poor/failing/crappy products.

Apparently after the debacle that was EQ II this is what SOE decided they were going to change their business strategy to -- buy up crappy MMORPGs for really cheap, ruthlessly cut costs, and then just live off of the relatively small but steady stream of profits.

This is not to say that all server merges are bad but it's clear that that's one way SOE can cut costs. The probably even have lots of surplus server hardware lying around originally allocated to EQ II and SWG that they can use to move these other games onto.
Kludge
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Reply #90 on: June 14, 2007, 09:41:38 AM

SOE has already started rezzing VG, with today announcing a HUGE server merge, giving a patch yesterday with 309 bug fixes, fixing what's left of hitching, falling thru world and into meshes, lowering amt. of crafting complications, fixing houses and even throwing in a few  new features.

And that's all before VG devs could get cozy in their new home (or lack thereof). Of course, it's probably already too late with the biggest servers pulling in just a couple hundred players at a time. That's what, 2-3 WoW servers?
That's one tenth of a single WoW server.

Pardon, I meant all the servers of VG combined ;)

With the server merges, populations still shouldn't exceed that of launch. No worries of overpopulating.
schild
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Reply #91 on: June 14, 2007, 09:44:59 AM

Apparently after the debacle that was EQ II this is what SOE decided they were going to change their business strategy to -- buy up crappy MMORPGs for really cheap, ruthlessly cut costs, and then just live off of the relatively small but steady stream of profits.

This is not to say that all server merges are bad but it's clear that that's one way SOE can cut costs. The probably even have lots of surplus server hardware lying around originally allocated to EQ II and SWG that they can use to move these other games onto.

They bought MxO to get to DC Comics.

They bought Vanguard as a last laugh.

They have 4 good sized offices and more games in development than any other American MMOG office.

As such, I disagree with what you said.
HaemishM
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Reply #92 on: June 14, 2007, 09:58:39 AM

Maybe that's a strategy they are using as a revenue source to fund their new developments.

schild
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Reply #93 on: June 14, 2007, 10:16:03 AM

Maybe that's a strategy they are using as a revenue source to fund their new developments.

It's a legitimate strategy.
Murgos
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Reply #94 on: June 14, 2007, 10:16:23 AM

I think what's closer to the truth is that SOE realizes that a poorly launched MMO is an extremely undervalued property and that with a competent team of developers they believe they can make a profit off of buying these discounted properties and 'fixing' them to a moderate level of usability and completeness.

I don't agree that they simply buy them and then ride them into the ground.  All indications are that SOE invests a good bit of money into the games after they have picked them up.

"You have all recieved youre last warning. I am in the process of currently tracking all of youre ips and pinging your home adressess. you should not have commencemed a war with me" - Aaron Rayburn
Trippy
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Reply #95 on: June 14, 2007, 10:17:24 AM

Apparently after the debacle that was EQ II this is what SOE decided they were going to change their business strategy to -- buy up crappy MMORPGs for really cheap, ruthlessly cut costs, and then just live off of the relatively small but steady stream of profits.

This is not to say that all server merges are bad but it's clear that that's one way SOE can cut costs. The probably even have lots of surplus server hardware lying around originally allocated to EQ II and SWG that they can use to move these other games onto.
They bought MxO to get to DC Comics.

They bought Vanguard as a last laugh.

They have 4 good sized offices and more games in development than any other American MMOG office.

As such, I disagree with what you said.
I didn't say they weren't making money off of their strategy. But really their history other than EQ has been to develop or to buy up incredibly underwhelming games. SWG, PlanetSide, EQ II, MxO, Vanguard -- they are just missing AA and AC2 and their collection would be complete (I'm ignoring the crappy MMOs from the smaller publishers). I thoroughly expect their upcoming games to be underwhelming as well.
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