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Author Topic: War  (Read 2008526 times)
Simond
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Reply #35 on: February 10, 2007, 01:11:55 PM

In fact, it's slowly happening now; there's only a few 0.0 factions that remain unaligned (e.g. AAA).
And everyone just knows that AAA is merely waiting for the opportune moment.  :-D

"You're really a good person, aren't you? So, there's no path for you to take here. Go home. This isn't a place for someone like you."
Evangolis
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Reply #36 on: February 10, 2007, 04:06:40 PM

"the guy blowing the whistle is seriously far more of an ass"

I'm not paying the guy who blew the whistle to run an honest game.  And apparently, I haven't been paying CCP to do that, either.

"It was a difficult party" - an unexpected word combination from ex-Merry Prankster and author Robert Stone.
Morat20
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Reply #37 on: February 10, 2007, 04:30:47 PM

"the guy blowing the whistle is seriously far more of an ass"

I'm not paying the guy who blew the whistle to run an honest game.  And apparently, I haven't been paying CCP to do that, either.
No -- but if he's going to bring up CCP's banning of the whistle-blower, he should actually discuss CCP's reasons for it -- as it is, he left the implication that whats-his-face was banned for blowing the whistle.

He was banned for being a persistent forum hacker and -- that his forum hacking fun exposed an instance of Dev abuse (and several other instances of Devs merely playing the game) is incidental. Now, one doesn't have to believe CCP's claims here (although from what I can tell from outside sources, this guy really is a dick and he's been banned before and should have been banned for this too) --- but one should at least have brought them up.

He was writing an article, after all.

Still, I'm a bit surprised by the naive attitude here. The Devs play their game. This is a "good thing". Some playing Devs and some GMs will abuse their authority, their tools, and their access. This is a "bad thing". You're not going to have one without the other, no matter how many steps a company takes to do it.

I don't know if I agree with whatever internal steps CCP took towards t20. I don't know what they were. I am surprised he wasn't fired, but as I've said many times -- I've yet to learn whether he could really be fired.

In the end -- it really doesn't fucking matter. BoB got a few BPOs for some period of time, then lost them. Some corps -- including BoB -- may or may not have gotten insider information that aided them at one point or another. That's all bad.

But practically speaking -- it's not the end of the world. CCP will do whatever the hell they think they need to do, and life will go back to normal until the next Dev with less ethics than coding abilities gets caught with his hand in the cookie jar, in which case this shit will start all over.
tkinnun0
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Reply #38 on: February 10, 2007, 05:34:28 PM

No -- but if he's going to bring up CCP's banning of the whistle-blower, he should actually discuss CCP's reasons for it -- as it is, he left the implication that whats-his-face was banned for blowing the whistle.

Well, he's been at it for quite some time, so banning him just now would seem to imply just that. Also, all he has done is see information he wasn't supposed to see, so what is there in banning him for CCP, except revenge?
Evangolis
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Posts: 1220


Reply #39 on: February 10, 2007, 05:44:24 PM

But practically speaking -- it's not the end of the world. CCP will do whatever the hell they think they need to do, and life will go back to normal until the next Dev with less ethics than coding abilities gets caught with his hand in the cookie jar, in which case this shit will start all over.
It isn't the cheating.  As you say, gonna happen.

It isn't banning the person who revealed the scam.  Yeah, looks like a louse, and my distrust of him kept me skeptical until a source I have more faith in, Joe and The Escapist, presented the story, thus putting their own names on the line.  While I'm not a fanboi for either, I accept that they have integrity at stake, and that makes them believable, where Joe Hobby Hacker is not.

It isn't failing to fire the offender, although I do think it is the only proper action.  It is their company, they can decide how to run it.

But, as we have seen so often, the coverup is worse than the crime.  That is the offense I am truely outraged about.  That wasn't an accident, or a rouge employee.  That was a choice by a company to deceive its customers.  And that is not acceptable to me.  I don't do business with people who cannot be trusted.

For me, it is the end of EVE's world, and probably the last time I will deal with CCP.

