End game? Raids?

[Johny Cee]

The way i read it raids are only one of the alternatives, just because it is there you will neither have to do it nor will you be gimped if you choose not too. That is going way back to this Developer Diary

I bolded the most important part of this post IMO. Raiders are already screaming on the forums that the best loot has to come from raids. Period. That if you want comparable loot from another source then you just want the easy path. The question boils down to several things:

1) Will comparable loot be available from different methods? This is by far the most important question.
2) Will all of the really cool areas in expansions be raids? For instance, Moria. Every fanboy wants to see that place. Will it be raid only? What about Helm's Deep? This could be a make it or break it situation for lore lovers who also don't like raids. And I suspect this is a very high number of people.
3) Will future content be balanced to raiders or to non-raiders? This ties into #1. If raiding is the only way to get uber gear, how will future encounters be balanced?

Some good points, and I agree with pretty much your entire post. I guess we will just have to take a wait and see approach at this time. This is my first experience with Turbine , however I have seen them dig in their heels a couple of times in beta and while acknowledging the forums basically told us to suck it up. They are still making gradual readjustments back toward the middle ground from the great super nerf patch from hell that they dropped on us just before release, and the boards were spammed with " I am canceling my preorder threads" when that occurred. I guess what I am saying is while it seems as if the Devs do pay attention to the community they stick to their guns on the overall development.

Psychologically,  it's better to have things a little weak at the real start of the game and continue to draft goodies in rather then have a couple classes eat big nerfs at the start of your game.

As for the raiders....   I wouldn't be averse to doing some of it every now and then,  but it sounds like the raider crowd wants the end game focus.  I'd rather have continued additions to the neat new sections of the game (achievements and deeds),  with some mild inclusive raids rather than the regimented hell it sounds like WoW raiding devolved into from friends.

It'll be interesting to see how Monster Play works out when the first big surge of pop starts hitting the 45-50 range.  I'd like to see the power level of freeps over creeps stay the same,  while giving some tangible benefits to mob players for indulging in getting slaughtered...  Tie new traits into creep play?  Make creep play an effective method of revenue generation?


I'd most like to see a change in big events from "you need 40 heros to beat 1 mob" to something approximating CoH style....  Your 24 players need to defend against a horde of mobs or somesuch.

Level 36 now,  and in the same place Xanthippe seems to be....   few solo quests,  lots of group quests that aren't particularly endearing.  Have a decent friends list of good and fun to group with folks,  but gawd beating on elites 5 levels lower than you in a group for 2 hours to finish up one quest is boring.

[palmer_eldritch]

I hope Turbine can find an answer to this, but they'll need to be very smart. It seems to me that raids need to give better rewards than normal group quests or solo quests, as it just seems dumb that a ridiculously difficult quest doesn't lead to a better magic sword than a normal quest. But then you do need to tailor new high-level content around the fact that some players will have these uber items . . . placing people without the uber items at a disadvantage. And I personally don't want to go raiding.

Perhaps a raid could just lead to *more* loot, as in you get a sword and a shield instead of just a sword.

Personally I hope they consider just putting in very hard high level 6-man dungeons. Gath Agawen (a level 35 or so dungeon) is already very long and hard, for example. It has a lot of the ingredients of a raid - the length of time needed to do it, the high chance of death, the need for player discipline - except that it only needs six people. Some level 50 versions of that would be fun.

[Hound]

this Dev Chat had some interesting info in it, looks like some aspects of the "end game" at least  will have noting to do with raids

http://lotro-forum.onlinewelten.com/showthread.php?p=1663605

<Mimogu> What can you say about the 'Endgame' (45+ chars) for the future? At the moment there is a stop or cap for chars with level 50. What about somjething special for level 50 chars which takes a little longer to achiv?
<Keth_Turbine> In the update following the "Shores of Evendim," we are introducing a Reputation system.
<Keth_Turbine> There will be several new "factions" that you can improve your standing with.
<Keth_Turbine> increased standing will unlock unique rewards, such as access to Reputation "lodges."
<LOTRO_Tens> Additionally, we have some other "long term" plans for level 50+ advancement, but we’re keeping those under-wraps for the time being.
<Keth_Turbine> yeah, that too....

and the raids themselves will be able to be done in several sittings rather than a 6 or 8 hour marathon session.

