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Author Topic: War  (Read 1952898 times)
Wolf
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Posts: 1248


Reply #70 on: February 16, 2007, 02:08:20 PM

Morat, It's even more lame. If I get everything correctly the exact timeline was this:

1) Erebus pilot says to corp "Gonna log off now" and exits POS shields (why? No idea. Pic I posted earlier proves it).
2) Spy in Covert Ops ship decloaks and MWDs right for him at 2k/s. (again judging by the pic I posted. He's with engaged MWD and at full speed)
3) He doesn't even target him - while the Erebus is alligning to warp to safe the spy hits him with a Micro Smartbomb (you _do not need_ to target someone to hit him with a smart bomb. You just have to be in range) -- which doesn't even register on the Titan's shields (virtually no damage).
4) Titan Pilot logs out.
5) BoB warps in, kills Titan.

Everything else you said about running tanks, etc is very much valid.

As a matter of fact I swallowed one of these about two hours ago and the explanation is that it is, in fact, my hand.
Nija
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2136


Reply #71 on: February 16, 2007, 02:12:54 PM

Note to self:

When flying a $10,000 spaceship, have someone follow me to the safe spot and tell me over teamspeak that I have logged out successfully.

Or have an alt on another account at the safespot so you can check yourself. An alt SPECIFICALLY for verifying logouts. Name him 'lawn jockey' or something clever.
Morat20
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Posts: 18529


Reply #72 on: February 16, 2007, 02:16:03 PM

Morat, It's even more lame. If I get everything correctly the exact timeline was this:

1) Erebus pilot says to corp "Gonna log off now" and exits POS shields (why? No idea. Pic I posted earlier proves it).
2) Spy in Covert Ops ship decloaks and MWDs right for him at 2k/s. (again judging by the pic I posted. He's with engaged MWD and at full speed)
3) He doesn't even target him - while the Erebus is alligning to warp to safe the spy hits him with a Micro Smartbomb (you _do not need_ to target someone to hit him with a smart bomb. You just have to be in range) -- which doesn't even register on the Titan's shields (virtually no damage).
4) Titan Pilot logs out.
5) BoB warps in, kills Titan.

Everything else you said about running tanks, etc is very much valid.
If he logged out inside the POS's shields, he'd have logged back in to find that POS under seige. Which makes it even lamer -- any corp with the scratch to have even a decent capital ship fleet, much less a Titan, knows it's got spies. Which is why he won't log out inside a POS, lest the spy inform his enemies where the Titan is so they can seige the place and blow it up.

So they warp off to the middle of nowhere and log there. But he doesn't assume the corp is inflitrated when he goes to log, so he doesn't even look up in the upper right hand corner for the bright aggression timer clock countdown.

Krakrok: Given the power of Titans, that is one of their drawbacks. They cannot dock for a reason. This was a very clever hit, in EVE terms. There were a lot of things he could have done to prevent this -- including just glancing at his screen. He screwed up, BoB was very clever and killed a Titan -- they had to burn an agent to do it, but they did it.

If he'd even activeated his tank before he logged, he would have been able to get back to the Titan and flee. I can't imagine why he didn't -- it costs nothing in that situation.
TheDreamr
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Reply #73 on: February 16, 2007, 02:20:11 PM

Losing a titan has to hurt, but losing a titan like that must really burn.   However you can't help but admire the logic of someone who engineered a scheme like that - it all relies on legitimate game mechanics and co-ordinated tactics so there's no "grey area" involved.

If they'd gone with the "cheap tactic" route of using a wreck to cause the aggression it would have been an exploit and the loss eventually replaced by CCP.    Instead they took the existing tactic of using a covert ops probe ships as they leave the safety of a POS, and came up with something relatively clever.

edit button addict.
Morat20
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Posts: 18529


Reply #74 on: February 16, 2007, 02:25:44 PM

Losing a titan has to hurt, but losing a titan like that must really burn.   However you can't help but admire the logic of someone who engineered a scheme like that - it all relies on legitimate game mechanics and co-ordinated tactics so there's no "grey area" involved.