"It was a difficult party" - an unexpected word combination from ex-Merry Prankster and author Robert Stone.
ajax34i
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Posts: 2527


Reply #40 on: February 10, 2007, 08:58:44 PM

So what remains to be seen is how many people quit and how many stick around because of this war providing entertainment (I don't mean from F13, but the playerbase in general).
Sparky
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Posts: 805


Reply #41 on: February 15, 2007, 02:28:37 PM

In fact, it's slowly happening now; there's only a few 0.0 factions that remain unaligned (e.g. AAA).
And everyone just knows that AAA is merely waiting for the opportune moment.  :-D

For those keeping count, that moment is now.  They've just declared on MC.  Thoughtfully MC had moved all their cap ships to the other side of the galaxy to bail out FATAL (an LV splinter alliance).
Morat20
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Posts: 18529


Reply #42 on: February 15, 2007, 02:49:56 PM

In fact, it's slowly happening now; there's only a few 0.0 factions that remain unaligned (e.g. AAA).
And everyone just knows that AAA is merely waiting for the opportune moment.  :-D

For those keeping count, that moment is now.  They've just declared on MC.  Thoughtfully MC had moved all their cap ships to the other side of the galaxy to bail out FATAL (an LV splinter alliance).
It's fucking WWI in EVE right now. I need to scrape together some more war supplies to haul to The Forge. I suspect a lot of disposable gear is going to be purchased.

This war is really going to move the money around -- between war dec costs, ship and module losses -- this is going to be felt.
Simond
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Reply #43 on: February 16, 2007, 04:51:59 AM

After a zerg battle, a node crash or three and nigh-infinite lag, LV's Titan-under-construction went bang last night.
Also, BoB is rumoured to be retreating from LV space to defend their own regions.

"You're really a good person, aren't you? So, there's no path for you to take here. Go home. This isn't a place for someone like you."
Slayerik
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Victim: Sirius Maximus


Reply #44 on: February 16, 2007, 07:11:09 AM

In fact, it's slowly happening now; there's only a few 0.0 factions that remain unaligned (e.g. AAA).
And everyone just knows that AAA is merely waiting for the opportune moment.  :-D

For those keeping count, that moment is now.  They've just declared on MC.  Thoughtfully MC had moved all their cap ships to the other side of the galaxy to bail out FATAL (an LV splinter alliance).

Got a front row ticket for this battle, we are the one of the alliances sieging FATAL (who have been bailed out by an LV titan once, a large Outbreak T2 BS gang once, and a huge MC cap fleet once). You think there may be some plans for the new regions involving bob/LV and co? ;) They really want FATAL to hold that ground.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2007, 07:13:37 AM by Slayerik »

"I have more qualifications than Jesus and earn more than this whole board put together.  My ego is huge and my modesty non-existant." -Ironwood
Raging Turtle
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Reply #45 on: February 16, 2007, 07:22:28 AM

« Last Edit: February 16, 2007, 10:04:54 AM by Yoru »
Yoru
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WWW
Reply #46 on: February 16, 2007, 10:05:04 AM

Fixed your link :P
Raging Turtle
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Posts: 1885


Reply #47 on: February 16, 2007, 10:10:22 AM

It worked when I previewed it.  cry
Morat20
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Reply #48 on: February 16, 2007, 11:24:22 AM

Word is D2 just lost their Titan.
Simond
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Reply #49 on: February 16, 2007, 11:27:01 AM

Word is D2 just lost their Titan.
Yup...and in almost exactly the same way as ASCN lost theirs.
Interesting.

"You're really a good person, aren't you? So, there's no path for you to take here. Go home. This isn't a place for someone like you."
ajax34i
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Reply #50 on: February 16, 2007, 11:36:22 AM

Is that the ONLY way to kill a titan?  I don't have the experience, but it seems that the problem is keeping a titan from jumping away long enough to allow its destruction.  Other than removing its pilot via lag, what other ways are there to do that?  Can an alliance completely hunt out or suppress all the possible cyno alts that the titan pilot has access to?

