Age of Conan Beta

[cmlancas]

Daddy, daddy, come look at my hooker!

[UnSub]

Daddy, daddy, come look at my hooker!

Hold on son - let me fire up the other machine and I'll be your first john.

[Engels]

Two weeks ago I picked up a collection of Conan stories by Howard, and I'm making my way through it. So far, although Conan does have a harem of girls, they're props, not personalities. Conan is, from what (admittedly little so far) I've read, a very male world. I'm enjoying it immensely 

[Venkman]

Who was the Conan expert here? Strazos?

In my view, yea, Conan is a very male/patriarchal world. There's a few strong female prescences, but befitting the era of history about which it references, it's mostly war, land conflict and personal power growth.

[Slayerik]

Who was the Conan expert here? Strazos?

In my view, yea, Conan is a very male/patriarchal world. There's a few strong female prescences, but befitting the era of history about which it references, it's mostly war, land conflict and personal power growth.

Me.

Oh wait...that was expert, not fanboi...my bad

[Johny Cee]

Who was the Conan expert here? Strazos?

In my view, yea, Conan is a very male/patriarchal world. There's a few strong female prescences, but befitting the era of history about which it references, it's mostly war, land conflict and personal power growth.

Margalis.

[Lantyssa]

Windup.

[Venkman]

Fine. Make me look it up.

It was Stray. Here. So it's a male world right?

[Lantyssa]

Oh yes, Stray.  (Why did I think Windup?)

[Numtini]

I've always take the male/female thing as a combination of the era, Howard's mental state, and the romantic genre. Some feminists get all excited about the issue, but I don't. It's an artficact of an individual and his time.

Obviously the 30s wasn't a bastion of feminism and the feminism of the early 20th century tended to be more about essentialist gender roles and the different and superior perspective that women might bring politically. Women were "naturally" pacifistic and therefore it would benefit society in the post-WWI period to pay more attention to us. One point against women warriors right there.

That fit right into romanticism of the type manifested in Conan, which has always been a reaction against modernist notions of "civilization" and tied with the masculine side of gender essentialism. The notion that things were better when we "followed our nature" and men were men and women were absent which tends to exacerbate traditional gender roles. In this sense, John Norman's Gor might be seen as the natural successor to Conan. That or one might regard Gor as heterosexual romanticism, where Conan is almost into Tom of Finland territory with its idealization of the male.

Most of all. Howard wasn't all there. Ok not all there doesn't even start in on it, the guy was absolutely out of his mind nuts. I'd guess there was a good chance he was gay. There's no evidence of any meaningful relationship with a woman other than his mother and when she died he blew his head off leaving the following suicide note.

"All fled--all done so lift me on the pyre;
The feast is over and the lamps expire."

Can't wait for the game though.

[Margalis]

Who was the Conan expert here? Strazos?

I don't know if I'm an expert, but I've read all the Howard Conan stuff as well as the better knockoffs. (L. Sprague de Camp et al.)

The world of Conan is pretty male, although there are female adventurers. Belit, The Queen of the Black Coast, is the most famous of them, she was basically a pirate lord. Most of the women mentioned tend to be serving wenches, whores, servants, princesses, etc. All scantily clad of course.

Part of that is a function of who Conan came across. He was a thief, a fighter (dual class!), a hard drinker and had an eye for the ladies.

It's also worth pointing out that the Conan world is really not a world of adventurers. As in, there aren't many characters that amble around seeking out adventure. Most of them are normal folk or serve in some court or army, or perhaps as mercenaries. Conan himself was largely a mercenary. It isn't the kind of world like in LOTR where a bunch of disparate people team up to fight evil just because they are the good guys. There isn't a lot of heroism. Even when Conan is saving someone it's usually because there is some treasure involved or because she is hot.

Basically it's seedy. So a guild of seedy females is pretty awesome.

[Engels]

I just got to Queen of the Black Coast, and I take back what I said earlier about women not having a very good role. Sure, the Queen immediately wants to screw Conan on the spot the moment she meets him, but soon thereafter, she's calling the shots. To quote:

Conan agreed. He generally agreed to her plans. Hers was the mind that directed their raids, his the arm that carried out her ideas. It mattered little to him where they sailed or whom they fought, so long as they sailed and fought. He found life good.

Remarkably progressive for the 1930s, don't you think?

[cmlancas]

Obviously the 30s wasn't a bastion of feminism and the feminism of the early 20th century tended to be more about essentialist gender roles and the different and superior perspective that women might bring politically. Women were "naturally" pacifistic and therefore it would benefit society in the post-WWI period to pay more attention to us. One point against women warriors right there.