If they'd gone with the "cheap tactic" route of using a wreck to cause the aggression it would have been an exploit and the loss eventually replaced by CCP.    Instead they took the existing tactic of using a covert ops probe ships as they leave the safety of a POS, and came up with something relatively clever.
It's about the only way to kill Titans, really -- what was really stupid was him flying off unescorted like that. The system was full of allies. Solo Titans are vulnerable, especially if they've already fired their big gun.

If you can coax them to shoot, I can think of a few things you can do that might kill them -- assuming you can keep reinforcements away. It looked like the BoB fleet was actually prepared for him to still be there -- or come back quickly. I suspect their plan was simple: Warp in, hit the Titan with every Nos they can slap on, and hope by the time he realizes he's under attack that he won't have enough juice to fire his big gun or run his tank long enough for help to arrive.

Even if he'd realized what was happening and not logged, he might still have died -- depends on how quick they could have slapped on the Nos' and how much cap it took to warp.
Wolf
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Reply #75 on: February 16, 2007, 02:31:53 PM

Actually the russians almost got Molle's Avatar the other day. They always have 20+ capitals waiting one cyno away from hostilities, they managed to bump him and warp in a lot of dreads and their mom and started hitting him and nosed him enough so he couldn't cyno out. Actually managed to scratch his armor, but BoB sacrifised two carriers that jumped in and Capital Cap Trasnfer Array'ed him to 80% cap and he jumped out.

So it is possible to kill a titan. Really hard though.

Man I'm really whoring this thread. Interesting stuff like this never happens while I'm at work :(

As a matter of fact I swallowed one of these about two hours ago and the explanation is that it is, in fact, my hand.
Morat20
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Reply #76 on: February 16, 2007, 02:34:40 PM

Actually the russians almost got Molle's Avatar the other day. They always have 20+ capitals waiting one cyno away from hostilities, they managed to bump him and warp in a lot of dreads and their mom and started hitting him and nosed him enough so he couldn't cyno out. Actually managed to scratch his armor, but BoB sacrifised two carriers that jumped in and Capital Cap Trasnfer Array'ed him to 80% cap and he jumped out.

So it is possible to kill a titan. Really hard though.

Man I'm really whoring this thread. Interesting stuff like this never happens while I'm at work :(
Someone else lost a mothership today -- don't recall who, but the pilot said it was quite the fair kill.
Fordel
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Reply #77 on: February 16, 2007, 02:37:40 PM

Quote
So they warp off to the middle of nowhere and log there. But he doesn't assume the corp is inflitrated when he goes to log, so he doesn't even look up in the upper right hand corner for the bright aggression timer clock countdown.


That timer was flakey when they first put it in, often just showing the wrong amount of time left if at all. I wouldn't be surprised if it was still half broken to this day. I'm half certain its even in the EVE knowledgebase, about how the timer can be wrong due to XYZ circumstances etc.



and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Wolf
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Reply #78 on: February 16, 2007, 02:38:43 PM

Quote
Someone else lost a mothership today -- don't recall who, but the pilot said it was quite the fair kill.


http://www.mercenarycoalition.com/killboard/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=27227

http://img260.imageshack.us/my.php?image=helendownxg4.jpg

I'm guessing that's the one? Crazy killmail  :-D

(Woah, they had 78 Capitals hitting that mom - http://bbs.eve-china.com/attachments/month_0702/78_capitals_wohgZEMW5gFP.jpg). Ok I'm really stopping the whorage now. Off to bed with me, I'll read up tommorow :)
« Last Edit: February 16, 2007, 02:43:01 PM by Wolf »

As a matter of fact I swallowed one of these about two hours ago and the explanation is that it is, in fact, my hand.
Krakrok
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Reply #79 on: February 16, 2007, 02:48:47 PM

Killing someone who isn't online isn't clever. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200.
Nija
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Reply #80 on: February 16, 2007, 03:05:55 PM

Killing someone who isn't online isn't clever. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200.

Tagging him as he logs out in order to keep his ship and his character in game is clever. It was a very well executed plan.
Fordel
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Reply #81 on: February 16, 2007, 04:10:12 PM

Killing someone who isn't online isn't clever. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200.

Tagging him as he logs out in order to keep his ship and his character in game is clever. It was a very well executed plan.


While entirely true, it doesn't make it less lame. Then again EVE is full of playing to win at any cost, so meh. That's just how the game rolls. Be it this, or logoffski, or spying and whatever new metagame is being played.