If it's the only way to destroy one, I'm not surprised that they spent time to devise a strategy and train themselves to implement it effectively, repeatedly.  That it's illegal, that doesn't surprise me either.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2007, 11:38:01 AM by ajax34i »
Morat20
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Reply #51 on: February 16, 2007, 11:56:23 AM

Is that the ONLY way to kill a titan?  I don't have the experience, but it seems that the problem is keeping a titan from jumping away long enough to allow its destruction.  Other than removing its pilot via lag, what other ways are there to do that?  Can an alliance completely hunt out or suppress all the possible cyno alts that the titan pilot has access to?

If it's the only way to destroy one, I'm not surprised that they spent time to devise a strategy and train themselves to implement it effectively, repeatedly.  That it's illegal, that doesn't surprise me either.
D2 was, I believe, using their Titan solo which was stupid as shit. You can lay a trap for it -- lure it in with a blob of suicide ships, let the Titan fire it's Doomsday weapon, then have the rest of the gang (Dreads, EW ships, etc) warp to one of the pods -- drop a bubble and pound it. Be tricky, though. Would only work if the Titan was flying solo.

Right now there seems to be a bug with aggression timers and wrecks -- what seems to be happening is the Titan pilot blows up some ships, warps out, sees the timer countdown finish and logs. However, someone is down there shooting wrecks -- which keeps the Titan scannable. When the guy logs, they scan the Titan, jump to it, and destroy it.
Yegolev
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Reply #52 on: February 16, 2007, 12:05:59 PM

Gee, I wonder how someone would figure out a bug like that.

Why am I homeless?  Why do all you motherfuckers need homes is the real question.
They called it The Prayer, its answer was law
Mommy come back 'cause the water's all gone
Morat20
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Posts: 18529


Reply #53 on: February 16, 2007, 12:11:17 PM

Gee, I wonder how someone would figure out a bug like that.
If you PvP enough, I suspect it's not hard to spot. More than BoB knew about it, that's for sure -- when ACSN lost theirs, it was quickly speculated that the BoB had exploited that particular bug.

Assuming it is a bug (I can't think of a gameplay reason aggression timers would work like that, but I might understand the bug wrong).
Ratadm
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Reply #54 on: February 16, 2007, 12:41:00 PM

Most people that read the forums are aware of the shooting wrecks bug.  No clue if that's what actually happened though.
Wolf
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Reply #55 on: February 16, 2007, 12:42:34 PM

Titan is indeed down - http://www.killboard.net/details/130721/. In case the killboard is down: IT HAS T2 FITTING!!?!?

I read through the scrapheap-challenge thread, here's a summary:

1) Titan does not have a kill in the last three days. It is most likely not a wreck exploit.
2) If you have an asset forgotten in empire (shuttle, anchored secure can, etc) that would work as the wreck exploit, so that's one way BoB might have done it.
3) Titan has sat in a POS all by himslef for the past couple of hours. That was why he was alone. No idea why he decided to log off.
4) A quote from the thread:
Quote
[20:11] (Vando): [20:10] (Farjung): He didn't disappear because he was on aggro timer, he was on aggro timer because he was aggroed very shortly before he logged off, that's about the long and short of it
[20:11] (Vando): how?
[20:11] (Farjung): I'm sure it'll be figured out fairly soon, but I'm not going to spoil it

I have immense respect for Farjung. So for now I'm leaning towards the "OMG D2 ARE STUPID BOB HAD A SPY THAT DID SOMETHING TO AGRO THE TITAN!" or something. We'll know soon enough I guess.

ps: if the forum kills my post again I'll need the location of Schild's home.

edit: yeey it went through. Third time was a charm. Ok GalCiv time, I'll let stuff develop and F5 forums later :)
« Last Edit: February 16, 2007, 12:46:10 PM by Wolf »

As a matter of fact I swallowed one of these about two hours ago and the explanation is that it is, in fact, my hand.
Yegolev
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Reply #56 on: February 16, 2007, 12:45:53 PM

To counter my own comment, I can verify that the aggro timer is not to be trusted.