<Faronlas> Hi Idryal, what can we expect from the first raid instance, helegrod how long will it be, minutes, hours days?
<Keth_Turbine> Well, it can take a few hours to complete, depending on how experienced your group is. (And how many times you wipe. *evil grin*)
<Keth_Turbine> Fortunately, we made some improvements to our Raid Locking system, so it should be easier to finish a wing of Helegrod and pick up the following night.
<Keth_Turbine> There will be more specifics on the changes to the Raid Locking, but rest assured, we want to give you the option to not have to do all of Helegrod in one sitting.

this is the part I find most interesting since it would make raids more palatable for me at least. I am skeptical about how practical this will be in actual practice however. What if 20 out of 24 people show up for session 2 but 4 just can't make it due to real life commitments , what happens then? Do the other 20 just pack it up and do something else or can you get 4 new additions or try and finish it with 20?

[Tairnyn]

<Keth_Turbine> In the update following the "Shores of Evendim," we are introducing a Reputation system.
<Keth_Turbine> There will be several new "factions" that you can improve your standing with.
<Keth_Turbine> increased standing will unlock unique rewards, such as access to Reputation "lodges."

After my experiences with WoW reputation this just sounds horrid. There's nothing more soul-crushing to me than realizing all the months of hard work to gain hero status must be leveraged to appease some factions who didn't get the memo on how badass I am. What disappoints me most is that I can't think of something better for endgame content. In some ways, it seems the best approach is to change the game entirely to keep it fresh and interesting. But, if the change is fun (maybe even more so) than the rest of the game the leveling process becomes a roadblock. I guess the finite nature of game content will always be doomed to have a life-cycle.

[Hound]

<Keth_Turbine> In the update following the "Shores of Evendim," we are introducing a Reputation system.
<Keth_Turbine> There will be several new "factions" that you can improve your standing with.
<Keth_Turbine> increased standing will unlock unique rewards, such as access to Reputation "lodges."

After my experiences with WoW reputation this just sounds horrid. There's nothing more soul-crushing to me than realizing all the months of hard work to gain hero status must be leveraged to appease some factions who didn't get the memo on how badass I am. What disappoints me most is that I can't think of something better for endgame content. In some ways, it seems the best approach is to change the game entirely to keep it fresh and interesting. But, if the change is fun (maybe even more so) than the rest of the game the leveling process becomes a roadblock. I guess the finite nature of game content will always be doomed to have a life-cycle.

before making "the sky is falling" assumptions why not wait and see how they are going to implement this and what it entails. I never played WoW past lvl 25 so I have not the slightest clue on how Blizzard did it on the othwer hand I am enough of a Turbine fanboy to have a bit of faith that they would not screw up the game too badly after working so hard to make the core game enjoyable. So far it looks as if they are accommodating several different play styles unlike some game companies that insist on you playing it their way or hit the highway. The more options I have the better I like it.

[Tannhauser]

My guild has already started a DKP system.  As the highest level Minstrel in the guild I am in much demand.  However a big FUCK YOU to that crap.  I'm only playing to have fun, not to get some shiny after 30 repetitions of a raid.

I did MC three times.  Three.  Because I wanted to see it and twice more because I wanted to see all of it.  If Turbine makes good raids (fun) I'll play them, otherwise no way.

[Riggswolfe]

A recent Dev chat had some discussion about raids and loot. They said in Shores of Evendum and also in future expansions that all loot, including the armor sets, will be available through raiding, crafting, questing, and even solo play. How it will work I don't know.

[Sky]

I don't understand why it's just assumed now that anything mmo needs 'end-game' and 'raids'. I see red when I'm playing a fun game and mmogtards start spewing that shit.

Because there's such a dearth of games with raids and endgames for you to waste your time with.

[Riggswolfe]

I don't understand why it's just assumed now that anything mmo needs 'end-game' and 'raids'. I see red when I'm playing a fun game and mmogtards start spewing that shit.

Because there's such a dearth of games with raids and endgames for you to waste your time with.