Still would've preferred to see the ship go down guns a blazing or something similar.

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
ajax34i
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Reply #82 on: February 16, 2007, 04:28:34 PM

It wouldn't have happened; the Titan pilot would have tried to jump out or somehow avoid the fight, rather than make a "guns blazing" last stand as you imagine.

The situation is similar to the whole issue with instajump bookmarks, back before we had warp bubbles and whatnot.  Poor game design results in black-and-white situations, either you have 100% invulnerability and the ability to escape, or you have 0% chance.  Had the Titans been vulnerable to electronic warfare, BoB wouldn't have had to resort to this sort of stuff to kill one.  Of course, BoB's titans would have been equally vulnerable, but that's besides the point.  Probably the end result would have been that no one would have build any Titans, due to them being too big of a loss risk.

Meh.
Evangolis
Contributor
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Reply #83 on: February 16, 2007, 06:46:03 PM

If a PvP tactic revolves around creating a PvN situation, that tactic indicates your PvP design is broken.  The point, after all, is to fight players, and fighting empty assets is carebear beyond PvE.

"It was a difficult party" - an unexpected word combination from ex-Merry Prankster and author Robert Stone.
Morat20
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Reply #84 on: February 16, 2007, 07:19:19 PM

If a PvP tactic revolves around creating a PvN situation, that tactic indicates your PvP design is broken.  The point, after all, is to fight players, and fighting empty assets is carebear beyond PvE.
PvP tactics versus supercapital ships are to catch them away from their support fleet. It's a flaw in Titan design that requires this sort of attack, although as I said before -- even had he not logged off, there was a fair chance BoB might have taken him down. Would have lost a lot of ships in the process, but they were loaded to drain his cap, keep him in place, and kick his ass.

I suspect they weren't counting on the guy actually being fooled. Hoping, yes. But with the ships they brought, and the loadout they had -- if the guy wasn't fooled, they had a suprisingly good shot at nailing his ass to the floor and killing him before help could arrive. When a Titan pilot goes to log off is pretty much the only time a Titan is generally away from his fleet.
Evangolis
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Reply #85 on: February 16, 2007, 08:28:14 PM

I'm not disagreeing with what you said, I'm saying that design that promotes waiting for someone to log off, or attempt to do so, is bad PvP design.

"It was a difficult party" - an unexpected word combination from ex-Merry Prankster and author Robert Stone.
Strazos
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Reply #86 on: February 17, 2007, 02:45:52 AM

Sorry, but I still don't see how Logoffski is a valid tactic - it's totally an abuse of the login mechanics.

Fear the Backstab!
"Plato said the virtuous man is at all times ready for a grammar snake attack." - we are lesion
"Hell is other people." -Sartre
Comstar
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Reply #87 on: February 17, 2007, 05:37:20 AM

AFIAK there was no aggression timer to *See*, so unless he noticed a 1 point hit to his 10000 point shield, you'd never know. If he'd pressed escape, he'd never even see that.

Prediction: CCP adds in a  visable aggression timer *AND* a warning if you log out before hand.

The plan was well thought out, well timed and well exacuted. It is a lame plan. Killing enemy Titans when they log off is a lame idea. it works, but is lame.

Prediction: Someone does a DDOS attack to offline a Titan at some point. The plan will be well thought out, well timed and well exacuted. This does not make any better either.

IAC lost a mothership, because a)lag: it was warped and IN a POS on the motherships pilots view, while still getting shot by the LV gang and b)I suspect the unsuported mothership pilot was being an ass and trying to take down a fleet big enough to kill it anyway.


So, if you want to take down enemy super capatil ships in EvE, cause enough lag to allow you to do it, or B) do it when the Titan pilot is already offline. Once again, CCP shows they havn't thought things through to thier logical conclusion.

Defending the Galaxy, from the Scum of the Universe, with nothing but a flashlight and a tshirt. We need tanks Boo, lots of tanks!
Wolf
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Reply #88 on: February 17, 2007, 09:46:22 AM

Evil Thug from Against All Authorities has an Erebus. MC are back home and fighting -A-

As a matter of fact I swallowed one of these about two hours ago and the explanation is that it is, in fact, my hand.
Yoru
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the y master, king of bourbon


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Reply #89 on: February 17, 2007, 11:17:56 AM

AFIAK there was no aggression timer to *See*, so unless he noticed a 1 point hit to his 10000 point shield, you'd never know. If he'd pressed escape, he'd never even see that.

