War

[dwindlehop]

SHC has the system cap as 700.

[Fordel]

Any kind of cap is pretty damn lame. That could totally mess up the already screwed up PoS war mechanics. Want to take/defend a system? Just fill it up to capacity, no chance for retaliation!

[Krakrok]

SHC has the system cap as 700.

The people in the EVE-O thread claim CCP anticipated the battle and put in the 400 cap so it wouldn't crash the node. The "198 ships exploded in last 24 hours (124 last hour). Pilots last 30 minutes 405." numbers I took from the map at the time seem to back this up.

[MahrinSkel]

I've checked into it, the cap was 700.  BoB could have crammed the system full, there were 400-500 friendly pilots in neighbouring systems, plus at least 100 non-BoB capitals on standby.  They apparently chose to keep all but actual BoB pilots out (except for about half the capitals), blockading in nearby systems.  And apparently it never actually reached the 700 cap, the attackers chose not to use the Titan jump-bridge to bring in support ships with the capitals, and about half those capitals never finished their jump in-system.

Hmm....  I wonder, if BoB puts another POS back up on the same site, is it going to be wtfpwning late arrivals?

--Dave

[Endie]

The claim that there was nothing but a dread in that Pos is pretty lol: I thought that they would claim this as soon as I heard the attack was going to go in, and BoB alts started that before te pos popped.

The funny thing is that, even if it is true - and there is always that chance - the reaction on the SA boards is that it's hilarious, and that if it's true then they just get to go in again.

Mahrin saying that BoB deliberately kept numbers low is fist-bitingly funny, though.  These are the logged-off tian killers, after all: they don't play LV e-honor games. They did what most people who had advanced notice of such a tactical advantage would: kept ship numbers at a proportion of the cap which they thought would let them deal with a slow feed of ships.  They just thought that there would be less of a commitment to do it and damn the losses, through a second unsupported cap jump-in.  Far better to churn through the enemy a few at a time in a Stirling Bridge engagement, they thought, than have them find they can't attack at all and force CCP to remove their protection next time.

[MahrinSkel]

One thing for certain: This battle resolves nothing.  At best, both sides have taken a large hit to their materiel, of approximately equal scale.  If BoB actually did pull a fast one and that POS was a decoy or contained a lesser ship, we'll never know for certain (unless another Titan hits the field in a few days).  57 capitals are not replaced overnight in spite of the rhetoric, neither is a capital shipyard.  Neither side seems very demoralized.

--Dave

[WindupAtheist]

Cheerleading

I don't have a dog in this fight, but you're making me root for the other side.

[gimpyone]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xiUQ1soqQQ
Footage! of what I wish eve combat really looked like.

[MahrinSkel]

Cheerleading

I don't have a dog in this fight, but you're making me root for the other side.

Hey, give me a break, I'm the *only* one on my side here.

--Dave

EDIT: You know, I've gone back and re-read everything I wrote, and I don't see the cheerleading.  I'm just trying to report how things look from this side of it.  BoB could have put more numbers in and saturated the system, I didn't speculate as to why but merely pointed out the fact they didn't.  If it was a "Stirling Bridge" strategem, I would think they'd have left less headroom, but does it matter?  BoB lost a cap shipyard and won't say even to their own members what was in it, the coalition lost a whole crapload of standard capitals and says they'll replace it out of petty cash by tomorrow.  Somehow, I think neither side of it is being completely honest.

[Endie]

57 capitals are not replaced overnight in spite of the rhetoric, neither is a capital shipyard.

I don't know any more than what I've been reading on SC/SA etc, but RA and D2 are both reputed to keep very large (in the case of RA, several per cap-capable pilot) reserves of dreads.  I'd not repeat the numbers per pilot that RA are alleged to have in reserve, because it sounds ridiculously high, but it can only be explained by, oh, I dunno, several years of massive and long-term, pre-nerf complex-exploiting

I imagine we'll start getting some half-reliable info on what happened today.

[Arthur_Parker]

Linky

band of brothers shipyard destroyed: contents unknown
reported by Gabriel Fontaine | 2007.03.30 07:24:18 |

The conflict that has gripped New Eden escalated to a previously unseen level today during a coalition assault on a Band of Brothers capital shipyard in F-TE1T. An unprecedented array of capital ships were present during the attack and the Coalition lost dozens in the successful effort to take down the structure. The aftermath proved to be a salvager's dream with a wasteland of wreckage left behind and both sides claiming victory.

When the explosions cleared, BoB had lost their tower and capital yard, along with anything that may have been inside. In return, the coalition lost at least forty capital ships, with estimates ranging as high as fifty-five. Regardless of the final figures, it marks the largest number of capital ships destroyed in a single engagement in the history of New Eden.
From all available evidence the pro-BoB forces suffered zero capital ship losses during the engagement.