I completely agree. Raids are a very, very hot topic on the LOTRO forums at this time and it is only looking to get worse. Raiders are of course saying that the best gear should only be in raids, and non-raiders are saying it should be available to all even if it takes longer than a raid. This is probably the one part of LOTRO I'm fairly worried about. If the endgame devolves into Raid or go home like in WOW it'll kill this game for me.

[Tmon]

Yup, so far in every game that is raid or go home I've chosen to go home and I'm fairly certain that will be my choice if that is what LOTRO turns into.  Actually I quit the game when it starts to feel like going to work rather than recreation so I rarely even make it to end game. 

[Xanthippe]

/signed

/agreed

whatever

Yeah, if there's an end-game of raiding added, it's on to the next mmo for me.

[Phred]

/signed

/agreed

whatever

Yeah, if there's an end-game of raiding added, it's on to the next mmo for me.

They raid menu was in closed beta. Why would you sign up for a game with a raid menu then quit when they add raids?

[Tmon]

I don't care if there are raids, what I care about is if they are the only thing to do when my character hits max level.

[Hound]

Jeff Anderson had this to say about the endgame over at GamerNode. He goes on to lob a couple of rocket shells at Blizzard. I can only say that LoTRO is my first Turbine product however I really can't say that I regret buying the Lifetime sub.  If I only play off and on until AoC and WAR launch then use it as a backup game I will get my moneys worth from it.

http://gamernode.com/PC/Previews/2949-We-speak-with-Jeff-Anderson-CEO-of-Turbine-Inc/index2.html

Sorry. I also get asked the other question which is "Tell us what the end-game of Lord of the Rings Online is." And I do, right? I tell them you want raids, we got raids. You want pvp, we got pvp. You want collectible armor sets for high end content great, we got that too. You want housing, we're putting that in.

So we got...you want endgame, we got endgame. But my problem with the question, is that why the heck are you asking me about the endgame for an online product? I've been working on Asheron's Call for nearly a decade now, and we've put out 80 updates for the product. It's a constant opportunity to provide episodic content for our players. I don't subscribe to the approach which is, "Hey you know what, we'll put out a game, two years later we'll throw out an expansion pack, and by the way we've just announced we're going to do a new RTS game or whatever it is that we're going to do, so all we'll do in the meantime is pocket your money." We believe that it's almost an obligation of its own to be putting constant content out for the product.

 

[Xanthippe]

They raid menu was in closed beta. Why would you sign up for a game with a raid menu then quit when they add raids?

Well, I shouldn't say I'll quit straight out.  I'll play until I can't solo any longer, or I've tired of whatever solo content is available (assuming I don't get into the minigame of buying/selling crap).

I prefer a pvp end game to a raiding end game, is all.  I require a game to be something I can play or not play any night; a past time rather than a job, or even a hobby.  Raiding typically means spending hours with a bunch of people, not afk'ing, having to be there at a particular time for a particular amount of time, and so on.  I don't do that because I don't enjoy that.  It's on a more serious level than what I want to do.  I don't play games to have more responsibility in life; I play games to get away from my responsibilities in life.

I've already gotten my entertainment value from LOTRO, just from playing since launch.  But I don't want to live on an MMO.

[Tannhauser]

Yeah that would be better.  Instead of raids, why not content updates once every two months.  You can introduce a new area

Turbine Presents
The Ice Bay of Forochel
Quest within the icy realm of Forochel far to the north of the Shire!
Level cap raised to 51!
New parka armor sets
Hunt baby seals and humpback whales!
Player housing in the form of igloos!

And the next content update raises the cap to level 52 and so on...

[Riggswolfe]

Hunt baby seals and humpback whales!

I'll lose greenpeace faction! You have to pvp the hunters to raise it!

[Zedword]

Yup, so far in every game that is raid or go home I've chosen to go home and I'm fairly certain that will be my choice if that is what LOTRO turns into.  Actually I quit the game when it starts to feel like going to work rather than recreation so I rarely even make it to end game. 

So....why do you even bother to play MMOs?

The whole point of an MMO is to play with a large number of other players simultaneously...it sounds like you should be playing NWN or baldur's gate with an AOL chat room open in the background.

PvP games not withstanding.

I don't understand how anyone could be shocked when a MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER online game adds content designed for a MASSIVE amount of PLAYERS.