You mean like the big red or yellow text in the upper right corner of your screen that says "Aggression Countdown"?
Evangolis
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Reply #90 on: February 17, 2007, 01:01:43 PM

How do you know that was present?  It is quite conceivable that there might be a bug in the warning display under unusual conditions.

"It was a difficult party" - an unexpected word combination from ex-Merry Prankster and author Robert Stone.
Ratadm
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Reply #91 on: February 17, 2007, 02:13:43 PM

Yellow warning is only from npc's and red is only global criminal countdown which shows up only, I think, if you agress somebody in low sec (ie not 0.0) and definitely not if you're the one being agressed anywhere.   Neither of which would be relevant to this guy.
tmp
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POW! Right in the Kisser!


Reply #92 on: February 17, 2007, 03:16:59 PM

I suspect they weren't counting on the guy actually being fooled. Hoping, yes. But with the ships they brought, and the loadout they had -- if the guy wasn't fooled, they had a suprisingly good shot at nailing his ass to the floor and killing him before help could arrive. When a Titan pilot goes to log off is pretty much the only time a Titan is generally away from his fleet.
According to the guy who "tagged" the titan, it was done "just in case" -- he didn't actually know for sure the pilot would log off soon after, at that point. Was a presumption he acted upon as the titan just finished bridging D2 capital fleet to their base POS. Which is by the way why it was outside the POS shields.

Had it not loged off, they were quite prepared to try and drop their capital fleet on top of it and try to kill it in front of D2's assorted 20+ dreads and carriers. But it did log off, so it ended the way it did.
Simond
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Reply #93 on: February 17, 2007, 03:55:52 PM

Chowdown (LV Titan pilot) needs to aim better.  :-D

"You're really a good person, aren't you? So, there's no path for you to take here. Go home. This isn't a place for someone like you."
Yoru
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Reply #94 on: February 17, 2007, 04:26:38 PM

For those playing the Home Game, F13 is no longer wardecced. The "mercs" must've gotten bored or something as they didn't pay the war fee.

Victoly!  :-D
Fordel
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Reply #95 on: February 18, 2007, 02:55:21 PM

Sorry, but I still don't see how Logoffski is a valid tactic - it's totally an abuse of the login mechanics.


It most certainly is, but by CCP's own admissions, they can't detect/enforce it. So it's "legit" if you are playing to win at any cost. Same with what happend to D2's titan. The aggression timer intention was to prevent people from ditching in the middle of combat, so I can't just CTD when I hit structure to save my ship. I can almost guarantee Plinking someone for practically non detectable dmg to keep them in game when they were logging for the day wasn't part of the original design of the aggression timer, but it's another one of those situations where enforcing or selecting what is legit and what isn't is very difficult.


In the end, it is still, extremely lame.

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
JoeTF
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Reply #96 on: February 18, 2007, 03:38:17 PM

Logoffski is valid in a sense that there is no other alternative.
Face it combat in EVE is crap and is going to be even crappier (read newest blog from that "many people like it, but it's not the way I feel EVE should be" Tuxford retard) binary win-die.
In ol' good times,you at least had the hope, the chance f getting to the gate/warp out before that frigate got to you. Now, it's simple bubble->dead, no_bubble->alive. Same goes with getting webbed for most cases and it is a known fact that 90% fights are won before they even started.
The moment you engage, or get webbed, or land in a bubble, there is nothing you can do. High speed ceptors duels, were only exception, but as
Mr. Tux says "EVE is not about twitch movement".
If CCP removed logoffski (and it could be easily done), gate camps would become unstoppable, high-speed killmail factories.