At first The Coalition insisted that the capital shipyard contained a titan in production, which would have been lost in the destruction of the tower. If this is true, it is the second titan that the Coalition has destroyed in such a fashion. However, it would appear that now they are backing off these claims, showing the insidious nature of this conflict where claim and counterclaim are bandied about with reckless abandon by all parties, showing how imperative it is to win the PR battle as much as the actual one.

Nevvyn, a representative of Dusk and Dawn Alliance, acknowledges the substantial capital losses, but also made it very clear that "the target was the POS, anything else was strictly secondary." According to him, significant losses were expected and prepared for. He refused to comment on The Coalition's next move, and when asked for a statement, replied that the actions in F-TE1T spoke loud enough.

On the subject of today's plans, Nevvyn was more forthcoming, saying: "Very simply, both sides formed up well in advance, the target system of F-TE1T had been full of 150-200 hostile pod pilots since the early evening. Steps had been taken to prevent our entry into the system, although we had secured our entry well in advance."

A single warp disruption field had been placed at the POS which upset The Coalition's idea for a rapid exit, Nevvyn explained: "The plan itself was simple, jump in, engage the pos, destroy it, and then get out. Hit and Run tactics if you wish. The first part of the plan went exactly as intended, thanks to the skill, dedication and professionalism of our pod pilots. However, it seems that there were technical difficulties with the jump gates leading into F-TE1T and also with the jump portal on Emily (The D2 Titan), despite our best efforts, when it came to the "run" part, we could not get our support into system."

Concluding the outcome from The Coalition's point of view, Nevvyn was succinct: "The plan was executed well, the goal was achieved, the POS died. In the Capital Ship Assembly Array, we believe there was a Titan class ship building. As with everything, gaining intelligence about the opposition is not always an exact science, and it seems the opposition have taken appropriate steps to ensure that we cannot verify our claim."

On the other side of the conflict, Shrike, BoB Avatar pilot and close friend of SirMolle, remains confident saying: "The Coalition is now on its knees without a capital fleet. The train has hit a brick wall. They just rolled the dice, off the table in a wild gamble. I hope they think the gamble was worth it because now they don't have a backbone."

To give an idea of the scale of the engagement Shrike added: "We had about 2000 pilots involved tonight in various ops all over, all for the purpose of killing the capital fleet. And the capital fleet is dead."

Meanwhile, the war continues on. Seleene, executor of the Mercenary Coalition (MC), also granted IC an interview after the battle. The MC has openly acknowledged that it is under contract from the Band of Brothers and is assisting them in the war effort, and dozens of MC ships were present in the area of F-TE1T during the fight. According to Seleene, MC's current focus is to combine forces with BoB allies in order to achieve 'short-term goals'. She refused to go into details with regard to what these goals were.

Summing up the battle, Seleene added an interesting point of view to events, saying: "While it's true The Coalition succeeded in their goal tonight, no group can sustain those sort of losses over and over again simply to eliminate one target."

Sesfan Qu'lah of Goonfleet insisted: "(Our) morale is absolutely fine, most of us didn't even get to fight and we want another chance. Titans are so powerful that nobody can afford not to attack them while they're building."

The strike represents a huge gamble on the part of The Coalition, but with a very large potential payoff. As Sesfan indicated, his side could not ignore the opportunity although responding to claims the losses had derailed operations, Nevvyn stated: "The war is still very much growing, a very slow but relentless movement."

In the end, the deciding factor of the victor in the battle comes down to what was really building inside that tower's capital array. As of the writing of this article, there has been no definitive confirmation by any party of what, if anything, was inside. The capsuleer community is forced to wait for BoB to divulge that knowledge, and if sources prove accurate, the much-anticipated answer will be coming within the next few days from BoB's leadership.

Whether or not this battle will prove to be a turning point, remains to be seen, it is, however, destined to go down as one of the most memorable in New Eden history.

Well it was fun while it lasted but it appears the Coalition don't have a backbone or a capital fleet anymore. 

[Wolf]

tbh I love how Molle speaks. He doesn't care if he comes out as an asshole or an arrogant prick.

And Mahrin please don't stop writting updates from your POV, they help put the big picture together. I for one enjoy them. But what do I know, I'm just a bob fanboi 

[Endie]

And Mahrin please don't stop writting updates from your POV, they help put the big picture together.

I totally agree.  It's not just that I'm interested to see how someone Bob-aligned (Note that I didn't call Fix slaves, renters, bobalts or anything else there!) rationalises the same events: I also pick up a lot of stuff on big-ship stuff at the same time.

[Simond]

Well it was fun while it lasted but it appears the Coalition don't have a backbone or a capital fleet anymore. 

It's going to be funny watching the next news item about the war - "OK, ignore what we said last time - this time we destroyed all of their capital ships for sure!"