Uh. No. That's just completely and totally false. Let's see who/what I can rattle off: Seneca Falls (1848), Susan B. Anthony (1870s),  Edith Wharton (1900s), Virginia Woolf (1920s). That's not even close to the entirety of famous feminist authors around that period. The quote, "Women were 'naturally' pacificstic and therefore it would benefit society in the post-WWI period to pay more attention to us," had better be in green because it isn't remotely or anywhere close to accurate. Many examples in art and literature are explicating the liberated woman enough that when WWII begins and females come to dominate the war-effort labor force, there is no turning back and telling them to resume their domestic roles. As far as your "One point against women warriors right there," statement goes, you might want to check out this link to see just how incorrect you are: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norton_Anthology_of_Literature_by_Women.

Also,

That fit right into romanticism of the type manifested in Conan, which has always been a reaction against modernist notions of "civilization" and tied with the masculine side of gender essentialism.

Let's remember which came first. Modernism is a reaction against the gaudy thoughts and feelings expressed in romanticism. Hence the avant-garde tradition that is begun by the imagists and vorticists, later by cubists and form-breaking writers. You're again totally wrong here. You might start by informing yourself with Dr. R.B. Kershner's book entitled The Twentieth Century Novel: An Introduction. It'll give you a good timeline as to which literary/artistic period comes before the other so you don't sound silly. Secondly, you might recall that many of the romantics needed a "muse" to enable their writings. Yes, there are later works by Robert Browning and Dante Rosetti that completely support your argument, but I'm not sure how much I believe in it being entwined "with the masculine side of gender essentialism." Maybe only halfway. On another note, what would you consider the modernist notions of "civilization"? T.S. Eliot published "The Waste Land" in 1922 which pretty much set the pace for the modernist notion of civilization. I haven't read the Conan lore, but it sounds to me like a broken, war -torn land is pretty similar to some of the points seen in "The Waste Land."

Finally,

It's an artficact of an individual and his time.

I'm not so sure how this is an artifiact of his time. Remember that romanticism is more or less dead for about twenty to thirty years in the 1930s. If you want to read up more on the transition from romantic to modern writers, you might pick up something on Yeats.

For however wrong you might have been in your post, it made me wonder about the connections between Raymond Chandler and Robert Howard. I'm always into the pseudo-pulp and noir stuff. So sue me.

Edit: I had to have at least one typo in this post. Rawr.

[Modern Angel]

I haven't read the Conan lore

You should've led with this sentence

[cmlancas]

Don't see how it makes any difference. The points are still accurate and valid.

[Modern Angel]

You're absolutely correct if the purpose of your post was to show off that you know the beginnings of the Modernist movement in a semi-coherent screed.

You're absolutely wrong if you wanted to discuss Conan lore as it pertains to literary movements of the early 20th century since, you know, you said you're completely unfamiliar with it.

Look, Howard was an insane flat-earther with severe mommy issues and a penchant for sucking up to HP Lovecraft. He wrote purely escapist literature; vicious, racist, sexist literature but purely escapist. Conan was the fantasy HIM and that's part of the thing that makes Conan so compelling. It's a rich, varied, real feeling world because when he closed his eyes at night I've absolutely no doubt that he was seeing himself cutting a bloody swathe through crazy Africans to get the girl.

None of that is to say I dislike Conan. I fucking love Conan. But you really, really have to place it in this little corner of it's own the same way you have to with Lovecraft and some things in that corner aren't pleasant anymore than they were when Lovecraft was using codewords for his fear of Jews.

[cmlancas]

You're absolutely wrong if you wanted to discuss Conan lore as it pertains to literary movements of the early 20th century since, you know, you said you're completely unfamiliar with it.

None of that is to say I dislike Conan. I fucking love Conan. But you really, really have to place it in this little corner of it's own the same way you have to with Lovecraft and some things in that corner aren't pleasant anymore than they were when Lovecraft was using codewords for his fear of Jews.

I suppose you are right. However, I tend to go off the deep end when I see misinformed people knocking the early feminist movement. I'm perfectly okay with literature that doesn't conform to the standards of today. Is Huck Finn racist? Hell yes it is. Is The Sun Also Rises racists and slightly misogynistic? Yes. Absolutely. Do I have to stick things I don't like in little corners so I feel better about myself? No. Actually, I'm quite piqued as to what this guy has to write. Didn't you read my last sentence of my post?

[Numtini]

I suppose you are right. However, I tend to go off the deep end when I see misinformed people knocking the early feminist movement.

I'm hardly knocking the early feminist movement or feminist writing. I'm simply saying that it has absolutely nothing relevent to Conan's universe and provides no role models for the kind of characters one finds in Robert's writings. I'm pretty familiar with early 20th century women's literature and you don't find sentiments like "I live, I burn with life, I love, I slay, and am content" or "Barbarism is the natural state of mankind." (The latter, btw, is not a complaint about mankind, but is something to be celebrated in the virile naturalistic masculine violence of Conan.)