Caps make it right.

--Zedword, right is might

[Riggswolfe]

So....why do you even bother to play MMOs?

The whole point of an MMO is to play with a large number of other players simultaneously...it sounds like you should be playing NWN or baldur's gate with an AOL chat room open in the background.

This argument is so overused and tired I can't even raise the energy to respond correctly.

[Zedword]

I suppose it's hard blindly charging into the face of logic over and over, yes.

I'm not telling you what you should or should not like, but not expecting it in every game of the genre is just ignorant and/or delusional.

If you like playing playing football on a basketball court, thats fine. But don't complain when you show up at the court and everyone else is playing basketball.

--Zedword, games are designed for me and me alone

[Tmon]

Yup, so far in every game that is raid or go home I've chosen to go home and I'm fairly certain that will be my choice if that is what LOTRO turns into.  Actually I quit the game when it starts to feel like going to work rather than recreation so I rarely even make it to end game. 

So....why do you even bother to play MMOs?

Because up until I'm required to spend 5 to 8 hours straight killing trash mobs just to get to the boss I'm usually having fun.  Once I stop having fun I quit.  My theory is if I pay to play something I don't find fun I'm just being stupid.

The whole point of an MMO is to play with a large number of other players simultaneously...it sounds like you should be playing NWN or baldur's gate with an AOL chat room open in the background.

Damn I thought the whole point was to have fun.    You know the funny thing is that most of what you hear about the large numbers of other players is, "I turn off ooc and zone chat as soon as I log in.", "PUGs suck I only group with my friends.", "Fucking ninja node stealing thieves..."  I will now draw the requisite bad analogy, I like living in a city of over a million people but that doesn't mean I want them all to drop by my house for coffee.

PvP games not withstanding.

I don't understand how anyone could be shocked when a MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER online game adds content designed for a MASSIVE amount of PLAYERS.

Caps make it right.

--Zedword, right is might
[/quote]

I'm not particularly shocked that these games all devolve into raid grinds, I'm just disapointed that no designers have delivered anything better to do once you hit the level cap.  So if you like raiding then by all means enjoy those games that cater to your tastes and I will continue to do the same.

[Zedword]

I'm not particularly shocked that these games all devolve into raid grinds, I'm just disapointed that no designers have delivered anything better to do once you hit the level cap.  So if you like raiding then by all means enjoy those games that cater to your tastes and I will continue to do the same.

There are things to do, and i'm not saying games shouldn't have more than that, but they can (and should) have raids and raid like content. That is one of the main draws and retention factors, even though we all complain while going through it, of the genre.

More casual players are fickle, they come and go. The player base that delve into the more logistically complicated and time consuming portions of the game are your most loyal and steady fanbase, so even if they are a minority to overall numbers, they are the ones who will get drawn in and subscribe for years.

To not produce raid content, in a non-pvp oriented game, is to lose some of your most consistent and loyal subscriber base. Who are also more likely to spread the gospel of your game, since they spend every waking moment playing they don't have much else to talk about. That isn't changing  any time soon, so to not expect that type of content in any Grade A MMO is just silly.

So again: i'm not telling anyone what they should or should not like, but to be put off or surprised when an MMO isn't ignoring the M's in it's acronym is quite perplexing.

--Zedword, tailor made

[Tmon]

There are things to do, and i'm not saying games shouldn't have more than that, but they can (and should) have raids and raid like content.

Oddly enough I haven't been saying that games shouldn't have raids but that if they want me to stick around they need to have something else to do that I find fun.  I'm pretty sure that dedicated raiders who actually enjoy the process are a minority of any games customers but they tend to be very loud and active on the boards so they get a lot of attention.  Plus building them content is easy, I mean how many times does a raiding guild run through the major raids trying to get everyone their class specific drops so that they can move on to the next raid?

[cmlancas]

There are things to do, and i'm not saying games shouldn't have more than that, but they can (and should) have raids and raid like content.

Oddly enough I haven't been saying that games shouldn't have raids but that if they want me to stick around they need to have something else to do that I find fun.  I'm pretty sure that dedicated raiders who actually enjoy the process are a minority of any games customers but they tend to be very loud and active on the boards so they get a lot of attention.  Plus building them content is easy, I mean how many times does a raiding guild run through the major raids trying to get everyone their class specific drops so that they can move on to the next raid?