Why am I homeless?  Why do all you motherfuckers need homes is the real question.
They called it The Prayer, its answer was law
Mommy come back 'cause the water's all gone
tazelbain
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tazelbain


Reply #57 on: February 16, 2007, 01:00:56 PM

So EVE expects people with titans to be logged in 24/7.  That's the only way make sure you you aren't raped by that timer.

"Me am play gods"
Yoru
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Reply #58 on: February 16, 2007, 01:15:15 PM

Titans really are pretty much only for the Hardcore, so...

I expect you could also put it inside a POS bubble, eject and go do something else, but that's just asking for the POS to get sieged.
Wolf
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Reply #59 on: February 16, 2007, 01:22:15 PM

http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=477394

It's legit. It was a spy. Ghey, but legit.

Quote
Statement Dusk and Dawn

Today Dē lost an Erebus class Titan.

Because there are still a lot of questions about these recent events, here are some points from our persepective.

The Erebus pilot had planned to log out as he had things to attend to out of game, in order to do this he jumped back from the front line to a more secure system. He had not been involved in any fights or attacks for the three hours prior to this.

It seems that the Erebus was being scouted by a internal Spy who has since been identified. This character was flying a cloaked Anathema Covert Ops frigate. Shortly before the Pilot was going to log off, he uncloaked and used a Passive Targeter to lock the Erebus and fired a single shot on him. Seconds after this, the Titan pilot logged.

So the aggro timer was increased without our pilot noticing.

Minutes after this it was reported that the Titan had not disappeared, so the pilot attempted to log back in.
Unfortunately there was no chance for him to save the Titan, due to a well executed plan by BoB who had jumped in their Capital Fleet and Support.

We always knew it was going to be a dirty war, but once again, Band of Brother prooves, it can always get more dirty.

As a matter of fact I swallowed one of these about two hours ago and the explanation is that it is, in fact, my hand.
Morat20
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Reply #60 on: February 16, 2007, 01:26:03 PM

http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=477394

It's legit. It was a spy. Ghey, but legit.

Quote
Statement Dusk and Dawn

Today Dē lost an Erebus class Titan.

Because there are still a lot of questions about these recent events, here are some points from our persepective.

The Erebus pilot had planned to log out as he had things to attend to out of game, in order to do this he jumped back from the front line to a more secure system. He had not been involved in any fights or attacks for the three hours prior to this.

It seems that the Erebus was being scouted by a internal Spy who has since been identified. This character was flying a cloaked Anathema Covert Ops frigate. Shortly before the Pilot was going to log off, he uncloaked and used a Passive Targeter to lock the Erebus and fired a single shot on him. Seconds after this, the Titan pilot logged.

So the aggro timer was increased without our pilot noticing.

Minutes after this it was reported that the Titan had not disappeared, so the pilot attempted to log back in.
Unfortunately there was no chance for him to save the Titan, due to a well executed plan by BoB who had jumped in their Capital Fleet and Support.

We always knew it was going to be a dirty war, but once again, Band of Brother prooves, it can always get more dirty.
Not gay -- that's how the damn game is supposed to be played. I'm not sure I would have considered that system safe to begin with.
Wolf
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Reply #61 on: February 16, 2007, 01:35:14 PM

I only added the ghey part as a second thought. I'm starting to feel like a BoB fanboi on these forums, being the only guy that defends them... :)

As a matter of fact I swallowed one of these about two hours ago and the explanation is that it is, in fact, my hand.
Morat20
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Posts: 18529


Reply #62 on: February 16, 2007, 01:39:53 PM

I only added the ghey part as a second thought. I'm starting to feel like a BoB fanboi on these forums, being the only guy that defends them... :)
I'll happily defend that. Spying and backstabbing and treachery is why I joined the game. Mostly so I could watch it. :)
Furiously
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WWW
Reply #63 on: February 16, 2007, 01:41:54 PM

Seems like cheap tactics to me.

If they were not online to see the agro message, they should get re-imbursed.