[Morat20]

I don't know any more than what I've been reading on SC/SA etc, but RA and D2 are both reputed to keep very large (in the case of RA, several per cap-capable pilot) reserves of dreads.  I'd not repeat the numbers per pilot that RA are alleged to have in reserve, because it sounds ridiculously high, but it can only be explained by, oh, I dunno, several years of massive and long-term, pre-nerf complex-exploiting

I imagine we'll start getting some half-reliable info on what happened today.

If they have a reserve of dreads, fine -- but now they've dipped rather heavily into it, which means they can't afford victories like that too often. If BoB lost a fetal Titan, same deal.

Dreads -- even if you got all the ISK in the world -- take time to cook, and need to cook in targetable structures -- and the longer the war goes on, the more expensive each replacement dread is going to be.

I suspect the best way to find out who really came out on top is to watch the events of the next few weeks.

My personal thought was: In terms of morale, it was a pretty big victory for the Coalition. Doesn't matter whether a Titan was cooking or not -- they'll believe it, and it'll boost morale and give them a sense of victory. That's pretty important. In terms of ISK or actual strategic positioning --  if a Titan was cooking, it was a wash in terms of ISK and probably a slight BoB victory in terms of positioning (IF they manage to take advantage of coalition's losses). If a Titan wasn't cooking, clear BoB win in terms of cash and positioning.

[Endie]

Dreads -- even if you got all the ISK in the world -- take time to cook, and need to cook in targetable structures -- and the longer the war goes on, the more expensive each replacement dread is going to be.

I've not an industrialist - again I defer to comic shop guy - but I'm sure dreads can build in a low-sec factory slot.  Building more, if "you got all the ISK in the world"*, is safe.  And they insure, which matters a lot more when you're doing a suicide op like this, fitted with T1 stuff.

*cf D2 and complex-kings RA

[Simond]

I've not an industrialist - again I defer to comic shop guy - but I'm sure dreads can build in a low-sec factory slot.  Building more, if "you got all the ISK in the world"*, is safe.

Yup. As long as you have access to a low sec factory station and enough cash/raw materials, you can churn out dreads (& carriers) until the cows come home.

  And they insure, which matters a lot more when you're doing a suicide op like this, fitted with T1 stuff.

Yup. A fully-insured T1-fitted dread works out (very) roughly to about a 1billion isk loss...which is a lot of cash, but significantly less than a T2 or officer fitted dread (which tend to be uninsured as you don't plan to lose them) or a supercapital loss.

[Slayerik]

In my corp (industrialists and PVPers), we had been asked (a few weeks ago) to build 10 dreads for a mid sized coalition alliance. Imagine that each of the coalitions mid sized alliances have deals like these, and then throw in what the biggest players are producing and it has to be a little disheartening to be a BoB. I saw a spreadsheet about the number of Goonies capital pilots (kind of a time table) and that was pretty ridiculous.

Bob somehow just has to keep this at a stalemate and keep blowing up ships. I think the longer it goes on the worse off they are, and all the pressure of being sieged for so long stops the game from being fun. But if the coalition truely wavers they are done.

STAY ZE COURSE NOOBS! :)

[Yoru]

Wish I'd invested in minerals right before this; I imagine the price of trit is going to go through the roof again.

[Furiously]

I was just thinking the cost of money should start going up fairly soon. Now might be the time to sell your gamecards.

[tmp]

Mahrin saying that BoB deliberately kept numbers low is fist-bitingly funny, though.  These are the logged-off tian killers, after all: they don't play LV e-honor games.

He's telling truth. At the time coalition ships started to bridge into the F-T system the bulk of BoB support fleet was in the "blockade system" next door. They went there 20 minutes earlier to keep coalition support fleet of similar size from entering the shipyard system from what I hear/read in the battle summary thread. I figure with number of capital ships they had in the system BoB command saw it a sensible tactic, as that would mean their own dreads would be less lagged while shooting coalition capital ships, meaning more kills before shipyard death. I.e. nothing to do with e-honor, but simple calculation. It's not like support ships are of much use when most of them can be wiped out with single DD.

Some complain about supposed stealth population cap, but it's more sensible to chalk that up to lag combined with titan bridge mechanics -- titan bridge lasts for 1 minute or so, and the lag in F-T is reported to be anywhere between 10-30 minutes. Which could mean once the initial coalition force entered the system, things became too laggy to squeeze more people in -- the bridge to destination would no longer exist by the time destination node was ready to receive ships trying to jump. A very different situation from earlier attack on LV titan shipyard, where attackers used regular jump gate, something that never goes away even if it takes hour or more to get through.

[JoeTF]

SirMolle admitted losing Leviatan class titan....

...then he posted fake screenies to prove it

[tmp]

SirMolle admitted losing Leviatan class titan....

...then he posted fake screenies to prove it

On April 1st, no less.