I think that it should be EQ1 Luclin style where you get Nazgul-Bane weapons that suck for everything else except appeasing the raiders. I was a raider once upon a time. I just know that there is more to games than just that now.

[Zedword]

There are things to do, and i'm not saying games shouldn't have more than that, but they can (and should) have raids and raid like content.

Oddly enough I haven't been saying that games shouldn't have raids but that if they want me to stick around they need to have something else to do that I find fun.  I'm pretty sure that dedicated raiders who actually enjoy the process are a minority of any games customers but they tend to be very loud and active on the boards so they get a lot of attention.  Plus building them content is easy, I mean how many times does a raiding guild run through the major raids trying to get everyone their class specific drops so that they can move on to the next raid?

Oddly enough, i was speaking about the sentiments held in the entire thread, not just you :)

And some people seem to believe raid content -> time to leave.

--Zedword, it's a lower case t...for time to leave

[CmdrSlack]

Some people have learned (especially from WoW, apparently) that a raid focus indicates a resulting lack of content for solo and small group players. Others feel that it leads to a lack of content for casual players (who may have interest in a group quest that is longer but not a multi-hour, pee-in-a-can affair.

Games should provide equally compelling and interesting rewards for this kind of play at the level cap, just as they should reward the people who enjoy raiding.

If some people decide to leave before being disappointed, well, a game that proves that it can balance all playstyles may see those people come back.  Too many folks have been burned too many times to exhibit a large amount of trust, even moreso at this particular forum.

[Phred]

Some people have learned (especially from WoW, apparently) that a raid focus indicates a resulting lack of content for solo and small group players. Others feel that it leads to a lack of content for casual players (who may have interest in a group quest that is longer but not a multi-hour, pee-in-a-can affair.

Games should provide equally compelling and interesting rewards for this kind of play at the level cap, just as they should reward the people who enjoy raiding.

If some people decide to leave before being disappointed, well, a game that proves that it can balance all playstyles may see those people come back.  Too many folks have been burned too many times to exhibit a large amount of trust, even moreso at this particular forum.

Ya I guess I was just curious, as the game obviously was giving the message Raids are Coming as early as beta, if you are going to leave when they appear, why sign up to begin with?

[Falconeer]

Gath Agawen (a level 35 or so dungeon) is already very long and hard, for example. It has a lot of the ingredients of a raid - the length of time needed to do it, the high chance of death, the need for player discipline - except that it only needs six people.

If you think Garth Agarwen is long and raid-ish, wait to see Fornost. I love it, but it's exhausting. Too much trash. Once you beat the first wave of trash obs, you have beaten them all and you are just wasting time until the next named.
But it's not a LotRO issue, I know. And as I said, I really like Fornost.

[Riggswolfe]

I suppose it's hard blindly charging into the face of logic over and over, yes.

I'm not telling you what you should or should not like, but not expecting it in every game of the genre is just ignorant and/or delusional.

If you like playing playing football on a basketball court, thats fine. But don't complain when you show up at the court and everyone else is playing basketball.

--Zedword, games are designed for me and me alone

Zed, you're retarded but I'm going to respond anyway. Your argument was tired the first time it was spouted on the IGN boards and it continues to be so. First off, most solo players aren't running around  in a vacuum ignoring the fact there are other people around them. They do groups sometimes. They talk in guild chat, talk to friends in-game, in ooc channels, etc. Second off, guess what? Just because you have no life and believe spending 8 hours a day in a boring farming raid is the end-all be-all doesn't make you some kind of MMO god. It doesn't make you right.

If you're going to be a nit-picker about the games titles they are all called MMORPG. Remember? How much roleplaying do you do? Why are you raiding in a game designed for RP? I mean, you can play softball on a volleyball court but that's not what it's designed for. So don't complain when you show up with your softball and everyone else is playing volleyball.

[cmlancas]

I really think that if they imp Nazgul-Bane stuff to where the raids are assaults on Dark Riders and defeating them, the raiders can be appeased at the same time the casuals can. Give out +Nazgul bane weapons and -Nazgul poison armor that is only good inside the raid. Welcome to appeasement, folks.