Raging Turtle
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Reply #64 on: February 16, 2007, 01:44:14 PM

Spies and all that are fine, but these seems about as close as you can get to exploiting in-game vs. out of game mechanics without crossing CCP's line.   tongue 
Wolf
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Reply #65 on: February 16, 2007, 01:44:30 PM

2007.02.16 17:58:46 Combat Your Micro Graviton Smartbomb I hits WOTANKN [CE]<D2>(Erebus), doing 15.0 damage.

Titan was killed @ Date :     Fri, 16 Feb 2007 18:07:00

=

9 Minutes. Within aggro range.

Anyway, he was online Furiously. If he logged before the bomb hit him, he wouldn't be on aggro timer and disappear in 2 minutes. That's how I know it at least and that's what the scrapheap guys are saying.


edit: Titan was outside the shields - http://shadowforce.wiredhub.net/bob/2007.02.16.17.58.48.jpg
« Last Edit: February 16, 2007, 01:49:54 PM by Wolf »

As a matter of fact I swallowed one of these about two hours ago and the explanation is that it is, in fact, my hand.
tazelbain
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tazelbain


Reply #66 on: February 16, 2007, 01:48:56 PM

Sorry its lame. It feels too much like the stupidity of Shadowbane and having to guard your city all the time.  And a kill from exploiting a timer, I thought the point of a time stop people from exploiting.

Let people know when it is safe to log out, and let them log out.  It's game not social experiment on how much screw over your players.

"Me am play gods"
Wolf
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Posts: 1248


Reply #67 on: February 16, 2007, 01:55:54 PM

That's one of the reasons I love EVE. The people that _KNOW_ how the game works are actually good at it. And can cause damage to the people that don't.

For reference: The micro smartbombs are considered as one of the most useless modules in the game. That one would think outside the box, the way digi did to come up with that plan is nothing short of amazing. I love the guy.

There are at least 5 things that the Erebus pilot could have done to prevent the current events. That I can think of. Noone made him become a Titan pilot. He most likely volunteered for it. Stuff like this comes with the terriotory - you should be on your toes all the time. If you feel that's too much for you - fly a fucking battleship. Or a Dreadnought.

As a matter of fact I swallowed one of these about two hours ago and the explanation is that it is, in fact, my hand.
Morat20
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Posts: 18529


Reply #68 on: February 16, 2007, 02:00:33 PM

Sorry its lame. It feels too much like the stupidity of Shadowbane and having to guard your city all the time.  And a kill from exploiting a timer, I thought the point of a time stop people from exploiting.

Let people know when it is safe to log out, and let them log out.  It's game not social experiment on how much screw over your players.
It was NOT exploiting a timer. Get that through your head.

Here's what happens:

1) Erebus pilot says to corp "Gonna log off now" and warps to safe spot.
2) Covert Ops ship follows him.
3) Covert Ops ship targets him with a passive targeter -- they're called passive because the target doesn't get the sound-effects or notitifcation he's been targeted that active targeters do.
4) As he's getting ready to log off, Covert Ops ship drops a smartbomb -- which doesn't even register on the Titan's shields (virtually no damage).
5) Titan pilot does not bother to look to see if he's in combat, or his timer has restarted because no one has actively targeted him and there's no one around.
6) Titan Pilot logs out.
7) BoB warps in, kills Titan.

If the Erebus pilot had logged off with his tank running, he might not have lost his Titan. (His corp noted that his ship was still in space after 60 seconds, and he tried to log back in -- found himself down to structure at that point and dead as all shit. With a tank going, he'd probably ahve still been in armor and might have been able to flee -- or at least hold out until reinforcements arrived). If the Erebus pilot had bothered to look at the aggression timer, he'd have seen it happily ticking. He just assumed he was safe and logged out.

Why did he assume he was safe? He'd spent 3 hours inside a POS shield -- no one was seigeing the place. He only notified his corp he was logging out. He didn't think about spies, he didn't think about passive targeters and micro-damage -- and it cost him a Titan.
Krakrok
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Reply #69 on: February 16, 2007, 02:05:33 PM

Lame. That isn't playing the game; that's meta gaming on par with stealing monopoly money when the other player goes to the bathroom. I'm fine up to the point where they kill the guy after he's already logged off.
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