For the connection with romanticism, there he's not part of the mainstream of his time, he's a reaction against it. He's part of the romantic strain that survived the "end of romanticism." (Neo-romanticism if you will.) The same kind of individualistic naturalistic romantic strains that merge with social darwinism and in Europe end up feeding into fascism and nationalist movements. Wagner not Wordsworth.

(We should get an award for most obscure and academic thread derail ever.)

[Slayerik]

You guys lost me at feminism.

[Bokonon]

I'm interested in knowing the code words for Jews That Lovecraft used. Not that I don't believe it, but it is interesting that he married a Jew (granted, it lasted all of 2 years). Of course there are definite opinions in his stories that are racist... And he definitely was reacting against the literature of his time. He consciously wrote archaic prose because he loved it so.

What can I say about F13?  It's really my favorite website in the entire universe!  I love the irreverent banter and sly wit these keyboard jockeys produce.  And I especially love the staff, they're AWESOME.

[Vinadil]

Weren't we talking about a game at some point?  I really never expected to use that 18th Century British fiction course from college on a gaming forum... but man maybe I need to go back and look at my notes so I can take part in this Conan discussion.

[Numtini]

20th century fiction. And I think the Lovecraft stuff is more about general racism, including the Portuguese and other southern/eastern Europeans, than it is about Jews in particular.

[Johny Cee]

20th century fiction. And I think the Lovecraft stuff is more about general racism, including the Portuguese and other southern/eastern Europeans, than it is about Jews in particular.

There's a noted difference between early and late Lovecraft.  He came off as more open/tolerant in his later (post-marriage) period,  compared to the blatant xenophobia displayed in his early work.

He also had a couple stories with very negative depictions of the poor white trash living in the Catskills and the Vermont area.

[Murgos]

To be fair Lovecraft also wrote some pretty disgusting things about fellow blue-blooded New Englanders.  Cannibalism, necrophilia and bestiality all come to mind.

[Engels]

You know, when you read Nietzsche's Hammer of the Gods, its probably wise to bear in mind his descent into dementia caused by syphilis.

On the other hand, when I read Conan, its so obviously sheer pulp, with only occasional flashes of redemptive talent, that bringing to bear his mother or his suicide or him being a malcontent seem somehow an uncharitable filter through which to read his work. One thing is completely clear from reading Conan; Howard did it to have a blast. Its not serious, its not literary, and its only important because, to this day, people still are getting wicked thrills from it.

Oh, and about white males in the late 19th or early 20th century being a bit racist, I'd have to challenge the lot of you to find me some author who wasn't. You just simply couldn't be born white in that time period and somehow not be racist. There were just waaay too many preexisting cultural filters in place for any man to escape them.

[Stephen Zepp]

You guys lost me at feminism.

They had me at "scantily clad".

/duck

[Slayerik]

You guys lost me at feminism.

They had me at "scantily clad".

/duck

/highfive

[waylander]

You guys lost me at feminism.

They had me at "scantily clad".

/duck

Hellz Yeah!!

[cmlancas]

He's part of the romantic strain that survived the "end of romanticism." (Neo-romanticism if you will.) The same kind of individualistic naturalistic romantic strains that merge with social darwinism and in Europe end up feeding into fascism and nationalist movements.
(We should get an award for most obscure and academic thread derail ever.)

I have some interesting stuff you might should read on that if you're interested.

[Mrbloodworth]

You guys lost me at feminism.

They had me at "scantily clad".

/duck

I prefer the more PC: "Occasional clothing".

[SnakeCharmer]

Has there been any mention of what stage of beta this game is in?  Open beta coming up anytime soon?

[Slayerik]

Has there been any mention of what stage of beta this game is in?  Open beta coming up anytime soon?

"Technical Beta" currently. They better get the open beta by Aug 1 if they have any hopes of meeting their Oct. 30th release. I got 20 bucks on being a early december launch.

[SnakeCharmer]

Oh wow.  Technical beta, still? 

Hrm.  I'll meet your 20 bucks and say Feb 08.

[Slayerik]

Oh wow.  Technical beta, still? 

Hrm.  I'll meet your 20 bucks and say Feb 08.

I say its 07 cause they HAVE to cash in on the WoW burnouts before xmas time, way too much money floating around not to.

[Venkman]

I saw they either hit November 1 on shelf or wait until 2008. I've always felt the worst time to release a new MMO is at Christmas, when there's so much other shit to buy. MMOs are a relationship, not some crappy consumer good that gets forgotten before the bill is paid off. Imagine buying the box as a gift then the recipient seeing the fee, just when the December bills start rolling in :)

Even WoW was targeting early November, only missing it because of some last minute stuff. They were on their stress test by September.