Or,

Why not go back to epic quests EQ-1 style (And before you flame me, read this entire damn sentence) but WITHOUT the mindless rare spawns and ridiculously stupid raid encounters. Who cringes when they hear the name Ragefire or Timorous Deep? Just make a ridiculously long quest that a casual could complete in say... four to six sessions to complete a piece of comparable epic armor to what would drop in a raid encounter. Why any MMO (That I can think of, perhaps I'm wrong) has not done this yet I cannot FATHOM as many casuals who hate the 60-70 grindfest that they have to do inside a raid instance for one freakin' piece of armor that they had to spend...you get my point...have quit because it's just not worth it. My e-peen is not enlarged due to the number of purples I have on any given character.

Riggs, I tend to agree with you, but calling someone retarded right before you try to intellectually dump on their argument just makes you sound puerile. Don't do that. Just treat the troll as what he is and nothing more.

[Zedword]

I suppose it's hard blindly charging into the face of logic over and over, yes.

I'm not telling you what you should or should not like, but not expecting it in every game of the genre is just ignorant and/or delusional.

If you like playing playing football on a basketball court, thats fine. But don't complain when you show up at the court and everyone else is playing basketball.

--Zedword, games are designed for me and me alone

Zed, you're retarded but I'm going to respond anyway. Your argument was tired the first time it was spouted on the IGN boards and it continues to be so. First off, most solo players aren't running around  in a vacuum ignoring the fact there are other people around them. They do groups sometimes. They talk in guild chat, talk to friends in-game, in ooc channels, etc. Second off, guess what? Just because you have no life and believe spending 8 hours a day in a boring farming raid is the end-all be-all doesn't make you some kind of MMO god. It doesn't make you right.

If you're going to be a nit-picker about the games titles they are all called MMORPG. Remember? How much roleplaying do you do? Why are you raiding in a game designed for RP? I mean, you can play softball on a volleyball court but that's not what it's designed for. So don't complain when you show up with your softball and everyone else is playing volleyball.

Again: I'm not telling you how you should or should not play, I think they should have small and large scale content...you're complaining they are adding raid content at all, when it is one of the defining mechanisms of the genre...which is just fucking stupid. You're complainig they aren't making the game for players like you and only like you...and you aren't that important, hate to break it to you.

Sorry you can't get into a decent guild, keep applying :(

--Zedword, but i'm important! look at me!

[Riggswolfe]

Riggs, I tend to agree with you, but calling someone retarded right before you try to intellectually dump on their argument just makes you sound puerile. Don't do that. Just treat the troll as what he is and nothing more.

I know but it felt good at the time. :) Ironically, this happened on the main LOTRO boards but it was reversed. A 56k player was whining about patch size and saying he'd quit over it. I said something to the effect of "this is very common for mmos. Get a real connection." The last part intended to be funny (I need green text over there!) and he lambasted me with the whole "I own a company and am a smart guy. You live in your mommy's basement" followed by another poster who said people with broadband are slaves to the consumer ethos and are going to destroy the planet.

I didn't have to do much at all in the thread except the one reply I made which was something like "you had good points but all your name-calling undermined any credibility you could have had."

[Riggswolfe]

Again: I'm not telling you how you should or should not play, I think they should have small and large scale content...you're complaining they are adding raid content at all, when it is one of the defining mechanisms of the genre...which is just fucking stupid. You're complainig they aren't making the game for players like you and only like you...and you aren't that important, hate to break it to you.

Sorry you can't get into a decent guild, keep applying :(

--Zedword, but i'm important! look at me!

I'm complaining because past experience has taught me that raids can turn into a downward spiral where all future content is balanced with raids in mind and dev resources get sucked up trying to create new raids. Look at WOW. The 60+ game is nothing like the 1-59 game. Turbine has said they plan to make loot and other content available to all playstyles. Which is good. If they mean it. If they don't cave to the massively whining raiders who say only they deserve the good stuff.

[cmlancas]

I suppose it's hard blindly charging into the face of logic over and over, yes.

I'm not telling you what you should or should not like, but not expecting it in every game of the genre is just ignorant and/or delusional.