In another part of EVE (system P-2TTL in Pure Blind, northern area of the map) there was apparently large battle between D2 + allies and MC/YouWhat forces. Multiple motherships and a handful of capital ships were used together with lots of regular ships. Eventually D2 withdrew, having lost 5 capital ships and 60+ battleships. Losses on MC side were large number of automated fighter drones (quite expensive) and few battleships.

[Endie]

Re the titan thing, I for one am happy to admit that I am no wiser, after several days, as to what happened to whom, nor how.  I would be unsurprised to find that there had been no titan in the PoS.  I would be only marginally less surprised to find that there had been.  Evil Thug, Molle, the Mittani and more have all said both that there was and that there was not, some on April 1st.  I await some masterstroke from GIA, or some extra DD from BoB, with no real clue as to which.

 

[Comstar]

Molle posted today the POS was empty and the OTHER POS in the system just finished building a mothership.

Ugh.

What's Goonswawm doing these days? They seem to have dissapered off the galactic war map.

[Endie]

Yes, but he would say that, wouldn't he?

And GS have probably been absent due to their directorate having been at the meet in Boston.

[Wolf]

Hippoking from Goonswarm confirmed that it was empty. He said that he knew from a Mittani post on the goons' forums. lol is all I can say atm :)

[Morat20]

From what I've pieced together, it appears the Coalition has admitted:

1) They lost 50+ dreads to blow up a POS that was -- as it now turns out -- cooking a Mothership.
2) They blew up the wrong POS.

Um, net win for BoB there. I'm sure it's the Devs fault. :)

[Endie]

Um, net win for BoB there. I'm sure it's the Devs fault. :)

Not the devs' fault, at least as far as SA forum opinion goes.  The very latest post in the relevant thread as I write is, for instance:

As bad as it was though this whole thing is pretty damn hilarious.

[MahrinSkel]

I kind of expected this.  BoB was acting the way I would have expected if the whole thing was a ruse, especially with the public TS meltdown by RKK leadership when the POS went down, which was *very* out of character.  When they held off on saying what was in the POS, refusing to say anything at all, I figured the highest probability was that another shoe was going to drop in a few days.  But speculating publicly about it would just have screwed it up, or increased the embarassment if I was wrong and there had been something in it.

Just goes to show, a spy you know about can be as much of an asset for you as for the enemy.

--Dave

[Morat20]

Um, net win for BoB there. I'm sure it's the Devs fault. :)

Not the devs' fault, at least as far as SA forum opinion goes.  The very latest post in the relevant thread as I write is, for instance:

I should have posted that in green. You know, whole Band of Developers? BoB only wins cuz Devs cheat? It was kind of a little dig at that.

[WindupAtheist]

I'll betcha if BoB manages to win this war, nobody will ever bother fighting them again.  I mean they can win completely on the up-and-up through organizational brilliance, and thousands of sore losers are just going to say that nobody beats the developer's pet alliance.  And thanks to the company's utterly buttfucked and stupid response to actual developer interference, way too many people would end up believing it.

[Comstar]

Both answers are right.

If BoB wins no one will fight them in organized conventional warfare again because of their strengths in PvP and logistics. This is as big as opposing force as you'll ever get with the south east + North all fighting BoB. If numbers and total sizes of alliance can't beat BoB, no one else ever will, beyond BoB imploding from within. And I'd say BoB will only implode *after* everyone else has givin up, and it will for a lack of targets and boredom.

'Corse, one of the many reasons BoB GOT to be so strong in the first place is developer influence. Even taken away (and T20 *rejoined* them at least once already before getting exposed *again*) from them now it gave them a boost other players did not, and never will now, get. The amount of power and wealth they get from being givin Delve comes from that. 

[ajax34i]

If BoB wins no one will fight them in organized conventional warfare again because of their strengths in PvP and logistics.

I think BoB will be forgotten, along with everything else about this game, a lot sooner than you imagine.  What's the difference between e-peen and "building reputation within a game"?  In my opinion, only those who are way too involved within EVE give a damn.

I think this war is happening so that the accumulated wealth (in the form of stockpiled minerals) gets taken out of the game, with CCP controlling both sides, driving them to keep at it until resources are depleted.

[Fordel]

BoB really can't win, or the 0.0 game is basically Toast. 0.0 is already pretty retarded as it is with barrier to entry and how xenophobic (is that the word I'm looking for?) it makes the people in 0.0 already. In the past two years, the only new blood in 0.0 is Goonfleet and if the requirement to gain a foothold in that area of game play is a pre-existing community of tens of thousands? /shrug

If BoB can beat off most of the 0.0 universe at once, then what chance do any of the individual alliances have against them? It's already been shown time and again BoB can dismantle single 0.0 alliances at will. Pretty much why the whole deal is going down to begin with, if not Ra+Goons+D2+Friends now, then who and when?