In this light, D2 titan kill is an excellent game mechanic - since victim had tons of options he could do (from having someone to cover his as, to simply leaving his tank working). Compare with recent LV Titan-in-production loss: Goons delibrately killed the node and instantly filled it with their own ships - LV simply coud not log back and all they could do was looking at login screen while their titan died.
Morat20
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Reply #97 on: February 18, 2007, 04:10:27 PM

In this light, D2 titan kill is an excellent game mechanic - since victim had tons of options he could do (from having someone to cover his as, to simply leaving his tank working). Compare with recent LV Titan-in-production loss: Goons delibrately killed the node and instantly filled it with their own ships - LV simply coud not log back and all they could do was looking at login screen while their titan died.
*snort*. That's one view of it. One could also say that LV decided to crash the node by planting a thousand T1 drones there -- in a node they knew was about have a few hundred ships drop into. You can't tell me T1 drones were part of the LV defenses -- not when they were already outnumbered 2 to 1.

Unfortunately for LV, their relog instructions were a bit stupid -- and the Goons got back on first. Of course, the Goons knew it was coming -- they'd send in a way of ships to clear out fighters and noticed what was going on.

Even had CCP had their shit together and had the node on Jita-size hardware before the battle, none of the CCP structure can handle 1200 ships PLUS every drone LV could place there. 1200 ships, maybe.

It doesn't matter anyways -- Goons had overwhelming force in any case. They had twice the numbers, and a hell of a lot more BS's and capital ships. LV didn't have a chance in hell other than to crash the node -- which failed. Goons didn't need to crash it.
Fordel
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Reply #98 on: February 18, 2007, 05:09:25 PM

The game just can't cope with the scale of combat being tossed around these days.


The Goons node crashing power was them just showing up. Going to fault them for high participation?

LV deploying drones isn't much worse either in that regard. Drones screaming around the battlefield should be a part of fleet combat, can't fault them for wanting to use them.



EVE was designed around fleet battles of 20-30 odd ships, but the norm seems to be 200+ ships these days.

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
ajax34i
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Reply #99 on: February 18, 2007, 07:48:57 PM

And why is that the norm?  Is it simply the avg. size of the corps, or is it some game mechanic?
tmp
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POW! Right in the Kisser!


Reply #100 on: February 18, 2007, 08:50:32 PM

And why is that the norm?  Is it simply the avg. size of the corps, or is it some game mechanic?
Game mechanics nowadays to considerable degree. The territory conquest revolves around sieging and defending player structures which take large number of capital ships to grind through amount of HP they have in reasonable time. 10-20 capital ships mean heavy money investment, so they are protected with support force that can easily reach hundred pilots. In order to stand good chance to engage and defeat such force, the enemy needs to bring similar numbers (and frequently more for the upper hand). At this point number of pilots in system hits 300-400 or more, and it's simply lag vs everyone else.
angry.bob
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Reply #101 on: February 19, 2007, 12:03:24 AM

Game mechanics nowadays to considerable degree. The territory conquest revolves around sieging and defending player structures which take large number of capital ships to grind through amount of HP they have in reasonable time. 10-20 capital ships mean heavy money investment, so they are protected with support force that can easily reach hundred pilots. In order to stand good chance to engage and defeat such force, the enemy needs to bring similar numbers (and frequently more for the upper hand). At this point number of pilots in system hits 300-400 or more, and it's simply lag vs everyone else.

What a godawful pain to arrange.

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muß man schweigen.
Merusk
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Reply #102 on: February 19, 2007, 04:28:53 AM

Yes, which is why I laughed when people groused about having to deal with 40 people in WoW. 

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
5150
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Reply #103 on: February 19, 2007, 04:42:56 AM

Yellow warning is only from npc's and red is only global criminal countdown which shows up only, I think, if you agress somebody in low sec (ie not 0.0) and definitely not if you're the one being agressed anywhere.   Neither of which would be relevant to this guy.

Correct - the countdown only appears when in empire space and not 0.0

Also the actual timer is more than 15mins, I haven't timed it yet but it's nearer 20/25mins before your ship finally leaves the game (so now I believe Cyvok did wait out the full 15mins and not 13ish mins as BOB claimed)

If you want you can test this by you and a corp mate shoot each other at the same time in empire and one of you log out - the one who stays in bring up the directional scanner and set it to full distance (just fill the box with 9's) and set to 360 degrees. You will see your corp mates ship (ask what his ship is called beforehand!) on the scanner well after the 15min timer ends.

All you'd need then is some probes.....
Ironwood
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Reply #104 on: February 19, 2007, 05:47:32 AM

Some of those ship names are genius.

The Anna Nicole Smith being destroyed was a nice touch....

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
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