If you like playing playing football on a basketball court, thats fine. But don't complain when you show up at the court and everyone else is playing basketball.

--Zedword, games are designed for me and me alone

Zed, you're retarded but I'm going to respond anyway. Your argument was tired the first time it was spouted on the IGN boards and it continues to be so. First off, most solo players aren't running around  in a vacuum ignoring the fact there are other people around them. They do groups sometimes. They talk in guild chat, talk to friends in-game, in ooc channels, etc. Second off, guess what? Just because you have no life and believe spending 8 hours a day in a boring farming raid is the end-all be-all doesn't make you some kind of MMO god. It doesn't make you right.

If you're going to be a nit-picker about the games titles they are all called MMORPG. Remember? How much roleplaying do you do? Why are you raiding in a game designed for RP? I mean, you can play softball on a volleyball court but that's not what it's designed for. So don't complain when you show up with your softball and everyone else is playing volleyball.

Again: I'm not telling you how you should or should not play, I think they should have small and large scale content...you're complaining they are adding raid content at all, when it is one of the defining mechanisms of the genre...which is just fucking stupid. You're complainig they aren't making the game for players like you and only like you...and you aren't that important, hate to break it to you.

Sorry you can't get into a decent guild, keep applying :(

--Zedword, but i'm important! look at me!

What in the batshit fuck are you talking about? Decent guild? This is by far the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. The game is 1-50, not 50-50. Christ Jesus. There is so much more to LOTRO than a raid. How the hell can you not see that? And I'm sure as shit that there are more people like Riggs than you'd like to believe. Unfortunately, your head is crammed so far up your ass that you cannot see the base of LOTRO players past yourself.

I can guarantee you that Turbine cares about the casual gamer. I can guaran-fucking-tee it. Just look at World of Warcraft; I'm sure that there must be some casual players.

By the way: "Defining Mechanism of the Genre?" What in the fuck are you talking about? It wasn't defining at all. Raiding in general (EQ1--which is where I start my argument against yours) was based off of a mechanism on Sojourn MUD. Many MUDs have it because many MUDs act like smaller scale guilds (I stole this from Yoru from a different thread -- thanks Yoru). It might be PART of the genre, but it surely doesn't define it. I'd say the defining mechanism of the genre is an online adventure with many other people that are enjoying the same experience as you are. Not raiding.

EDIT: My internet is being moronic and dropping me every five seconds + clarification.

[Zedword]

Again: I'm not telling you how you should or should not play, I think they should have small and large scale content...you're complaining they are adding raid content at all, when it is one of the defining mechanisms of the genre...which is just fucking stupid. You're complainig they aren't making the game for players like you and only like you...and you aren't that important, hate to break it to you.

Sorry you can't get into a decent guild, keep applying :(

--Zedword, but i'm important! look at me!

I'm complaining because past experience has taught me that raids can turn into a downward spiral where all future content is balanced with raids in mind and dev resources get sucked up trying to create new raids. Look at WOW. The 60+ game is nothing like the 1-59 game. Turbine has said they plan to make loot and other content available to all playstyles. Which is good. If they mean it. If they don't cave to the massively whining raiders who say only they deserve the good stuff.

I know, damn those people who put in way more time and effort than you into a genre of game based upon being a time sink getting better stuff than you. It's so stupid.

rewards are the carrots in front of us, the horses pulling along the MMO companies. The more rewards we get, the more we pull. The longer it takes us to get each particular reward, the more we pull. Changing that principle drops subscriptions, dropping subscriptions drops the bottom line. Looking for changes to a cash cow's bottom line because you don't/won't/can't put in that kind of time is a sisyphysian labor.

Love it, or more than likely hate it, raids are an integral part of the MMO dynamic. Again, look at the alternatives to production....there is a huge overhead involved in creating an online game. If you are going to put in all these complex systems for small-solo player content, that also dramatically ups your development time, and thus your overhead. Why put all that effort into systems that don't need your huge network infrastructure to support. Fiscally, those systems and design mythos make much more sense in offline or small (bnet) type multiplayer games

Love them or hate them, MMOs are first and foremost made to be addictive and time sinks...thats what pays the bills.

--Zedword, dollar dollar dollar bills ya'll